Re: [opensuse-gnome] Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
2. When I switch to gnome2-like environment, I am getting very angry. How can SUSE become as stupid as Ubuntu? The gnome2-like environment is almost the same as Ubuntu..... The menu, the task bar color and so on. Why can't SUSE keep its own uniques? The SUSE menu in 10.0 till 11.4 is quit nice and creative. Why did this 12.1 switch to stupid Ubuntu
like
style? This has nothing to do with Ubuntu: the default look and feel of the fallback mode has been created so that it is close to GNOME Shell.
We discussed if, for openSUSE, we wanted to keep that upstream decision, or choose to offer something closer to what we had before. And because we want to encourage people to use GNOME Shell, we decided to keep things this way.
Why do you encourage people to use GNOME SHELL? Is it more convenient or more beautiful to use it? At present, I found no reasons to switch to it. It is far behind GNOME2.X. As a Linux user and a professional design purpose user, I care more about the STABILITY and friendly interface. To me, the GNOME SHELL is much more suitable for tablet and entertainment, but not for ordinary daily work such as: office or computational work.
3. What's worse. The workspace switcher in gnome2-like environment is the same as 10.0 version: when we use "only show current workspace", it can only show ONE workspace, and others are all gone...... I just started the livecd to check, and things are fine here. Can you open the preferences of the workspace switcher, and tell us if you see this because there's only one workspace, or because the "only show current workspace" setting is set? Is this on a brand new install, on first login?
I update 12.1 to the latest version by command: zypper update after installation. And the problem is always there.
Thanks,
Vincent
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On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 10:03 +0100, Albert wrote:
Why do you encourage people to use GNOME SHELL? Is it more convenient or more beautiful to use it? At present, I found no reasons to switch to it. It is far behind GNOME2.X. As a Linux user and a professional design purpose user, I care more about the STABILITY and friendly interface. To me, the GNOME SHELL is much more suitable for tablet and entertainment, but not for ordinary daily work such as: office or computational work.
I couldn't disagree more. GNOME3 shell is far ahead of GNOME2 [which I've been using every day all day to do *work* since the Ximian days]. Shell is faster and cleaner and provides functionality GNOME2 never did [dynamic workspaces, overview mode, screencast recording, extensions, etc...]. Who can possibly miss the taskbar menu? I can't even imagine why. <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/05/fortnight-with-gnome3.html> <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/11/gaj-zeitgeist-opensuse-121.html> <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/12/gnome3-journal-extension_12.html> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-22 11:40, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
Who can possibly miss the taskbar menu? I can't even imagine why.
I do. I can't imagine why not. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7znMUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XM8QCeNjeOBY2/IBl6l/1vIVDmPp4c wWgAn3EXpSzeN0PTq6hCzUVkQLAdOQ0F =g79A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 10:03:23 +0100, Albert wrote:
Why do you encourage people to use GNOME SHELL? Is it more convenient or more beautiful to use it? At present, I found no reasons to switch to it. It is far behind GNOME2.X. As a Linux user and a professional design purpose user, I care more about the STABILITY and friendly interface. To me, the GNOME SHELL is much more suitable for tablet and entertainment, but not for ordinary daily work such as: office or computational work.
It's a good thing that Linux caters to people with different tastes, then, isn't it? I've got GNOME 3 running on 3 systems here at home, and after the initial adjustment period, I find I'm *very* productive with it. I find it to be stable, friendly, and highly usable. I can focus on running the applications (which, let's face it, is why people use a computer - not because they can futz with the desktop). But I'm not going to sit here and say it's wonderful for *everyone*. My needs from a DE are pretty straightforward, but I recognize they're not the same as everyone else's. But tell me, how does it help *anything* to say "Stupid 12.1" and "Stupid GNOME 3" and "Stupid this" and "Stupid that" and "Stupid the other"? That's not constructive feedback that anyone can do anything with other than say "Oh, Albert doesn't like this. What a shame." Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 02:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
I find it to be stable, friendly, and highly usable. I can focus on running the applications (which, let's face it, is why people use a computer - not because they can futz with the desktop).
