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Hi,
Somehow, and I am certain I had my fingers in it, discussion about oSC has somewhat high jacked the thread about the wording of a form letter for membership applicants. As we have lots of discussions going on, rather than continue to high jack the other thread lets just add another log to the fire.
Let me start out with a proclamation about oSC:
The intent of the openSUSE Conference (oSC) is/was to be an inward looking conference. Focused on the openSUSE community and project the idea is/was that a significant number of contributors gather once a year to discuss the current state of the project, make plans for future direction, innovate, start new initiatives, socialize face to face, and bond. Everyone is welcome to contribute and attend the event, but it is not targeted to be an outreach conference with a focus on "finding" new contributors. The conference should have ample of time to mentor those that attend that are new or relatively new to openSUSE and want to be more involved.
We can of course argue over this proclamation/charter but I will consider it as basis for what is to come.
Lets look at the facts:
- - While in the end we had a good turn out at oSC15, it took a herculean effort to get there and I would say we did not meet the goal of having "..a significant number of contributors gather..".
- - The most recent oSCs required an unbelievable effort by a very small group of people. Each year we got lucky and found someone who was willing to take on the organization. But effectively we are in "burn mode", i.e. once someone organized the event they are completely and utterly burned out. This is simply not sustainable. + Arguments about this point will probably range anywhere from personality issues to "I am too far away to help"
- - Not having "a significant number of contributors gather" at oSC makes it impossible to achieve the other goals: + discuss the current state of the project + make plans for future direction + start new initiatives The glaring example here is that the "Booth box" session at oSC15 was attended by 2 people, both of whom were already familiar with the current state and how we got there etc. Making it impossible to have a discussion about what works and what doesn't and how we can do better going forward.
So what's next?
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter of oSC". Yes there are a million reasons why contributors cannot come, Travel is expensive, it is too far away, it is over a weekend, one needs to take vacation, bad timing, .....
Given that everyone can probably give at least 5 reasons why oSC attendance is at the bottom of their list, we have no sustainable way of organizing oSC, and we are failing the charter (as defined above) I think it is fair to ask a few questions:
Staring with the most provocative one on purpose:
- - Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16? + Consider that no proposals were received for the call for location of oSC16 + Everyone that says "yes we should", be prepared to help
- - Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand it more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project" + Even this will require us to figure out how we get more people involved in the organization. Burning people out year after year to organize oSC is not really a good approach
- - How can we come up with a model that provides a more sustainable organizational effort?
- - What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top of your list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present? + Do we need a rock star act for the party? + More beer, less beer, .....?
- - What prevents people from contributing to the organization of oSC?
Obviously a rather incomplete list of questions, but it is a start.
Anyway, as it stands at this point (business as usual) a call for location would go out towards the end of this year for oSC17. This will probably go unanswered adn thus a few of us will be left sending out direct e-mail to someone who might be willing to take on the task. Unless we do something about it oSC might die all by itself without having this discussion. Thus, rather than having a death by apathy, lets figure out if we are all comfortable with this, i.e. oSC dying, or if collectively we have the energy to save the event and we can come up with a plan to do so.
Later, Robert
P.S. If I inadvertently steeped on your tows or pointed the finger at you, or was offensive in any way, I apologize. I believe it is necessary that we have an honest and open discussion about oSC, attendance and organization.
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Hi Robert,
Le mercredi 03 juin 2015, à 12:33 -0400, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
So what's next?
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter of oSC".
Yes there are a million reasons why contributors cannot come, Travel is expensive, it is too far away, it is over a weekend, one needs to take vacation, bad timing, .....
Given that everyone can probably give at least 5 reasons why oSC attendance is at the bottom of their list, we have no sustainable way of organizing oSC, and we are failing the charter (as defined above) I think it is fair to ask a few questions:
Staring with the most provocative one on purpose:
- Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16?
- Consider that no proposals were received for the call for location of oSC16
- Everyone that says "yes we should", be prepared to help
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand it
more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project"
- Even this will require us to figure out how we get more people involved in the organization. Burning people out year after year to organize oSC is not really a good approach
- How can we come up with a model that provides a more sustainable
organizational effort?
- What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top of your
list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present?
- Do we need a rock star act for the party?
- More beer, less beer, .....?
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of oSC?
Obviously a rather incomplete list of questions, but it is a start.
I'll answer with another question: what happened with the idea of organizing smaller events co-located with other events (where there should be nearly no organization cost)? Are we still pushing for this?
(if such smaller events work well, maybe it could somehow replace oSC, although the charter would be different)
Thanks,
Vincent
Le 04/06/2015 09:39, Vincent Untz a écrit :
I'll answer with another question: what happened with the idea of organizing smaller events co-located with other events (where there should be nearly no organization cost)? Are we still pushing for this?
don't know, but I would like it
(if such smaller events work well, maybe it could somehow replace oSC, although the charter would be different)
or not replace but give reason to people to come to osc (I think of small events organizers)
It seems than Alionet people going to RMLL did not receive booth box, I have to go there to give them what I have left :-( - not much
and alione is something big as is RMLL
jdd
Le 03/06/2015 18:33, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
another log to the fire.
I agree with most (if not all) what you say.
The intent of the openSUSE Conference (oSC) is/was to be an inward looking conference.
this do not prevent us from using the fact that many well known openSUSE people are there to make a marketing operation :-)
If I keep what you say the OSC have to be (and I agree with it), I think we should :
* provide free and reasonably comfortable lodgement for any attendant at first. People should know than finding a Hotel is not an option.
* then if we don't have a "public day", we could have only three days (from Friday to sunday morning). Using the monday is a very bad idea.
