Will Yast in Suse 8.2 ruin my system like on 8.1?
Hi: I am considering switching distributions to Debian or something that is more obedient and less pseudo-intelligent than Suse. I had horrible headaches with 8.1, that are still causing me trouble today after almost a year, since my wife just tried to install a new version of gaim. She clicked the downloaded RPM in Konq., got a button that said "Install with Yast" and when she clicked that and put in the root pw, Yast stupidly installed the gaim package from the installation CDs, not the downloaded one, AND Yast installed Suse's useless non-working mplayer on top of the vanilla mplayer that my wife spent hours figuring out how to compile by herself so she could play Windows media which the Suse mplayer cannot do. This same behavior was dealt with regarding Mozilla, since the Mozilla that came with Suse couldn't do Java, but trying to install the vanilla Mozilla that works resulted in a dependency battle with Yast, which tries to reinstall Mozilla every time we try to use Yast to install software. I generally use the CLI for this stuff, since I know Yast is stupid. Hopefully now my wife will have learned her lesson as well. Trouble is, when the distribution does this kind of stuff, it makes me unable to trust it in a very fundamental way. How can I be sure that ANY time I run Yast, it won't try to bludgeon my system with its unintelligence? I simply don't know, that is the answer. The point of this is that, I wonder if you can assure me that Suse 8.2 is any better, or will I go through the same frustration of finding that Suse did something to break most of the useful software, so I will want to upgrade it to the vanilla stuff on the net, then find myself in a battle with dependencies and Yast trying to reinstall things all the time? I simply cannot tolerate this behavior any longer. -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
* Chris Carlen
I simply cannot tolerate this behavior any longer.
Yast only does what you tell it. Perhaps a few minutes learning the configuration and operation of Yast would be beneficial. gud luk, -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org
On Saturday 21 June 2003 9:20 am, Chris Carlen wrote:
Hi:
I am considering switching distributions to Debian or something that is more obedient and less pseudo-intelligent than Suse. [...] The point of this is that, I wonder if you can assure me that Suse 8.2 is any better, or will I go through the same frustration of finding that Suse did something to break most of the useful software, so I will want to upgrade it to the vanilla stuff on the net, then find myself in a battle with dependencies and Yast trying to reinstall things all the time?
Something I've heard mention from time to time is a script called "checkinstall" or similar -- you would use this instead of the usual "make install" step of a "vanilla" installation, and it's purpose is to include it in the RPM database as an "installed" application -- this /may/ reduce the dependancy battle (I don't know for sure because I haven't installed a "vanilla" package yet...) Check the archives for similar items [or perhaps someone will chime in with details/corrections?] -- Yet another Blog: http://osnut.homelinux.net
The 03.06.21 at 09:40, Tom Emerson wrote:
Something I've heard mention from time to time is a script called "checkinstall" or similar -- you would use this instead of the usual "make install" step of a "vanilla" installation, and it's purpose is to include it in the RPM database as an "installed" application -- this /may/ reduce the dependancy battle
It does. I don't have any issues with yast installing vainilla sources I compile myself. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
Well having spend far to much time converting my notebook/test system to Debian Sid from Libranet 2.7 because I didn't want to pay another $50 to for Libernet 2.8, I would have to say that Debian may have a great package manager but other things are weird. The tangle of scripts that sets up networking and a PC Card Wi-Fi makes me want to cry right now. The whole apt-get, dpkg system is stricter than Yast2 and RPM on doing it their way. Debian just as dependant on tools to install things as is SuSE. The problem is if there is something that goes wrong there isn't a second lines of tools to fix things like there is in Yast2. So you are left to Goole and reverse engineering the scripts to run down what went wrong. If you truly want a system that says out of your way then Slackware is probably your best bet. I haven't had on my PC for more than a few days at a time. The setup doesn't seem to have as many convoluted scripts doing things. You get a tarball and a text editor, yea it does have a package system but it is fairly basic. If you are serious about ditching the tools download a Slackware ISO and give that a try. I think that you will be back for SuSE in a couple of months but you will have better skills at making SuSE work when thinks go wrong. Just when I think that Linux may be ready for the desktop you run in to some snag and realize that if Linux works at all it is amazing for a project of a thousand separate programs written by thousands of people who have never met in one place at one time. Oh Well maybe SuSE 10 will be ready for the Window users, that should be a couple of years down the road. pben On Saturday 21 June 2003 11:20 am, Chris Carlen wrote:
Hi:
I am considering switching distributions to Debian or something that is more obedient and less pseudo-intelligent than Suse. I had horrible headaches with 8.1, that are still causing me trouble today after almost a year, since my wife just tried to install a new version of gaim.