I don't find it friendly. I have been with computers for at least 30 years, and I have seen a lot. I find that I have to learn again, and I don't find it intuitive. I do it simply because /they/ have choosen a new way for us, so I have to follow it or migrate. Thus I'll try to get used to G3, like it or not. I don't find that having to click on the top left, then another click to choose "applications" then to the top right to click on a category (on a touchpad, which means lifting my finger at least twice because once does not traverse the entire screen), and then reading a big list with small letters, left to right and top to bottom, to be ergonomic (and page-up/dn do not work). I do not find that easier than simply browsing a menu, an action to which I have been accustomed for uncountable years, on several operating systems, and which my fingers do fast with that lot of practice. Menus that are browsable with the keyboard as well. A time proved design! And yes, I also focus on running apps, not on the desktop. Or I did. I'm used to have a command line applet on which I type the name of the apps, or choose a previous entry. I can not add that applet, I don't know how to add applets to the panel. I also like an applet with the hour and the temperature, of several cities. Now I can't. I have two apps running now, one a terminal and another yelp. The terminal is not listed in the bar. That is also confusing. I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2). No, G3 distracts me from what I have to do and forces me to learn new Gnome desktop tricks I took for granted since 1997. It is a not welcomed extra work. So, no, I will not say "stupid" in public, even if I think it is. I know that voicing my opinion is pointless, because it has already been decided that this is the way to go. A decision on which users have no voice. So no, I will not say to those that rant in public that they should not. Because it is pointless. Even if I agree with some of the points, and disagree on the tone. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7z3PUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UolACgmGuSVyjNS50pvY4MQnLzLZxL l1IAn0250TfhzU04L44eavevFqwEDlHf =Grg3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
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On 2011-12-23 02:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
I find it to be stable, friendly, and highly usable. I can focus on running the applications (which, let's face it, is why people use a computer - not because they can futz with the desktop). I don't find it friendly. I have been with computers for at least 30 years, and I have seen a lot. I find that I have to learn again, and I don't find it intuitive. I do it simply because /they/ have choosen a new way for us, so I have to follow it or migrate. Thus I'll try to get used to G3,
I totally agree with Carlos' opinions On 12/23/2011 02:44 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: like it
or not.
I don't find that having to click on the top left, then another click to choose "applications" then to the top right to click on a category (on a touchpad, which means lifting my finger at least twice because once does not traverse the entire screen), and then reading a big list with small letters, left to right and top to bottom, to be ergonomic (and page-up/dn do not work).
I do not find that easier than simply browsing a menu, an action to which I have been accustomed for uncountable years, on several operating systems, and which my fingers do fast with that lot of practice. Menus that are browsable with the keyboard as well. A time proved design!
And yes, I also focus on running apps, not on the desktop. Or I did.
I'm used to have a command line applet on which I type the name of the apps, or choose a previous entry. I can not add that applet, I don't know how to add applets to the panel.
I also like an applet with the hour and the temperature, of several cities. Now I can't.
I have two apps running now, one a terminal and another yelp. The terminal is not listed in the bar. That is also confusing.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2).
No, G3 distracts me from what I have to do and forces me to learn new Gnome desktop tricks I took for granted since 1997. It is a not welcomed extra work.
So, no, I will not say "stupid" in public, even if I think it is. I know that voicing my opinion is pointless, because it has already been decided that this is the way to go. A decision on which users have no voice.
So no, I will not say to those that rant in public that they should not. Because it is pointless. Even if I agree with some of the points, and disagree on the tone.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
iEYEARECAAYFAk7z3PUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UolACgmGuSVyjNS50pvY4MQnLzLZxL l1IAn0250TfhzU04L44eavevFqwEDlHf =Grg3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 02:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote
I don't find that having to click on the top left, then another click to choose "applications" then to the top right to click on a category (on a touchpad, which means lifting my finger at least twice because once does not traverse the entire screen), and then reading a big list with small letters, left to right and top to bottom, to be ergonomic (and page-up/dn do not work).
You are apparently using Fallback. In Shell you just press <Meta> or <Alt>+<F1> type a few letters of the app name and hit enter. It is exactly what docks/appletts like Docky and GNOME-Do provided.
I do not find that easier than simply browsing a menu, an action to which I have been accustomed for uncountable years,
??? 'then-to-the-top-rick-click...another-click...read-list...another-click...' ... that is the *definition* of "simply browsing a menu".
Menus that are browsable with the keyboard as well. A time proved design!
Yes. And that is exactly what GNOME Shell overview provides.
I'm used to have a command line applet on which I type the name of the apps, or choose a previous entry. I can not add that applet, I don't know how to add applets to the panel.
Alt-F2 At least in GNOME-Shell that brings up a command line tool; which also supports history. I use this all the time to run commands with parameters.
I have two apps running now, one a terminal and another yelp. The terminal is not listed in the bar. That is also confusing.
There is a shell extension for a window-list; although I fail to understand the point. The user knows what applications they opened. They can go to overview mode, or Alt-Tab, or Alt-`. I was convinced I couldn't live without the taskbar. But the GNOME developers where correct, the window-list is useless.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2).
In shell they are allocated dynamically. You always have 1 more [an empty one]. Just go down and a new one will get created. You don't have to "add more", it just happens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 12:46, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 02:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote
I don't find that having to click on the top left, then another click to choose "applications" then to the top right to click on a category (on a touchpad, which means lifting my finger at least twice because once does not traverse the entire screen), and then reading a big list with small letters, left to right and top to bottom, to be ergonomic (and page-up/dn do not work).
