Transparency and decision making in the openSUSE community
Dear community, DISCLAIMER - I am not on of the Mods on Reddit, just a community member. On 2023-07-06 13:01, Günter Dachs wrote:
Dear community,
I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well.
A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently.
I would vote to keep the flag forever. Actually we should put it everywhere. The question is - why not?
To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo.
Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason.
Upon asking one of the mods in private he told me I should generally message the mods and not make a post and that this particular person didn't remove it and I need to contact the mods in general.
I have to say that I actually wasn't aware that I can message all mods of a subreddit. And I agree that this would have been the proper way. The next time I will definitely do it. But I don't see this as a justification to remove my post.
I continued to message the mods in general and then a longer discussion with one of them started. Where they explained that the community had several posts that were about the pride flag in the past and that they just removed my post because of negative experiences with posts regarding the flag in the past. I don't think it's fair to remove posts from individuals just because another person did a post that touched the topic before but was using rules breaking content. I feel like openSUSE is a community and we should listen and respect each other. Not censor people quietly.
After several messages back and forth I was pointing out again that I just wanted to hilight that pride month is over and remind the mods to switch back, since they said that last time they forgot this for one year.. I was curious why they are not doing it now and I was told they don't tolerate the intolerante. In the whole situation nobody was intolerant :-) I have nothing against the usage of the pride flag during pride month!
In the whole conversation I felt like stuff is put into my mouth that I didn't say at all. Just because you had certain experiences with some people you don't need to judge who starts a certain topic by the same book.
I was pretty disappointed with the whole situation and it made me think: If they have so many people in the community who speak about the logo change. Why do they resist it in pretense of defending something/someone? Nobody is attacking LGBTIQ+ people.
Me and I are used a lot in this part of your mail. Maybe think about it.
OpenSUSE is a community distribution and it seems the community isn't heard? Their posts removed if they don't fit the opinion of some mods?
Shouldn't the mods follow concrete rules and guidelines and not act arbitrary?
Now, suddenly, after you had a personal problem - you are "the community" that "isn't heard"...
OpenSUSE is the makers distribution. I offered in the conversation several times to volunteer as a mod and change the logo myself. I got no response to that.
I would like to know who is deciding what the official community representation on reddit for our project should look like. In my opinion it should be the openSUSE community. I didn't find any poll, discussion or anything like that regarding using certain logos. But now I got the impression that several people asked for a logo change and were silenced.
Is the what you understand as open community work?
Yes. Including people of all colors is part of the community work.
I propose to create a poll on each social media platform and use on each platform the result of the poll. Or to ask the openSUSE contributors, members or general community of their opinion. I dislike that a handful of people make the decision and ignore, and even harrass other members.
The slogan is that openSUSE is the makers distribution. But it looks like that right you are not allowed to make a change that you would like to see.
I guess we still accept PullRequests and build.opensuse.org is up and running?
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism).
This is your personal definition of including everybody and being welcome. Where is a guideline that says we need to use neutral logos and artwork?
Mods need to be neutral and defend the code of conduct and rules of the specific social media platform. Not decide what they like and don't like and remove accordingly. Everything else is just pretense. Power in the hands of a view. Who don't want to listen and respect the opinion of others who have different ideas about the project.
The problem is, that you got a problem with a pride logo on a Reddit page. And this is where the problem starts. Work on the problem, don't work around the problem. Best regards, Thorsten
I would vote to keep the flag forever. Actually we should put it everywhere.
Great! I will open a poll later today on reddit so we can see what the consense in the community is and then we follow the decision. Is this fine with everyone?
On 2023-07-06 13:35, Günter Dachs wrote:
I would vote to keep the flag forever. Actually we should put it everywhere.
Great! I will open a poll later today on reddit so we can see what the consense in the community is and then we follow the decision. Is this fine with everyone?
No. Not fine. You should think about your request, the time you invested, take a deep breath, go out for a walk and reconsider your daily time spent on this topic. Best regards, Thorsten
I would vote to keep the flag forever. Actually we should put it everywhere.
Great! I will open a poll later today on reddit so we can see what the consense in the community is and then we follow the decision. Is this fine with everyone?
No. Not fine. You should think about your request, the time you invested, take a deep breath, go out for a walk and reconsider your daily time spent on this topic.
While I appreciate your suggestion how I should spend my time, I am quite able to make this decision by myself. Do you mind me asking why a vote is not fine for you? You expressed that you would vote, so I think it's the fairest solution for everybody. Then we have a fixed decision and everybody should follow it. You can find the poll here: https://www.reddit.com/r/openSUSE/comments/14s6od0/poll_usage_of_the_pride_f...
On 7/6/23 20:31, Günter Dachs wrote:
Dear community,
I would like to know who is deciding what the official community representation on reddit for our project should look like. In my opinion it should be the openSUSE community.
Just answering this part, from memory the people who created the subreddit started out as the mods and have then chosen to appoint further mods from the community as needed. All moderators within the openSUSE community are accountable to the openSUSE Board which is elected by its members. If anyone has a dispute with the way a certain moderator or moderators have acted they can lodge a complaint with the board. Who will the take appropriate action as needed. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Dear community,
I would like to know who is deciding what the official community representation on reddit for our project should look like. In my opinion it should be the openSUSE community.
Just answering this part, from memory the people who created the subreddit started out as the mods and have then chosen to appoint further mods from the community as needed.
All moderators within the openSUSE community are accountable to the openSUSE Board which is elected by its members. If anyone has a dispute with the way a certain moderator or moderators have acted they can lodge a complaint with the board. Who will the take appropriate action as needed.
Please consider this email as my notice to the board then. I would appreciate if the board could remind the mods that they should follow agreed upon rules and the code of conduct not make arbitrary decisions.
On 7/6/23 21:23, Günter Dachs wrote:
Dear community,
I would like to know who is deciding what the official community representation on reddit for our project should look like. In my opinion it should be the openSUSE community.
Just answering this part, from memory the people who created the subreddit started out as the mods and have then chosen to appoint further mods from the community as needed.
All moderators within the openSUSE community are accountable to the openSUSE Board which is elected by its members. If anyone has a dispute with the way a certain moderator or moderators have acted they can lodge a complaint with the board. Who will the take appropriate action as needed.
Please consider this email as my notice to the board then.
I would appreciate if the board could remind the mods that they should follow agreed upon rules and the code of conduct not make arbitrary decisions.
I am not on the board currently, they are probably reading this but if you'd like to contact them directly privately board _at_ opensuse _dot_ org should be the correct email address. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
At the moment, we don't have immediate plans to change the banner. The current banner has served as a way to foster a welcoming environment for the LGBTQ+ community and, as a side effect, to filter out individuals who do not align with our values of inclusivity as stated on coc.opensuse.org. I understand that the removal of your post without clear communication was a lapse on our part. Moving forward, it might be a good idea to work on improving our communication by utilizing Reddit's removal reasons to provide more transparent explanations. That's a topic to discuss internally on another day though. There are a couple of things I don't understand though: 1. Why are you so offended by a symbol that shows solidarity with the LGBTQ+ community? That does not seem to fit into a welcoming and open community like we are. 2. Why did you create a second account just to post the poll? I can't think of another reason to do so other than manipulating the result by voting with two accounts, which again makes me question your intentions.
Jens aka. Karatek composed on 2023-07-06 13:06 (UTC):
There are a couple of things I don't understand though: 1. Why are you so offended by a symbol that shows solidarity with the LGBTQ+ community? That does not seem to fit into a welcoming and open community like we are.