* make the travel expense system more friendly and reactive. Right now somebody have to work like if no reimbursement is possible, because nothing is sure. For example I have not received anything yet. I could afford this this year, but may be not always.
This is for basic things.
For content, we should have a welcome comity. Nobody should come without being received by some openSUSE member. I come this year thinking to help like I did on Nuremberg 2011, but found nobody to give me tasks...
may be there where too many conference (for the attendance number), I couldn't attend as many as I would (=at the same hour).
do not think at this as a rant. I perfectly know how difficult the task is, I I'm grateful on OSC-15 team for the good job!
I specially appreciated the quality of the video of OSC-15. I couldn't test the stream, the the video are extremely good (and with very good sound)
this one conference was specially good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGWvoP5x6GA&list=PL_AMhvchzBaeV36wYqnKb7...
and have been seen 677 time until now, a very good number...
On the end (just for now :-) I would say that the call for OSC locations should say how many people are awaited, and roughly how many money will be available.
We can accommodate anybody in a hostel or find a congress center, not the same work nor the same price :-)
thanks jdd
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On 06/04/2015 03:39 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:
Hi Robert,
Le mercredi 03 juin 2015, à 12:33 -0400, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
So what's next?
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter
of oSC". Yes there are a million reasons why contributors cannot come, Travel is expensive, it is too far away, it is over a weekend, one needs to take vacation, bad timing, .....
Given that everyone can probably give at least 5 reasons why oSC attendance is at the bottom of their list, we have no sustainable way of organizing oSC, and we are failing the charter (as defined above) I think it is fair to ask a few questions:
Staring with the most provocative one on purpose:
- Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16? +
Consider that no proposals were received for the call for location of oSC16 + Everyone that says "yes we should", be prepared to help
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and
brand it more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project" + Even this will require us to figure out how we get more people involved in the organization. Burning people out year after year to organize oSC is not really a good approach
- How can we come up with a model that provides a more
sustainable organizational effort?
- What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top
of your list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present? + Do we need a rock star act for the party? + More beer, less beer, .....?
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of
oSC?
Obviously a rather incomplete list of questions, but it is a start.
I'll answer with another question: what happened with the idea of organizing smaller events co-located with other events (where there should be nearly no organization cost)? Are we still pushing for this?
We had our first go at this with the "miniSummit" at SCaLE earlier this year. I would say we were reasonably successful.
We ended up in a similar situation as with oSC organization, a bus factor of one. Also it being the first go around there were many rough edges.
(if such smaller events work well, maybe it could somehow replace oSC, although the charter would be different)
Yes, this is of course an option. Instead of trying to pull together one large event working on smaller events around the world that have the potential to be closer to contributors and thus reduce travel cost, time investment etc. could make sense. And yes, the charter would be different.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Le 04/06/2015 15:04, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
We had our first go at this with the "miniSummit" at SCaLE earlier this year. I would say we were reasonably successful.
yes. I couldn't attend fro few days syn problems, but could go there on Sunday and was glad to meet some old chaps :-))
We ended up in a similar situation as with oSC organization, a bus factor of one. Also it being the first go around there were many rough edges.
apart being in an expensive Hilton Hotel, can you elaborate?
thanks jdd
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Vincent Untz vuntz@opensuse.org wrote:
Hi Robert,
Le mercredi 03 juin 2015, à 12:33 -0400, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
So what's next?
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter of oSC".
Yes there are a million reasons why contributors cannot come, Travel is expensive, it is too far away, it is over a weekend, one needs to take vacation, bad timing, .....
Given that everyone can probably give at least 5 reasons why oSC attendance is at the bottom of their list, we have no sustainable way of organizing oSC, and we are failing the charter (as defined above) I think it is fair to ask a few questions:
Staring with the most provocative one on purpose:
- Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16?
- Consider that no proposals were received for the call for location of oSC16
- Everyone that says "yes we should", be prepared to help
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand it
more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project"
- Even this will require us to figure out how we get more people involved in the organization. Burning people out year after year to organize oSC is not really a good approach
- How can we come up with a model that provides a more sustainable
organizational effort?
- What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top of your
list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present?
- Do we need a rock star act for the party?
- More beer, less beer, .....?
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of oSC?
Obviously a rather incomplete list of questions, but it is a start.
I'll answer with another question: what happened with the idea of organizing smaller events co-located with other events (where there should be nearly no organization cost)? Are we still pushing for this?
(if such smaller events work well, maybe it could somehow replace oSC, although the charter would be different)
Thanks,
Vincent
I'm sorry I can't remember his name, but a SUSE employee ran a mini-conference at SCaLE (The Southern California Linux Expo) this (2015) year. It left me with a desire to investigate the quality of the openSUSE effort. That is, it worked well for me.
PatrickD
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On 06/04/2015 09:29 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 04/06/2015 15:04, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
We had our first go at this with the "miniSummit" at SCaLE earlier this year. I would say we were reasonably successful.
yes. I couldn't attend fro few days syn problems, but could go there on Sunday and was glad to meet some old chaps :-))
We ended up in a similar situation as with oSC organization, a bus factor of one. Also it being the first go around there were many rough edges.
apart being in an expensive Hilton Hotel, can you elaborate?
Bus factor of one meaning Drew Adams worked like crazy to pull things together. THANK YOU Drew.
For the booth there was help but all the pre-event stuff pretty much was hanging off Drew.
For a long time issues like "do we accept our own talks", room allocation, time and date for the openSUSE dedicated room etc. were all up in the air. This made it difficult for planning and getting speakers lined up. All issues that can be fixed with experience and doing more of these events.