You are apparently using Fallback. In Shell you just press <Meta> or <Alt>+<F1> type a few letters of the app name and hit enter. It is exactly what docks/appletts like Docky and GNOME-Do provided.
No, I'm not using fallback in the laptop. I get exactly what the help page shows, shell or whatever, I don't know the names. Fallback is what I get in my other install in vmware player. Yes, typing a few letters once the applications show does find applications, if you know their name. To know you have to press alt-f1 somebody has to tell you. And to know I can type names, I had to read it in instructions. Not intuitive, then.
I do not find that easier than simply browsing a menu, an action to which I have been accustomed for uncountable years,
??? 'then-to-the-top-rick-click...another-click...read-list...another-click...' ... that is the *definition* of "simply browsing a menu".
With shorter, compact lists that minimize movements (contrary to an array of big icons and tiny letters), sorted by hierarchies, and where the keyboard does work. How does the new system work with blind people?
Menus that are browsable with the keyboard as well. A time proved design!
Yes. And that is exactly what GNOME Shell overview provides.
I don't see a menu of applications anywhere, except in fallback mode.
I'm used to have a command line applet on which I type the name of the apps, or choose a previous entry. I can not add that applet, I don't know how to add applets to the panel.
Alt-F2 At least in GNOME-Shell that brings up a command line tool; which also supports history. I use this all the time to run commands with parameters.
Me to, but is not the same. Ah, and the session is not remembered, just noticed. It doesn't offer to save it on close.
I have two apps running now, one a terminal and another yelp. The terminal is not listed in the bar. That is also confusing.
There is a shell extension for a window-list; although I fail to understand the point. The user knows what applications they opened.
Not when they are dozens. I want to click on the bar and select the correct xterm, for example.
They can go to overview mode, or Alt-Tab, or Alt-`. I was convinced I couldn't live without the taskbar. But the GNOME developers where correct, the window-list is useless.
I digress.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2).
In shell they are allocated dynamically. You always have 1 more [an empty one]. Just go down and a new one will get created. You don't have to "add more", it just happens
Ah, all right. But I want then down and right, in a matrix of 3*4. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk70jOUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UUPACeNVdX+nwf3OsbZWkI5idvSdPE JMMAniws0XpYdL45+xK1hJm8mGH7ja/+ =hUmQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 15:15 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2011-12-23 12:46, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 02:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote Yes, typing a few letters once the applications show does find applications, if you know their name. To know you have to press alt-f1 somebody has to tell you. And to know I can type names, I had to read it in instructions. Not intuitive, then.
No, you do not need to know the name. The overview uses meta-data about the application. I type "music" and there are all the media players.
Menus that are browsable with the keyboard as well. A time proved design! Yes. And that is exactly what GNOME Shell overview provides. I don't see a menu of applications anywhere, except in fallback mode.
Correct. Menus are clunky, slow, and hard to navigate. But menus are available as extensions.
I'm used to have a command line applet on which I type the name of the apps, or choose a previous entry. I can not add that applet, I don't know how to add applets to the panel. Alt-F2 At least in GNOME-Shell that brings up a command line tool; which also supports history. I use this all the time to run commands with parameters. Me to, but is not the same.
Correct, it is different.
I have two apps running now, one a terminal and another yelp. The terminal is not listed in the bar. That is also confusing. There is a shell extension for a window-list; although I fail to understand the point. The user knows what applications they opened. Not when they are dozens. I want to click on the bar and select the correct xterm, for example.
<Meta> click-on-thumbnail. Vastly superior; the thumbnail actually lets me know which one I want verses "xterm" 5 fimes.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2). In shell they are allocated dynamically. You always have 1 more [an empty one]. Just go down and a new one will get created. You don't have to "add more", it just happens Ah, all right. But I want then down and right, in a matrix of 3*4.
GNOME3 doesn't do that. -- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us> Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 15:51, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 15:15 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
No, you do not need to know the name. The overview uses meta-data about the application. I type "music" and there are all the media players.
Good, and unknown.
Correct. Menus are clunky, slow, and hard to navigate. But menus are available as extensions.
Menus are fast and easy to navigate. Show me the extension rpm name for YaST.
<Meta> click-on-thumbnail.
Unknown feature.
Ah, all right. But I want then down and right, in a matrix of 3*4.
GNOME3 doesn't do that.
Backwards. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk70nscACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WskwCeN6gvVYxDlu50iIzLomLQgFfL YO0AoIobYieUejd1VLYbmvkcYQFddlE0 =md2y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 23.12.2011 02:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't find it friendly. I have been with computers for at least 30 years, and I have seen a lot. I find that I have to learn again, and I don't find it intuitive. I do it simply because/they/ have choosen a new way for us, so I have to follow it or migrate. Thus I'll try to get used to G3, like it or not.