TT community hijacked the long existing symbolism of the rainbow: Smith’s Bible Dictionary says that rainbows in the Bible are: “the token of the covenant which God made with Noah when he came forth from the ark that the waters should no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. The right interpretation of (Genesis 9:13) seems to be that God took the rainbow, which had hitherto been but a beautiful object shining in the heavens when the sun’s rays fell on falling rain, and consecrated it as the sign of his love and the witness of his promise. Ecclesiastes. 43:11. The rainbow is a symbol of God’s faithfulness and mercy. The “rainbow around the throne” (Revelation 4:3 ) is seen as the symbol of hope and the bright emblem of mercy and love, all the more accurate as a symbol because it is reflected from the storm itself.” https://www.womanofnoblecharacter.com/rainbows-in-the-bible/ -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Felix Miata wrote:
Jens aka. Karatek composed on 2023-07-06 13:06 (UTC):
There are a couple of things I don't understand though:
Why are you so offended by a symbol that shows solidarity with the LGBTQ+
community? That does not seem to fit into a welcoming and open community like we are. TT community hijacked the long existing symbolism of the rainbow: Smith’s Bible Dictionary says that rainbows in the Bible are: “the token of the covenant which God made with Noah when he came forth from the ark that the waters should no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. The right interpretation of (Genesis 9:13) seems to be that God took the rainbow, which had hitherto been but a beautiful object shining in the heavens when the sun’s rays fell on falling rain, and consecrated it as the sign of his love and the witness of his promise. Ecclesiastes. 43:11. The rainbow is a symbol of God’s faithfulness and mercy. The “rainbow around the throne” (Revelation 4:3 ) is seen as the symbol of hope and the bright emblem of mercy and love, all the more accurate as a symbol because it is reflected from the storm itself.” https://www.womanofnoblecharacter.com/rainbows-in-the-bible/
There is no need to get religion involved and no need to do accusations of symbols being hijacked. This thread is about being inclusive and welcoming or not being so.
* Jens aka. Karatek <karatekhd@opensuse.org> [07-06-23 09:47]:
Felix Miata wrote:
Jens aka. Karatek composed on 2023-07-06 13:06 (UTC):
There are a couple of things I don't understand though:
Why are you so offended by a symbol that shows solidarity with the LGBTQ+
community? That does not seem to fit into a welcoming and open community like we are. TT community hijacked the long existing symbolism of the rainbow: Smith’s Bible Dictionary says that rainbows in the Bible are: “the token of the covenant which God made with Noah when he came forth from the ark that the waters should no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. The right interpretation of (Genesis 9:13) seems to be that God took the rainbow, which had hitherto been but a beautiful object shining in the heavens when the sun’s rays fell on falling rain, and consecrated it as the sign of his love and the witness of his promise. Ecclesiastes. 43:11. The rainbow is a symbol of God’s faithfulness and mercy. The “rainbow around the throne” (Revelation 4:3 ) is seen as the symbol of hope and the bright emblem of mercy and love, all the more accurate as a symbol because it is reflected from the storm itself.” https://www.womanofnoblecharacter.com/rainbows-in-the-bible/
There is no need to get religion involved and no need to do accusations of symbols being hijacked. This thread is about being inclusive and welcoming or not being so.
no, it was not. but you have diverted it from the OP's words. my understand: it was about censorship. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
There are a couple of things I don't understand though: 1. Why are you so offended by a symbol that shows solidarity with the LGBTQ+ community? That does not seem to fit into a welcoming and open community like we are.
I'm not offended by that symbol. While it is essential to promote inclusivity and support for marginalized communities, it is equally important to maintain neutrality and consider the global context of a neutral open source project. By adopting a balanced and inclusive approach, such as implementing a rotating flag system, open source projects can create an environment that fosters collaboration, respect, and understanding for all contributors and users. This ensures that everyone feels valued and represented, while upholding the principles of fairness, cultural sensitivity, and inclusivity for all marginalized communities. So if we want to be inclusive I propose a rotational system. As we can see companies change their logo during pride month to spread awareness. They don't change their logo permanently to include rainbow colors. I also believe that the effect will be that we just forget/ignore about the meaning if we see this whole year around. Same as with seasonal customs/dishes. We only have Christmas cookies during Christmas. And we are always happy when Christmas returns. Another reason is that I think openSUSE is just openSUSE. We don't need another symbol. The openSUSE symbol is enough. And if we are inclusive or not people will feel by our actions and how we treat them. Debian uses the Debian symbol. Gentoo the Gentoo symbol. Each distributions I checked do this. And yet all of them are inclusive and welcoming of all kinds of people.
2. Why did you create a second account just to post the poll? I can't think of another reason to do so other than manipulating the result by voting with two accounts, which again makes me question your intentions.
Because I use my clear name on this mailing list. And I don't want that random people know about my private reddit account. I care about my privacy. So I decided to create a new account specific for the poll and the discussion along with it. The moderator on reddit who I discussed the removal of my original post with didn't tell me his nickname as well by the way. I asked several times and they preferred not to answer. So I only saw that one moderator responds but couldn't place who it is. If they have the right to this privacy, why do you suspect that if I create an anonymous account for the poll that I must have malicious intentions? And that conversation was just between the maintainers of the openSUSE reddit an me via my private reddit account. While this conversation/poll is shared with the whole internet via this mailing list.
On 2023-07-06T15:50:06, Günter Dachs <gdachse@gmx.de> wrote:
While it is essential to promote inclusivity and support for marginalized communities, it is equally important to maintain neutrality and consider the global context of a neutral open source project.
The openSUSE Project is, however, not a neutral one. Please refer to the openSUSE values. You're right though, there's a bunch of pride flags to rotate through - https://www.volvogroup.com/en/news-and-media/news/2021/jun/lgbtq-pride-flags... Loving it. Great suggestion! Besides Pride Month in June, SUSE celebrates Proud Chameleon's Month in July. Happy to see openSUSE joining our corporate sponsor :-) Look, even today as Pride / Proud Chameleon's Month pictures of my friends and colleagues attending events are shared on social media, the social media team has to stay busy to delete the hate messages. Clearly, flying the colors is still necessary. If you feel this excludes anyone, rest assured it doesn't exclude anyone we'll miss. Regards, Lars (personal opinion) -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
If you feel this excludes anyone, rest assured it doesn't exclude anyone we'll miss.
I'm sorry Lars but you are not the community. You can only express your own opinion and should be aware that it might not reflect the opinion of the whole community. If you want to know the opinion of the community you might ask them. Like I tried with my reddit poll. So far the numbers speak for themselves. I hope that the openSUSE community can find it's way to a healthier discussion culture.
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses. Just because you dislike something doesn't make you right. Emily On Fri, Jul 7, 2023, 6:24 AM Günter Dachs <gdachse@gmx.de> wrote:
If you feel this excludes anyone, rest assured it doesn't exclude anyone we'll miss.
I'm sorry Lars but you are not the community. You can only express your own opinion and should be aware that it might not reflect the opinion of the whole community. If you want to know the opinion of the community you might ask them. Like I tried with my reddit poll. So far the numbers speak for themselves.
I hope that the openSUSE community can find it's way to a healthier discussion culture.
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses.
We are all aware of this. It has been repeatedly mentioned and acknowledged from my side. I repeatedly said I'm fine if someone comes up with an official and trustworthy way to ask the community. What I'm not fine with is ignoring the community in favour of the opinion of a few people.