A "formalization" of the process, which would also undoubtedly benefit oSC organization would certainly help.
I would say the concept of the miniSummit is great. It provides a very good opportunity to reach out and present the openSUSE project. I am not so certain about a miniSUmmit providing a good opportunity to cover the charter for oSC, all or parts of it.
Thus, in a way the very basic question remains. Do we believe that the charter of oSC, as I proclaimed it to be, is mostly on the right track? If the answer is yes and we do not meet our own expectations, I proclaim that to be the case, should oSC continue past oSC16? Is it worth re-thinking what oSC is all about and create a new charter in the hopes of being more successful in finding people that are willing to organize the event and will not be burned out when they are done? ....a stream of many open questions...
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Le 04/06/2015 19:29, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
Thus, in a way the very basic question remains. Do we believe that the charter of oSC, as I proclaimed it to be, is mostly on the right track? If the answer is yes and we do not meet our own expectations, I proclaim that to be the case, should oSC continue past oSC16? Is it worth re-thinking what oSC is all about and create a new charter in the hopes of being more successful in finding people that are willing to organize the event and will not be burned out when they are done? ....a stream of many open questions...
could it not be the main OSC-16 subject?
jdd
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On 06/04/2015 01:42 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 04/06/2015 19:29, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
Thus, in a way the very basic question remains. Do we believe that the charter of oSC, as I proclaimed it to be, is mostly on the right track? If the answer is yes and we do not meet our own expectations, I proclaim that to be the case, should oSC continue past oSC16? Is it worth re-thinking what oSC is all about and create a new charter in the hopes of being more successful in finding people that are willing to organize the event and will not be burned out when they are done? ....a stream of many open questions...
could it not be the main OSC-16 subject?
Not really. First I am not convinced that just because the event is in Nuremberg we are going to get more contributors and members to oSC16 than we have over the last couple of years. Remember, no matter where the conference takes place the basic obstacles remain:
- - Travel is expensive and TSP covers only X% - - It's over the weekend - - It requires taking vacation - - It cuts into family time .....
But lets assume I am being too pessimistic and for some magical reason we are going to end up with a large number of contributors participating in oSC16, but lets exclude those contributors with @suse.com addresses that also happen to work in Nuremberg as these will significantly skew the picture because the have the "its local" advantage. So back to it, a large number of contributors show up at oSC16 and we have a great discussion about the future of oSC in, lets say the Live Project Meeting. Also lets assume we come to an agreement that oSC should continue with the charter it has.
Based on past experience it takes a significant amount of time to find people to take the lead in the organization. It also takes a significant amount of time to get the event organized and unfortunately these two things are sequential. One can not start the organization when the is no organizing team ;)
Starting this process after oSC16 implies that it is highly unlikely that we could pull of a Spring date. As the date approaches June/July travel prices become even more expensive as they already are which makes it more unlikely for people to show up. The conference schedule in the Fall for FOSS events is even more packed than in the Spring and thus it is even more difficult to find a slot. In addition the "conference overload" issue in the Fall will probably contribute to having fewer attendees.
Thus, IMHO, waiting with this discussion until oSC16 is too late if we want to continue. Of course it is fair enough to say "we'll try and figure it out at oSC16 and if there is a year break we are OK with it."
As it stands today, the call for location for oSC17 is probably 4 months away. I think it would also be fair to figure out if that should even happen.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Robert Schweikert wrote:
we are going to get more contributors and members to oSC16 than we have over the last couple of years. Remember, no matter where the conference takes place the basic obstacles remain:
- Travel is expensive and TSP covers only X%
- It's over the weekend
- It requires taking vacation
- It cuts into family time
.....
Cost remains an issue, as is perhaps dedicating some vacation time to it, but otherwise they're not really "obstacles" as such - the openSUSE conference simply has to compete for attention with other hobbies.
As it stands today, the call for location for oSC17 is probably 4 months away.
Where will osc16 take place? I saw the call for location, but I have not seen any proposals.
Le 04/06/2015 21:58, Per Jessen a écrit :
Where will osc16 take place? I saw the call for location, but I have not seen any proposals.
back home in Nuremberg
jdd
Le 04/06/2015 20:07, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
On 06/04/2015 01:42 PM, jdd wrote:
could it not be the main OSC-16 subject?
Not really. First I am not convinced that just because the event is in Nuremberg we are going to get more contributors and members to oSC16
it's not the problem. You will get more contributors if the subject is important enough. OSC-17 location is probably not enough in itself, but how an OSC works and how it have to be done, I guess so
than we have over the last couple of years. Remember, no matter where the conference takes place the basic obstacles remain:
- Travel is expensive and TSP covers only X%
- It's over the weekend
- It requires taking vacation
- It cuts into family time
and then? this is true for any kind of things, you only (easy to say :-) have to rise the interest by the content.
Thus, IMHO, waiting with this discussion until oSC16 is too late if we want to continue.
this is a good reason :-)
Of course it is fair enough to say "we'll try and
figure it out at oSC16 and if there is a year break we are OK with it."
As it stands today, the call for location for oSC17 is probably 4 months away. I think it would also be fair to figure out if that should even happen.
well. so be it. We have to discuss this right now.
Questions: where are the main openSUSE grpups? In France I could easily receive a french mini meeting, because we couldn't probably get more than ten people and I can nearly receive them at home :-)
But to receive say 200 people, we need at least 5 people ready to work (and the more is the better), and I don't have them near me.
but having it now makes things much easier.
So the question we can discuss now is "what would make you come to OSC-17 if it was 5 month away? (of course nobody can say what he can do on 18 month), or what could have make you come to OSC-15 if it was done?