She clicked the downloaded RPM in Konq., got a button that said "Install with Yast" and when she clicked that and put in the root pw, Yast stupidly installed the gaim package from the installation CDs, not the downloaded one, AND Yast installed Suse's useless non-working mplayer on top of the vanilla mplayer that my wife spent hours figuring out how to compile by herself so she could play Windows media which the Suse mplayer cannot do.
This same behavior was dealt with regarding Mozilla, since the Mozilla that came with Suse couldn't do Java, but trying to install the vanilla Mozilla that works resulted in a dependency battle with Yast, which tries to reinstall Mozilla every time we try to use Yast to install software.
I generally use the CLI for this stuff, since I know Yast is stupid. Hopefully now my wife will have learned her lesson as well.
Trouble is, when the distribution does this kind of stuff, it makes me unable to trust it in a very fundamental way. How can I be sure that ANY time I run Yast, it won't try to bludgeon my system with its unintelligence? I simply don't know, that is the answer.
The point of this is that, I wonder if you can assure me that Suse 8.2 is any better, or will I go through the same frustration of finding that Suse did something to break most of the useful software, so I will want to upgrade it to the vanilla stuff on the net, then find myself in a battle with dependencies and Yast trying to reinstall things all the time?
I simply cannot tolerate this behavior any longer.
-- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
Paul Benjamin wrote:
Well having spend far to much time converting my notebook/test system to Debian Sid from Libranet 2.7 because I didn't want to pay another $50 to for Libernet 2.8, I would have to say that Debian may have a great package manager but other things are weird. The tangle of scripts that sets up networking and a PC Card Wi-Fi makes me want to cry right now. The whole apt-get, dpkg system is stricter than Yast2 and RPM on doing it their way. Debian just as dependant on tools to install things as is SuSE. The problem is if there is something that goes wrong there isn't a second lines of tools to fix things like there is in Yast2. So you are left to Goole and reverse engineering the scripts to run down what went wrong.
Interesting perspective. I wonder if pure Debian is much differenet from Libranet.
If you truly want a system that says out of your way then Slackware is probably your best bet. I haven't had on my PC for more than a few days at a time. The setup doesn't seem to have as many convoluted scripts doing things. You get a tarball and a text editor, yea it does have a package system but it is fairly basic. If you are serious about ditching the tools download a Slackware ISO and give that a try.
I think that you will be back for SuSE in a couple of months but you will have better skills at making SuSE work when thinks go wrong. Just when I think that Linux may be ready for the desktop you run in to some snag and realize that if Linux works at all it is amazing for a project of a thousand separate programs written by thousands of people who have never met in one place at one time. Oh Well maybe SuSE 10 will be ready for the Window users, that should be a couple of years down the road.
I ran Slackware for about 5 years from the kernel 1.0.x days. I have been at this for a pretty long time. In those days I had to wade through HOWTOs just to get delete and backspace, and home and end keys to work. Actually I liked Slackware. I changed to Suse because as I began to use Linux more in my profession as a desktop OS, I just didn't want to have to waste countless hours anymore figuring out how to configure things. I'm all for choice, but it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a sensible default configuration. Perhaps it would be better to figure out what some of the other folks who responded meant by their comments which seem to imply that it is possible to have Yast *not* do the things I am complaining about. Thanks for the input. Good day! -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
On Saturday 21 June 2003 11:08, Chris Carlen wrote:
Actually I liked Slackware. I changed to Suse because as I began to use Linux more in my profession as a desktop OS, I just didn't want to have to waste countless hours anymore figuring out how to configure things. I'm all for choice, but it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a sensible default configuration.
