Hi,
I sent following mail on Monday, but something is broken in my setup so it never arrived. As discussions are still ongoing, resending.
Hi everybody,
as you all know, we have a group of contributors that are eligible to participate in elections, have @opensuse.org mail and other perks - yes I'm talking about openSUSE Members. We have now about 600 of them, but as you can see[1] in last openSUSE Board elections only 150 of them voted.
This could mean two things - either most of the members are not interested in elections or plenty of them are simply no longer around. I guess the truth is somewhere in middle. But it would be nice to know. At some point we might need to take some project wide decisions and it would be great to know at that point how many of the still active members voted.
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback would be appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to let the project members decide.
To answer some of the obvious questions:
Q: Shouldn't we retire inactive members anyway and measure their activity?
A: No, it's too hard, too subjective and it could bother people that we cannot measure automatically. Automatic measurement is just an indicator that those people are no longer interested, but they might be just working on project aspects we cannot measure.
Q: Wouldn't it offend active contributors if they will be falsely accused of not being interested?
A: I hope not. If period will be long enough (1 year) and if we monitor even mailing lists, people will usually show up somewhere...
Q: Doesn't it change the meaning of the openSUSE Member?
A: Kind of yes. So far once you got a membership status, it was forever. Now it would be forever as long as you are interested. No big change, but still a little difference.
Q: What if mail with warning gets lost?
A: If you loose your membership by accident by loosing an e-mail, you can still contact membership committee and as a retired member you will be reinstated immediately without voting/verification that takes time. And you should fix your e-mail in connect in that case ;-)
[1] https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/read/RBrownSUSE/46342/opensuse-board-e...
On 06/04/2015 08:13 AM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi,
I sent following mail on Monday, but something is broken in my setup so it never arrived. As discussions are still ongoing, resending.
great idea to action (to have a better idea of "active" members)
very clear explanations,
thank you Michal & board
Hi everybody,
as you all know, we have a group of contributors that are eligible to participate in elections, have @opensuse.org mail and other perks - yes I'm talking about openSUSE Members. We have now about 600 of them, but as you can see[1] in last openSUSE Board elections only 150 of them voted.
This could mean two things - either most of the members are not interested in elections or plenty of them are simply no longer around. I guess the truth is somewhere in middle. But it would be nice to know. At some point we might need to take some project wide decisions and it would be great to know at that point how many of the still active members voted.
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback would be appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to let the project members decide.
To answer some of the obvious questions:
Q: Shouldn't we retire inactive members anyway and measure their activity?
A: No, it's too hard, too subjective and it could bother people that we cannot measure automatically. Automatic measurement is just an indicator that those people are no longer interested, but they might be just working on project aspects we cannot measure.
Q: Wouldn't it offend active contributors if they will be falsely accused of not being interested?
A: I hope not. If period will be long enough (1 year) and if we monitor even mailing lists, people will usually show up somewhere...
Q: Doesn't it change the meaning of the openSUSE Member?
A: Kind of yes. So far once you got a membership status, it was forever. Now it would be forever as long as you are interested. No big change, but still a little difference.
Q: What if mail with warning gets lost?
A: If you loose your membership by accident by loosing an e-mail, you can still contact membership committee and as a retired member you will be reinstated immediately without voting/verification that takes time. And you should fix your e-mail in connect in that case ;-)
+1
On 06/04/2015 08:13 AM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi,
I sent following mail on Monday, but something is broken in my setup so it never arrived. As discussions are still ongoing, resending.
(....)
I missed the first one, sorry.
This is very good. I just have a note: look at the membership page, losing membership is already on the rules.
what we should have automatically is a warning sent to the membership commity (may be also a more official membership commity?).
it's a bit for this that I asked about (thread "letter to non active openSUSE members")
otherwise I agree on all of this
jdd
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions. What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback would be appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to let the project members decide.
First thought - a lot of effort for very little gain.
If the number of inative/active members is really an issue, why not just write to every once a year and ask them to confirm their membership?
Per Jessen - 9:00 4.06.15 wrote:
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions. What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback would be appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to let the project members decide.
First thought - a lot of effort for very little gain.
If the number of inative/active members is really an issue, why not just write to every once a year and ask them to confirm their membership?
Well, there is plenty of data lying around so it shouldn't be that hard to send this mail only to people we have no data about and avoid asking people who are loudly working hard on the project.
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Per Jessen - 9:00 4.06.15 wrote:
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions. What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback would be appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to let the project members decide.
First thought - a lot of effort for very little gain.
If the number of inative/active members is really an issue, why not just write to every once a year and ask them to confirm their membership?
Well, there is plenty of data lying around so it shouldn't be that hard to send this mail only to people we have no data about and avoid asking people who are loudly working hard on the project.
