[opensuse] A 16TB hard disk drive is on sale for far less than you'd think
A 16TB hard disk drive is on sale for far less than you'd think 16TB HDD for just over $400 <https://www.techradar.com/news/a-16tb-hard-disk-drive-is-on-sale-for-far-less-than-youd-think> Storage giant Seagate unveiled two new hard disk drives with a 16TB capacity earlier this year and for once, it was not all about data centers. The Exos X16 and the IronWolf/IronWolf Pro targeted two different audiences (data center for the first and NAS users for the second) and feature SATA or SAS interface only for the first one and SATA only for the second model. Provantage is selling the _Exos_ <https://www.provantage.com/seagate-st16000nm001g~7SEGE1K1.htm> (ST16000NM001G) for just over $400 while the _IronWolf_ <https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-IronWolf-16TB-256Mb-7200Rpm/dp/B07SNW9W48/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=ST16000VN001&qid=1577548964&sr=8-2> one (ST16000VN001) retails for just under $500 from Amazon. Both have nine platters, use Helium technology and have a five year warranty (the IronWolf has three); they also share the s same spinning speed (7200RPM), idle power (5W), average latency (4.16ms) and cache (256MB). The Exos range carries a MTBF (mean time before failures) at 2.5M hours and boasts a higher sustained transfer rate at 261MBps; the IronWolf Pro and the IronWolf reach 250 and 210MBps respectively. Note that the IronWolf Pro also comes with bundled Rescue Services, great for data recovery. * These are the best cloud storage <https://www.techradar.com/news/the-best-cloud-storage> of 2020, great to save your files online. * We also compiled the list of best cloud backup services <https://www.techradar.com/best/best-cloud-backup> * It is advisable that you keep a local copy of your files, so check out our best NAS <https://www.techradar.com/news/the-10-best-nas-devices-reviewed> Toshiba announced the 16TB _MG08_ <https://www.techradar.com/news/toshiba-unveils-new-16tb-enterprise-capacity-hdd> series in January 2019 but we have yet to see any stock in the channel. Western Digital also shipped its first 16TB hard disk drives as well but based on MAMR rather than HAMR technology - as used by Seagate. While SSD prices have been falling, they are still far more expensive than their hard disk drive counterparts. At about $2800, Micron’s 9300 Pro <https://www.connection.com/product/micron-15.36tb-9300-pro-pcie-gen3-x4-nvme-u.2-2.5-internal-solid-state-drive/mtfdhal15t3tdp-1at1zabyy/36887660> is nearly *SEVEN* times more expensive although this gap has all but disappeared for sub-1TB capacities. * _Cloud storage vs external hard disk drive: which one is better?_ <https://www.techradar.com/news/cloud-storage-vs-external-hard-disk-drive-which-one-is-better> *Source: https://www.techradar.com/news/a-16tb-hard-disk-drive-is-on-sale-for-far-les... ================================================================================ <AJA> I see mention that the gap between HDD and SSD prices has "all but disappered for sub-1TB capacities" which is interesting. The basic Linux OS as a healthy instlation can fit on under 500MB never mind 500GB, probably less. Let's not forget that memory is cheap and you probably can manage without swap unless you are doing something intense like photediting. Short of and EMP (and even then it's questionable) from various sources (and then there's the issue of how concerned with your digital memories will you be in the aftermath?) that might leave magnetic memory intact but erase (unsheilded) semiconductor memory ... No, wait! My current generation Dell box is heavily RF shlded. It's far removed from some of the 'white box from Tiawan' PCs chassis I have in my basement in this regard. Not that my neighbours ever complained about my PC (or, in times past, my radio HAM equipment) interfering with their TV (whihc was probably cable anyway). So I wonder how well sheilded our compters are? How easy it is to do? Is the present RF protection adequate? https://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html https://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1219/p25s02-stct.html </AJAJ> -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2019-12-31 08:37 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
use Helium technology
I was working with helium filled drives back in the late '70s. These were head per track drives that were used for overlays, back in the days before virtual memory or memory mapping. These drives were 1 or 2 MB, IIRC. Later models of the computer supported memory mapping and dynamic RAM, so the overlays were no longer needed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 31/12/2019 14.37, Anton Aylward wrote:
A 16TB hard disk drive is on sale for far less than you'd think 16TB HDD for just over $400
Interesting, if it means 8T will drop in price ;-) ...
I see mention that the gap between HDD and SSD prices has "all but disappered for sub-1TB capacities" which is interesting.
The basic Linux OS as a healthy instlation can fit on under 500MB never mind 500GB, probably less. Let's not forget that memory is cheap and you probably can manage without swap unless you are doing something intense like photediting.
Depends what you call cheap. My current motherboard only admits 8 GiB, and I end using 6 GiB of swap after a few days easily. I have a new motherboard waiting for memory purchase: 64GiB is 359€ to 919€. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgtZRQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1Y8DAJwJzL0zl7z+pldbl2cg/LnF7RYlDgCgir1KxDs9pHm8eL4ngsa7qBy2Epo= =F/av -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 31/12/2019 09:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14.37, Anton Aylward wrote:
A 16TB hard disk drive is on sale for far less than you'd think 16TB HDD for just over $400
Interesting, if it means 8T will drop in price ;-)
...
I see mention that the gap between HDD and SSD prices has "all but disappered for sub-1TB capacities" which is interesting.
The basic Linux OS as a healthy instlation can fit on under 500MB never mind 500GB, probably less. Let's not forget that memory is cheap and you probably can manage without swap unless you are doing something intense like photediting.
Depends what you call cheap.
My current motherboard only admits 8 GiB, and I end using 6 GiB of swap after a few days easily. I have a new motherboard waiting for memory purchase: 64GiB is 359€ to 919€.
OK so 'cheap' is relative. I see the price of PC, PC-100, DDR, DDR2, DDR3 memory at Egg and on eBay. As technology progresses it gets cheaper. And motherboards accommodate more, so you might argue costs stay the same ... My Optiplex 755 now has 8G and it's been a long time since it swapped. It takes a fair bit of intense photediting to make that happen. In reality, a SSD on swap might not help that much, it need better, faster rendering. I'd be better off getting a more powerful/faster/morememnory graphics accelerating card than a SD. it's not that photoediting isn't cpu and memory intensive, it's that having a good rendering engine counts for a lot, takes a load off the CPU and memory. Provided your software knows how to use it. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 31/12/2019 16.16, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 31/12/2019 09:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14.37, Anton Aylward wrote:
A 16TB hard disk drive is on sale for far less than you'd think 16TB HDD for just over $400
Interesting, if it means 8T will drop in price ;-)
...
I see mention that the gap between HDD and SSD prices has "all but disappered for sub-1TB capacities" which is interesting.
The basic Linux OS as a healthy instlation can fit on under 500MB never mind 500GB, probably less. Let's not forget that memory is cheap and you probably can manage without swap unless you are doing something intense like photediting.
Depends what you call cheap.
My current motherboard only admits 8 GiB, and I end using 6 GiB of swap after a few days easily. I have a new motherboard waiting for memory purchase: 64GiB is 359€ to 919€.
None of the "cheap" are in stock. The first entry is 769€. And I forgot to consider the buss frequency.
OK so 'cheap' is relative.
I see the price of PC, PC-100, DDR, DDR2, DDR3 memory at Egg and on eBay. As technology progresses it gets cheaper. And motherboards accommodate more, so you might argue costs stay the same ...
Right. And if I want the board to last 10 years as the previous one did, I have to max the ram. Several of the ram offering have led lights that blink in complex patterns that can be programmed. Wow. Why on earth would anybody want that? I must be getting old.
My Optiplex 755 now has 8G and it's been a long time since it swapped. It takes a fair bit of intense photediting to make that happen. In reality, a SSD on swap might not help that much, it need better, faster rendering. I'd be better off getting a more powerful/faster/morememnory graphics accelerating card than a SD. it's not that photoediting isn't cpu and memory intensive, it's that having a good rendering engine counts for a lot, takes a load off the CPU and memory. Provided your software knows how to use it.