Just because you dislike something doesn't make you right.
What exactly are you referring to?
Hi Günter, So basically you're forcing the board to put up a poll? By what right do you assert this authority? You're constantly talking about the community this and the community that. The problem is though you're entirely missing the point. The community is also there to protect the weak and excluded. The mere presence of a flag shouldn't be a problem as you're all for a good and strong community, right? Seeing your comments about the community I can only arrive at one conclusion. You're concerned for only a small part of the community and the rest is of no concern to you. A reddit poll is hardly a reflection of the community at large, and you sure know that. As for the 'neutrality' you crave, it does not exist. Neutrality is a way of allowing bullying to occur and say it's not your problem. Well, I have a problem with that, as you might have guessed. I urge you to do some soul searching to find out why you feel the need for all this theatrics. Regards, Natasha Op vr 7 jul 2023 om 15:12 schreef Günter Dachs <gdachse@gmx.de>:
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses.
We are all aware of this. It has been repeatedly mentioned and acknowledged from my side. I repeatedly said I'm fine if someone comes up with an official and trustworthy way to ask the community.
What I'm not fine with is ignoring the community in favour of the opinion of a few people.
Just because you dislike something doesn't make you right.
What exactly are you referring to?
Claim: the community acts on its own and is not representative Action: make a Reddit poll and say it’s representative I don’t even visit Reddit ten times per year I think… ________________________________ From: Natasha Ament <stacheldrahtje@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 7, 2023 9:48:28 PM To: Günter Dachs <gdachse@gmx.de> Cc: Emily Gonyer <emilyyrose@gmail.com>; project@lists.opensuse.org <project@lists.opensuse.org> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Transparency and decision making in the openSUSE community Hi Günter, So basically you're forcing the board to put up a poll? By what right do you assert this authority? You're constantly talking about the community this and the community that. The problem is though you're entirely missing the point. The community is also there to protect the weak and excluded. The mere presence of a flag shouldn't be a problem as you're all for a good and strong community, right? Seeing your comments about the community I can only arrive at one conclusion. You're concerned for only a small part of the community and the rest is of no concern to you. A reddit poll is hardly a reflection of the community at large, and you sure know that. As for the 'neutrality' you crave, it does not exist. Neutrality is a way of allowing bullying to occur and say it's not your problem. Well, I have a problem with that, as you might have guessed. I urge you to do some soul searching to find out why you feel the need for all this theatrics. Regards, Natasha Op vr 7 jul 2023 om 15:12 schreef Günter Dachs <gdachse@gmx.de>:
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses.
We are all aware of this. It has been repeatedly mentioned and acknowledged from my side. I repeatedly said I'm fine if someone comes up with an official and trustworthy way to ask the community.
What I'm not fine with is ignoring the community in favour of the opinion of a few people.
Just because you dislike something doesn't make you right.
What exactly are you referring to?
On 7/7/23 15:12, Günter Dachs wrote:
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses.
We are all aware of this. It has been repeatedly mentioned and acknowledged from my side. I repeatedly said I'm fine if someone comes up with an official and trustworthy way to ask the community.
Personally I don't think such an official query is needed, based on the proportion of positions in the TOO MANY threads on that topic that keeps popping up. To me it's clear that for every participant stating we should remove the rainbow there are like 10 participants showing their support for the current status. Don't you see the same? I guess you can see that running an official query for that topic may set a dangerous precedent. If we need an official query for something as harmless as displaying a rainbow on hover of the Reddit logo... what else should be subject to a community-wide voting? Should we require an official query for every possible usage of the logo and for every text we publish in an official openSUSE page? Cheers. -- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Software Solutions
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses.
We are all aware of this. It has been repeatedly mentioned and acknowledged from my side. I repeatedly said I'm fine if someone comes up with an official and trustworthy way to ask the community.
Personally I don't think such an official query is needed, based on the proportion of positions in the TOO MANY threads on that topic that keeps popping up. To me it's clear that for every participant stating we should remove the rainbow there are like 10 participants showing their support for the current status. Don't you see the same?
Before my reminder post I was not paying attention whether people were talking about the pride flag before I did. So it is hard for me to answer this question. As mentioned earlier, my initial intention was to just remind that pride month is over and we should update the artwork. Only when my post got removed, and I started to get attacked, I started to get suspicious. One of the mods told me that they get "such requests" quite frequently recently and that it creates "unrest in the community" so they just remove everything related. This sounds like living in Russia or China to me. Where discussions about certain topics are just not allowed. It also hints that there are more people out there who would like to discuss it but are silenced. And when I look at the numbers of my poll before it's deletion it also hints that a big part of the community would prefer not to use those colors permanently. As mentioned I didn't pay attention to the topic earlier. But in this short time I certainly get the impression that there quite likely is a big part of the community who would like to discuss the topic but probably are afraid of the consequences or are just silenced. Believe me it is not fun to discuss this topic here when faced with the hostility I experienced the last days. And I certainly understand why many people just don't want to go into that trouble.
I guess you can see that running an official query for that topic may set a dangerous precedent.
And yet it might be the only way to find out whether your assumption is true.
Op zaterdag 8 juli 2023 13:34:16 CEST schreef Günter Dachs:
Believe me it is not fun to discuss this topic
Then it's pretty masochistic to repeat yourself over and over again in various places on reddit, and on our project@ ML.
here when faced with the hostility I experienced the last days.
Hostility towards you? Not even close to the hostility people meet, every day, every week, every month. Not for what they say, but for who they are. Repeat: *for who they are*. People f.e. from the "rainbow" community. From f.e. people like you. I've seen this trick before: make a fuzz, then declare yourself the victim and ask for pity. Well, let me tell you: You are not a victim. You're disappointed that you did not get what you wanted. And even more that you will not get it. *WARNING*: I also request you to refrain from sending me private emails. I've seen that trick as well, and too often. Given your attitude your private emails to me from now on will be filtered to /dev/null anyway. My advice (one and only) : Step away and leave us alone. We will not bow for your demands. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team
* Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> [07-08-23 10:21]:
Op zaterdag 8 juli 2023 13:34:16 CEST schreef Günter Dachs:
Believe me it is not fun to discuss this topic
Then it's pretty masochistic to repeat yourself over and over again in various places on reddit, and on our project@ ML.
here when faced with the hostility I experienced the last days.
Hostility towards you? Not even close to the hostility people meet, every day, every week, every month. Not for what they say, but for who they are. Repeat: *for who they are*. People f.e. from the "rainbow" community. From f.e. people like you.
I've seen this trick before: make a fuzz, then declare yourself the victim and ask for pity. Well, let me tell you: You are not a victim. You're disappointed that you did not get what you wanted. And even more that you will not get it.
*WARNING*: I also request you to refrain from sending me private emails. I've seen that trick as well, and too often. Given your attitude your private emails to me from now on will be filtered to /dev/null anyway.
My advice (one and only) : Step away and leave us alone. We will not bow for your demands.
was not aware that support of the "rainbow community" was our project's aim, even remotely so. but from appearances, it is so of our "board". my advice: remove support for anything beyond the technology aim of our community project, openSUSE Linux. and masochistic endeavours will disappear. and I am quite aware of your appreciation of my existance. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Hostility towards you? Not even close to the hostility people meet, every day, every week, every month. Not for what they say, but for who they are. Repeat: *for who they are*. People f.e. from the "rainbow" community. From f.e. people like you.