Okay, maybe I misinterpreted the effort involved. If this is low hanging fruit, and we can do it accurately, sure.
On June 4, 2015 2:13:59 AM EDT, Michal Hrusecky michal.hrusecky@opensuse.org wrote:
Hi,
I sent following mail on Monday, but something is broken in my setup so it never arrived. As discussions are still ongoing, resending.
Hi everybody,
as you all know, we have a group of contributors that are eligible to participate in elections, have @opensuse.org mail and other perks -
yes I'm
talking about openSUSE Members. We have now about 600 of them, but as
you can
see[1] in last openSUSE Board elections only 150 of them voted.
This could mean two things - either most of the members are not
interested in
elections or plenty of them are simply no longer around. I guess the
truth is
somewhere in middle. But it would be nice to know. At some point we
might need
to take some project wide decisions and it would be great to know at
that point
how many of the still active members voted.
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face
meeting
and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic
approximately
2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more.
Remember
when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or
if
he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just
clicking
on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback
would be
appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to
let the
project members decide.
To answer some of the obvious questions:
Q: Shouldn't we retire inactive members anyway and measure their
activity?
A: No, it's too hard, too subjective and it could bother people that
we cannot
measure automatically. Automatic measurement is just an indicator
that those
people are no longer interested, but they might be just working on
project
aspects we cannot measure.
Q: Wouldn't it offend active contributors if they will be falsely
accused of
not being interested?
A: I hope not. If period will be long enough (1 year) and if we
monitor even
mailing lists, people will usually show up somewhere...
Q: Doesn't it change the meaning of the openSUSE Member?
A: Kind of yes. So far once you got a membership status, it was
forever. Now
it would be forever as long as you are interested. No big change,
but still
a little difference.
Q: What if mail with warning gets lost?
A: If you loose your membership by accident by loosing an e-mail, you
can still
contact membership committee and as a retired member you will be
reinstated
immediately without voting/verification that takes time. And you
should fix
your e-mail in connect in that case ;-)
[1]
https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/read/RBrownSUSE/46342/opensuse-board-e...
If done it will be important to keep a good track of people's opensuse login(s), relevant email addresses, and irc handles. I can only assume that as people move from one email address to the next they often don't update their opensuse member contact info so there contributions become invisible.
Greg
greg.freemyer@gmail.com - 8:17 4.06.15 wrote:
...
If done it will be important to keep a good track of people's opensuse login(s), relevant email addresses, and irc handles. I can only assume that as people move from one email address to the next they often don't update their opensuse member contact info so there contributions become invisible.
Yep, nice side effect would be that it will remind people to keep up to date contact information.
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 5:41 AM, Michal Hrusecky Michal.Hrusecky@opensuse.org wrote:
greg.freemyer@gmail.com - 8:17 4.06.15 wrote:
...
If done it will be important to keep a good track of people's opensuse login(s), relevant email addresses, and irc handles. I can only assume that as people move from one email address to the next they often don't update their opensuse member contact info so there contributions become invisible.
Yep, nice side effect would be that it will remind people to keep up to date contact information.
If current contact information is the goal, contacting everyone on a regular schedule is the only way to full success.
PatrickD
On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:13:59 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi,
I sent following mail on Monday, but something is broken in my setup so it never arrived. As discussions are still ongoing, resending.
Hi everybody,
as you all know, we have a group of contributors that are eligible to participate in elections, have @opensuse.org mail and other perks - yes I'm talking about openSUSE Members. We have now about 600 of them, but as you can see[1] in last openSUSE Board elections only 150 of them voted.
This could mean two things - either most of the members are not interested in elections or plenty of them are simply no longer around. I guess the truth is somewhere in middle. But it would be nice to know. At some point we might need to take some project wide decisions and it would be great to know at that point how many of the still active members voted.
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
What do you think? As it will affect whole project some feedback would be appreciated. If it goes well, I would put it for project wide vote to let the project members decide.
To answer some of the obvious questions:
Q: Shouldn't we retire inactive members anyway and measure their activity?
A: No, it's too hard, too subjective and it could bother people that we cannot measure automatically. Automatic measurement is just an indicator that those people are no longer interested, but they might be just working on project aspects we cannot measure.
Q: Wouldn't it offend active contributors if they will be falsely accused of not being interested?
A: I hope not. If period will be long enough (1 year) and if we monitor even mailing lists, people will usually show up somewhere...
Q: Doesn't it change the meaning of the openSUSE Member?
A: Kind of yes. So far once you got a membership status, it was forever. Now it would be forever as long as you are interested. No big change, but still a little difference.
Q: What if mail with warning gets lost?