You do not need photo editing to eat the memory. Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows) and Libreoffice (with a few calc sheets and documents). Then, perhaps open shotwell to search, not edit, for a photo. Open another firefox profile or two. Perhaps a java application that controls the TV. The antivirus daemon, the antispam daemon... Then use them for two days. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgufpwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1e7IAJ99m/FvNQnB1/nxq+u6qQ8srO3+vwCeIe9PvxCX9nuGqessTNaMri0iG9Q= =xkBS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-31-19 14:22]: [...]
You do not need photo editing to eat the memory.
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows) and Libreoffice (with a few calc sheets and documents). Then, perhaps open shotwell to search, not edit, for a photo. Open another firefox profile or two. Perhaps a java application that controls the TV. The antivirus daemon, the antispam daemon... Then use them for two days.
I have 30 ff windows each with 8-15 tabs and no swap and no system "lags" but do have 36GB memory CPU: 6-Core Intel Core i7 970 (-MT MCP-) speed/min/max: 2251/1596/3193 MHz Kernel: 5.3.12-2-default x86_64 Up: 14:27:15 up 3 days 1:34, 40 users, load average: 0.86, 2.15, 2.03 Mem: 15451.6/36080.0 MiB (42.8%) Storage: 10.60 TiB (22.9% used) Procs: 505 Shell: bash 5.0.11 inxi: 3.0.32 box is ~9 years old iirc and no where near retirement. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 31/12/2019 20.30, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [12-31-19 14:22]: [...]
You do not need photo editing to eat the memory.
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows) and Libreoffice (with a few calc sheets and documents). Then, perhaps open shotwell to search, not edit, for a photo. Open another firefox profile or two. Perhaps a java application that controls the TV. The antivirus daemon, the antispam daemon... Then use them for two days.
I have 30 ff windows each with 8-15 tabs and no swap and no system "lags" but do have 36GB memory
Well, there you go, you have 36 GiB of RAM. I have 8. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgujFQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1WgAAJ4tRf+nRedI/L5geZMBAwFaY6d1HwCfdFjBel5t1m05XjwK5o1wRgldhjU= =rnPb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2019-12-31 20:21 (UTC+0100):
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows...> another firefox profile or two.
I do not get why so often people complain about Mozilla RAM consumption. http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Moz/ffcarlos20191231.jpg 35% of 16G RAM consumed by system & apps (not cache) in over 14.5 days uptime SeaMonkey PID 1682 started 20191226.2033 browser window with 34 tabs CZ window with 16 tabs Firefox PID 1908 started 20191226.2033 browser window with 64 tabs history window SeaMonkey PID 21549 restarted 20191231.0015 browser window with >200 tabs (possibly 300-400?) email window with accounts going back to 2003 Newmoon PID 26428 started 20191227.1834 with 26 tabs -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 31/12/2019 21.16, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2019-12-31 20:21 (UTC+0100):
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows...> another firefox profile or two.
I do not get why so often people complain about Mozilla RAM consumption.
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D My machine was rebooted today, so there is not much now.
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR SWAP S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6264 cer 20 0 3955556 1,076g 99104 0 S 0,000 13,82 7:30.19 thunderbird-bin 14282 cer 20 0 2614720 709200 42476 0 S 0,000 8,690 7:07.73 shotwell 8857 cer 20 0 3518996 495620 199948 0 S 0,893 6,073 4:15.57 firefox 9064 cer 20 0 2961180 300856 100096 0 S 0,000 3,686 0:43.34 Web Content 9040 cer 20 0 2985700 243320 106748 0 S 0,298 2,981 0:39.25 Web Content 5390 cer 39 19 887344 219348 8136 0 S 0,000 2,688 0:29.63 tracker-miner-f 9015 cer 20 0 2792968 209928 82548 0 S 0,000 2,572 0:10.42 Web Content 21830 cer 20 0 2710312 195640 141988 0 S 0,595 2,397 0:24.40 Web Content 8997 cer 20 0 2825608 187920 104180 0 S 0,000 2,303 4:24.85 Web Content 8959 cer 20 0 2731372 163388 89816 0 S 0,000 2,002 0:09.71 Web Content 9112 cer 20 0 2795764 162056 67328 0 S 0,000 1,986 0:19.80 Web Content
Just add up each "Web Content" of the RES column, and the master "firefox" entry line. 495620+300856+243320+209928+195640+187920+163388+162056=1958728 Almost two gigabytes. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXguuwAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1XDDAKCLvtMjJh6tBSgHAIRCe/Hzen1osACgkfKeKAZv/H/G7xetyUhXZkfy+uY= =P5/f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 21:25:38 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 31/12/2019 21.16, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2019-12-31 20:21 (UTC+0100):
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows...> another firefox profile or two.
I do not get why so often people complain about Mozilla RAM consumption.
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
My machine was rebooted today, so there is not much now.
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR SWAP S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6264 cer 20 0 3955556 1,076g 99104 0 S 0,000 13,82 7:30.19 thunderbird-bin 14282 cer 20 0 2614720 709200 42476 0 S 0,000 8,690 7:07.73 shotwell 8857 cer 20 0 3518996 495620 199948 0 S 0,893 6,073 4:15.57 firefox 9064 cer 20 0 2961180 300856 100096 0 S 0,000 3,686 0:43.34 Web Content 9040 cer 20 0 2985700 243320 106748 0 S 0,298 2,981 0:39.25 Web Content 5390 cer 39 19 887344 219348 8136 0 S 0,000 2,688 0:29.63 tracker-miner-f 9015 cer 20 0 2792968 209928 82548 0 S 0,000 2,572 0:10.42 Web Content 21830 cer 20 0 2710312 195640 141988 0 S 0,595 2,397 0:24.40 Web Content 8997 cer 20 0 2825608 187920 104180 0 S 0,000 2,303 4:24.85 Web Content 8959 cer 20 0 2731372 163388 89816 0 S 0,000 2,002 0:09.71 Web Content 9112 cer 20 0 2795764 162056 67328 0 S 0,000 1,986 0:19.80 Web Content
Just add up each "Web Content" of the RES column, and the master "firefox" entry line.
Don't forget Web Extensions :) If you run any privacy products ...
495620+300856+243320+209928+195640+187920+163388+162056=1958728
Almost two gigabytes.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXguuwAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1XDDAKCLvtMjJh6tBSgHAIRCe/Hzen1osACgkfKeKAZv/H/G7xetyUhXZkfy+uY= =P5/f -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Carlos E. R. composed on 2019-12-31 21:25 (UTC+0100):
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR SWAP S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6264 cer 20 0 3955556 1,076g 99104 0 S 0,000 13,82 7:30.19 thunderbird-bin 14282 cer 20 0 2614720 709200 42476 0 S 0,000 8,690 7:07.73 shotwell 8857 cer 20 0 3518996 495620 199948 0 S 0,893 6,073 4:15.57 firefox 9064 cer 20 0 2961180 300856 100096 0 S 0,000 3,686 0:43.34 Web Content 9040 cer 20 0 2985700 243320 106748 0 S 0,298 2,981 0:39.25 Web Content 5390 cer 39 19 887344 219348 8136 0 S 0,000 2,688 0:29.63 tracker-miner-f 9015 cer 20 0 2792968 209928 82548 0 S 0,000 2,572 0:10.42 Web Content 21830 cer 20 0 2710312 195640 141988 0 S 0,595 2,397 0:24.40 Web Content 8997 cer 20 0 2825608 187920 104180 0 S 0,000 2,303 4:24.85 Web Content 8959 cer 20 0 2731372 163388 89816 0 S 0,000 2,002 0:09.71 Web Content 9112 cer 20 0 2795764 162056 67328 0 S 0,000 1,986 0:19.80 Web Content
I can't make any sense out of a multi-line-wrapped mess like that.
Just add up each "Web Content" of the RES column, and the master "firefox" entry line.
495620+300856+243320+209928+195640+187920+163388+162056=1958728
Almost two gigabytes.