It´s /their/ project, so /they/ have any right to choose a new way for their users. I know, GNOME 3 is very controversial and not accepted by everyone. *But* powerful alternatives exist. If KDE isn´t your type too, there´s Xfce which should work almost like GNOME 2. Btw, Linux Mint does a GNOME 3 fork which will look like GNOME 2.x but will use GNOME 3 infrastructure, maybe someone will package it for openSUSE too, so that you can use that instead of plain GNOME 3. Anyway, if your F1 issue still exists, a bugreport would be the best solution. cheers, --kdl -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 14:20, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
On 23.12.2011 02:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't find it friendly. I have been with computers for at least 30 years, and I have seen a lot. I find that I have to learn again, and I don't find it intuitive. I do it simply because/they/ have choosen a new way for us, so I have to follow it or migrate. Thus I'll try to get used to G3, like it or not.
It´s /their/ project, so /they/ have any right to choose a new way for their users.
I have issue with that way of thinking.
I know, GNOME 3 is very controversial and not accepted by everyone. *But* powerful alternatives exist. If KDE isn´t your type too, there´s Xfce which should work almost like GNOME 2. Btw, Linux Mint does a GNOME 3 fork which will look like GNOME 2.x but will use GNOME 3 infrastructure, maybe someone will package it for openSUSE too, so that you can use that instead of plain GNOME 3.
Lets hope they do.
Anyway, if your F1 issue still exists, a bugreport would be the best solution.
I'll have to. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk70iKIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VfVwCfTNnpJe2WhNhJIEL8JPAxbEZu Ce4AoIZ+dLyBQC7Liz1eNSdvSxCJZjEr =Cbio -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 14:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2011-12-23 14:20, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
I know, GNOME 3 is very controversial and not accepted by everyone. *But* powerful alternatives exist. If KDE isn´t your type too, there´s Xfce which should work almost like GNOME 2. Btw, Linux Mint does a GNOME 3 fork which will look like GNOME 2.x but will use GNOME 3 infrastructure, maybe someone will package it for openSUSE too, so that you can use that instead of plain GNOME 3.
Lets hope they do.
I'm not sure who you expect in this case who 'they' will be. Mint Linux for sure does. If you look at openSUSE, then the gnome team is very unlikely going to pick up that task. Gnome3 is big enough a stack to take care of (I think there was a stat mentioning something like 20% of packages in oS:Factory to be maintained by the gnome folks). It would be a perfect opportunity to step up and take on the task if you feel so badly about G3. Step up, take care of it! Package it (rpm packaging is not much more difficult than building and installing from source tarballs). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 15:08, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 14:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
It would be a perfect opportunity to step up and take on the task if you feel so badly about G3. Step up, take care of it! Package it (rpm packaging is not much more difficult than building and installing from source tarballs).
I don't have the skill-set to contribute in that way. Nor the time, that would mean stop my current contributions. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk70jYYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WSIACfXjs3JbKenfxFcz18ie4V5m4Q HTUAoIJxUS815jXdj2xn4g0i3aZX5oOt =8vor -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 15:08 +0100, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 14:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2011-12-23 14:20, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
I know, GNOME 3 is very controversial and not accepted by everyone. *But* powerful alternatives exist. If KDE isn´t your type too, there´s Xfce which should work almost like GNOME 2. Btw, Linux Mint does a GNOME 3 fork which will look like GNOME 2.x but will use GNOME 3 infrastructure, maybe someone will package it for openSUSE too, so that you can use that instead of plain GNOME 3. Lets hope they do. I'm not sure who you expect in this case who 'they' will be. Mint Linux for sure does.
At least a couple of the extensions Mint uses to implement that behavior are already available at ....drumroll..... <http://extensions.gnome.org> For one <https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/64/show-desktop-button/> And the appsearch <https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/95/appsearch/> Although that one may need some small tweaks to work on non-Mint. It can at least work on Ubuntu according to the comments. Although I'm puzzled what appsearch does that straight-up doesn't. Shell itself seems to search my apps just fine. -- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us> Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 23.12.2011 14:56, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2011-12-23 14:20, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
On 23.12.2011 02:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I don't find it friendly. I have been with computers for at least 30 years, and I have seen a lot. I find that I have to learn again, and I don't find it intuitive. I do it simply because/they/ have choosen a new way for us, so I have to follow it or migrate. Thus I'll try to get used to G3, like it or not.
It´s/their/ project, so/they/ have any right to choose a new way for their users. I have issue with that way of thinking.