A: If you loose your membership by accident by loosing an e-mail, you can still contact membership committee and as a retired member you will be reinstated immediately without voting/verification that takes time. And you should fix your e-mail in connect in that case ;-)
[1] https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/read/RBrownSUSE/46342/opensuse-
board-election-20142015
When I was at Novell, I went through a similar process with the CNI program - we had almost the same set of problems - a status that lasted "forever" but was difficult to measure activity with.
This actually was impacting business, because we would need contract instructors, but had no way of knowing who was actively teaching, or if the contact information was even still valid.
Similar to what's being discussed here, we implemented an expiration and a set of requirements to be met on an ongoing basis. The program has changed a bit since I left that role, but we were able to refocus the program by performing an expiration on members we hadn't heard from in a while.
A few things that happened as a result:
1. A not insignificant number of people came out of the woodwork and got active again.
2. We created a really simple reinstatement process (get approval to teach a class from us in advance - we had specific per-course teaching requirements that had to be met to demonstrate knowledge of the material; teach the class and get reviews from the students). The goal was to make it as simple as process to come back if the candidate wanted to start teaching again. (Becoming a new instructor involved something called an Instructor Performance Evaluation, basically where we had to evaluate the prospective instructor's suitability to teach - reinstatement bypassed that requirement, which is generally a huge amount of preparation work on both sides.)
3. After the initial drop in program membership, we ended up with a group that was much more focused on the program's goals. Those who were active felt more valued, and if an instructor was needed to do a contract teach, we knew we had people we could count on to be available because they were actively involved in the program.
For the openSUSE project, a similar process, I think, would work well - reapplication for an inactive user would really just be a matter of showing some ongoing contribution, rather than a more formal evaluation of the contributions. Maybe skip the voting/verification process for someone who was a member in the past, or just do a spot check rather than a full vote/verification.
I would suggest not removing the @opensuse.org forwarder with expiration - since it's only a forwarder, it's not consuming resources, and for people who have been members in the past, having an address that might go away at some point makes the benefit much less useful.
Jim
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about. We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
Gesendet: Dienstag, 09. Juni 2015 um 14:21 Uhr Von: "Cornelius Schumacher" cschum@suse.de An: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Members retirement
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
Social side effects? Will you put the results on f***book?
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about. We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
Not sure if this is a valid measure. Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
My 2c Axel
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
* Cornelius Schumacher cschum@suse.de [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 06/09/2015 08:37 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Cornelius Schumacher cschum@suse.de [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
The simple solution there is to provide an 'abstain' option on votes.
- -- James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud openSUSE Member SUSE jmason@suse.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ SUSECon 2015: Register at susecon.com
* James Mason jmason@suse.com [06-09-15 12:28]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 06/09/2015 08:37 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Cornelius Schumacher cschum@suse.de [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
The simple solution there is to provide an 'abstain' option on votes.
But *only* addresses voting, which is/was a "sub-set" of membership.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 06/09/2015 01:15 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- James Mason jmason@suse.com [06-09-15 12:28]:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 06/09/2015 08:37 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Cornelius Schumacher cschum@suse.de [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
> > Many users do their work in the projects but do not > care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
The simple solution there is to provide an 'abstain' option on votes.
But *only* addresses voting, which is/was a "sub-set" of membership.
Well if voting is the "counter" for activity then that should be sufficient.
I don't think there is a strong push to have other privileges of membership, such as @opensuse.org, registered IRC cloak go away.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
James Mason wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 06/09/2015 08:37 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Cornelius Schumacher cschum@suse.de [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
The simple solution there is to provide an 'abstain' option on votes.
I thought we got a "None of ther above" option introduced, maybe I'm mistaken.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2015-06-09 17:37, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Cornelius Schumacher <> [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
I never knew that the main purpose of being a member was voting.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Carlos E. R. carlos.e.r@opensuse.org wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2015-06-09 17:37, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
- Cornelius Schumacher <> [06-09-15 11:23]:
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
But there is a problem here, also. One may choose not to vote as a way of voting;ie: against all candidates. Besides, while it *may* be a primary purpose, it was not originally or since to my understanding, a *definition* of membership. It was a privilege afforded members.
I never knew that the main purpose of being a member was voting.
That, resume fodder and the opensuse.org email address are the only 3 reasons know.
Greg
jdd - 23:38 9.06.15 wrote:
Le 09/06/2015 21:46, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
That, resume fodder and the opensuse.org email address are the only 3 reasons know.
and pride??
And IRC cloak ;-)
Gesendet: Dienstag, 09. Juni 2015 um 17:23 Uhr Von: "Cornelius Schumacher" cschum@suse.de An: opensuse-project@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Members retirement
On Tuesday 09 June 2015 14:32:14 Axel Braun wrote:
Many users do their work in the projects but do not care about politics, so they dont vote.