How many mozilla app instances is that? How many tabs? How many windows? How old is the history? What's being compared to what? I listed 300 or more tabs across 7 windows from 4 app PIDs up to 112 hours old using very old profiles with abundant history. I don't think 2GB is too much if the tab count and history are huge. What may make a difference is whether builds are static or not. All running in my previous post are Mozilla's static builds. I have 12 Firefox profiles and as many installed versions. My ability to utilize openSUSE's Mozilla rpms is severely limited. I couldn't be closing one version in order to open another even if I could have multiple rpms installed at once. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 31/12/2019 22.46, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2019-12-31 21:25 (UTC+0100):
PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR SWAP S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6264 cer 20 0 3955556 1,076g 99104 0 S 0,000 13,82 7:30.19 thunderbird-bin 14282 cer 20 0 2614720 709200 42476 0 S 0,000 8,690 7:07.73 shotwell 8857 cer 20 0 3518996 495620 199948 0 S 0,893 6,073 4:15.57 firefox 9064 cer 20 0 2961180 300856 100096 0 S 0,000 3,686 0:43.34 Web Content 9040 cer 20 0 2985700 243320 106748 0 S 0,298 2,981 0:39.25 Web Content 5390 cer 39 19 887344 219348 8136 0 S 0,000 2,688 0:29.63 tracker-miner-f 9015 cer 20 0 2792968 209928 82548 0 S 0,000 2,572 0:10.42 Web Content 21830 cer 20 0 2710312 195640 141988 0 S 0,595 2,397 0:24.40 Web Content 8997 cer 20 0 2825608 187920 104180 0 S 0,000 2,303 4:24.85 Web Content 8959 cer 20 0 2731372 163388 89816 0 S 0,000 2,002 0:09.71 Web Content 9112 cer 20 0 2795764 162056 67328 0 S 0,000 1,986 0:19.80 Web Content
I can't make any sense out of a multi-line-wrapped mess like that.
Blame Thunderbird entirely for that. When I wrote it it was long lines in columns perfectly readable. On sending, they were wrapped. One issue is a bug: enigmail PGP/Mime has broken recently, and the alternative breaks long lines. 2nd issue is they have broken many extensions, specifically one that allowed long lines disabling wrapping.
Just add up each "Web Content" of the RES column, and the master "firefox" entry line.
495620+300856+243320+209928+195640+187920+163388+162056=1958728
Almost two gigabytes.
How many mozilla app instances is that?
One.
How many tabs? How many windows?
A few, most of them not loaded.
How old is the history?
Not much. This profile I created a month or two ago. Why would history matter?
What's being compared to what? I listed 300 or more tabs across 7 windows from 4 app PIDs up to 112 hours old using very old profiles with abundant history.
I'm not comparing. I simply use "top" to analyze the real memory usage.
I don't think 2GB is too much if the tab count and history are huge.
Well, it is a high percent of the machine. Actually, I created a new FF profile to start again with minimal tab usage. Maybe less than a hundred. No way to count them, except manually.
What may make a difference is whether builds are static or not. All running in my previous post are Mozilla's static builds. I have 12 Firefox profiles and as many installed versions. My ability to utilize openSUSE's Mozilla rpms is severely limited. I couldn't be closing one version in order to open another even if I could have multiple rpms installed at once.
I use the official openSUSE rpm, as always. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-01-01 00:06 (UTC+0100):
Almost two gigabytes.
How many mozilla app instances is that?
One.
Makes 2G usage seem exorbitant.
How many tabs? How many windows?
A few, most of them not loaded.
As in less than 10? Seems more exorbitant.
How old is the history?
Not much. This profile I created a month or two ago. Why would history matter?
It probably should matter de minimus in a young profile, but history does get a lot of edits.
I don't think 2GB is too much if the tab count and history are huge.
Well, it is a high percent of the machine. Actually, I created a new FF profile to start again with minimal tab usage. Maybe less than a hundred. No way to count them, except manually.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tab-counter-webext/ indicates otherwise.
What may make a difference is whether builds are static or not. All running in my previous post are Mozilla's static builds. I have 12 Firefox profiles and as many installed versions. My ability to utilize openSUSE's Mozilla rpms is severely limited. I couldn't be closing one version in order to open another even if I could have multiple rpms installed at once.
I use the official openSUSE rpm, as always.
That may contribute to or be the problem. Mozilla RAM usage rarely takes any of my time, while I see others regardless of distro complain about it more than a little. The difference between is I rarely run any but static builds. What build types are Firefox, TB and Rust developers using? Maybe it's mainly mere mortal users who "test" .rpms and .debs, and/or devs don't keep any running long enough to gauge what happens in release world usage. http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/mozilla:/alpha/ & http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/mozilla:/beta/ are void of 15.1 directories. You can test a Mozilla build of same version using the exact same profile without corrupting it in any way. I've gone both ways lots of times over the years, though not in a while. I wouldn't expect the safety to have been affected. Even if it was, backups can be restored. ;-) -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2019-12-31 at 19:00 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
Carlos E. R. composed on 2020-01-01 00:06 (UTC+0100):
Almost two gigabytes.
How many mozilla app instances is that?
One.
Makes 2G usage seem exorbitant.
I'm used to it. This moment, just out of hibernation half an hour ago - top output sorted by RES memory. Using Alpine to post, so no line wrapping issues. top - 13:40:59 up 23:47, 2 users, load average: 0,19, 0,17, 0,26 Tasks: 487 total, 1 running, 485 sleeping, 0 stopped, 1 zombie %Cpu(s): 6,0 us, 1,0 sy, 0,0 ni, 91,6 id, 1,4 wa, 0,0 hi, 0,0 si, 0,0 st KiB Mem : 8161256 total, 3064304 free, 2874280 used, 2222672 buff/cache KiB Swap: 25165820 total, 21942148 free, 3223672 used. 4752628 avail Mem PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR SWAP S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6264 cer 20 0 3955540 666708 109840 33980 S 0,595 8,169 10:13.91 thunderbird-bin 8857 cer 20 0 3807704 465564 168852 23732 S 0,893 5,705 5:02.12 firefox 9064 cer 20 0 2971416 286368 68080 0 S 0,000 3,509 0:54.66 Web Content 9040 cer 20 0 3130720 205592 58344 0 S 0,298 2,519 1:53.03 Web Content 9015 cer 20 0 2795016 193968 61768 0 S 0,000 2,377 0:11.39 Web Content 4034 root 20 0 540556 142908 117732 41600 S 13,10 1,751 1:55.62 X 9182 cer 20 0 26,677g 139920 27596 0 S 0,298 1,714 0:17.70 WebExtensions 8997 cer 20 0 2826632 137252 52628 0 S 0,000 1,682 4:26.05 Web Content 9112 cer 20 0 2804980 134136 28080 0 S 0,000 1,644 0:22.47 Web Content 21830 cer 20 0 2710312 122972 68568 0 S 0,893 1,507 0:51.11 Web Content 9088 cer 20 0 2720932 117396 37332 0 S 0,000 1,438 0:07.34 Web Content 8959 cer 20 0 2736492 105016 38048 16796 S 0,000 1,287 0:10.73 Web Content 8656 cer 20 0 4063364 85376 12124 76852 S 0,298 1,046 0:14.51 java Just look at WebExtensions, 26 GB of virtual memory! I'm told VIRT does not matter. 465564+286368+205592+193968+139920+137252+134136+122972+117396+105016=1908184 bytes. It is what it is... Firefox is a memory hog.
How many tabs? How many windows?
A few, most of them not loaded.
As in less than 10? Seems more exorbitant.
I'll count them. 22+24+9+7+5+4+9=80 tabs in 7 windows. Not even a hundred. And most of the windows have only one tab actually loaded - they don't load till one clicks on the tab to view it. Or at least, they are not rendered.
How old is the history?
Not much. This profile I created a month or two ago. Why would history matter?
It probably should matter de minimus in a young profile, but history does get a lot of edits.
History is just a text file. Can't be a megabyte.
I don't think 2GB is too much if the tab count and history are huge.
Well, it is a high percent of the machine. Actually, I created a new FF profile to start again with minimal tab usage. Maybe less than a hundred. No way to count them, except manually.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tab-counter-webext/ indicates otherwise.
Ah, so there is an addon to count them. [...] Says there are 7 windows and 80 tabs.
What may make a difference is whether builds are static or not. All running in my previous post are Mozilla's static builds. I have 12 Firefox profiles and as many installed versions. My ability to utilize openSUSE's Mozilla rpms is severely limited. I couldn't be closing one version in order to open another even if I could have multiple rpms installed at once.
I use the official openSUSE rpm, as always.