As an alternative, could we make national mini summits one year and OSC-XX the other one?
and how can we make local groups stronger on the beginning?
I know for me I come mainly to meet other openSUSE people face to face and discuss openSUSE things. The general purpose conference are interesting, but may not ne enough.
thanks jdd
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On 06/04/2015 03:58 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
we are going to get more contributors and members to oSC16 than we have over the last couple of years. Remember, no matter where the conference takes place the basic obstacles remain:
- Travel is expensive and TSP covers only X% - - It's over the
weekend - - It requires taking vacation - - It cuts into family time .....
Cost remains an issue, as is perhaps dedicating some vacation time to it, but otherwise they're not really "obstacles" as such - the openSUSE conference simply has to compete for attention with other hobbies.
Agreed.
As it stands today, the call for location for oSC17 is probably 4 months away.
Where will osc16 take place?
Nuremberg
The location was announced at oSC15 during the opening keynote.
I saw the call for location, but I have not seen any proposals.
Correct there were no proposals.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 02:07:30PM -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: [ 8< ]
But lets assume I am being too pessimistic and for some magical reason we are going to end up with a large number of contributors participating in oSC16, but lets exclude those contributors with @suse.com addresses that also happen to work in Nuremberg as these will significantly skew the picture because the have the "its local" advantage.
So why is http://devconf.cz/ in Brno? Cause it's this cheap or cause the beer is this good? Both are two good reason. But before the questions is writte I'll offer the answer: Cause Redhat has an office in that town.
Do this kind of events either at a location where SUSE and many developers will be present - Nuremberg or Praha - or do it in combination with an event like FOSDEM or Linuxtag (if there will be again one in 2017).
I don't think your view is pessimistic Robert. It's a realistic view to the event and it's the right point in time to have this dicussion and to drive the issue forward.
Cheers,
Lars
I think that is probably the most realistic way of thinking of it.
As the replies keep rolling in, I think two "tiers" are pretty clear:
1) if oSC keeps going, it should be held where the people are 2) the oS Summits in conjunction with larger events is something to continue to look at and refine (and promote?)
Keeping oSC where the people are would maybe mean it would be a smaller, more focused event. Maybe some help could be given to cover expenses for those extremely active contributors (I'm just throwing out ideas).
I maybe liken it to the TTP Summit which happens in Provo, UT, USA. Why is it there? I'd imagine because they have room to host it and that is where the people are or can be. oSC might benefit from a similar arrangement.
Sadly, due to helping organize another tech conference over that same time, I can't make the TTP event this year. I'm so bad at this.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Lars Müller lmuelle@suse.com wrote:
On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 02:07:30PM -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: [ 8< ]
But lets assume I am being too pessimistic and for some magical reason we are going to end up with a large number of contributors participating in oSC16, but lets exclude those contributors with @suse.com addresses that also happen to work in Nuremberg as these will significantly skew the picture because the have the "its local" advantage.
So why is http://devconf.cz/ in Brno? Cause it's this cheap or cause the beer is this good? Both are two good reason. But before the questions is writte I'll offer the answer: Cause Redhat has an office in that town.
Do this kind of events either at a location where SUSE and many developers will be present - Nuremberg or Praha - or do it in combination with an event like FOSDEM or Linuxtag (if there will be again one in 2017).
I don't think your view is pessimistic Robert. It's a realistic view to the event and it's the right point in time to have this dicussion and to drive the issue forward.
Cheers,
Lars
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Hello,
Sorry for the top post. It'll be really short. Why don't we consider to make an oSC every 2 years (or more, like Olympic Games)? I guess we'll be anxious to meet each other. Just a thought. Have fun, /S
2015-06-05 0:36 GMT+03:00 Robert Martens martenrt@mlc-wels.edu:
I think that is probably the most realistic way of thinking of it.
As the replies keep rolling in, I think two "tiers" are pretty clear:
- if oSC keeps going, it should be held where the people are
- the oS Summits in conjunction with larger events is something to
continue to look at and refine (and promote?)
Keeping oSC where the people are would maybe mean it would be a smaller, more focused event. Maybe some help could be given to cover expenses for those extremely active contributors (I'm just throwing out ideas).
I maybe liken it to the TTP Summit which happens in Provo, UT, USA. Why is it there? I'd imagine because they have room to host it and that is where the people are or can be. oSC might benefit from a similar arrangement.
Sadly, due to helping organize another tech conference over that same time, I can't make the TTP event this year. I'm so bad at this.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Lars Müller lmuelle@suse.com wrote:
On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 02:07:30PM -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: [ 8< ]
But lets assume I am being too pessimistic and for some magical reason we are going to end up with a large number of contributors participating in oSC16, but lets exclude those contributors with @suse.com addresses that also happen to work in Nuremberg as these will significantly skew the picture because the have the "its local" advantage.
So why is http://devconf.cz/ in Brno? Cause it's this cheap or cause the beer is this good? Both are two good reason. But before the questions is writte I'll offer the answer: Cause Redhat has an office in that town.
Do this kind of events either at a location where SUSE and many developers will be present - Nuremberg or Praha - or do it in combination with an event like FOSDEM or Linuxtag (if there will be again one in 2017).
I don't think your view is pessimistic Robert. It's a realistic view to the event and it's the right point in time to have this dicussion and to drive the issue forward.
Cheers,
Lars
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-- Sincerely, Bob Martens
Webmaster/Technician Martin Luther College http://mlc-wels.edu
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On 2015-06-06 00:47, Efstathios Iosifidis wrote:
Hello,
Sorry for the top post. It'll be really short.
