On 11/10/06, Per Jessen wrote:

JJ Gitties wrote:

...

I am migrating to Ubuntu because, the way I see it, if I am going to use an alternative OS to "help the little guy who is trying to make a difference". Then by golly, it better be a "little guy".

There isn't very much about Mark Shuttleworth and his achievements that says "little guy" to me.

...

Once you partner with Microsoft corporation, you are not the poor struggling little guy trying to make that difference anymore.

I think Novell paid USD211million for SUSE - not much "little guy" there either.

Okay. Well you are absolutely right. I think what I really meant was when I say "little guy" is the guy who does not have a 90% monopoly grasp on the OS, browser and application market. -- jjgitties, "*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."

On 11/10/06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* JJ Gitties [11-10-06 13:23]:

...

I am migrating to Ubuntu because, the way I see it, if I am going to use an alternative OS to "help the little guy who is trying to make a difference". Then by golly, it better be a "little guy".

You are just _threatening_, or you would be gone and unsubed.....

Do it or get off the POT!

I am not kidding. My employer is a windows shop. I use linux for mostly network analysis stuff, security scanning and the odd one of non-critical server here and there. I always made them dish out for the boxes for anything that got installed. It's a pittance compared to commerial apps and they really didn't give a hoot, and I think I did my part to help keep SUSE float. The last 10.1 box they bought is the last one they are buying until Microsoft is out of SUSE's hair. It's probably going to be a BSD or some other distro for any future deployments. I also do a bit of consulting on the side. A lot of it is windows work, but every once is a blue moon, there is a little linux and I always pushed SUSE and the customer was happy. Same goes there. I am pushing something else from now on. Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Why in god's bloody name should *any* money that on the surface goes to open source get re-channeled in any way to Microsoft corp. side note: This has nothing to do with me being anti-Microsoft. I make my living from tech support. I persoanlly am too small a fish to make any recommendations to a Microsoft frieldly managers and corporate types at the top. I just do my job and collect my pay. And Microsoft products are just fine to support. They have a great site devoted to helping you support their products properly. It's completely seperate from my Linux fandom. -- jjgitties, "*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."

* Greg Freemyer [11-10-06 18:19]:

You do realize that at least on the surface M$ paid Novell $300M today in order to get $40M tomorrow. I don't know what kind of a stick Novell was holding, but it sure looks like it was bigger than the one M$ was holding.

He's trolling. His sig should get him dropped from the list. Chris, where are you when we need you.......? -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Bruce Marshall [11-10-06 20:26]:

I'd vote for dropping a *(lot* of other people before Greg.... But I guess your mirror is broken.

If you are not following the thread, don't comment. Nothing was directed at Greg. ps: Thanks for the complement :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Joe Morris (NTM) [11-10-06 20:46]:

Please, only send to opensuse@opensuse.org, not to both opensuse@opensuse.org and suse-linux-e@suse.com, since they are now the same list and result in duplicates..

Didn't notice, but looking back, the list headers contained both and mutt's list-reply function added both. Since I know about it now, I will configure mutt to only recognize opensuse@opensuse.org. Thanks for advising. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 11/10/06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

He's trolling. His sig should get him dropped from the list. Chris, where are you when we need you.......?

Nope. I am not trolling. Just bitching. But you are right. There is no point bitching about SUSE. It leads to nowhere. Buy my estimates, I was probably responsible for getting 10 to 15 boxed copies sold per year for about 6 ot 7 years. These are boxed copied that did not have to be sold and could have been easily bypassed by doing FTP installs, or more recently just downlaodnig the ISO's. I will be first to admit, it's not a huge contribution and nothing to write home about. But it was a darn sight more that a lot of other people who leech SUSE and contribute nothing back. I still think I was onto something with the suggestion that if Microsoft turned around and said all the money they collect from Novell on this they will dump it all back into OSS projects, that would generate a lot of good press and good will amongst the community and people would not be so hostile to them off the bat. -- jjgitties, "*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."

* JJ Gitties [11-10-06 17:32]:

I am not kidding.

You are still here! And now you are trolling... -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JJ Gitties wrote:

I am not kidding. My employer is a windows shop. I use linux for mostly network analysis stuff, security scanning and the odd one of non-critical server here and there. I always made them dish out for the boxes for anything that got installed. It's a pittance compared to commerial apps and they really didn't give a hoot, and I think I did my part to help keep SUSE float. The last 10.1 box they bought is the last one they are buying until Microsoft is out of SUSE's hair. It's probably going to be a BSD or some other distro for any future deployments.

I also do a bit of consulting on the side. A lot of it is windows work, but every once is a blue moon, there is a little linux and I always pushed SUSE and the customer was happy. Same goes there. I am pushing something else from now on.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Why in god's bloody name should *any* money that on the surface goes to open source get re-channeled in any way to Microsoft corp.

side note: This has nothing to do with me being anti-Microsoft. I make my living from tech support. I persoanlly am too small a fish to make any recommendations to a Microsoft frieldly managers and corporate types at the top. I just do my job and collect my pay. And Microsoft products are just fine to support. They have a great site devoted to helping you support their products properly. It's completely seperate from my Linux fandom.