I don't attack anybody for who they are. And I'm not sure why you have this opinion. Nor why you claim this but probably couldn't point to one line that I wrote which could back up your claim. I would appreciate if you could stop putting a label on me.
*WARNING*: I also request you to refrain from sending me private emails. I've seen that trick as well, and too often. Given your attitude your private emails to me from now on will be filtered to /dev/null anyway.
I didn't send you any private emails. All the emails I'm sending about this discussion where public. But my mail client adds the senders address to the 'to:' field. So it might be that you get emails twice: one to your private email and one time via the list. To frame this as if I would send you private emails is quite odd.
On 2023-07-08 17:35, Günter Dachs wrote:
I didn't send you any private emails. All the emails I'm sending about this discussion where public. But my mail client adds the senders address to the 'to:' field.
So it might be that you get emails twice: one to your private email and one time via the list. To frame this as if I would send you private emails is quite odd.
And if you did as you suggest, then you failed to follow proper protocol for this list https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l... Gertjan apparently didn’t mail you directly but you replied to him as such This would be considered rude as per our above documentation Please try and do a better job of conforming to our community standards. You’re clearly new here and so far have demonstrated a significant lack of understanding of what we do here, how we do it, and what we stand for.
On 2023-07-08 18:06, Richard Brown wrote:
On 2023-07-08 17:35, Günter Dachs wrote:
I didn't send you any private emails. All the emails I'm sending about this discussion where public. But my mail client adds the senders address to the 'to:' field.
So it might be that you get emails twice: one to your private email and one time via the list. To frame this as if I would send you private emails is quite odd.
And if you did as you suggest, then you failed to follow proper protocol for this list
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l...
Gertjan apparently didn’t mail you directly but you replied to him as such
This would be considered rude as per our above documentation
This is true, but unfortunately many mail clients do not have a [Reply (to) list] button, thus many people have to use the [Reply to All] button instead. We do not usually call them rude to all of them, specially if they are newcommers - we start by instructing them ;-)
Please try and do a better job of conforming to our community standards. You’re clearly new here and so far have demonstrated a significant lack of understanding of what we do here, how we do it, and what we stand for.
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
I didn't send you any private emails. All the emails I'm sending about this discussion where public. But my mail client adds the senders address to the 'to:' field.
So it might be that you get emails twice: one to your private email and one time via the list. To frame this as if I would send you private emails is quite odd.
And if you did as you suggest, then you failed to follow proper protocol for this list
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l...
Thank you for the information.
Gertjan apparently didn’t mail you directly but you replied to him as such
This would be considered rude as per our above documentation
Please try and do a better job of conforming to our community standards. You’re clearly new here and so far have demonstrated a significant lack of understanding of what we do here, how we do it, and what we stand for.
While I appreciate the information about how to use the mailing list correctly I find it weird that not knowing about this norm is considered "rude". It feels like you are just claiming this because you don't like the topic that I'm trying to talk about. As a matter of fact I have received several emails on this list twice myself. Because other users used the "reply to all" as well and thus messaged me directly. I made no fuzz about it. So I would appreciate if we could return to the topic at hand: Who is deciding which banner to use? If anybody can contribute why is my contribution of just setting the default/white banner not accepted? How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system?
On 7/10/23 17:18, Günter Dachs wrote:
I didn't send you any private emails. All the emails I'm sending about this discussion where public. But my mail client adds the senders address to the 'to:' field.
So it might be that you get emails twice: one to your private email and one time via the list. To frame this as if I would send you private emails is quite odd.
And if you did as you suggest, then you failed to follow proper protocol for this list
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l...
Thank you for the information.
Gertjan apparently didn’t mail you directly but you replied to him as such
This would be considered rude as per our above documentation
Please try and do a better job of conforming to our community standards. You’re clearly new here and so far have demonstrated a significant lack of understanding of what we do here, how we do it, and what we stand for.
While I appreciate the information about how to use the mailing list correctly I find it weird that not knowing about this norm is considered "rude". It feels like you are just claiming this because you don't like the topic that I'm trying to talk about.
As a matter of fact I have received several emails on this list twice myself. Because other users used the "reply to all" as well and thus messaged me directly.
I made no fuzz about it.
So I would appreciate if we could return to the topic at hand:
Who is deciding which banner to use? If anybody can contribute why is my contribution of just setting the default/white banner not accepted?
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system?
As a project we have a voting system that can be used to anonymously ask all members their opinion on a topic, but in the past we have tended to only do so if there is a demand for such from a large group of people and likely the conflict has already been elevated to the board and the board decides they would rather seek community consultation rather then making a decision themselves. At the end of the day if enough people disagree with how the board handles a decision they can choose to become members and run at the next board election (usually in December). Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Hello Günter, Günter Dachs wrote:
Who is deciding which banner to use? If we are still talking about the openSUSE Subreddit page, then the admins of the page decide what artwork to put up and not put up. As long as it's in compliance with the CoC and Reddit's Content Policy they have liberty to do as they see fit.
If anybody can contribute why is my contribution of just setting the default/white banner not accepted? A contribution would have been for example submitting alternative artwork, or motivating the community to do an artwork contest with designs to put in the banner. Instead you chose a "reminder" to change the banner and then an unofficial poll, both very polarizing approaches. Unfortunately neither of your actions were contributions, they were demands that turned into badgering and you shouldn't be surprised that they are not met by the admins with open arms.
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system?
As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit). Best, Maurizio Galli
On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote:
Hello Günter,
Günter Dachs wrote:
Who is deciding which banner to use? If we are still talking about the openSUSE Subreddit page, then the admins of the page decide what artwork to put up and not put up. As long as it's in compliance with the CoC and Reddit's Content Policy they have liberty to do as they see fit.
If anybody can contribute why is my contribution of just setting the default/white banner not accepted? A contribution would have been for example submitting alternative artwork, or motivating the community to do an artwork contest with designs to put in the banner. Instead you chose a "reminder" to change the banner and then an unofficial poll, both very polarizing approaches. Unfortunately neither of your actions were contributions, they were demands that turned into badgering and you shouldn't be surprised that they are not met by the admins with open arms.
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system?
As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit).
From a moderation perspective on this list, I almost wouldn't mind a poll on a more general but related question. Because then I could just close these topics with we had a poll of members and 9X% said this. Of course such a poll would have to be very carefully worded and I'm certainly not suggesting it should water down the CoC but it is clear there is parts of the community feel that having Flags etc all year is welcoming and fine while some others from different backgrounds feel that doing so all year may alienate contributors from some other backgrounds, many corporations also take this view as it is a very delicate area and so personally I don't think there is any issue with that view. As opposed to the view of we should never use such flags and those people aren't welcome here. I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss. Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll. Because it is a sensitive subject and its probably ok if people feel we are going a little too far in one direction or not far enough in the other. But for now I can be happy that i'm not on the board and that as we in Australia would say I can handball the topic off to those of you who are to decide how to proceed. From a moderation perspective here i'd like to thank you all for staying civil on the list but I am leaning toward the fact that everything that needs to be said on this topic has probably been said so unless people have new thoughts and ideas it might be time to wind the discussion up, if it starts just going round in circles i'll probably be slightly more forceful about doing such. Thanks -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 2023-07-10 11:31, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote:
Hello Günter,
Günter Dachs wrote:
Who is deciding which banner to use? If we are still talking about the openSUSE Subreddit page, then the admins of the page decide what artwork to put up and not put up. As long as it's in compliance with the CoC and Reddit's Content Policy they have liberty to do as they see fit.