But with 6 kilobytes of old quotes.
Why don't we consider to make an oSC every 2 years (or more, like Olympic Games)? I guess we'll be anxious to meet each other. Just a thought.
If someone misses the meeting for some reason he has to wait two years more for another chance...
Plus, Linux changes a lot in a year.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
Hey,
On 03.06.2015 18:33, Robert Schweikert wrote:
The intent of the openSUSE Conference (oSC) is/was to be an inward looking conference.
This might have been the charter but it was IMHO rarely executed like that. I would say we have had as many approaches to oSC as we had organizers. We had completely user-facing oSCs, we had community focused oSCs. We had events where this focus switched completely in the middle etc. etc. Same for the format, some of them where workshop driven, some nearly completely consisting of lectures.
We, as a community, have never really defined what oSC should be like and what the goal is, so every organizer went ahead and made their "version".
- While in the end we had a good turn out at oSC15, it took a
herculean effort to get there and I would say we did not meet the goal of having "..a significant number of contributors gather..".
True, the more significant question is why is that so?
- The most recent oSCs required an unbelievable effort by a very
small group of people. Each year we got lucky and found someone who was willing to take on the organization. But effectively we are in "burn mode", i.e. once someone organized the event they are completely and utterly burned out.
Which is to be expected when you organize the 'life' of ~250 people over the course of 4 days. This is a shitload of work, no matter how good you are at it. This is a full-time job and at the end you're going to be glad that it's over.
I think the question we should ask ourselves is how can we make this a little less grueling than it is now.
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter of
oSC".
Again, the most significant question is why are we?
- Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16?
I think the last couple of oSCs have shown that we desperately need to rethink the approach. What are the benefits of changing location and organizer teams, what are the drawbacks?
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand
it more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project"
I fail to understand what this would change for us as a community? Can you elaborate?
- What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top of
your list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present?
Like with every other event in life: oSC needs to be meaningful to the people, they need to take away something. For a tech conference this is for most people (a) personal connections, (b) knowledge and (c) entertainment.
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of
oSC?
I think that throwing inexperienced openSUSE/oSC organizers at it every year, giving them next to no directions and no structural support is the cause. This make organizing oSC a very daunting task with lots of loose ends. Usually that means that collaboration goes overboard first because collaboration takes a huge extra effort to set up.
Henne
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On 06/04/2015 04:45 PM, Lars Müller wrote:
On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 02:07:30PM -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: [ 8< ]
But lets assume I am being too pessimistic and for some magical reason we are going to end up with a large number of contributors participating in oSC16, but lets exclude those contributors with @suse.com addresses that also happen to work in Nuremberg as these will significantly skew the picture because the have the "its local" advantage.
So why is http://devconf.cz/ in Brno? Cause it's this cheap or cause the beer is this good? Both are two good reason. But before the questions is writte I'll offer the answer: Cause Redhat has an office in that town.
Correct, but RedHat also organizes devconf, AFAIK.
Do this kind of events either at a location where SUSE and many developers will be present - Nuremberg or Praha -
Yes, doing so would certainly provide an incentive to at least those contributors with @suse.com addresses to show up as the event would be local. However, as it stands today
- - SUSE is probably not interested in organizing oSC year after year - - we do not have a sufficient number of volunteers in either Nuremberg or Prague to even have oSC as an alternating event in these places
Of course there is always the possibility that we approach SUSE and indicate the possibility that oSC with it's current charter and approach to organization cannot stand alone and thus if it is to move forward it will require help.
or do it in combination with an event like FOSDEM or Linuxtag (if there will be again one in 2017).
Yes, a co-location with another event is a potential option. That may or may not include a change in the charter of oSC.
I don't think your view is pessimistic Robert. It's a realistic view to the event and it's the right point in time to have this dicussion and to drive the issue forward.
Thanks, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
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On 06/08/2015 08:58 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 03.06.2015 18:33, Robert Schweikert wrote:
<snip>
- While in the end we had a good turn out at oSC15, it took a
herculean effort to get there and I would say we did not meet the goal of having "..a significant number of contributors gather..".
True, the more significant question is why is that so?
I think at least part of the answer is in the responses in the thread "letter to people not accepted to be a member" that jdd started
- - Travel is expensive - - Other priorities, family, other hobbies,.... - - One may have to take vacation .....
Nothing really out of the ordinary I would say. I would also go as far as saying that we all face the same questions/choices every time oSC comes around. For those that do attend the choices are different and probably the starting position is different.
There is certainly no universal answer. Everyone is going to have a different level of expenses they will be willing to tolerate for example .
Obviously we also have certain things in common. Interest for the openSUSE project. Given that the published videos get a good number of viewing I'd also say that the content is interesting to people.
Therefore, I would say that if we want to have more contributors from around the world join we probably have to do better on the money front with TSP potentially covering more of the travel expenses. If that is an option I do not know.
- The most recent oSCs required an unbelievable effort by a very
small group of people. Each year we got lucky and found someone who was willing to take on the organization. But effectively we are in "burn mode", i.e. once someone organized the event they are completely and utterly burned out.
Which is to be expected when you organize the 'life' of ~250 people over the course of 4 days. This is a shitload of work, no matter how good you are at it. This is a full-time job and at the end you're going to be glad that it's over.
I think the question we should ask ourselves is how can we make this a little less grueling than it is now.
I agree. The answer is probably more structure, i.e. e recipe that someone can follow. It will still be hard. Also having people that will do the promotion as part of their contributions to the openSUSE project. As it stands today we have almost no marketing and promotion of the project and thus for oSC those that organize the event also have to do that part rather than providing an existing promotion team with information.