So, let me get this right: You liked suse linux, and promoted it. You also do a lot of work on microsoft windows, you use microsoft windows yourself, and you buy software for microsoft windows. Now, because the suits at Novell made an agreement with the suits at microsoft to play nice, you're suddenly against suse linux, you've "had it", you're "dumping suse" etc etc. So it's OK for you to be involved with microsoft - but you don't feel Novell should have the same leeway. I don't know whether to call that hypocrisy or schizophrenia. Joe --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JJ Gitties wrote:

On 11/10/06, *J Sloan* mailto:joe@tmsusa.com> wrote:

You also do a lot of work on microsoft windows, you use microsoft windows yourself, and you buy software for microsoft windows.

I don't quite understand where you are going with this. Yes, I am an IT. I also work on products made by palm, blackberry, 3Com, Cisco, HP e.t.c

I would think it's quite obvious - it's a double standard. Either it's OK to be involved with microsoft, or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

I personally use SUSE as my main work desktop at work. But I also use an XP desktop so I can actually troubleshoot first hand the apps in the OS environment that 99% of the users use. There is no shame in that.

No one at work could care less what I personally use as long as I get the job done. I have also never heard of a place where the IT guy can tell the CIO what the company should buy and what they should deploy.

That means you feel it's OK to be involved with microsoft. So, if you feel you should have the freedom to be involved with microsoft, why do you condemn Novell for dealing with microsoft? Joe --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

That means you feel it's OK to be involved with microsoft. So, if you feel you should have the freedom to be involved with microsoft, why do you condemn Novell for dealing with microsoft?

We used to run NetWare and ZENworks but like everyone else in the industry we migrated away from NetWare becuase Novell are run but a bunch of idiots who like to screw over their best products.

jjgitties,

"*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."

JJ, you're not answering Sloan's question. He asked cause you're being double standart. You accept using windows for a living, but you wont allow Novell get more money from MS... -- Arie Reynaldi Zanahar reymanx at gmail.com http://www.reynaldi.or.id --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 11/10/06, JJ Gitties wrote:

On 11/10/06, Arie Reynaldi Z wrote:

...

JJ, you're not answering Sloan's question. He asked cause you're being double standart. You accept using windows for a living, but you wont allow Novell get more money from MS...

Ohh. Now I see what you are asking. What do I care how the money goes to Microsoft? Because this is different. Perhaps if it was a different company involved it would not matter.

Sorry. I want to add. It's like this, i i hope my bad writing makes sense. I like the idea of thinking, well I am going out of my way to make sure x number of copies get purchased becuase I know that that money goes to the distro and supposedly help to ensure that that distro continues to be worked on and released. With this change now, some of that money goes to ensure the distor, some of the money goes to ensure the next version of MS SQL and MS Project get made.

From my point of view, the MS products do not need any helping hand in any way.

I guess if we knew exactly how much money from the boxed sales goes to MS, it might put things in perspective. Are we talking a couple of cents or 40% of the sale? -- jjgitties, "*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."

On 11/10/06, John Andersen wrote:

On Friday 10 November 2006 19:29, Arie Reynaldi Z wrote:

...

JJ, you're not answering Sloan's question. He asked cause you're being double standart. You accept using windows for a living, but you wont allow Novell get more money from MS...

Wake up. Its not about the money.

You are absolutely right. It's not about the money. I about the principle. Money from the sale of open source is going to a company that is not contibuting to open source. And not only that, they seem hostile and completely against open source. I went to a MS seminar for IT guys not even a year ago at a MS office. It was supposed to be about "the future of the OS". I went hoping to hear something about what to expect with Vista and what new innovations they are forseeing in the OS's in the future. Anyways, the whole thing turned out to be a big waste of my time. It was a glorified "Get The Facts" seminar where they MS guys proceeded to try to convince everyone in the audience that Linux and open source is a joke. It's a flawed system and anyone who deploys it is crazy. And now they are taking a cut of SUSE sales. -- jjgitties, "*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."

On Friday 10 November 2006 20:17, JJ Gitties wrote:

On 11/10/06, J Sloan wrote:

...

I would think it's quite obvious - it's a double standard. Either it's OK to be involved with microsoft, or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

Are you saying that if you use SUSE or Linux, then you are automatically against Microsoft? Total horse rubbish. Using Linux or SUSE does not automatically make you anything other than a Linux of SUSE user. It has nothing to do with advocacy or anti-Microsoft campaining. Being anti-Microsoft has nothing to do with your prefered OS. For example, some scientists is universities use *nix because they have specialty apps they run that only are made for the Unix environment.

Agreed! I advocate Linux on a daily basis while managing a team supporting mostly MS-based solutions. Though Wintendo is a poor choice for a desktop OS, and an even poorer choice for a server product, the reality is that many companies still have it and are VERY reluctant to let it go. While going over our fiscal '07/08 budget yesterday, I had to concede that close to $50K of my $1.7M budget was going to be headed to replacement Windows systems. Did i like it? No. Am I working to change it? Yes.