Your expierence is the "Linux Expierence" (tm) boiled down to its essentials. Many linux users get involved this way - and its a good way to build understanding. I took a two year tour of distros (and a few BSDs and BeOSs too) and finally ended up on SuSE. I think I missed Yellow Dog but I did all the other well known distros. 8.2 is the cleanest of all the SuSE's I've run (started with 7.1) and by far the most laptop friendly. I just have not got time to be in RPM Hell anymore, I've got things to do with the computer besides running an operating system. I install the minimum "vanilla" packages - usually only when a properly integrated one is not available from SuSE, and in those cases, I uninstall the equivelent SuSE package, and install tarballs via checkinstall so the RPM databass knows that the package is there and does not try to over-ride it. For work machines, unless you have totally wierd hardware, any benifites you think you will derive from building your own kernel are (98% of the time) largely in your head. For play machines, hey, go nuts, - but don't complain to SuSE. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
On Saturday 21 June 2003 12:20, Chris Carlen wrote:
Hi:
I am considering switching distributions to Debian or something that is more obedient and less pseudo-intelligent than Suse. I had horrible headaches with 8.1, that are still causing me trouble today after almost a year, since my wife just tried to install a new version of gaim. (snip) The point of this is that, I wonder if you can assure me that Suse 8.2 is any better, or will I go through the same frustration of finding that Suse did something to break most of the useful software, so I will want to upgrade it to the vanilla stuff on the net, then find myself in a battle with dependencies and Yast trying to reinstall things all the time?
I simply cannot tolerate this behavior any longer.
Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19 ==================
Chris, In one sentence, yes you can be assured these bugs are fixed in 8.2! Patrick -- --- KMail v1.5.2 --- SuSE Linux Pro v8.2 --- Registered Linux User #225206 On any other day, that might seem strange...
On Sat June 21 2003 11:20 am, Chris Carlen wrote:
Hi:
I simply cannot tolerate this behavior any longer. -- _____________________ Christopher R. Carlen crobc@earthlink.net Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19
The behavior you describe with RMPs, Konqueror and YaST in 8.1 has been fixed in 8.2. YaST now loads the newer RPM via Konqueror (as you expected it should in 8.1 but didn't unless you knew to hit cancel instead of yes). It is noted in the Software, Install&Remove Software section of YaST where the version on the install source is shown as Available Version along with the Installed Version as loaded by the user or via YOU. These newer or user added RPMs are flagged with a lock symbol so that YaST in 8.2 will not try to install the version from the distribution source as YaST in 8.1 does. Stan
Op zaterdag 21 juni 2003 18:20, schreef Chris Carlen:
She clicked the downloaded RPM in Konq., got a button that said "Install with Yast" and when she clicked that and put in the root pw, Yast stupidly installed the gaim package from the installation CDs, not the downloaded one, AND Yast installed Suse's useless non-working mplayer on top of the vanilla mplayer that my wife spent hours figuring out how to compile by herself so she could play Windows media which the Suse mplayer cannot do. The GAIM thing indeed seems to be a bug, but the MPlayer thing is impossible. If it is manually installed, it is put in '/usr/local' which never gets touched in any way by Yast.
This same behavior was dealt with regarding Mozilla, since the Mozilla that came with Suse couldn't do Java, but trying to install the vanilla Mozilla that works resulted in a dependency battle with Yast, which tries to reinstall Mozilla every time we try to use Yast to install software. The version of Mozilla that comes with SuSE just needs an updated Java, which has been availlable from Blackdown for a long time. This was only a problem in the first weeks after SuSE 8.1 was released.
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participants (9)
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BandiPat -
Carlos E. R. -
Chris Carlen -
John Andersen -
Patrick Shanahan -
Paul Benjamin -
Stan Glasoe -
Tom Emerson -
Z_God