If anybody can contribute why is my contribution of just setting the default/white banner not accepted? A contribution would have been for example submitting alternative artwork, or motivating the community to do an artwork contest with designs to put in the banner. Instead you chose a "reminder" to change the banner and then an unofficial poll, both very polarizing approaches. Unfortunately neither of your actions were contributions, they were demands that turned into badgering and you shouldn't be surprised that they are not met by the admins with open arms.
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system?
As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit).
From a moderation perspective on this list, I almost wouldn't mind a poll on a more general but related question. Because then I could just close these topics with we had a poll of members and 9X% said this.
Of course such a poll would have to be very carefully worded and I'm certainly not suggesting it should water down the CoC but it is clear there is parts of the community feel that having Flags etc all year is welcoming and fine while some others from different backgrounds feel that doing so all year may alienate contributors from some other backgrounds, many corporations also take this view as it is a very delicate area and so personally I don't think there is any issue with that view. As opposed to the view of we should never use such flags and those people aren't welcome here.
Wait, "don't use such flags" is not necessarily tied to "those people aren't welcomed here. Just a point on forms, not that I think we should not use such flags ;-) There are other possibilities: have more flags. Have a flag calendar. Things can be even more complicated :-p
I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss.
Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll. Because it is a sensitive subject and its probably ok if people feel we are going a little too far in one direction or not far enough in the other.
But for now I can be happy that i'm not on the board and that as we in Australia would say I can handball the topic off to those of you who are to decide how to proceed.
From a moderation perspective here i'd like to thank you all for staying civil on the list but I am leaning toward the fact that everything that needs to be said on this topic has probably been said so unless people have new thoughts and ideas it might be time to wind the discussion up, if it starts just going round in circles i'll probably be slightly more forceful about doing such.
Thanks
Thank you :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
From a moderation perspective on this list, I almost wouldn't mind a poll on a more general but related question. Because then I could just close these topics with we had a poll of members and 9X% said this.
Of course such a poll would have to be very carefully worded and I'm certainly not suggesting it should water down the CoC but it is clear there is parts of the community feel that having Flags etc all year is welcoming and fine while some others from different backgrounds feel that doing so all year may alienate contributors from some other backgrounds, many corporations also take this view as it is a very delicate area and so personally I don't think there is any issue with that view. As opposed to the view of we should never use such flags and those people aren't welcome here.
I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss.
Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll. Because it is a sensitive subject and its probably ok if people feel we are going a little too far in one direction or not far enough in the other.
Thank your for this email Simon. I appreciate how calm and balanced it is and how it takes various views into consideration. This is what respectful discussions should look like.
Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote:
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system? As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit).
I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss.
Speaking of balance, please, let's remember every time this started it's because we have a banner on Reddit (I know shocking), with a subtle artwork with little color supporting a minority group and someone wanted it taken down, multiple times now. Many of our developers and contributors are LGTBQ+ and if you asked me the current path is the correct one. Taking down the rainbow symbol actually means more to those represented by it than those who insist on taking it down. This is not being militant nor activism, it's showing solidarity. Stopping this would send a far worse message to those who feel welcome because of it than it would to those who feel bothered or offended by it.
Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll.
I think it's clear by now the admins on Reddit and other communication platforms want to continue show solidarity for now and have no intention to comply with the demands. Having a poll is not going to change their determination as we have already seen.
From a moderation perspective here i'd like to thank you all for staying civil on the list but I am leaning toward the fact that everything that needs to be said on this topic has probably been said so unless people have new thoughts and ideas it might be time to wind the discussion up, if it starts just going round in circles i'll probably be slightly more forceful about doing such. Thanks
Thank you Simon and I agree that considering this topic is not new, it's like beating a dead horse now. Best, Maurizio
On 7/11/23 14:08, Maurizio Galli wrote:
Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote:
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system? As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit).
I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss.
Speaking of balance, please, let's remember every time this started it's because we have a banner on Reddit (I know shocking), with a subtle artwork with little color supporting a minority group and someone wanted it taken down, multiple times now. Many of our developers and contributors are LGTBQ+ and if you asked me the current path is the correct one. Taking down the rainbow symbol actually means more to those represented by it than those who insist on taking it down. This is not being militant nor activism, it's showing solidarity. Stopping this would send a far worse message to those who feel welcome because of it than it would to those who feel bothered or offended by it.
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?" If we have a good understanding of this then all these questions can just go away. For example on this list there seems to be a conciseness that having Pride Flags for Pride month while obviously being a statement (why would we do it otherwise), is a statement that's acceptable to the broader community. On the other hand people have expressed that they are less comfortable with a statement year round as they believe it may alienate others which is a fair position to have as has been pointed out many organisations share this opinion. While we know that atleast several people share this opinion we currently have no idea how many do. Maybe having more concrete data on this would allow us to put together a clear statement and then we wouldn't have to have the question come up every few months etc.
Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll.
I think it's clear by now the admins on Reddit and other communication platforms want to continue show solidarity for now and have no intention to comply with the demands. Having a poll is not going to change their determination as we have already seen.
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that. I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run for the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other and there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly. Cheers. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 2023-07-11 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that.
I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run for the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other and there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly.
Sure, but, the Board are accountable for their actions also. We already have “soft-forks” like Project Greybeard because my decreasing trust in the Board to do the right thing makes me uncomfortable starting any new personal projects under the openSUSE umbrella. I think the Board would have to be aware that forcing something like you propose on the Reddit admins would likely lead to other more established parts of the Project finding a more appropriate governance model. Not to forget that our main sponsor also has clear standards on diversity and inclusion and I think if openSUSE is seen to work against that it could put that relationship at risk. This is an area the board has to tread VERY carefully over and I expect them to favour the wishes of contributors like our Reddit admins and myself over random newcomers who’s only contribution to date has to be disruptive.
Le 11/07/2023 à 08:57, Richard Brown a écrit :
We already have “soft-forks” like Project Greybeard because my decreasing trust in the Board to do the right thing makes me uncomfortable starting any new personal projects under the openSUSE umbrella.
oh... this make me uncomfortable :-) As for the flag, the problem I see is not we should be less inclusive, but we may be should be more... but it become soon difficult (for a flag) Here, in France, we are regularly asked to wear some sort of flag to be active against cancer, poverty in the world, women egality, not to forget many orphans diseases, LGBT... and so on. Finally I wear none and give some money where I see fit. A changing flag may (?) solve part of the problem, like the Goggle logo changes sometime. But I have no real idea of how we can achieve this but to say we don't only accept but want anybody to share with us, whatever color, gender, political opinion, way of live... I dunno if its was an international advertisement, but here a well known fast food make said "come as you are, welcome!" jdd -- c'est quoi, usenet? http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Usenet.Usenet
On 7/11/23 16:27, Richard Brown wrote:
On 2023-07-11 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that.
I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run for the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other and there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly.
Sure, but, the Board are accountable for their actions also.
We already have “soft-forks” like Project Greybeard because my decreasing trust in the Board to do the right thing makes me uncomfortable starting any new personal projects under the openSUSE umbrella.
I think the Board would have to be aware that forcing something like you propose on the Reddit admins would likely lead to other more established parts of the Project finding a more appropriate governance model.
Yes, i'm just pointing out the current governance model and how it works, so that the people who would like to see some form of change know how it works rather then just posting to this list every few months. In an ideal world we'd get a strong representative community consensus so whenever it comes up again we can just point to that. But in the world we live in unfortunatly collecting such data may cause more harm then good so i'd understand the board not wanting to.