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter
of oSC".
Again, the most significant question is why are we?
- Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16?
I think the last couple of oSCs have shown that we desperately need to rethink the approach. What are the benefits of changing location and organizer teams, what are the drawbacks?
Yup, hopefully this discussion will bring about answers or a potential direction for this.
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand
it more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project"
I fail to understand what this would change for us as a community? Can you elaborate?
If I take oSC 15 as an example, for a long time the event was primarily promoted within the openSUSE community. Only after it was obvious that we are not going to have a sufficient number of existing community members be present, did the marketing of the event take on the approach of reaching out to other parts of the FOSS community. With a changed charter this "reach out to others" would be there from the get go.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the openSUSE community
vs.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the FOSS community
- What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top
of your list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present?
Like with every other event in life: oSC needs to be meaningful to the people, they need to take away something. For a tech conference this is for most people (a) personal connections, (b) knowledge and (c) entertainment.
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of
oSC?
I think that throwing inexperienced openSUSE/oSC organizers at it every year, giving them next to no directions and no structural support is the cause. This make organizing oSC a very daunting task with lots of loose ends. Usually that means that collaboration goes overboard first because collaboration takes a huge extra effort to set up.
Agreed a better structure would definitely help. How can we build this structure?
For me part of that structure would also be per-existing teams, like a marketing/promotion team that promotes openSUSE anyway and promoting oSC is just part of what they do. Another part of the structure would be the handling of printing banners and the design of web and printed promotion material. With web page creation, registration handling, talk submission etc. we have made great strides and are will on the way to have everything in place.
The two key points probably narrow down to this: - - From an organizers point of view we have to have more structure and better support from the project - - From an attendees point of view we probably need to look at TSP changes for oSC
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Le 08/06/2015 19:52, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
Therefore, I would say that if we want to have more contributors from around the world join we probably have to do better on the money front with TSP potentially covering more of the travel expenses. If that is an option I do not know.
this is probably only one factor and not the most important, yet any thing that makes it better would be good.
the way people travel changed in the last years. Now one can travel for cheap, but have to book a pretty long time in advance, so the TSP should first be started much sooner. An other solution to the same problem could be "mnage the flight, we manage the room", because it's pretty hard to synchronize flight and room.
but this can be done with some brainstorming at any moment, the sooner the better
I agree. The answer is probably more structure, i.e. e recipe that someone can follow. It will still be hard. Also having people that will do the promotion as part of their contributions to the openSUSE project.
I think the solution is not exactly this. A good organization need at least 5 people, better ten, but 5 (as main group) is already pretty good. We should also have two or three SUSE or board designated (,), experts to help very soo in the project, ti make clear to the organizer what need to be done.
But the only solution to have this is to build on a preexistent local group. We have to find some organization somewhere that can do the job, not an individual. And may be it's on the beginning what we have to do: build local groups. Ubuntu is able to send on nearly any meeting a group of five or so people with furnitures (looks sometime like a supermarket, no may be to follow).
building local group could be started by promoting local meetings. Lt's say: I could ten years ago find people to organize the coming on Toulouse of Richard Stalmann (just one day).
I could probably setup a one day conference on the subject "the openSUSE board: how openSUSE works", if two or three members of the board could come, I'm pretty sure I could find 50 people for the attendence.
In Toulouse, it's not to be done, because the main local Linux user grpup is mostly ubuntu.
It's just example, but could be discussed here. First build a local group, then ask this group to organize an OSC, then support the group to build on this.
for sure it's easier to say than to do...
As it stands today we have almost no marketing and promotion
of the project
and first re-building a marketting team is obvious :-)
If I take oSC 15 as an example, for a long time the event was primarily promoted within the openSUSE community. Only after it was obvious that we are not going to have a sufficient number of existing community members be present, did the marketing of the event take on the approach of reaching out to other parts of the FOSS community. With a changed charter this "reach out to others" would be there from the get go.
we could also think of the contrary: make a closed event, with limited attendence (100 people?) you will see many people asking to come :-))
For me part of that structure would also be per-existing teams, like a marketing/promotion team that promotes openSUSE anyway and promoting oSC is just part of what they do.
sure
anyway all this are only ideas, but I glad we can have this discussion now. The other thread "why are we here" may also be very important
jdd
Moin,
On 08.06.2015 19:52, Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 06/08/2015 08:58 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 03.06.2015 18:33, Robert Schweikert wrote:
- While in the end we had a good turn out at oSC15, it took a
herculean effort to get there and I would say we did not meet the goal of having "..a significant number of contributors gather..".
True, the more significant question is why is that so?
I think at least part of the answer is in the responses in the thread "letter to people not accepted to be a member" that jdd started
- Travel is expensive
- Other priorities, family, other hobbies,....
- One may have to take vacation
And that was that much different in 2013? I doubt that...
There is certainly no universal answer.
I'm pretty sure there are universal aspects we can change so people lean more on the side of going to oSC despite their personal difficulties like money, vacation or whatnot. If we want to continue we should figure out what those aspects are.
Given that the published videos get a good number of viewing I'd also say that the content is interesting to people.
Obviously not interesting enough for an on-site visit which is our 'problem'.
Therefore, I would say that if we want to have more contributors from around the world join we probably have to do better on the money front with TSP potentially covering more of the travel expenses.
Sounds like one of the things we could try yes. Cheaper to reach places with cheaper options to spend the night (without airbeds) might be another thing. Or group travel arrangements like we do from Nürnberg. Early bird tickets with Hotel vouchers. There are tons of things you can try for the travel 'issue' alone.