But that´s the way FOSS-projects are going. Maybe the will find out that the majority of users detests GNOME shell and then change it, but as long as the majority seems to be happy with it, there won´t happen anything. Let´s wait what the GNOME 2 / 3 forks look like, maybe some frustrated users will find a new desktop ;-) happy holidays, --kdl -- Kim Leyendecker, openSUSE Wiki Team GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | leyendecker@opensuse.org http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 15:16, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
But that´s the way FOSS-projects are going. Maybe the will find out that the majority of users detests GNOME shell and then change it, but as long as the majority seems to be happy with it, there won´t happen anything.
For me, this top down, dictatorial design only serves the purpose of saying "look what good programmers we are", not to serve the users. That's my feeling.
Let´s wait what the GNOME 2 / 3 forks look like, maybe some frustrated users will find a new desktop ;-)
I hope. And I hope to see them here. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk70jqkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XNpACgkOksFy6QI/XsFWVJEua+Ad36 DisAnAopk8c5Zci4Es88Kv+swzpO/fXx =xng6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 15:22 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2011-12-23 15:16, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
But that´s the way FOSS-projects are going. Maybe the will find out that the majority of users detests GNOME shell and then change it, but as long as the majority seems to be happy with it, there won´t happen anything. For me, this top down, dictatorial design only serves the purpose of saying "look what good programmers we are", not to serve the users. That's my feeling.
FALSE. There is no "dictatorial design". There just isn't. Your claim is FALSE. There was *LOTS* of discussion, and commentary, and BLOG posts. There is a mailing list, an IRC channel, etc... There is no "dictatorial design". It *WAS* discussed and debated and discussed some more. Proof-of-concepts where floated and shot-down, and changed, and redone. *THEN* code was written. That cannot happen until a choice is made [and many Open Source projects die in the design stage due to the inability to make choices]. And once the choice is made - it is enshrined in the code. That *YOU* were not a participant or observer of those discussions does *NOT* a "dictatorial design" make. The discussions were open and public and many people participated. That I did not vote for Jimmy Carter for US president in 1977 [when I was 5 years old] does not make him a dictator.
Let´s wait what the GNOME 2 / 3 forks look like, maybe some frustrated users will find a new desktop ;-) I hope. And I hope to see them here.
-- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us> Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 09:39 -0500, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 15:22 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2011-12-23 15:16, Kim Leyendecker wrote:
But that´s the way FOSS-projects are going. Maybe the will find out that the majority of users detests GNOME shell and then change it, but as long as the majority seems to be happy with it, there won´t happen anything. For me, this top down, dictatorial design only serves the purpose of saying "look what good programmers we are", not to serve the users. That's my feeling.
FALSE. There is no "dictatorial design". There just isn't. Your claim is FALSE. There was *LOTS* of discussion, and commentary, and BLOG posts. There is a mailing list, an IRC channel, etc... There is no "dictatorial design". It *WAS* discussed and debated and discussed some more. Proof-of-concepts where floated and shot-down, and changed, and redone.
*THEN* code was written. That cannot happen until a choice is made [and many Open Source projects die in the design stage due to the inability to make choices]. And once the choice is made - it is enshrined in the code.
That *YOU* were not a participant or observer of those discussions does *NOT* a "dictatorial design" make. The discussions were open and public and many people participated.
That I did not vote for Jimmy Carter for US president in 1977 [when I was 5 years old] does not make him a dictator.
Let´s wait what the GNOME 2 / 3 forks look like, maybe some frustrated users will find a new desktop ;-) I hope. And I hope to see them here.
-- System & Network Administrator [ LPI & NCLA ] <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com> OpenGroupware Developer <http://www.opengroupware.us> Adam Tauno Williams
This has become such a boorish discussion. Everyone seems to want to position themselves on their given-choice side of the fence and dig their heels in instead of having any meaningful discussions on how to close the gap through courtesy, information-sharing and willingness to concede that the other party has valid points. All this amounts to is a lot of wasted bandwidth consumption and inbox-cleaning. I'm not completely happy with GNOME 3, and obviously not everyone is. I'm happy with the efforts the developers have contributed to GNOME 3, and obviously a number of people are happy too. Last I checked, developers were still human and don't have 100% of every answer to cater to. People do their best and they come up with a product that naturally not everyone will embrace. Tell me what product out there has 100% adoption/acceptance rates? There are two things that come up here: 1. This is a bitchfest about GNOME 3. Such bitchfests should be directed at GNOME and not at openSUSE. Launching tirades at openSUSE or openSUSE's GNOME Team does not solve anything at all. Even if they are to take it to heart, it doesn't mean that openSUSE is the one to make all the changes to GNOME 3. Go to GNOME's IRC channels or mailing lists and make your points there. 2. There are openSUSE users who are legitimately perplexed by some of the functionality in GNOME 3. As we're all supposed to be one big happy family, let's just take a moment to figure out the best ways to alleviate that. We want our users to stay here and we want them to be happy with what we provide them. Give them the resources, be friendly with them. Belittling a user who simply doesn't know all the functionalities you know doesn't make you a better person, nor does it achieve any meaningful purpose. Bryen M Yunashko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
1. This is hardly a relevant place for the discussion. 2. This was supposed to move to gnome-shell. 3. At 50 mails, nearly everything becomes spam. 4. I thought there was a "If you don't like it, change it yourself" rule on FOSS somewhere. 5. For some reason "I don't like project X whose product is included in oS, so all of you here is an idiot!" seems to be considered both reasonable and acceptable. But maybe it's just me. Yours sincerely. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 15:53, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
2. There are openSUSE users who are legitimately perplexed by some of the functionality in GNOME 3. As we're all supposed to be one big happy family, let's just take a moment to figure out the best ways to alleviate that. We want our users to stay here and we want them to be happy with what we provide them. Give them the resources, be friendly with them. Belittling a user who simply doesn't know all the functionalities you know doesn't make you a better person, nor does it achieve any meaningful purpose.