Not to forget that our main sponsor also has clear standards on diversity and inclusion and I think if openSUSE is seen to work against that it could put that relationship at risk.
Atleast in the thread this time around I don't think anyone has suggested anything that "actively works against that" all that has been suggested is minor changes that align with the approach that many other projects/companies take. But i'm happy to agree to disagree on this point.
This is an area the board has to tread VERY carefully over and I expect them to favour the wishes of contributors like our Reddit admins and myself over random newcomers who’s only contribution to date has to be disruptive.
I likely expect that they would as well, having said that i've seen voices in this thread that I probably wouldn't classify as "Random Newcomers", if it was just "random newcomers" then I probably wouldn't have bothered with the effort i've put into these posts. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Hi Simon, I think there is a misconception about the rainbow flag. The rainbow flag is all about inclusivity is apolitical. However the people who don't like diversity try to politicize it. Common decency and being able to be who you are without bias, harassment and bullying is not so much political but something every human being may expect. From my personal experience as being transgendered has been an experience I don't want anyone to endure. Suffice to say bullying has followed my entire life and sometimes still raises it's ugly head. However over time I've grown stronger and defiant out of necessity. The mere fact of labeling the flag as something political is the same as trying to be 'neutral'. It basically offers those who want to bully a carte blanche. What's next? The pronouns a person 'chose' are political and I choose to ignore them? So the flag raises awareness, nothing more nothing less. It shows to future contributors like myself (just starting) that openSUSE is place that welcomes you as you are. The flag is very much appropriate to achieve this. I'm not singling you out. My ramblings address the people who don't see a problem with abolishing the flag. Kind regards, Natasha On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 08:31 Simon Lees, <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
On 7/11/23 14:08, Maurizio Galli wrote:
Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote:
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system? As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit).
I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss.
Speaking of balance, please, let's remember every time this started it's because we have a banner on Reddit (I know shocking), with a subtle artwork with little color supporting a minority group and someone wanted it taken down, multiple times now. Many of our developers and contributors are LGTBQ+ and if you asked me the current path is the correct one. Taking down the rainbow symbol actually means more to those represented by it than those who insist on taking it down. This is not being militant nor activism, it's showing solidarity. Stopping this would send a far worse message to those who feel welcome because of it than it would to those who feel bothered or offended by it.
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?" If we have a good understanding of this then all these questions can just go away. For example on this list there seems to be a conciseness that having Pride Flags for Pride month while obviously being a statement (why would we do it otherwise), is a statement that's acceptable to the broader community.
On the other hand people have expressed that they are less comfortable with a statement year round as they believe it may alienate others which is a fair position to have as has been pointed out many organisations share this opinion. While we know that atleast several people share this opinion we currently have no idea how many do. Maybe having more concrete data on this would allow us to put together a clear statement and then we wouldn't have to have the question come up every few months etc.
Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll.
I think it's clear by now the admins on Reddit and other communication platforms want to continue show solidarity for now and have no intention to comply with the demands. Having a poll is not going to change their determination as we have already seen.
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that.
I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run for the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other and there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly.
Cheers.
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 7/11/23 18:28, Natasha Ament wrote:
Hi Simon,
I think there is a misconception about the rainbow flag.
The rainbow flag is all about inclusivity is apolitical.
However the people who don't like diversity try to politicize it. Common decency and being able to be who you are without bias, harassment and bullying is not so much political but something every human being may expect.
From my personal experience as being transgendered has been an experience I don't want anyone to endure.
Suffice to say bullying has followed my entire life and sometimes still raises it's ugly head. However over time I've grown stronger and defiant out of necessity.
The mere fact of labeling the flag as something political is the same as trying to be 'neutral'. It basically offers those who want to bully a carte blanche. What's next? The pronouns a person 'chose' are political and I choose to ignore them?
So the flag raises awareness, nothing more nothing less. It shows to future contributors like myself (just starting) that openSUSE is place that welcomes you as you are. The flag is very much appropriate to achieve this. I'm not singling you out. My ramblings address the people who don't see a problem with abolishing the flag.
To be clear I agree with you, although some do see it as a "political" symbol. I was mostly using that wording in lieu of not being able to think of any better wording, if you could recommend some that would make my life easier. Also as I see it the discussion this time unlike last time is not around whether we get rid of the use of the flag / artwork entirely but about whether we use it all year round or use our regular branding outside Pride Month. Cheers Simon
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 08:31 Simon Lees, <sflees@suse.de <mailto:sflees@suse.de>> wrote:
On 7/11/23 14:08, Maurizio Galli wrote: > Simon Lees wrote: >> On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote: >>> How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system? >>> As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit). > >> I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in >> private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because >> they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance >> completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss. > > Speaking of balance, please, let's remember every time this started it's because we have a banner on Reddit (I know shocking), with a subtle artwork with little color supporting a minority group and someone wanted it taken down, multiple times now. Many of our developers and contributors are LGTBQ+ and if you asked me the current path is the correct one. Taking down the rainbow symbol actually means more to those represented by it than those who insist on taking it down. This is not being militant nor activism, it's showing solidarity. Stopping this would send a far worse message to those who feel welcome because of it than it would to those who feel bothered or offended by it.
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?" If we have a good understanding of this then all these questions can just go away. For example on this list there seems to be a conciseness that having Pride Flags for Pride month while obviously being a statement (why would we do it otherwise), is a statement that's acceptable to the broader community.
On the other hand people have expressed that they are less comfortable with a statement year round as they believe it may alienate others which is a fair position to have as has been pointed out many organisations share this opinion. While we know that atleast several people share this opinion we currently have no idea how many do. Maybe having more concrete data on this would allow us to put together a clear statement and then we wouldn't have to have the question come up every few months etc.
>> Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some >> people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a >> project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll. > > I think it's clear by now the admins on Reddit and other communication platforms want to continue show solidarity for now and have no intention to comply with the demands. Having a poll is not going to change their determination as we have already seen.
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that.
I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run for the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other and there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly.
Cheers.
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net <http://simotek.net>
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek <http://keybase.io/simotek> SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Tue, Jul 11, 2023, 5:08 AM Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
On 7/11/23 18:28, Natasha Ament wrote:
Hi Simon,
I think there is a misconception about the rainbow flag.
The rainbow flag is all about inclusivity is apolitical.
However the people who don't like diversity try to politicize it. Common decency and being able to be who you are without bias, harassment and bullying is not so much political but something every human being may expect.
From my personal experience as being transgendered has been an experience I don't want anyone to endure.
Suffice to say bullying has followed my entire life and sometimes still raises it's ugly head. However over time I've grown stronger and defiant out of necessity.
The mere fact of labeling the flag as something political is the same as trying to be 'neutral'. It basically offers those who want to bully a carte blanche. What's next? The pronouns a person 'chose' are political and I choose to ignore them?
So the flag raises awareness, nothing more nothing less. It shows to future contributors like myself (just starting) that openSUSE is place that welcomes you as you are. The flag is very much appropriate to achieve this. I'm not singling you out. My ramblings address the people who don't see a problem with abolishing the flag.
To be clear I agree with you, although some do see it as a "political" symbol. I was mostly using that wording in lieu of not being able to think of any better wording, if you could recommend some that would make my life easier.
Also as I see it the discussion this time unlike last time is not around whether we get rid of the use of the flag / artwork entirely but about whether we use it all year round or use our regular branding outside Pride Month.