The primary purpose of the membership is to have a well-defined group of voters, so those who don't vote probably should not be members anyway. They can perfectly work on openSUSE without being members.
Beside of what others have stated in between, voting would be the least reason for me to join an openSource community. If thats your target, you better go to politic parties.
I think its more the spirit of community, maybe showing commitment and appreciation of the work being done. Bringing a project, based on shared ideas, towards a common goals. Having 'shorts tracks' to other members in terms of support and communication, compared to coming from outside. Building trust in people, even you may know them just from mailing lists or the OSC.
Similar as you may not just play or watch football, but as well join a club.
Cheers Axel
On Wednesday 10 June 2015 09:43:19 Axel Braun wrote:
Beside of what others have stated in between, voting would be the least reason for me to join an openSource community. If thats your target, you better go to politic parties.
I completely agree that voting is not an important reason to join the openSUSE community. But that's not what is meant here.
This is confusing being part of the community and being a formal "member". The status of being an official "openSUSE member" gives you voting rights, the email address and the IRC cloak, nothing else. So it is the equivalent of joining the "political openSUSE party" ;-)
But there is much more than the "members", there is the whole community who does things and works on common goals or who just feels as part and uses openSUSE happily. This is the group which is important.
We have reiterated many times that naming it "member" is misleading and has confused many people. My proposal to fix this is to lower the barrier of the membership so much that everybody who wants to be part of the community can be and is a member.
I think its more the spirit of community, maybe showing commitment and appreciation of the work being done. Bringing a project, based on shared ideas, towards a common goals. Having 'shorts tracks' to other members in terms of support and communication, compared to coming from outside. Building trust in people, even you may know them just from mailing lists or the OSC.
This describes very well how a healthy community feels and works. That's what we should focus on.
On Wed, 2015-06-10 at 10:54 +0200, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Wednesday 10 June 2015 09:43:19 Axel Braun wrote:
Beside of what others have stated in between, voting would be the least reason for me to join an openSource community. If thats your target, you better go to politic parties.
I completely agree that voting is not an important reason to join the openSUSE community. But that's not what is meant here.
This is confusing being part of the community and being a formal "member". The status of being an official "openSUSE member" gives you voting rights, the email address and the IRC cloak, nothing else. So it is the equivalent of joining the "political openSUSE party" ;-)
But there is much more than the "members", there is the whole community who does things and works on common goals or who just feels as part and uses openSUSE happily. This is the group which is important.
We have reiterated many times that naming it "member" is misleading and has confused many people. My proposal to fix this is to lower the barrier of the membership so much that everybody who wants to be part of the community can be and is a member.
Yes, "Voting member" and "Senior member" has been suggested as new term for this elevated role.
"Citizen" is also an alternative. Citizenship is something you have to apply for, it's more permanent and it grants you right to vote.
Or name this group: "Member of openSUSE Trustees" or "Member of the openSUSE Officials"
But yes, I too think "Member" is misleading. So does Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sense_of_community#Membership
Rolf
Has anyone considered what Fedora Project has done? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Open_Badges
At first, I thought they were cutesy and frivolous, but: 1) They identify what activities are appreciated by the Project/Community 2) They indicate someone has done something that the Project/Community values. which I think covers what has been indicated is desired for official member status in openSUSE.
Le 09/06/2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher a écrit :
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
yes, with a "blank" bulletin choice
jdd
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On 06/09/2015 08:21 AM, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I am not certain about the "social side-effects" but I am certain we will have people voice their preference for not being monitored. I do agree that it is effort but the monitoring is probably the gentler approach as opposed to the "vote monitoring", more on this below.
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about.
I have no problem with this approach, but ...
We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
The last time we had this proposal on the table, i.e. "vote or else", people had very strong concerns about the impression that they are being forced to vote to keep their membership active. Times change and maybe monitoring who votes is the lesser "evil" of a what ends up being some kind of monitoring solution.
Of course the simplest solution is still to send out an e-mail once a year to have people click a link if they are still interested in being an openSUSE member. This however may set the bar a little to low as it basically requires no effort.
Personally I favor the overall activity monitoring. The side effect of this should be that it makes it easier for the membership team to collect info for new application verification.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Robert Schweikert wrote:
The last time we had this proposal on the table, i.e. "vote or else", people had very strong concerns about the impression that they are being forced to vote to keep their membership active.
Initially, there was also a lack of a "None of the above" option.
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about. We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
Yes, the KDE e.V. rule is good.
Klaas
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On 06/09/2015 10:15 AM, Klaas Freitag wrote:
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about. We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
Yes, the KDE e.V. rule is good.