...

I personally use SUSE as my main work desktop at work. But I also use an

...

XP desktop so I can actually troubleshoot first hand the apps in the OS environment that 99% of the users use. There is no shame in that.

No one at work could care less what I personally use as long as I get the job done. I have also never heard of a place where the IT guy can tell the CIO what the company should buy and what they should deploy.

That means you feel it's OK to be involved with microsoft. So, if you feel you should have the freedom to be involved with microsoft, why do you condemn Novell for dealing with microsoft?

You will be very hard pressed to find a job in IT these days, and if you decide to filter out everyone except Linux only companies, you are in for a real, real REAL long job hunt (At least here in North America. I can't speak for EU, but I bet you have better chances working is a SUSE only shop in Germany). Most really large companies are windows shops or a mix with a small linux component. I think academia are the only guys that have major *nix deployments and most of those guys use BSD I think.

Exactly. I can be a Linux Zealot and be out of work, or I can be a little flexible and support my family.

Anyways, there is a really good reason why the companies are windows shops and it has nothing to do with loving Microsoft or hating Linux. Is has to do with apps. Most everyday joe staff are windows users at home and they like to use windows and MS office in the workplace. A lot of companies run managed systems so you don't have IT guys walking around manually installing apps and patches like monkeys all day long. Centrally managing and deploying apps and patches and configs is a big deal for them. and what better way to deploy windows apps and configs to windows OS's than to use a windows backend (i.e. windows server and AD).

We used to run NetWare and ZENworks but like everyone else in the industry we migrated away from NetWare becuase Novell are run but a bunch of idiots who like to screw over their best products.

Funny, I just found out that my retirement association is running eDirectory and has no plans to ever go to AD. Meanwhile, my department is working overtime to migrate from domains to AD. Sigh... Well written post, thanks!! -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 10 November 2006 18:40, J Sloan wrote:

I would think it's quite obvious - it's a double standard. Either it's OK to be involved with microsoft, or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

Sure he can. Who appointed you king? One can be involved in microsoft in the paid software world and be disinclined to be involved with microsoft in the free software world. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Friday 10 November 2006 23:56, John Andersen wrote:

On Friday 10 November 2006 18:40, J Sloan wrote:

...

I would think it's quite obvious - it's a double standard. Either it's OK to be involved with microsoft, or it's not. You can't have it both ways.

Sure he can. Who appointed you king?

One can be involved in microsoft in the paid software world and be disinclined to be involved with microsoft in the free software world.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

I think what most of us are thinking and trying to say is that it is entirely hypocritical on his point. Its OK for him to make a living and earn money from having to deal with windows, but because Novell has to do the same thing, he is saying its wrong. It IS exactly the same thing. Just because Novell is larger does not mean it was not looking at its finacial future and realizing that it had to do this to make it through a hard point. We are not saying that he is evil for dealing with Microsoft. We are saying that he is being hypocritical by holding others to standards that he himself does not feel. And he is perfectly allowed to feel that way, BUT, it definitely lets us know exactly where he is coming from. Michael --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Greg Wallace wrote:

Well, there's having to make a living and having an opinion about something used where you work, and they may be different.

So, Novell doesn't have to make a living too? J --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 10 November 2006 17:10, JJ Gitties wrote:

I also do a bit of consulting on the side. A lot of it is windows work, but every once is a blue moon, there is a little linux and I always pushed SUSE and the customer was happy. Same goes there. I am pushing something else from now on.

Can we let up on the HTML mail, puleez --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Bruce Marshall [11-10-06 17:43]:

I have had kubuntu running on my lab rat (a 90 degree turn to my right) for the past 3 days and probably it will take me a week to fully test things and move over to it.

If you are going, DO IT. This list is for the discussion of SUSE, not inclinations/intentions of moving to k/ubuntuu. If that is your wish, good luck and BE GONE. GESH! -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2006-11-10 at 19:27 -0500, Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Friday 10 November 2006 18:15, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Bruce Marshall [11-10-06 17:43]:

...

I have had kubuntu running on my lab rat (a 90 degree turn to my right) for the past 3 days and probably it will take me a week to fully test things and move over to it.

If you are going, DO IT. This list is for the discussion of SUSE, not inclinations/intentions of moving to k/ubuntuu. If that is your wish, good luck and BE GONE.

GESH!

Well gee, thanks for making me not miss this list at all....

And that thought started about two years ago, long before I ever thought of leaving SuSE.

I guess you have spoken!

Sorry Bruce, this is not aimed at you. What's up with all of the email from the folks that were shoved here from [SLE], it seems we are now not only getting a huge increase in volume on [opensuse] but also now getting double posts from [SLE] members. Can something be done to fix this? -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Steve Jeppesen [11-10-06 13:23]:

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 03:30:25 -0500 Fred A. Miller wrote:

yes he did. Your point? -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org