Cheers
Simon
And, that's just it. What's up on reddit now, and for a long time, has not been 'regular branding' to begin with. But, nobody has a problem with that. No. Only the colors chosen. It's absurd. It's not even a proper flag on reddit. Only colors. Rainbows only symbolize inclusion. If someone has a problem with them, then they have a problem with inclusion and that's on them. Emily
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 08:31 Simon Lees, <sflees@suse.de <mailto:sflees@suse.de>> wrote:
On 7/11/23 14:08, Maurizio Galli wrote: > Simon Lees wrote: >> On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote: >>> How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system? >>> As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit). > >> I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in >> private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because >> they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance >> completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss. > > Speaking of balance, please, let's remember every time this started it's because we have a banner on Reddit (I know shocking), with a subtle artwork with little color supporting a minority group and someone wanted it taken down, multiple times now. Many of our developers and contributors are LGTBQ+ and if you asked me the current path is the correct one. Taking down the rainbow symbol actually means more to those represented by it than those who insist on taking it down. This is not being militant nor activism, it's showing solidarity. Stopping this would send a far worse message to those who feel welcome because of it than it would to those who feel bothered or offended by it.
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?" If we have a good understanding of this then all these questions can just go away. For example on this list there seems to be a conciseness that having
Pride
Flags for Pride month while obviously being a statement (why would we do it otherwise), is a statement that's acceptable to the broader community.
On the other hand people have expressed that they are less
comfortable
with a statement year round as they believe it may alienate others which is a fair position to have as has been pointed out many organisations share this opinion. While we know that atleast several people share this opinion we currently have no idea how many do. Maybe having more concrete data on this would allow us to put together a clear
statement
and then we wouldn't have to have the question come up every few months etc.
>> Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some >> people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a >> project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll. > > I think it's clear by now the admins on Reddit and other communication platforms want to continue show solidarity for now and have no intention to comply with the demands. Having a poll is not going to change their determination as we have already seen.
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that.
I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run
for
the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other
and
there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly.
Cheers.
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net <http://simotek.net>
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek <http://keybase.io/simotek> SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 2023-07-11 11:07, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 18:28, Natasha Ament wrote:
Hi Simon,
I think there is a misconception about the rainbow flag.
The rainbow flag is all about inclusivity is apolitical.
However the people who don't like diversity try to politicize it. Common decency and being able to be who you are without bias, harassment and bullying is not so much political but something every human being may expect.
From my personal experience as being transgendered has been an experience I don't want anyone to endure.
Suffice to say bullying has followed my entire life and sometimes still raises it's ugly head. However over time I've grown stronger and defiant out of necessity.
The mere fact of labeling the flag as something political is the same as trying to be 'neutral'. It basically offers those who want to bully a carte blanche. What's next? The pronouns a person 'chose' are political and I choose to ignore them?
So the flag raises awareness, nothing more nothing less. It shows to future contributors like myself (just starting) that openSUSE is place that welcomes you as you are. The flag is very much appropriate to achieve this. I'm not singling you out. My ramblings address the people who don't see a problem with abolishing the flag.
To be clear I agree with you, although some do see it as a "political" symbol. I was mostly using that wording in lieu of not being able to think of any better wording, if you could recommend some that would make my life easier.
Everything is political :-) A discussion about doing this or that is political. I'm sure there are politologists (political scientist) somewhere discussing about the metadiscussion of whether something is political or not and what it entails :-p
Also as I see it the discussion this time unlike last time is not around whether we get rid of the use of the flag / artwork entirely but about whether we use it all year round or use our regular branding outside Pride Month.
Yes. Maurizio Galli said "and someone wanted it taken down", which is not entirely correct. As I understand it, the proposal is having it only during the pride month. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
* Natasha Ament <stacheldrahtje@gmail.com> [07-11-23 05:00]:
Hi Simon,
I think there is a misconception about the rainbow flag.
The rainbow flag is all about inclusivity is apolitical.
However the people who don't like diversity try to politicize it. Common decency and being able to be who you are without bias, harassment and bullying is not so much political but something every human being may expect.
From my personal experience as being transgendered has been an experience I don't want anyone to endure.
Suffice to say bullying has followed my entire life and sometimes still raises it's ugly head. However over time I've grown stronger and defiant out of necessity.
The mere fact of labeling the flag as something political is the same as trying to be 'neutral'. It basically offers those who want to bully a carte blanche. What's next? The pronouns a person 'chose' are political and I choose to ignore them?
So the flag raises awareness, nothing more nothing less. It shows to future contributors like myself (just starting) that openSUSE is place that welcomes you as you are. The flag is very much appropriate to achieve this. I'm not singling you out. My ramblings address the people who don't see a problem with abolishing the flag.
Kind regards,
Natasha
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 08:31 Simon Lees, <sflees@suse.de> wrote:
On 7/11/23 14:08, Maurizio Galli wrote:
Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/10/23 18:25, Maurizio Galli wrote:
How can we improve our community by listening to what the community actually wants? Can we create a voting system? As Simon already pointed out we have one but it's usually for things that would affect the whole project, not for grievances that are only specific to a communication platforms not everyone uses (in this case Reddit).
I have also had people from different diverse backgrounds who have in private thanked me for not just shutting down this discussion because they also don't feel that we as a community have got the balance completely right and feel that it is something we should still discuss.
Speaking of balance, please, let's remember every time this started it's because we have a banner on Reddit (I know shocking), with a subtle artwork with little color supporting a minority group and someone wanted it taken down, multiple times now. Many of our developers and contributors are LGTBQ+ and if you asked me the current path is the correct one. Taking down the rainbow symbol actually means more to those represented by it than those who insist on taking it down. This is not being militant nor activism, it's showing solidarity. Stopping this would send a far worse message to those who feel welcome because of it than it would to those who feel bothered or offended by it.
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?" If we have a good understanding of this then all these questions can just go away. For example on this list there seems to be a conciseness that having Pride Flags for Pride month while obviously being a statement (why would we do it otherwise), is a statement that's acceptable to the broader community.
On the other hand people have expressed that they are less comfortable with a statement year round as they believe it may alienate others which is a fair position to have as has been pointed out many organisations share this opinion. While we know that atleast several people share this opinion we currently have no idea how many do. Maybe having more concrete data on this would allow us to put together a clear statement and then we wouldn't have to have the question come up every few months etc.
Given how sensitive this subject is and how much fear there is from some people about speaking there own opinions probably the only way we as a project can know where the members actually sit is an anonymous poll.
I think it's clear by now the admins on Reddit and other communication platforms want to continue show solidarity for now and have no intention to comply with the demands. Having a poll is not going to change their determination as we have already seen.
Yes but at the end of the day the Reddit and other admins (along with any group using the openSUSE Trademark) are accountable to the board and so if the board were to decide that the conflict here should be resolved differently the reddit admins would be bound to that.
I am in no way suggesting that it's likely the board would do that in the current instance, they are equally in there right to decide we don't need more data on this question and to take no further action. If people disagree with that position then i'd strongly encourage them to run for the board at the end of the year on a platform of a less political openSUSE. If someone gets elected on that platform then we will maybe know that as a community we have gone too far one way or the other and there's community interest in making some level of change without having a poll on the issue directly.
Cheers.