Sorry I don't get it, can you please explain your very strong opposition to "monitoring of activity" vs. "monitoring of voting activity".
- From my perspective one is being "monitored", but obviously there is a very clear and strong distinction for you between the two types of monitoring. I'd like to understand that distinction.
Thank you, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
On 09.06.2015 16:22, Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 06/09/2015 10:15 AM, Klaas Freitag wrote:
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about. We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
Yes, the KDE e.V. rule is good.
Sorry I don't get it, can you please explain your very strong opposition to "monitoring of activity" vs. "monitoring of voting activity".
Sure, thanks for asking back. Sorry for being over sensitive to that, but I would hate to be monitored how many mails I send, forum posts, package submits, friendly hugs, yelling to, lines committed etc pp.
There are a plenty of reasons why I do not like that: - Usually its not clear what is monitored. - It is usually unclear who has access to the data - Alone the knowledge that something is monitored is influencing peoples behaviour: "oh, I need two more package submissions to be ok to vote...". That is not what I want to have in sparetime activity. Either people do stuff because they love it or leave it.
But there are bigger problems: From experience it shows that conclusions that were drawn from data collections are mostly wrong. "Oh, Klaas does a lot of C++ lines, 10 times more than Cornelius! Klaas is a better C++ programmer than Cornelius." Correct? I should have used a class lib maybe, as the pro's do ;-)
Now you might say: "Well, that is not happening with the data of course!". Yes, not today, and also not tomorrow. Not while you are on the board. But things like this can change over time, over time data can get a different meaning, in the hand of different people.
Last but not least I would be very afraid about the reputation of openSUSE being a community of friendly people working on free software technologies, a bit nerdy, but technically great and nicely free. That can change quickly, and I remember very well how hard we were fighting the reputation of "(open)SUSE is controlled by Microsoft". It's a great achievement that we do not hear that any more so much. Let's do not endanger that, even thought that might be a bit of a paranoid-european-topic ;-)
All that is an unpleasant topic, we should get away from that again and find a straightforward solution for our problem. Sorry for bringing it actually up to that direction, not so helpful.
regards,
Klaas
From my perspective one is being "monitored", but obviously there is a very clear and strong distinction for you between the two types of monitoring. I'd like to understand that distinction.
Thank you, Robert
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 06/09/2015 10:43 AM, Klaas Freitag wrote:
On 09.06.2015 16:22, Robert Schweikert wrote:
On 06/09/2015 10:15 AM, Klaas Freitag wrote:
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
A much simpler way would be to just use participation in votes as a criteria. This also would be directly tied to what the membership is about. We could do something like putting everybody who hasn't voted for two consecutive board elections into an emeritus state without voting rights. This would keep the membership with voting rights to the active people.
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
Yes, the KDE e.V. rule is good.
Sorry I don't get it, can you please explain your very strong opposition to "monitoring of activity" vs. "monitoring of voting activity".
Sure, thanks for asking back. Sorry for being over sensitive to that, but I would hate to be monitored how many mails I send, forum posts, package submits, friendly hugs, yelling to, lines committed etc pp.
There are a plenty of reasons why I do not like that: - Usually its not clear what is monitored. - It is usually unclear who has access to the data - Alone the knowledge that something is monitored is influencing peoples behaviour: "oh, I need two more package submissions to be ok to vote...". That is not what I want to have in sparetime activity. Either people do stuff because they love it or leave it.
But there are bigger problems: From experience it shows that conclusions that were drawn from data collections are mostly wrong. "Oh, Klaas does a lot of C++ lines, 10 times more than Cornelius! Klaas is a better C++ programmer than Cornelius." Correct? I should have used a class lib maybe, as the pro's do ;-)
Now you might say: "Well, that is not happening with the data of course!". Yes, not today, and also not tomorrow. Not while you are on the board. But things like this can change over time, over time data can get a different meaning, in the hand of different people.
Last but not least I would be very afraid about the reputation of openSUSE being a community of friendly people working on free software technologies, a bit nerdy, but technically great and nicely free. That can change quickly, and I remember very well how hard we were fighting the reputation of "(open)SUSE is controlled by Microsoft". It's a great achievement that we do not hear that any more so much. Let's do not endanger that, even thought that might be a bit of a paranoid-european-topic ;-)
All that is an unpleasant topic, we should get away from that again and find a straightforward solution for our problem. Sorry for bringing it actually up to that direction, not so helpful.
Thanks for the info. Fair enough, and yes there are plenty of examples where things start out with good intention and then things go overboard. If the data does not exist it cannot be misused, I agree with that point.
Very helpful point from my point of view.
Later, Robert
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
On 09/06/15 16:43, Klaas Freitag wrote:
Sure, thanks for asking back. Sorry for being over sensitive to that, but I would hate to be monitored how many mails I send, forum posts, package submits, friendly hugs, yelling to, lines committed etc pp.