Thanks. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk70nBAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X+BACcDM1xRp02YAfrkdZwm+rHBXng axQAn1/mR6AlN2CzSKjgQx5OFijG82Ud =Vjmk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:44:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
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On 2011-12-23 02:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
I find it to be stable, friendly, and highly usable. I can focus on running the applications (which, let's face it, is why people use a computer - not because they can futz with the desktop).
I don't find it friendly. I have been with computers for at least 30 years, and I have seen a lot. I find that I have to learn again, and I don't find it intuitive. I do it simply because /they/ have choosen a new way for us, so I have to follow it or migrate. Thus I'll try to get used to G3, like it or not.
Well, like I said, it's a good thing there are options, then, isn't it?
I don't find that having to click on the top left, then another click to choose "applications" then to the top right to click on a category (on a touchpad, which means lifting my finger at least twice because once does not traverse the entire screen), and then reading a big list with small letters, left to right and top to bottom, to be ergonomic (and page-up/dn do not work).
I don't click, I use the so-called "Windows" key. Though more often I find myself using the dock extension and alt+f2 to launch programs than going to the activities screen.
And yes, I also focus on running apps, not on the desktop. Or I did.
I'm used to have a command line applet on which I type the name of the apps, or choose a previous entry. I can not add that applet, I don't know how to add applets to the panel.
I also like an applet with the hour and the temperature, of several cities. Now I can't.
I would like that, yes. But it's not a necessity for me to do my work. In fact, I find that without that, I spend less time wondering about stuff like that and tend to be more focused on what I'm actually working on. I'm more productive.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2).
In G3, workspaces are dynamic. Drag a window to an empty workspace, and a new one opens up. I *really* like that.
So no, I will not say to those that rant in public that they should not. Because it is pointless. Even if I agree with some of the points, and disagree on the tone.
I'm not telling people to not criticize things they don't like. But such criticism, if it's to be met with anything more than "Oh, 'x' doesn't like this. That's too bad." needs to be actually constructive criticism, or reported either as a bug or a feature request. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-23 19:44, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:44:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Well, like I said, it's a good thing there are options, then, isn't it?
It doesn't speak well of gnome if people that have been using it for a more than a decade have to migrate.
I don't find that having to click on the top left, then another click to choose "applications" then to the top right to click on a category (on a touchpad, which means lifting my finger at least twice because once does not traverse the entire screen), and then reading a big list with small letters, left to right and top to bottom, to be ergonomic (and page-up/dn do not work).
I don't click, I use the so-called "Windows" key. Though more often I find myself using the dock extension and alt+f2 to launch programs than going to the activities screen.
Some programs I don't know the calling name. And others I have to use long lines with options. Here (G2) I have an applet that shows a list of the previously used commands. That applet exists in fallbackmode in G3. Why not in full G3 mode? I don't understand why I can not add applets.
I also like an applet with the hour and the temperature, of several cities. Now I can't.
I would like that, yes. But it's not a necessity for me to do my work. In fact, I find that without that, I spend less time wondering about stuff like that and tend to be more focused on what I'm actually working on. I'm more productive.
But it is my choice to have those applets. It has been taken away! (the cities are those in which I have relatives or deep friends. I want to remember them) The main problem is that I am less productive because things I knew how to do for more than a decade, now I don't.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2).
In G3, workspaces are dynamic. Drag a window to an empty workspace, and a new one opens up. I *really* like that.
Yes, that's a good feature. But I can not order them in a matrix with rows and columns, as I do in G2.
So no, I will not say to those that rant in public that they should not. Because it is pointless. Even if I agree with some of the points, and disagree on the tone.
I'm not telling people to not criticize things they don't like. But such criticism, if it's to be met with anything more than "Oh, 'x' doesn't like this. That's too bad." needs to be actually constructive criticism, or reported either as a bug or a feature request.