That may contribute to or be the problem. Mozilla RAM usage rarely takes any of my time, while I see others regardless of distro complain about it more than a little. The difference between is I rarely run any but static builds. What build types are Firefox, TB and Rust developers using? Maybe it's mainly mere mortal users who "test" .rpms and .debs, and/or devs don't keep any running long enough to gauge what happens in release world usage.
Static build uses more memory than shared.
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/mozilla:/alpha/ & http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/mozilla:/beta/ are void of 15.1 directories.
You can test a Mozilla build of same version using the exact same profile without corrupting it in any way. I've gone both ways lots of times over the years, though not in a while. I wouldn't expect the safety to have been affected. Even if it was, backups can be restored. ;-)
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgyXXBwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVNdcAn3U0tYvLSrrLXhUaYx5B kG25KJvRAJ4v9FeuSm+4MlyQX1uHvI405i34+g== =tyFi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 31/12/2019 à 21:25, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
why not use free ram? jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 31/12/2019 23.03, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 31/12/2019 à 21:25, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
why not use free ram?
Sorry, I don't understand. FF uses so much RAM that there is not enough RAM and the machine swaps. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
Am 01.01.20 um 00:08 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 31/12/2019 23.03, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 31/12/2019 à 21:25, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
why not use free ram?
Sorry, I don't understand. FF uses so much RAM that there is not enough RAM and the machine swaps.
how many content processes do you have configured? (Probably that was written somewhere in the thread before it changed subject and so I deleted it already) I guess you know that Mozilla's RAM consumption heavily depends on the number of processes running. Many people nowadays have a lot of memory and the web browser is extremely essential for them. So for many it makes a lot of sense to run many processes. E.g. Chrome used to (likely still does) run one process per tab and is using typically much more memory when many tabs are open. Firefox behaves differently and distributes tabs onto a fixed max number of content processes. I'm running 8 content processes and my RSS value adds up to roughly 6.5G but I don't care since my browser is essential to me and stability and performance as well and I have typically enough RAM. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.21.2001011409131.22351@Telcontar.valinor> On Wednesday, 2020-01-01 at 10:12 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 01.01.20 um 00:08 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 31/12/2019 23.03, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 31/12/2019 à 21:25, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
why not use free ram?
Sorry, I don't understand. FF uses so much RAM that there is not enough RAM and the machine swaps.
how many content processes do you have configured? (Probably that was written somewhere in the thread before it changed subject and so I deleted it already)
I have not configured such a thing. Didn't know it was configurable.
I guess you know that Mozilla's RAM consumption heavily depends on the number of processes running.
No, I don't. :-o
Many people nowadays have a lot of memory and the web browser is extremely essential for them. So for many it makes a lot of sense to run many processes. E.g. Chrome used to (likely still does) run one process per tab and is using typically much more memory when many tabs are open. Firefox behaves differently and distributes tabs onto a fixed max number of content processes.
I'm running 8 content processes and my RSS value adds up to roughly 6.5G but I don't care since my browser is essential to me and stability and performance as well and I have typically enough RAM.
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output. I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgyaExwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfV+MwAn09n8p/nW2NVYYYGGL6j x3I0MGy2AJ0QKHwZlEPD4MH5FB4ag4dfeujPCQ== =8Bps -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 01/01/2020 08:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output.
I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores.
Well I (finally) upgraded to 15.1 last night. I'll see if it makes thing as bad here as it is for you with 15.1 -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, 2020-01-01 at 08:16 -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output.
I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores.
Well I (finally) upgraded to 15.1 last night.
:-D :-D :-D
I'll see if it makes thing as bad here as it is for you with 15.1
LOL -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Am 01.01.20 um 14:09 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On Wednesday, 2020-01-01 at 10:12 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 01.01.20 um 00:08 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 31/12/2019 23.03, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 31/12/2019 à 21:25, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
why not use free ram?
Sorry, I don't understand. FF uses so much RAM that there is not enough RAM and the machine swaps.
how many content processes do you have configured? (Probably that was written somewhere in the thread before it changed subject and so I deleted it already)
I have not configured such a thing. Didn't know it was configurable.
I guess you know that Mozilla's RAM consumption heavily depends on the number of processes running.
No, I don't. :-o
Good, that we talked about it then ;-)
Many people nowadays have a lot of memory and the web browser is extremely essential for them. So for many it makes a lot of sense to run many processes. E.g. Chrome used to (likely still does) run one process per tab and is using typically much more memory when many tabs are open. Firefox behaves differently and distributes tabs onto a fixed max number of content processes.
I'm running 8 content processes and my RSS value adds up to roughly 6.5G but I don't care since my browser is essential to me and stability and performance as well and I have typically enough RAM.
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output.
8 seems to be default, yes. It might be dynamic to size of installed RAM but not sure.
I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores.
Makes sense. Please observe how it behaves now memory-wise. You probably need to play a bit to find the sweet spot for your usage and system. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2020-01-01 at 14:18 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 01.01.20 um 14:09 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On Wednesday, 2020-01-01 at 10:12 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 01.01.20 um 00:08 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 31/12/2019 23.03, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 31/12/2019 à 21:25, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No? Two gigabytes is not "too much" for you? :-D
why not use free ram?
Sorry, I don't understand. FF uses so much RAM that there is not enough RAM and the machine swaps.
how many content processes do you have configured? (Probably that was written somewhere in the thread before it changed subject and so I deleted it already)
I have not configured such a thing. Didn't know it was configurable.
I guess you know that Mozilla's RAM consumption heavily depends on the number of processes running.
No, I don't. :-o
Good, that we talked about it then ;-)
I knew that it depended on the number of processes, but not "heavily". And that tidbit was useless without knowing that I can adjust the number of them. If you have said it before, I missed it, so thanks for repeating it :-)
Many people nowadays have a lot of memory and the web browser is extremely essential for them. So for many it makes a lot of sense to run many processes. E.g. Chrome used to (likely still does) run one process per tab and is using typically much more memory when many tabs are open. Firefox behaves differently and distributes tabs onto a fixed max number of content processes.
I'm running 8 content processes and my RSS value adds up to roughly 6.5G but I don't care since my browser is essential to me and stability and performance as well and I have typically enough RAM.
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output.
8 seems to be default, yes. It might be dynamic to size of installed RAM but not sure.
I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores.
Makes sense. Please observe how it behaves now memory-wise. You probably need to play a bit to find the sweet spot for your usage and system.
That is not that easy... it would need careful testing opening the same tabs several times under different conditions. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgyerxwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVRgsAn3IOrhTTt53Rt43TFhtA kayo8ZT0AKCM1gSBuhRPAPoXInceS8ZEJgWang== =owzZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2020-01-01 08:09 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Many people nowadays have a lot of memory and the web browser is extremely essential for them. So for many it makes a lot of sense to run many processes. E.g. Chrome used to (likely still does) run one process per tab and is using typically much more memory when many tabs are open. Firefox behaves differently and distributes tabs onto a fixed max number of content processes.
I'm running 8 content processes and my RSS value adds up to roughly 6.5G but I don't care since my browser is essential to me and stability and performance as well and I have typically enough RAM.
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output.
I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores.
I have mentioned earlier some performance problems I've had since switching to Leap. I often have multiple browser windows open, particularly leading up to Trump's impeachment. I'd occasionally have to kill the browsers, mostly Firefox, but also Chromium and Seamonky, to reduce memory and swap use. Even then, I have to completely kill the desktop every few days or it will lock up solid, with the hard drive light on continuously. This is with 16 GB of memory and 20 GB of swap. I'm running KDE 4 on 15.1 and this just didn't happen prior to Leap. There have been other issues, such as I have to occasionally restart krunner or my task bar disappears for several seconds. At the moment, the software update icon is on the task bar, but it's frozen. All these issues have happened only with Leap. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [01-01-20 08:51]:
On 2020-01-01 08:09 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Many people nowadays have a lot of memory and the web browser is extremely essential for them. So for many it makes a lot of sense to run many processes. E.g. Chrome used to (likely still does) run one process per tab and is using typically much more memory when many tabs are open. Firefox behaves differently and distributes tabs onto a fixed max number of content processes.