There are a plenty of reasons why I do not like that:
- Usually its not clear what is monitored.
- It is usually unclear who has access to the data
- Alone the knowledge that something is monitored is influencing peoples
behaviour: "oh, I need two more package submissions to be ok to vote...". That is not what I want to have in sparetime activity. Either people do stuff because they love it or leave it.
But there are bigger problems: From experience it shows that conclusions that were drawn from data collections are mostly wrong. "Oh, Klaas does a lot of C++ lines, 10 times more than Cornelius! Klaas is a better C++ programmer than Cornelius." Correct? I should have used a class lib maybe, as the pro's do ;-)
Now you might say: "Well, that is not happening with the data of course!". Yes, not today, and also not tomorrow. Not while you are on the board. But things like this can change over time, over time data can get a different meaning, in the hand of different people.
Last but not least I would be very afraid about the reputation of openSUSE being a community of friendly people working on free software technologies, a bit nerdy, but technically great and nicely free. That can change quickly, and I remember very well how hard we were fighting the reputation of "(open)SUSE is controlled by Microsoft". It's a great achievement that we do not hear that any more so much. Let's do not endanger that, even thought that might be a bit of a paranoid-european-topic ;-)
All that is an unpleasant topic, we should get away from that again and find a straightforward solution for our problem. Sorry for bringing it actually up to that direction, not so helpful.
This thread go in a direction that sound very close to an old discussion around karma (!! smile to Joss ;-) ) ...
(*) by the way (as this thread go in all directions), everybody know now that Joss (community manager) left ... and what about now & the future ? (I asked as he did many articles, news, marketing hackweek etc.)
so do we really have to care of "which member does more than another one ?" or "which member is voting or not ?" or which member etc.
or ok perhaps we do care, but : is it one of the 5 openSUSE priorities ? does the answers bring more fun ? more contributors ? more concrete results fore openSUSE ?
(for example "choose not to vote as a way of voting" ... ok it's great and ? ... what does it bring to the community (espacially when we have only 2 ppl accepting to be elected as a board member) ... we are a community of volonteers (not politics paid to discuss about the future)
Michal proposed an option ... just to know which members are away (and no more interested by openSUSE)
=> who could give an better idea of "how many activ members" means "openSUSE community" ?
(as most associations have a kinda financial cotisation to count that ... and we are happy to be able to separate money & member - that's great)
I would, for example, ask an optional question in the mail : if you are no more an activ member, do you want to tell us a reason (family, frustration, has chosen another distro ...) ?
and of course there are many ppl leaving because they were unsatisfied (it's a big big big challenge to be able to collaborate ... 2, 3, 10 or 200 members) ...
I imagine that all of us (members or/and contributors) have a list of frustrations & complains ... so the question from my point of vue, is not to give good points or bad points to members ... but to search how we could go over frustrations to build or rebuild or boost the community ... to create a future, no ?
(of course it remind me a white t-shirt I received : "to build a future to which we want to belong")
sorry ... no time to reread (sor forgive my english error)
have fun ;-)
2015-06-09 17:15 GMT+03:00 Klaas Freitag freitag@opensuse.org:
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
I agree on that with Klaas. On the other hand I search the contributions of the TSP applications manually. I even ask advocates if they know the person. I guess, it'll help me on that. :-)
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
On the other hand, GNOME Foundation has re-evaluation after 2 years. Every 2 years we send an application to renew our membership, saying what we did during the past 2 years and we have 2 contact references. I don't know what happens if not renew. Never been there.
Have fun, /S
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 06/09/2015 10:27 AM, Efstathios Iosifidis wrote:
2015-06-09 17:15 GMT+03:00 Klaas Freitag freitag@opensuse.org:
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
I agree on that with Klaas. On the other hand I search the contributions of the TSP applications manually. I even ask advocates if they know the person. I guess, it'll help me on that. :-)
In KDE e.V. we do it this way for many years and it works quite well.
On the other hand, GNOME Foundation has re-evaluation after 2 years. Every 2 years we send an application to renew our membership, saying what we did during the past 2 years and we have 2 contact references. I don't know what happens if not renew. Never been there.
This goes along the lines of saying that over a certain period of time you have to show that you would pass the application again. I think this is as fair as other approaches. The question then is if the listed contributions should be verified by the membership committee or if it is just accept.
However, even in this case there is data collection. At some level we are going to have to collect some data. Given the reasonable concern with a general "counter/monitor" we are going to have to walk a fine lin e.