But who defines what is constructive criticism? If when I start to talk I'm accused of being a troll? :-/ I have often, over the years, asked questions about how to do things in gnome, and more often than not, they go unanswered. Do we have to aggressively rant in the wrong list to get explanations on how to do things, to get the help I need? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk718DMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V6BACfchZXK/jsKbt9JQXbOuIAAe9o PBoAmwcMs5qmx1HavEhgUU7MFpCnNPgG =p949 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 24.12.2011 16:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Some programs I don't know the calling name. And others I have to use long lines with options. Here (G2) I have an applet that shows a list of the previously used commands. That applet exists in fallbackmode in G3. Why not in full G3 mode? I don't understand why I can not add applets.
It seems to not fit with the GNOME´s interface goals anymore. I´m not using GNOME 3 since I´m very happy with KDE 4, but what I´ve seen on Fedora 15 and openSUSE 11.4 and openSUSE 12.1 doesn´t look like a desktop but more like a workplace for mobile devices. Maybe that´s the way to go for GNOME, so applets become useless for them. Anyway, I´m not GNOME´s official spokesman nor an active member of the project so I only can speculate and give my very personal opinion.
I also like an applet with the hour and the temperature, of several cities. Now I can't.
I would like that, yes. But it's not a necessity for me to do my work. In fact, I find that without that, I spend less time wondering about stuff like that and tend to be more focused on what I'm actually working on. I'm more productive. But it is my choice to have those applets. It has been taken away!
Then you should use the fallback mode. I really hope the GNOME devs will keep it beyond GNOME 3.4
(the cities are those in which I have relatives or deep friends. I want to remember them)
The main problem is that I am less productive because things I knew how to do for more than a decade, now I don't.
That´s a common problem when a software (or just a tool) breaks with common paradigms. Either you (re-) learn it, or you run away. As far as I know, you can install the old GNOME 2 panel on a GNOME 3 machine too, but I´ve just read it on a forum, so I might mix up something here. A research via Google[1] should give you a more comprehensive answer. hope this helps, --kdl [1] or your desired search engine. -- kind regards, -o) German Wiki Team Kim Leyendecker /\\ Documentation& marketing www.opensuse.org _\_v leyendecker@opensuse.org ===================================================== my GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | IRC: k-d-l Twitter: kim_d_ley | Wiki-Username: openLHAG openSUSE - Linux for open minds - get it free today! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2011-12-24 at 16:30 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have often, over the years, asked questions about how to do things in gnome, and more often than not, they go unanswered. Do we have to aggressively rant in the wrong list to get explanations on how to do things, to get the help I need?
Point valid that this has been a problem over the years, although I must say when I visit the #opensuse-gnome freenode channel at a well-timed hour, I usually get fairly good replies back. The last few days alone have been extremely helpful (thank goodness, because it is the holiday season and I was worried no one would be around, hehe.) To be sure, there really isn't a plethora of GNOME users who can be on stand-by to answer general support questions in the openSUSE mediums. But I do wonder if that's really a bad thing. If we have a question/issue about the GNOME desktop, shouldn't we be going over to the GNOME Foundation's mediums? Except for very specific openSUSE-implementation aspects of GNOME, the general experience is the same across distros and you'd get a wider audience to hear/answer your questions. By the way, I wanted to go back to an earlier issue you mentioned. You stated that you didn't want to install extensions for GNOME unless they could be zyppered in. Turns out, many (but not all) of the extensions are in fact available via Zypper (as I found out last night) and in fact installing extensions even from the web browser is ridiculously simple. Just click on the "on/off" button in your browser next to the extension and it will automatically install for you. Couldn't be easier! (Thanks to Richard Brown for pointing this out.) And indeed there's an extension to give you notifications called EvilStatusIcon. I installed it but haven't configured it yet, but seems its popular out there to do exactly what you wanted. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2011-12-24 17:18, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:
On Sat, 2011-12-24 at 16:30 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have often, over the years, asked questions about how to do things in gnome, and more often than not, they go unanswered. Do we have to aggressively rant in the wrong list to get explanations on how to do things, to get the help I need?
Point valid that this has been a problem over the years, although I must say when I visit the #opensuse-gnome freenode channel at a well-timed hour, I usually get fairly good replies back. The last few days alone have been extremely helpful (thank goodness, because it is the holiday season and I was worried no one would be around, hehe.)
I've never used such a channel, do not even know how. I prefer email or nntp (the opensuse forums can be used via nntp), things that do not need an immediate response and work through time-zones.