I'm running 8 content processes and my RSS value adds up to roughly 6.5G but I don't care since my browser is essential to me and stability and performance as well and I have typically enough RAM.
I have 8 GiB of ram. How many processes do you reccomend, and where do I set it up? I think it is using 8, by looking at "top" output.
I see in settings a new "use recommended performance settings" entry. If I untick it, I see "use hardware accel when possible", and that the number of processes limit is set to 8. I'll change to four, as I have 4 cores.
I have mentioned earlier some performance problems I've had since switching to Leap. I often have multiple browser windows open, particularly leading up to Trump's impeachment. I'd occasionally have to kill the browsers, mostly Firefox, but also Chromium and Seamonky, to reduce memory and swap use. Even then, I have to completely kill the desktop every few days or it will lock up solid, with the hard drive light on continuously. This is with 16 GB of memory and 20 GB of swap. I'm running KDE 4 on 15.1 and this just didn't happen prior to Leap.
There have been other issues, such as I have to occasionally restart krunner or my task bar disappears for several seconds. At the moment, the software update icon is on the task bar, but it's frozen. All these issues have happened only with Leap.
sounds like you are shooting yourself in the foot with "kde4". Why not finish your upgrade to kde/plasma5. sooner or later you will anyway. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 08:56 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
sounds like you are shooting yourself in the foot with "kde4". Why not finish your upgrade to kde/plasma5. sooner or later you will anyway.
I'm using whatever is the default install with 15.1. I thought that was KDE 4. If not I stand corrected. This was a fresh install, not upgrade, of 15.1 Can I sit down now? ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> [01-01-20 09:07]:
On 2020-01-01 08:56 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
sounds like you are shooting yourself in the foot with "kde4". Why not finish your upgrade to kde/plasma5. sooner or later you will anyway.
I'm using whatever is the default install with 15.1. I thought that was KDE 4. If not I stand corrected. This was a fresh install, not upgrade, of 15.1
ah, grouping yourself with those liking the blinkin lites
Can I sit down now? ;-)
of course not. you have not served your penalty. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 14.51, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 08:09 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have mentioned earlier some performance problems I've had since switching to Leap. I often have multiple browser windows open, particularly leading up to Trump's impeachment. I'd occasionally have to kill the browsers, mostly Firefox, but also Chromium and Seamonky, to reduce memory and swap use. Even then, I have to completely kill the desktop every few days or it will lock up solid, with the hard drive light on continuously. This is with 16 GB of memory and 20 GB of swap. I'm running KDE 4 on 15.1 and this just didn't happen prior to Leap.
Yes, Leap management of swap is way worse than pre-Leap versions. I got similar behaviour to your observations. The solution was to buy an SSD disk and put swap on it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgyyrgAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1bLGAJ9Bp/5KskLmidAj0etPobaCBni5eACfTV3pqMtR+fwCrUdvrCpzoy4N7Xo= =wxJ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 09:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Yes, Leap management of swap is way worse than pre-Leap versions. I got similar behaviour to your observations. The solution was to buy an SSD disk and put swap on it.
Any chance this will be fixed in 15.2? Or is it a kernel issue? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 16.02, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 09:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Yes, Leap management of swap is way worse than pre-Leap versions. I got similar behaviour to your observations. The solution was to buy an SSD disk and put swap on it.
Any chance this will be fixed in 15.2? Or is it a kernel issue?
I think none. It must be some kernel choice. It is possibly swap "fragmentation". The disk has to move the head to the correct placement of the needed chunk. An SSD seek time is basically nil. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy9eAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1UL5AJ9dolN+Fdt1Sk1IlBhaQJ9vuWDuDwCfbzUnsmpE5zKZ9WhbuGz9MZo/B/0= =+uI3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 10:02, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 09:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Yes, Leap management of swap is way worse than pre-Leap versions. I got similar behaviour to your observations. The solution was to buy an SSD disk and put swap on it.
Any chance this will be fixed in 15.2? Or is it a kernel issue?
It _MAY_ be rectified by some smart (aka 'beyond my understanding or skill') manipulation of the virtual memory & paging settings, more aggressive recycling of pages, perhaps. Consider the 'vm.dirty*' and the 'vm.swap*' settings -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 12:44 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
Consider the 'vm.dirty*' and the 'vm.swap*' settings
I have no idea about those. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 09:54, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Yes, Leap management of swap is way worse than pre-Leap versions. I got similar behaviour to your observations. The solution was to buy an SSD disk and put swap on it.
OUCH! my newly upgraded 15.1 is already swapping under conditions that 42.3 and even 15.0 never did! OUCH OUCH OUCH What a good way to destroy a fine SSD. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 31/12/2019 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Several of the ram offering have led lights that blink in complex patterns that can be programmed. Wow. Why on earth would anybody want that? I must be getting old.
And mobos and boxex and kables and ... Yes, we're old fogies. No, in reality its that computing power and semiconductor 'stuff' and all this 'gratuitous' display is cheap. It's a cycle of 'opulence' that has repeated itself many times in history in a variety of cultures. Big cars, big cigars, flashy (now literally) stuff. Read Veblen about "Conspicuous Consumption" in his book "The Theory of the Leisure Class” published in 1899. The term refers to consumers who buy expensive items to display wealth and income rather than to cover the real, the functional needs of the consumer. See also "Gear Acquisition Syndrome", which while first applied in photography, is applicable in other areas. https://conspicuousconsumption.org/ https://www.amazon.ca/Theory-Leisure-Class-Thorstein-Veblen/dp/0199552584 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gear_acquisition_syndrome https://petapixel.com/2015/11/25/10-practical-tips-for-fighting-g-a-s-gear-a... For most things, the gear I have already exceeds my skill in using it. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 31/12/2019 à 23:02, Anton Aylward a écrit :
applied in photography, is applicable in other areas.
hey, my new computer, as gift, is from 2012 :-). Works great jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2019-12-31 at 17:02 -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Several of the ram offering have led lights that blink in complex patterns that can be programmed. Wow. Why on earth would anybody want that? I must be getting old.
And mobos and boxex and kables and ...
Yes, we're old fogies.
No, in reality its that computing power and semiconductor 'stuff' and all this 'gratuitous' display is cheap. It's a cycle of 'opulence' that has repeated itself many times in history in a variety of cultures. Big cars, big cigars, flashy (now literally) stuff. Read Veblen about "Conspicuous Consumption" in his book "The Theory of the Leisure Class” published in 1899. The term refers to consumers who buy expensive items to display wealth and income rather than to cover the real, the functional needs of the consumer. See also "Gear Acquisition Syndrome", which while first applied in photography, is applicable in other areas.
https://conspicuousconsumption.org/ https://www.amazon.ca/Theory-Leisure-Class-Thorstein-Veblen/dp/0199552584 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gear_acquisition_syndrome https://petapixel.com/2015/11/25/10-practical-tips-for-fighting-g-a-s-gear-a...
For most things, the gear I have already exceeds my skill in using it.
But to me, a flashy computer starts by having 4 TB nvme disks in mirror configuration, without leds. If I want to show off, there would be a sticker, and a chainlock, and armed guards, and noble gas fire extinguishers, and vault doors. No f4g leds. Those people do not know what a flashy computer is. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgybqxwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVM4kAn1aIWOFC/tqcCIR63K/8 xvm/4nwbAJ4wt+ToHVf6A3XMHKPuo6D5ih8asg== =vrvv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 01/01/2020 08:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is.
Indeed. They confuse a flashING computer with a flashY computer. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 08:32 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is. Indeed. They confuse a flashING computer with a flashY computer.
Sort of like back in the dark ages when you'd see computers on TV or in movies, with the tape drives spinning back 'n forth. I used to be a computer tech, working on the old mini computers and the only time I'd see a tape drive doing that was when I was running diagnostics. In fact, there was one occasion when a TV network was in our office to get some shots of a computer system. We had to run the diagnostics to give them what they wanted. I consider that tech "bling" to be the mark of a clueless idiot. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 09:00, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 08:32 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is. Indeed. They confuse a flashING computer with a flashY computer.
Sort of like back in the dark ages when you'd see computers on TV or in movies, with the tape drives spinning back 'n forth. I used to be a computer tech, working on the old mini computers and the only time I'd see a tape drive doing that was when I was running diagnostics. In fact, there was one occasion when a TV network was in our office to get some shots of a computer system. We had to run the diagnostics to give them what they wanted.