- The most recent oSCs required an unbelievable effort by a very
small group of people.
I think the question we should ask ourselves is how can we make this a little less grueling than it is now.
I agree. The answer is probably more structure, i.e. e recipe that someone can follow.
For instance. For now it was also up to the organizers to rally the openSUSE community (admins, promotion, news, video team) to help them with the event, we could make sure that those teams have recipes too.
It will still be hard.
Like I've said, it'll never be easy...
As it stands today we have almost no marketing and promotion of the project and thus for oSC
Yeah that one is a heavy burden on every good deed we do :-/ And I don't really see anyone that is interested in changing this. Not even SUSE...
those that organize the event also have to do that part
There are tons of things we leave organizers alone with. I guess this stems from oSC{11,12,13} where we had huge pools of community members that we could let handle everything alone. But for oSC{14,15} I must say that I'm personally ashamed of the level of "support" our community provided to Svebor and Hans. You can't admire/thank them enough for bull-dozing through this tremendous task anyway :-/
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand
it more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project"
I fail to understand what this would change for us as a community? Can you elaborate?
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the openSUSE community
vs.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the FOSS community
But that would also mean that you have to make the event interesting to the FOSS community. I doubt that we can pull this off (all general FOSS events except FOSDEM struggle to attract people) and I still fail to see the benefit for us.
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of
oSC?
I think that throwing inexperienced openSUSE/oSC organizers at it every year, giving them next to no directions and no structural support is the cause.
Agreed a better structure would definitely help. How can we build this structure?
Figure out who we need/can involve, then sit down and come up with one. How about a Hackathon?
Henne
On 5 June 2015 at 02:15, Lars Müller lmuelle@suse.com wrote:
So why is http://devconf.cz/ in Brno? Cause it's this cheap or cause the beer is this good?
Practical fact is currency I believe. :-) i) CZ currency [value wise] is lower than Euro i.e. advantage for organizers to utilize the budget more efficiently. ii) Being affordable currency, attracts more attendees from nearby countries. iii) Not all contributors,FOSS members from non Euro zone can afford to spend in Euro's during the conference in general. Applicable specially to students who are coming on their own.
Regards, Amey.
On Mon, 2015-06-08 at 13:52 -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 06/08/2015 08:58 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 03.06.2015 18:33, Robert Schweikert wrote:
<snip> > > > <snip> .
Obviously we also have certain things in common. Interest for the openSUSE project. Given that the published videos get a good number of viewing I'd also say that the content is interesting to people.
Therefore, I would say that if we want to have more contributors from around the world join we probably have to do better on the money front with TSP potentially covering more of the travel expenses. If that is an option I do not know.
Speaking only for myself, the dollar value that TSP has provided has been fine, it's just been timeframe/administration that has made it difficult for me. And probably something to look at.
Just by way of explanation of what I mean...
I intended to attend oSC15, and started looking at airfare/hotels/etc starting in January, and found a pretty good fare for $x towards mid -February. And I applied for TSP in Late-Feb/Early-March. Unfortunately, responses weren't given by TSP until April, By that time, airfare costs for me had basically tripled. (I wasn't in a financial situation this year in order to absorb that extra cost myself, or purchase the lower priced airfare, back in February without being assured TSP would help out.)
I don't know how many other folks were in this situation, but international travel being what it is, I'd say looking at doing reviews/approvals earlier than a month before the event could certainly help.
- The most recent oSCs required an unbelievable effort by a very
small group of people. Each year we got lucky and found someone who was willing to take on the organization. But effectively we are in "burn mode", i.e. once someone organized the event they are completely and utterly burned out.
Which is to be expected when you organize the 'life' of ~250 people over the course of 4 days. This is a shitload of work, no matter how good you are at it. This is a full-time job and at the end you're going to be glad that it's over.
I think the question we should ask ourselves is how can we make this a little less grueling than it is now.
I agree. The answer is probably more structure, i.e. e recipe that someone can follow. It will still be hard. Also having people that will do the promotion as part of their contributions to the openSUSE project. As it stands today we have almost no marketing and promotion of the project and thus for oSC those that organize the event also have to do that part rather than providing an existing promotion team with information.
- From my perspective we are failing at "fulfilling the charter
of oSC".
Again, the most significant question is why are we?
- Should the effort be made to continue oSC past oSC16?
I think the last couple of oSCs have shown that we desperately need to rethink the approach. What are the benefits of changing location and organizer teams, what are the drawbacks?
Yup, hopefully this discussion will bring about answers or a potential direction for this.
- Should we strive to change the charter/nature of oSC and brand
it more as a "FOSS conference organized by the openSUSE project"
I fail to understand what this would change for us as a community? Can you elaborate?
If I take oSC 15 as an example, for a long time the event was primarily promoted within the openSUSE community. Only after it was obvious that we are not going to have a sufficient number of existing community members be present, did the marketing of the event take on the approach of reaching out to other parts of the FOSS community. With a changed charter this "reach out to others" would be there from the get go.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the openSUSE community
vs.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the FOSS community
- What would it take to raise oSC attendance closer to the top
of your list, given the other reasons listed above plus your own are still present?
Like with every other event in life: oSC needs to be meaningful to the people, they need to take away something. For a tech conference this is for most people (a) personal connections, (b) knowledge and (c) entertainment.
- What prevents people from contributing to the organization of
oSC?
I think that throwing inexperienced openSUSE/oSC organizers at it every year, giving them next to no directions and no structural support is the cause. This make organizing oSC a very daunting task with lots of loose ends. Usually that means that collaboration goes overboard first because collaboration takes a huge extra effort to set up.