Later, Robert
Have fun, /S
- -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo
Le 09/06/2015 17:59, Robert Schweikert a écrit :
However, even in this case there is data collection. At some level we are going to have to collect some data. Given the reasonable concern with a general "counter/monitor" we are going to have to walk a fine lin
membnership commity looks at data, but do not store it
jdd
Klaas Freitag - 16:15 9.06.15 wrote:
On 09.06.2015 14:21, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
On Thursday 04 June 2015 08:13:59 Michal Hrusecky wrote:
We discussed this topic at not so recent openSUSE Board Face to Face meeting and touched it on oSC 15 during project meeting. Also taking under consideration the responses that were provided to a similar topic approximately 2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more. Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and if he doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
Automatic monitoring of general activity is difficult, error-prone, and can have all kind of unintended social side effects. It would need quite some effort.
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
Well, there is quite some difference between monitoring I'm proposing and secret service. First of all, we don't need to store most of the data as they are easily accessible. Secondly, all those data are publicly available. And the use is not to evaluate "quality", but to simply test whether there is any activity at all. So we wouldn't bother active people.
Monitoring doesn't need to be perfect. If it fails, we will bother few more members with mails whether they are still around. And we can start with implementing the easy parts.
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
Apart from that membership is not just about voting, but also about getting nice e-mail address and irc cloak, which was actually main motivation for me to apply.
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
The way I read it there's no "measuring" - when you vote it is registered in your user profile. When it's time to check for inactive members, it's a simple sql query to pick the ones who did not vote in the most two recent elections. I don't see much invasion of my privacy in that.
Apart from that membership is not just about voting, but also about getting nice e-mail address and irc cloak, which was actually main motivation for me to apply.
I think the email-alias was also my main reason to apply, but I have since reverted to my own address. On my opensuse alias, I get mostly spam.
Per Jessen - 11:59 10.06.15 wrote:
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
The way I read it there's no "measuring" - when you vote it is registered in your user profile. When it's time to check for inactive members, it's a simple sql query to pick the ones who did not vote in the most two recent elections. I don't see much invasion of my privacy in that.
Well, technically it is doable, what I meant is that data I wanted to use to *notice* (probably much better world than measure) activity are public and everybody can see them and use them (and mine them), while information about voting is not public.
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Per Jessen - 11:59 10.06.15 wrote:
Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
The way I read it there's no "measuring" - when you vote it is registered in your user profile. When it's time to check for inactive members, it's a simple sql query to pick the ones who did not vote in the most two recent elections. I don't see much invasion of my privacy in that.
Well, technically it is doable, what I meant is that data I wanted to use to *notice* (probably much better world than measure) activity are public and everybody can see them and use them (and mine them), while information about voting is not public.
It must be possible to keep the voting indicators secret, out-of-sight for the public.
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On 2015-06-10 11:59, Per Jessen wrote:
I think the email-alias was also my main reason to apply, but I have since reverted to my own address. On my opensuse alias, I get mostly spam.
Yes, the alias is attractive. :-)
I get some spam, not much. Some is silently bounced by my ISP, the rest is filtered locally.
Your current alias, if it works like the ieee one, does virus checks, and perhaps spam checks.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2015-06-10 11:59, Per Jessen wrote:
I think the email-alias was also my main reason to apply, but I have since reverted to my own address. On my opensuse alias, I get mostly spam.
Yes, the alias is attractive. :-)
I get some spam, not much. Some is silently bounced by my ISP, the rest is filtered locally.
Your current alias, if it works like the ieee one, does virus checks, and perhaps spam checks.
Well, optionally yes, but I've asked them to switch it off, I do my own spamfiltering. :-)
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On 2015-06-10 14:57, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Your current alias, if it works like the ieee one, does virus checks, and perhaps spam checks.
Well, optionally yes, but I've asked them to switch it off, I do my own spamfiltering. :-)
opensuse.org email gets forwarded to my ISP account. This ISP has two spam barriers: one that we can configure and disable (I do), and another one I can't, which silently bounces emails with hard rules (things like no reverse dns, perhaps).
I notice this when I see messages from the mail lists that posts to me are bouncing. On some lists, like XFS, means automatic (silly) unsubscription.
The opensuse.org alias does no checking at all, AFAIK.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 10.06.2015 10:04, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
Well, there is quite some difference between monitoring I'm proposing and secret service. First of all, we don't need to store most of the data as they are easily accessible. Secondly, all those data are publicly available. And the use is not to evaluate "quality", but to simply test whether there is any activity at all. So we wouldn't bother active people.
Michal, I know that you are not the guy who wants to set up a secret service above us, no question.
The fact that the data is available publicly does not change anything in the discussion if openSUSE should use it for any decision making.
Now I am about to say: Well, if you're only wanna see if a user has sent a mail to a oo mailinglist its not monitoring of course. But is that still useful if you don't do it right?