I consider that tech "bling" to be the mark of a clueless idiot.
What about the bank of toggle switches with nixie lights above them? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NuCHQyaOaw I don't think there is a toggle switch anywhere on my computer, not even one at the back by the power cord. Except for the DVD drive all the lights are behind black plastic and only light up at boot time doing POST. I can understand an aircraft cockpit panel; it's not as if you can get out and look' and there are so many parts you need to know about. How many parts in a modern computer? The fewer the better! And lets make some of that 'fewer' the 'bling'. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [01-01-20 09:18]: [...]
I don't think there is a toggle switch anywhere on my computer, not even one at the back by the power cord. Except for the DVD drive all the lights are behind black plastic and only light up at boot time doing POST.
you may want to reconsider the toggle switch statement. They may no longer be physical switches as they have been replaces by software switches. But there are still *many*. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 09:21, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [01-01-20 09:18]: [...]
I don't think there is a toggle switch anywhere on my computer, not even one at the back by the power cord. Except for the DVD drive all the lights are behind black plastic and only light up at boot time doing POST.
you may want to reconsider the toggle switch statement. They may no longer be physical switches as they have been replaces by software switches. But there are still *many*.
I sit corrected, yes there are, and they tend to be more specific. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [01-01-20 09:54]:
On 01/01/2020 09:21, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> [01-01-20 09:18]: [...]
I don't think there is a toggle switch anywhere on my computer, not even one at the back by the power cord. Except for the DVD drive all the lights are behind black plastic and only light up at boot time doing POST.
you may want to reconsider the toggle switch statement. They may no longer be physical switches as they have been replaces by software switches. But there are still *many*.
I sit corrected, yes there are, and they tend to be more specific.
yes, more specific than on vs off :) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 09:15 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I consider that tech "bling" to be the mark of a clueless idiot. What about the bank of toggle switches with nixie lights above them? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NuCHQyaOaw
I don't think there is a toggle switch anywhere on my computer, not even one at the back by the power cord. Except for the DVD drive all the lights are behind black plastic and only light up at boot time doing POST.
I can understand an aircraft cockpit panel; it's not as if you can get out and look' and there are so many parts you need to know about. How many parts in a modern computer? The fewer the better! And lets make some of that 'fewer' the 'bling'.
Those were functional. Back in those days, that panel was used to monitor and control the computer. There was one system, Phillips DS714, at my company, that even had a speaker so that the operator could hear how it was running. You'd get used to the normal sounds and be able to recognize something abnormal. You can see the speaker and volume control in the upper left of the photo. https://ds714.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/hello-world/ A lot of my work was on Data General Eclipse computers, where you'd use the switches to specify which device you wanted to boot from and I'd also use the switches and lights to step through the micro code, when working on a CPU problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General_Eclipse Later computers, such as the VAX 11/780 (I worked on them too) used a separate LSI-11microcomputer as the "front panel". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX-11 Here is my first computer, an IMSAI 8080. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSAI_8080 Those switches and LEDs were needed, just to get things started. Back in those days, I called "turn key" computers "turkey" as real computers had switches and lights. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 16.00, James Knott wrote:
Later computers, such as the VAX 11/780 (I worked on them too) used a separate LSI-11microcomputer as the "front panel". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX-11
I learned pascal on a VAX at University. But we only saw a terminal. The machine was in a closed room with a glass window. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy32gAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1febAJwOrDhhvZfFuBDqfxU8q9cebH9FdwCeO9fyU9tgsvJBEj3iTzXaQed9iNk= =Q70O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 10:16 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I learned pascal on a VAX at University. But we only saw a terminal. The machine was in a closed room with a glass window.
I worked in that "closed room with a glass window". When my company built the computer room, they installed windows all along a hall that ran along side, so they could show off the systems to visitors. I worked on a variety of systems over the years, starting with Data General Nova 800 & PDP-8i. I later moved onto Data General Eclipse, DEC PDP-11, Collins 8500C, VAX 11/780, various Pr1me models and others. In all that, there was also one, count 'em, one XT clone! ;-) I took Electrical Engineering at night school, where we used an IBM mainframe, but I did my FORTRAN homework on a VAX at work. I could dial in from home to do it. By the time I got to IBM, I was doing software support on ThinkPads and desktop systems. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 16.27, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 10:16 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I learned pascal on a VAX at University. But we only saw a terminal. The machine was in a closed room with a glass window.
The machine was so overloaded with students that it could take half a minute to respond to a keypress on the editor, when everybody was compiling their exercises. So I finally decided that I would buy a PC, an Amstrad 1512 DD, to practice pascal. I found a friendly teacher that copied my source code from my floppy to the vax using, I think, kermit. Then I had to change Turbo Pascal constructs to Pascal constructs.
I worked in that "closed room with a glass window". When my company built the computer room, they installed windows all along a hall that ran along side, so they could show off the systems to visitors.
I worked on a variety of systems over the years, starting with Data General Nova 800 & PDP-8i. I later moved onto Data General Eclipse, DEC PDP-11, Collins 8500C, VAX 11/780, various Pr1me models and others. In all that, there was also one, count 'em, one XT clone! ;-)
I took Electrical Engineering at night school, where we used an IBM mainframe, but I did my FORTRAN homework on a VAX at work. I could dial in from home to do it.
By the time I got to IBM, I was doing software support on ThinkPads and desktop systems.
:-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2020-01-01 10:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The machine was so overloaded with students that it could take half a minute to respond to a keypress on the editor, when everybody was compiling their exercises. So I finally decided that I would buy a PC, an Amstrad 1512 DD, to practice pascal. I found a friendly teacher that copied my source code from my floppy to the vax using, I think, kermit. Then I had to change Turbo Pascal constructs to Pascal constructs.
Our problem was finding an available terminal that wasn't broken. So, again I'd go home and dial into the school's computer. I used Procomm+ on an XT clone. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 10:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The machine was so overloaded with students that it could take half a minute to respond to a keypress on the editor, when everybody was compiling their exercises. So I finally decided that I would buy a PC, an Amstrad 1512 DD, to practice pascal. I found a friendly teacher that copied my source code from my floppy to the vax using, I think, kermit. Then I had to change Turbo Pascal constructs to Pascal constructs.
Our problem was finding an available terminal that wasn't broken. So, again I'd go home and dial into the school's computer. I used Procomm+ on an XT clone.
Not specifically aimed at James or Carlos, but perhaps this has gone a little too off-topic? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 15.15, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 09:00, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 08:32 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is. Indeed. They confuse a flashING computer with a flashY computer.
Sort of like back in the dark ages when you'd see computers on TV or in movies, with the tape drives spinning back 'n forth. I used to be a computer tech, working on the old mini computers and the only time I'd see a tape drive doing that was when I was running diagnostics. In fact, there was one occasion when a TV network was in our office to get some shots of a computer system. We had to run the diagnostics to give them what they wanted.
I consider that tech "bling" to be the mark of a clueless idiot.
What about the bank of toggle switches with nixie lights above them? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NuCHQyaOaw
I don't think there is a toggle switch anywhere on my computer, not even one at the back by the power cord. Except for the DVD drive all the lights are behind black plastic and only light up at boot time doing POST.
There are jumpers inside, in the motherboard. In the "dark ages" a technician had to load the boot code with a bank of swithces, instruction by instruction. Write a word, flip a switch to load, then the next word. Finally, another button to "run". Then the machine knew how to load things from something else (cards, tape, whatever). Apparently, they had no "bios" or no bios boot code. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy0twAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1ea4AJ4vZe2wIXBuyvT6ehXfPfScm5RNZwCeNk1BmoFfLD04cIj3D7xh1iY2yb4= =RNI7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 10:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the "dark ages" a technician had to load the boot code with a bank of swithces, instruction by instruction. Write a word, flip a switch to load, then the next word. Finally, another button to "run". Then the machine knew how to load things from something else (cards, tape, whatever). Apparently, they had no "bios" or no bios boot code.