To be sure, there really isn't a plethora of GNOME users who can be on stand-by to answer general support questions in the openSUSE mediums. But I do wonder if that's really a bad thing. If we have a question/issue about the GNOME desktop, shouldn't we be going over to the GNOME Foundation's mediums? Except for very specific openSUSE-implementation aspects of GNOME, the general experience is the same across distros and you'd get a wider audience to hear/answer your questions.
Perhaps.
By the way, I wanted to go back to an earlier issue you mentioned. You stated that you didn't want to install extensions for GNOME unless they could be zyppered in. Turns out, many (but not all) of the extensions are in fact available via Zypper (as I found out last night) and in fact installing extensions even from the web browser is ridiculously simple. Just click on the "on/off" button in your browser next to the extension and it will automatically install for you. Couldn't be easier! (Thanks to Richard Brown for pointing this out.)
I still do not know what an extension is... the help page does not say, or I did not find. And the link I saw listed extensions, but not what an extension is. Now I have time to search, but no internet. I don't know when this email will be sent. See? Not everybody has internet every-time-everywhere.
And indeed there's an extension to give you notifications called EvilStatusIcon. I installed it but haven't configured it yet, but seems its popular out there to do exactly what you wanted.
I'l have to look at it - after I figure what an extension is and how one uses them. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAk8BCKsACgkQja8UbcUWM1y67QD/QMu373hAj8R6/SVMQT5OMKD5 s0jSNyT+jsiw0y4YL7cA/1ft3ha4ZSQSYrmLm2gIDg92LSfZmEaiK2mY9JyEQnlB =+Zg5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 16:30:59 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Well, like I said, it's a good thing there are options, then, isn't it?
It doesn't speak well of gnome if people that have been using it for a more than a decade have to migrate.
Change is difficult. But things change. <shrug>
Some programs I don't know the calling name. And others I have to use long lines with options. Here (G2) I have an applet that shows a list of the previously used commands. That applet exists in fallbackmode in G3. Why not in full G3 mode? I don't understand why I can not add applets.
I'll admit that the command history is something I would like to see come back. Seems like a good feature request to make of the GNOME 3 team.
I have only two workspaces, and I have not seen yet how to add more (I work with 12 in this machine running G2).
In G3, workspaces are dynamic. Drag a window to an empty workspace, and a new one opens up. I *really* like that.
Yes, that's a good feature. But I can not order them in a matrix with rows and columns, as I do in G2.
For me, I don't need a matrix, but that's me.
But who defines what is constructive criticism? If when I start to talk I'm accused of being a troll? :-/
Did I accuse you of being a troll? No. You're discussing specifics. You didn't just say "GNOME 3 is stupid!" and walk away.
I have often, over the years, asked questions about how to do things in gnome, and more often than not, they go unanswered. Do we have to aggressively rant in the wrong list to get explanations on how to do things, to get the help I need?
No - it does in fact help to ask in the right place. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2011-12-24 17:56, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 16:30:59 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Well, like I said, it's a good thing there are options, then, isn't it?
It doesn't speak well of gnome if people that have been using it for a more than a decade have to migrate.
Change is difficult. But things change. <shrug>
Part of the success of gnome in the production scene is that it was predictable. Nobody likes having to retrain all the personnel in the company because the devs likes change.
Some programs I don't know the calling name. And others I have to use long lines with options. Here (G2) I have an applet that shows a list of the previously used commands. That applet exists in fallbackmode in G3. Why not in full G3 mode? I don't understand why I can not add applets.
I'll admit that the command history is something I would like to see come back. Seems like a good feature request to make of the GNOME 3 team.
Where is the feature request list?
Yes, that's a good feature. But I can not order them in a matrix with rows and columns, as I do in G2.
For me, I don't need a matrix, but that's me.
I need it, I use 12 workspaces, and I remember the row/column where each thing is.
But who defines what is constructive criticism? If when I start to talk I'm accused of being a troll? :-/
Did I accuse you of being a troll? No. You're discussing specifics. You didn't just say "GNOME 3 is stupid!" and walk away.
Not you, but somebody in this thread.
I have often, over the years, asked questions about how to do things in gnome, and more often than not, they go unanswered. Do we have to aggressively rant in the wrong list to get explanations on how to do things, to get the help I need?
No - it does in fact help to ask in the right place. :)
I asked in the right place. Last time I asked was in our forums, no reply. Previously (months) I asked in the opensuse-gnome mail list. This one caters to devs and ignores users questions, as far as I'm concerned at least. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAk8BCvMACgkQja8UbcUWM1xs5QEAj57UpbKAMzBOaO5HCMCIeZE2 PfheKLJIZhKZXHWVPbgBAITEJ0P3DyWLySJDPiDlkHenFBmSplmogCJvQ3reVe4u =qGz7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Albert -
Bryen M Yunashko -
Carlos E. R. -
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Jim Henderson -
Kim Leyendecker -
Koushik Kumar Nundy