Example: You know, I do not send emails to the list, but my contribution is to provide Cornelius with cold beer which allows him to send elaborated emails to this list (example!) - you would remove me... is that good? I will complain "I got removed but I am active!" and immediately people will come up with proposals how to enhance that: Also count empty bottles...
Not working. The more I think about that, the more I conclude for me that simply asking the people if they still want to be openSUSE members once a year or before every voting would serve us best.
regards, Klaas
Monitoring doesn't need to be perfect. If it fails, we will bother few more members with mails whether they are still around. And we can start with implementing the easy parts.
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
Apart from that membership is not just about voting, but also about getting nice e-mail address and irc cloak, which was actually main motivation for me to apply.
Klaas Freitag - 12:15 10.06.15 wrote:
On 10.06.2015 10:04, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
I can not believe that we're really discussing "automatic monitoring of activity". The day on that becomes active will be my last in openSUSE. No, we do not wanna do that. We do not want to have a secret service.
Well, there is quite some difference between monitoring I'm proposing and secret service. First of all, we don't need to store most of the data as they are easily accessible. Secondly, all those data are publicly available. And the use is not to evaluate "quality", but to simply test whether there is any activity at all. So we wouldn't bother active people.
Michal, I know that you are not the guy who wants to set up a secret service above us, no question.
The fact that the data is available publicly does not change anything in the discussion if openSUSE should use it for any decision making.
Now I am about to say: Well, if you're only wanna see if a user has sent a mail to a oo mailinglist its not monitoring of course. But is that still useful if you don't do it right?
Example: You know, I do not send emails to the list, but my contribution is to provide Cornelius with cold beer which allows him to send elaborated emails to this list (example!) - you would remove me... is that good? I will complain "I got removed but I am active!" and immediately people will come up with proposals how to enhance that: Also count empty bottles...
With my proposal we would send you the mail :-) And you wouldn't need to explain yourself. You just click on hey, I'm still interested.
Not working. The more I think about that, the more I conclude for me that simply asking the people if they still want to be openSUSE members once a year or before every voting would serve us best.
Yep, thats what I start from. I just wanted to have a default action - timer for people that do not respond - for example ended in witness protection or in some other way lost access to their account. And on top of that I didn't wanted bother people that are obviously active and we can easily automate some simple check for. So in your example, we wouldn't ask Cornelius to click on the link, just to you. So people like coolo will never recieve mail after just releasing new openSUSE asking him whether he is still interested.
regards, Klaas
Monitoring doesn't need to be perfect. If it fails, we will bother few more members with mails whether they are still around. And we can start with implementing the easy parts.
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
Apart from that membership is not just about voting, but also about getting nice e-mail address and irc cloak, which was actually main motivation for me to apply.
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On 2015-06-10 10:04, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Well, there is quite some difference between monitoring I'm proposing and secret service. First of all, we don't need to store most of the data as they are easily accessible. Secondly, all those data are publicly available. And the use is not to evaluate "quality", but to simply test whether there is any activity at all. So we wouldn't bother active people.
I agree.
Personally, I would be more concerned about measuring voting activity as votes are not public and thus I would consider measuring who voted as kinda privacy invasion.
Absolutely!
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Hello, On 04-Jun-2015 11:45 am, "Michal Hrusecky" michal.hrusecky@opensuse.org wrote:
2 years ago, we (in the board) think it would be a good idea to implement something to help with that. Automatically monitor openSUSE Members activity on mailing lists, OBS, bugzilla, maybe more.
Three years ago a similar feature request was made by Robert at openFATE - [openFATE 313229] Create infrastructure to recognize user contributions. I've marked it new and awaiting response from expert groups of openFATE.
Remember when we last saw openSUSE Member on any of those channels and
if he
doesn't show for for example one year, we can send him e-mail asking whether he still wants to be a member with a link to click to create artificial activity for the automat. And if he doesn't click on it in let's say month, we will retire him - he will be moved to openSUSE retired geekos group. If he comes back and want to be member again or if he was retired by accident, he can be made member again by just clicking on the link from the mail or by asking membership committee and they will approve him without any additional questions.
What do you think?
I propose that a program be written which scans the already available data and prepares a database about contributions made by respective contributor (no. of changes made in wiki, no. of mails sent in mailinglist, no. of packages built, etc).
Obviously the contributions like organising local meetings, etc won't be shown in the database, so the membership officials will have to check whether the user wiki page has mentioned those contributions.
If neither the database nor the user wiki page explains about contribution in previous year, then the official will send a mail demanding details of contributions. If still there is no reply then membership will be discontinued.
And as mentioned in the feature request, the given idea is already being implemented at github (http://github.com/priyanka-m/karma).
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