Anyone else here remember the PDP-8 RIM loader? Or the IPL button on mainframes? IPL - "Initial Program Load" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 16.11, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 10:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the "dark ages" a technician had to load the boot code with a bank of swithces, instruction by instruction. Write a word, flip a switch to load, then the next word. Finally, another button to "run". Then the machine knew how to load things from something else (cards, tape, whatever). Apparently, they had no "bios" or no bios boot code.
Anyone else here remember the PDP-8 RIM loader? Or the IPL button on mainframes?
IPL - "Initial Program Load"
No, I only heard tales from them; the most ancient machine I touched was a VAX. Oh, I saw the IBM at my father machine at his job place several years before. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy5AQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1Y8bAKCUzp/8BGtpfGtUCkcnGDnGiMC+eQCfV7yNFJOoRCy0B8GMFr4qSDDM7ME= =1ijm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 10:11:32 -0500 James Knott <james.knott@jknott.net> wrote:
On 2020-01-01 10:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the "dark ages" a technician had to load the boot code with a bank of swithces, instruction by instruction. Write a word, flip a switch to load, then the next word. Finally, another button to "run". Then the machine knew how to load things from something else (cards, tape, whatever). Apparently, they had no "bios" or no bios boot code.
Anyone else here remember the PDP-8 RIM loader? Or the IPL button on mainframes?
Yup
IPL - "Initial Program Load"
I worked on one machine where the clock speed was set by a twenty-turn pot, and IIRC you had to slow it down whilst the boot sequence ran and then crank it up to full speed once the OS was fully running. Oh, and tapes used to whizz backwards and forwards when the OS was using them to load overlays. Many tape systems could only read forwards so had to be completely rewound and then searched forwards to access any earlier blocks on the tape. I think some of the DEC systems were able to rewind one block at a time? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 10:24 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Oh, and tapes used to whizz backwards and forwards when the OS was using them to load overlays. Many tape systems could only read forwards so had to be completely rewound and then searched forwards to access any earlier blocks on the tape. I think some of the DEC systems were able to rewind one block at a time?
I only saw overlays with head per track disks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 16.28, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 10:24 AM, Dave Howorth wrote:
Oh, and tapes used to whizz backwards and forwards when the OS was using them to load overlays. Many tape systems could only read forwards so had to be completely rewound and then searched forwards to access any earlier blocks on the tape. I think some of the DEC systems were able to rewind one block at a time?
I only saw overlays with head per track disks.
We used overlays on MsDOS. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy8rwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1ZlKAJsGywpq8B2nbniO/rUA/J3S9pVYVACfWd9AOUSo7qLFDnTEIXWFwTcyyEE= =XC9x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 10:03, Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the "dark ages" a technician had to load the boot code with a bank of swithces, instruction by instruction. Write a word, flip a switch to load, then the next word. Finally, another button to "run". Then the machine knew how to load things from something else (cards, tape, whatever). Apparently, they had no "bios" or no bios boot code.
Mo, not "a technician', anybody wanting to user the beast. As on a number of unmemorable British computers (some even using magnetic amplifiers and valves), then DEC and DataGeneral, and then a number of custom built minis and micros using, for example, TTL logic and later AMD and TO bit slice components as they evolved. Back in those days I could remember the octal of various machine codes ... How I kept the codes for different machines clear in my head ... wele the same way people who speak numerous human languages (my paternal grandfather spoke 12 fluently) keep them separate in their heads. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
In the "dark ages" a technician had to load the boot code with a bank of swithces, instruction by instruction. Write a word, flip a switch to load, then the next word.
<offtopic> That is precisely why it is called "boot" - this code was the "bootstrap" code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping
Finally, another button to "run". Then the machine knew how to load things from something else (cards, tape, whatever). Apparently, they had no "bios" or no bios boot code.
That is correct. When I was in highschool in the late 70s, we had a 16bit minicomputer with three 80x25 terminals and a teletype with paperpunch. AFAIR, after a power failure, it had to be bootstrapped before it could load the COMAL or Fortran interpreters from 8" floppy. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (0.5°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 15.00, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 08:32 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is. Indeed. They confuse a flashING computer with a flashY computer.
Sort of like back in the dark ages when you'd see computers on TV or in movies, with the tape drives spinning back 'n forth. I used to be a computer tech, working on the old mini computers and the only time I'd see a tape drive doing that was when I was running diagnostics. In fact, there was one occasion when a TV network was in our office to get some shots of a computer system. We had to run the diagnostics to give them what they wanted.
Oh :-o I always wondered why the tapes were doing that. Seeking? Reading and writing on the same region? Mystery solved, thanks. :-D
I consider that tech "bling" to be the mark of a clueless idiot.
- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgyzbAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1fd0AJ0RDk8PqWe2pYn2lIPuZP28+b8g0gCbBM0xJgd3voA4T9JS6ewceOYqbWs= =Bwzl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 09:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I always wondered why the tapes were doing that. Seeking? Reading and writing on the same region?
Mystery solved, thanks.:-D
In actual use, you'd see them tend to move incrementally through the tape, with an occasional rewind. However, back in the '50s, when tape first appeared, computers had very little memory and often no disks. So, sorting would be done on the tapes (merge sort), but even then, they didn't behave the way the did in the movies. Also, many people couldn't tell the difference between a tape drive and the actual computer. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_sort Prior to tapes, sorting was usually done on punch cards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 16.08, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 09:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I always wondered why the tapes were doing that. Seeking? Reading and writing on the same region?
Mystery solved, thanks.:-D
In actual use, you'd see them tend to move incrementally through the tape, with an occasional rewind. However, back in the '50s, when tape first appeared, computers had very little memory and often no disks. So, sorting would be done on the tapes (merge sort), but even then, they didn't behave the way the did in the movies. Also, many people couldn't tell the difference between a tape drive and the actual computer. ;-)
Oh, the tape drives were huge.
I probably did it in class :-)
Prior to tapes, sorting was usually done on punch cards.
By the human? :-D - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy58QAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1ewpAJ96zEGtNIDYuui6xSqs7r5kTkVlLwCdGJtGnE3/2zPYZfOen+ZJLYdqVOg= =7cQG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 10:25 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Prior to tapes, sorting was usually done on punch cards. By the human?:-D
No, punch cards had been in use for decades before computers arrived, so there was a wide variety of equipment that worked with them, including collators, calculators and more. Back then an operator would set up the collator to do the necessary sorting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IBM_products -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 16.33, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 10:25 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Prior to tapes, sorting was usually done on punch cards. By the human?:-D
No, punch cards had been in use for decades before computers arrived, so there was a wide variety of equipment that worked with them, including collators, calculators and more. Back then an operator would set up the collator to do the necessary sorting.
Oh. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy81QAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1f6FAJ0UXNoFcmzLFWkw+OVxHfwPhwQziACgmEG8hhSA9xxgOY5zStXWymNx+yE= =CFiq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 15:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 01/01/2020 15.00, James Knott wrote:
On 2020-01-01 08:32 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is. Indeed. They confuse a flashING computer with a flashY computer.
Sort of like back in the dark ages when you'd see computers on TV or in movies, with the tape drives spinning back 'n forth. I used to be a computer tech, working on the old mini computers and the only time I'd see a tape drive doing that was when I was running diagnostics. In fact, there was one occasion when a TV network was in our office to get some shots of a computer system. We had to run the diagnostics to give them what they wanted.
Oh :-o
I always wondered why the tapes were doing that. Seeking? Reading and writing on the same region?
Playing: hide & seek ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2020-01-01 08:16 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But to me, a flashy computer starts by having 4 TB nvme disks in mirror configuration, without leds. If I want to show off, there would be a sticker, and a chainlock, and armed guards, and noble gas fire extinguishers, and vault doors. No f4g leds.
Those people do not know what a flashy computer is.
I've also noticed some people have idiotic ideas about how tech should look. For a while I had a cable modem that was so ugly I wanted to hide it. There are some things I refuse to buy, because they're so d*mn ugly, no matter how good they might be technically. I guess the designers are watching too much sci-fi. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 31/12/2019 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You do not need photo editing to eat the memory.
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows) and Libreoffice (with a few calc sheets and documents). Then, perhaps open shotwell to search, not edit, for a photo. Open another firefox profile or two. Perhaps a java application that controls the TV. The antivirus daemon, the antispam daemon... Then use them for two days.