Agreed a better structure would definitely help. How can we build this structure?
For me part of that structure would also be per-existing teams, like a marketing/promotion team that promotes openSUSE anyway and promoting oSC is just part of what they do. Another part of the structure would be the handling of printing banners and the design of web and printed promotion material. With web page creation, registration handling, talk submission etc. we have made great strides and are will on the way to have everything in place.
The two key points probably narrow down to this:
- From an organizers point of view we have to have more structure and
better support from the project
- From an attendees point of view we probably need to look at TSP
changes for oSC
Later, Robert
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/06/15 06:48, Shawn W Dunn wrote:
Speaking only for myself, the dollar value that TSP has provided has been fine, it's just been timeframe/administration that has made it difficult for me. And probably something to look at.
Just by way of explanation of what I mean...
thanks for telling it
I intended to attend oSC15, and started looking at airfare/hotels/etc starting in January, and found a pretty good fare for $x towards mid -February. And I applied for TSP in Late-Feb/Early-March. Unfortunately, responses weren't given by TSP until April, By that time, airfare costs for me had basically tripled. (I wasn't in a financial situation this year in order to absorb that extra cost myself, or purchase the lower priced airfare, back in February without being assured TSP would help out.)
I don't know how many other folks were in this situation, but international travel being what it is, I'd say looking at doing reviews/approvals earlier than a month before the event could certainly help.
+1
+ dormitory decision (ok you are free but TSP will help you only for this amount ... for sure it was another "new" point in osc15)
Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Moin,
On 08.06.2015 19:52, Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 06/08/2015 08:58 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 03.06.2015 18:33, Robert Schweikert wrote:
- While in the end we had a good turn out at oSC15, it took a
herculean effort to get there and I would say we did not meet the goal of having "..a significant number of contributors gather..".
True, the more significant question is why is that so?
I think at least part of the answer is in the responses in the thread "letter to people not accepted to be a member" that jdd started
- Travel is expensive
- Other priorities, family, other hobbies,....
- One may have to take vacation
And that was that much different in 2013? I doubt that...
There is certainly no universal answer.
I'm pretty sure there are universal aspects we can change so people lean more on the side of going to oSC despite their personal difficulties like money, vacation or whatnot. If we want to continue we should figure out what those aspects are.
Salü,
We have to recognise that the openSUSE conference competes with other hobbies for attention. Make it sufficently interesting, and people will come.
In a previous professional life I attended a number of conferences such as SHARE and GUIDE. These were, in my opinion, used for exchanges between professionals as well between suppliers and professionals. I.e. IBM would show off their newest stuff, and the sysprogs would show off their latest project or stats or whathaveyou. There was almost always a lot of take-home information and ideas.
It's an entirely unfair comparison, but if we could provide "a lot of take-home information and ideas" too, that might be a good start.
Hello,
Am Dienstag, 9. Juni 2015 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:
On 08.06.2015 19:52, Robert Schweikert wrote:
<snip>
Given that the published videos get a good number of viewing I'd also say that the content is interesting to people.
Obviously not interesting enough for an on-site visit which is our 'problem'.
Maybe the problem is that we don't have videos of the hallway track ;-) The talks are interesting, no doubt, but the real value of a conference is meeting people in person - either just to see the face behind the mail address, or to discuss and solve technical problems. That's nothing you can do over video, and it's also something that can't be measured in money.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the openSUSE community
vs.
oSC by the openSUSE Community for the FOSS community
Maybe we need something between those two extremes.
But that would also mean that you have to make the event interesting to the FOSS community. I doubt that we can pull this off (all general FOSS events except FOSDEM struggle to attract people) and I still fail to see the benefit for us.
Cross-distro topics might be interesting and bring benefit for all involved distros.
Just as an example, Debian is currently working on getting reproducable builds [1] - something we have solved with OBS since some years, so they could probably benefit from some openSUSE input. OTOH, they came up with some interesting ideas like setting the timestamps to the last changelog entry[2] with the goal to make the resulting package exactly the same binary (for comparison: our build-compare is a bit more fuzzy and ignores timestamps and some other details).
To sum this up - both can learn from each other, and both can end up with something better than before. And even if it doesn't happen this way, personal contact is worth a lot and can make our life easier - for example by sharing patches between package maintainers of several distros or looking at and helping with each other's bugreports.
A good start might be to visit "foreign" conferences. Speaking of that...
DebConf will be in Heidelberg, Germany this year [3], and I'll be there at least on some days. The primary reason is to meet some upstream AppArmor developers, but I'm also looking forward to learn some things about how Debian does $whatever.
In case someone wants to give a talk at DebConf - the CfP is open until June 15 (yes, that means only 5 days left!). Given what Debian has to build their packages (and especially what they do _not_ have), I have a feeling that an OBS talk would be interesting ;-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
PS: no worries - I'm not going to switch to Debian ;-)
[1] https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds
[2] personally, I'd take the timestamp of the newest source file to cover cases without a changelog entry, but that's a technical detail
[3] http://debconf15.debconf.org/
Le 10/06/2015 22:55, Christian Boltz a écrit :
Maybe the problem is that we don't have videos of the hallway track ;-)
no video, but photos, yes :-)
http://dodin.info/piwigo/picture.php?/109481-dsc04466_29864/category/5824
:-) jdd
-
Amey Abhyankar -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Efstathios Iosifidis -
Françoise Wybrecht -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Lars Müller -
PatrickD Garvey -
Per Jessen -
Robert Martens -
Robert Schweikert -
Shawn W Dunn -
Vincent Untz