Let see, I have TBird with 23 accounts and about 200 folders; Firefox with 4 windows and about 1,000 tabs all in all, four konsole windoes each where I've been doing a lot of VIM based editing as well as grepping and more/less paging and other CLI stuff. But the real memory hog is actually the icons in Dolphin. I have it set up to show miniatures of the graphics of all the dozen or so folders/tabs I have under ~anton/Photographs/ByYear/... That not only eats memory but CPU as well. main:~ # swapon -s Filename Type Size Used Priority /dev/sda2 partition 5858300 0 2 main:~ # uptime 17:08:30 up 9:42, 6 users, load average: 2.51, 2.09, 1.86 maybe I've done some good tuning to the VM ... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2019-12-31 at 17:17 -0500, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 31/12/2019 14:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You do not need photo editing to eat the memory.
Just open Thunderbird, Firefox (with a few windows) and Libreoffice (with a few calc sheets and documents). Then, perhaps open shotwell to search, not edit, for a photo. Open another firefox profile or two. Perhaps a java application that controls the TV. The antivirus daemon, the antispam daemon... Then use them for two days.
Let see, I have TBird with 23 accounts and about 200 folders;
top - 14:18:02 up 1 day, 24 min, 2 users, load average: 0,50, 0,55, 0,46 Tasks: 489 total, 1 running, 487 sleeping, 0 stopped, 1 zombie %Cpu(s): 11,7 us, 0,7 sy, 0,0 ni, 87,5 id, 0,1 wa, 0,0 hi, 0,0 si, 0,0 st KiB Mem : 8161256 total, 2927312 free, 3128768 used, 2105176 buff/cache KiB Swap: 25165820 total, 22105988 free, 3059832 used. 4500000 avail Mem PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR SWAP S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 6264 cer 20 0 4092756 1,121g 109840 33924 S 3,274 14,40 10:33.33 thunderbird-bin Thunderbird is the single app most hungry in my system this minute. More than 1 GB, 10 accounts. I have no idea of the folder count. The local dovecot account has a lot of them.
Firefox with 4 windows and about 1,000 tabs all in all, four konsole windoes each where I've been doing a lot of VIM based editing as well as grepping and more/less paging and other CLI stuff.
But the real memory hog is actually the icons in Dolphin. I have it set up to show miniatures of the graphics of all the dozen or so folders/tabs I have under ~anton/Photographs/ByYear/... That not only eats memory but CPU as well.
main:~ # swapon -s Filename Type Size Used Priority /dev/sda2 partition 5858300 0 2 main:~ # uptime 17:08:30 up 9:42, 6 users, load average: 2.51, 2.09, 1.86
I prefer "free -h --si".
maybe I've done some good tuning to the VM ...
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHoEARECADoWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgydYhwccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQHRlbGVmb25pY2EubmV0AAoJELUzGBxtjUfVU6gAnR8RkO8CWaj20fKOTvmX ECOx6zmuAKCMyeHfMgwjOB+cm7UnZDx9yP2VgQ== =Zew8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 08:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Thunderbird is the single app most hungry in my system this minute. More than 1 GB, 10 accounts. I have no idea of the folder count. The local dovecot account has a lot of them.
yesnomaybe. At startup Dolphin is the worst since it is already rendering so many f those miniaturized images. As times goes on, Firefox gets to be the main consumer, again rendering, rendering. Thunderbird has a lot of accounts and lot of folders and yes there is dovecot managing close on 5G of files ... but 'rendering'? If I were dealing to an extent with HTML mail that had to be rendered graphically, you might have a point. *ALL* the lists I subscribe to I have configured to send plain text mail, just like this one. What is interesting is that what's in the SPAM folder, and rightly so, it *IS* spam, is very often HTML. http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml https://old.efn.no/html-bad.html https://www.wired.com/2001/02/friends-dont-e-mail-friends-html/ https://fcw.com/articles/2006/12/22/dod-bars-use-of-html-email-outlook-web-a... I don't want to appear absolute about that matter, sometimes it is necessary. But lets face it, it is graphical browsing using Firefox that does all the rendering, and that is as it should be. It's not the HTML that's difficult, it's rendering the result as a pixel array. I'm sure you could, I'm sure people have, designed an instruction set suited for rendering, but a general purpose computer is just that. it has to compute and calculate and dish up files and deal with character strings and parse, parse, parse. Which is why, comparatively speaking, rendering is both CPU and memory intensive. And heck, the X engine has enough of that already. You want efficient, lexical instruction set efficiency? Don't run X. Use all the text-mode tools, regress to UNIX of the 1970s when were are running 40 users on a PDP-11, doing edit, compile cycles. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 15.01, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 08:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Thunderbird is the single app most hungry in my system this minute. More than 1 GB, 10 accounts. I have no idea of the folder count. The local dovecot account has a lot of them.
yesnomaybe. At startup Dolphin is the worst since it is already rendering so many f those miniaturized images. As times goes on, Firefox gets to be the main consumer, again rendering, rendering.
Thunderbird has a lot of accounts and lot of folders and yes there is dovecot managing close on 5G of files ... but 'rendering'?
If I were dealing to an extent with HTML mail that had to be rendered graphically, you might have a point. *ALL* the lists I subscribe to I have configured to send plain text mail, just like this one. What is interesting is that what's in the SPAM folder, and rightly so, it *IS* spam, is very often HTML.
Thunderbird only renders the single current email. More if you open more windows. But, it indexes many folders, reading their headers. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgy7SgAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1dMTAJ9p0HQ60l1jddTzksrInldoJ8CZkgCeO3M81y6uDQw2HtPRcdiPOXkXUus= =jzPn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 10:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Thunderbird only renders the single current email. More if you open more windows. But, it indexes many folders, reading their headers.
Yes, it indexes them, and it keeps the index files around and timestamps. That takes p a great deal of space! Think of it a s a cache. Actually, just like Dolphin and Firefox, it renders EVERY single one ... as it encounters them, then moves on. Yes, Dolphin does that 'moves on' to the next image to render automatically whereas Tbird and FF only do it as you direct them. But my reading/scanning speed is pretty fast so the step-and-repeat for me is racing though the images. headers don't tell you a lot about how a thread is actually progressing, few people alter them and those of us that do don't always do it. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 01/01/2020 17.33, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 10:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Thunderbird only renders the single current email. More if you open more windows. But, it indexes many folders, reading their headers.
Yes, it indexes them, and it keeps the index files around and timestamps. That takes p a great deal of space! Think of it a s a cache.
Actually, just like Dolphin and Firefox, it renders EVERY single one ... as it encounters them, then moves on.
I think it doesn't. It only reads the header, not the body of the emails. There is no reason to, unless it is building a dictionary for content search, and it doesn't have that feature, fast content search. All the information it needs is in the headers.
Yes, Dolphin does that 'moves on' to the next image to render automatically whereas Tbird and FF only do it as you direct them. But my reading/scanning speed is pretty fast so the step-and-repeat for me is racing though the images. headers don't tell you a lot about how a thread is actually progressing, few people alter them and those of us that do don't always do it.
- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXgzjowAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1fRfAKCOrgrhp7H25+OEmMovDvBguEP2gwCeKvqV/RJ6H1ropD5JD6JCRBM3vbk= =+hDv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 13:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I think it doesn't. It only reads the header, not the body of the emails. There is no reason to, unless it is building a dictionary for content search, and it doesn't have that feature, fast content search. All the information it needs is in the headers.
Dovecot does, or can if you configure it that way, and let it do full text content searches -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/01/2020 19.54, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 01/01/2020 13:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I think it doesn't. It only reads the header, not the body of the emails. There is no reason to, unless it is building a dictionary for content search, and it doesn't have that feature, fast content search. All the information it needs is in the headers.
Dovecot does, or can if you configure it that way, and let it do full text content searches
Yes, dovecot does, if you activate one of the content indexers. By default it doesn't. And Thunderbird doesn't, unless you activate "Enable Global Search and Indexer" (Advanced tab of settings), which is a resources hog (CPU, RAM, and Disk I/O) for days. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
participants (10)
-
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Dave Howorth -
Felix Miata -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
suse＠a-domani.nl -
Wolfgang Rosenauer