-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
my goodness you are quick to "group" all as either strongly "for" *you* or if not for you, definitely against you. you surely are very knowledgable of all peoples, something I still struggle with at 82 years and don't expect to ever solve. have you ever considered that your presented attitude places people in a corner not of their choosing and perhaps, makes them take a side they would not have norrmally chosen. there are many minority groups with worthy causes besides your own and you do not have any claim to exclusivity, yet you do claim such. you have made it political and even if not, it has nothing to do with technology, which I believe to be the prime mover in our forum. you have made it a platform from which to preach your agenda rather than the discussion of openSUSE technology. does that define hypocrisy? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Op dinsdag 11 juli 2023 15:19:46 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:
my goodness you are quick to "group" all as either strongly "for" *you* or if not for you, definitely against you. you surely are very knowledgable of all peoples, something I still struggle with at 82 years and don't expect to ever solve.
have you ever considered that your presented attitude places people in a corner not of their choosing and perhaps, makes them take a side they would not have norrmally chosen.
there are many minority groups with worthy causes besides your own and you do not have any claim to exclusivity, yet you do claim such.
you have made it political and even if not, it has nothing to do with technology, which I believe to be the prime mover in our forum. you have made it a platform from which to preach your agenda rather than the discussion of openSUSE technology.
does that define hypocrisy?
-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, I consider this an off-topic personal attack. FYI Patrick, it's about colors that show when hovering an unofficial thing, barely a logo. You see a chance to attack a person, claiming that all of her writing are just personal agenda. | Like a.o. Henne and Richard already stated: openSUSE is 100% political, simply because it's not about tech, but about people.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team
* Knurpht-openSUSE <knurpht@opensuse.org> [07-11-23 09:59]:
Op dinsdag 11 juli 2023 15:19:46 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:
my goodness you are quick to "group" all as either strongly "for" *you* or if not for you, definitely against you. you surely are very knowledgable of all peoples, something I still struggle with at 82 years and don't expect to ever solve.
have you ever considered that your presented attitude places people in a corner not of their choosing and perhaps, makes them take a side they would not have norrmally chosen.
there are many minority groups with worthy causes besides your own and you do not have any claim to exclusivity, yet you do claim such.
you have made it political and even if not, it has nothing to do with technology, which I believe to be the prime mover in our forum. you have made it a platform from which to preach your agenda rather than the discussion of openSUSE technology.
does that define hypocrisy?
-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, I consider this an off-topic personal attack. FYI Patrick, it's about colors that show when hovering an unofficial thing, barely a logo. You see a chance to attack a person, claiming that all of her writing are just personal agenda. | Like a.o. Henne and Richard already stated: openSUSE is 100% political, simply because it's not about tech, but about people.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team
there was no *attack* no matter what you assert/assume. I merely stated an as it were, opposing opinion. are you perhaps displaying your personal dislike of me as you continually make insulting comments about my posts? I still believe the aim of the openSUSE project is technology and not politics, though you seem to believe otherwise. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Hey, On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?"
As one of the people who bootstrapped this community and helped to write our guiding principles I can tell you: We are a Free Software community that is 100% political. As *everything* involving people is politics. Which behaviors we value in people. How we collaborate, like how we govern what you can *do* and *say* here. The *options* different people have to collaborate to achieve our goals. Even *what* we do (Free Software) is to a large degree politics in the greater society. And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
If we have a good understanding of this then all these questions can just go away.
Good bye questions 👋 Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson
On 7/11/23 21:43, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
I think the root cause here is more the question of "How political should openSUSE as a project / organization be?"
As one of the people who bootstrapped this community and helped to write our guiding principles I can tell you: We are a Free Software community that is 100% political.
As *everything* involving people is politics. Which behaviors we value in people. How we collaborate, like how we govern what you can *do* and *say* here. The *options* different people have to collaborate to achieve our goals. Even *what* we do (Free Software) is to a large degree politics in the greater society.
And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific.
The politics of including as many people as possible from as many different backgrounds as possible is the MOST FOSS politics that can possibly be. Without our LGBTQ+ contributors we’d be worse off a silly rainbow colour scheme on a mouse over on a silly pirate logo was done by one of our LGBTQ+ contributors. We’ve had the logo like that for well over a year. Keeping it makes our LGBTQ+ cohort feel more welcome than if we remove it So, we shouldn’t remove it There’s plenty of places we don’t have weird pirate logos with rainbow mouseoverd, so people who disapprove of such things can still feel comfortable in those places. It’s really that simple and folk really shouldn’t try to make it any more complicated than that. But don’t you dare suggest that this is not about FOSS - this is the politics of people and without people FOSS is nothing but a bunch of code with no one writing it, maintaining it, or using it.
Hey, On 11.07.23 14:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 21:43, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific.
Hm, did I not just tell you that? Everything involving people in our community concerns us. Be it directly related to Free Software or not. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson
On 7/11/23 22:49, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 11.07.23 14:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 21:43, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific.
Hm, did I not just tell you that? Everything involving people in our community concerns us. Be it directly related to Free Software or not.
Yes, and at the end of the day in this thread some people (not me) have expressed that the way we show concern for some people may alienate some other people. However you choose to word it, where the community as a whole sits on these issues is almost certainly impossible to determine from a mailing list. So without actually knowing people will continue to complain that we are doing slightly too much of this or slightly not enough of that on this mailing list, which id rather not have to moderate every few months, hence my initial suggestion to find out where the community sits using whichever wording people think is best. Really my life would be easier if there was a more definitive answer when this topic comes up so we didn't need 30 mail threads everytime. Without that as an open community I feel rather hesitant to censor well thought out opinions and ideas that aren't directly violating the CoC. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Hey, On 11.07.23 16:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 22:49, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 14:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 21:43, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific.
Hm, did I not just tell you that? Everything involving people in our community concerns us. Be it directly related to Free Software or not.
Yes, and at the end of the day in this thread some people (not me) have expressed that the way we show concern for some people may alienate some other people.
Sure, I get that. Then the solution is to work the "conflict of interests" out among the members of this project. BTW an openSUSE Member¹ is something else than some anonymous rando writing to this mailing list, reddit or event using the software we produce. And guess what, we already have sorted this out *before* this whole project started in the values stated in the guiding principles! The guiding principles that you are required to support if you want to be a member. Let me cite: "We value diversity and pluralism as a way of addressing the needs of a broad variety of people." and "We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense." If you are an openSUSE Member and feel alienated by the project showing support to project members from a marginalized group then you didn't pay attention while joining openSUSE! I guess your only option is to pay attention now an re-evaluate if this is the right place for you. If you are not an openSUSE member: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and ciao! Henne ¹ https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Members -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson
On 7/12/23 22:28, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 11.07.23 16:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 22:49, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 14:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 21:43, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific.
Hm, did I not just tell you that? Everything involving people in our community concerns us. Be it directly related to Free Software or not.
Yes, and at the end of the day in this thread some people (not me) have expressed that the way we show concern for some people may alienate some other people.
Sure, I get that. Then the solution is to work the "conflict of interests" out among the members of this project. BTW an openSUSE Member¹ is something else than some anonymous rando writing to this mailing list, reddit or event using the software we produce.
And guess what, we already have sorted this out *before* this whole project started in the values stated in the guiding principles! The guiding principles that you are required to support if you want to be a member.
Let me cite:
"We value diversity and pluralism as a way of addressing the needs of a broad variety of people."
and
"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."
If you are an openSUSE Member and feel alienated by the project showing support to project members from a marginalized group then you didn't pay attention while joining openSUSE! I guess your only option is to pay attention now an re-evaluate if this is the right place for you.
If you are not an openSUSE member: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and ciao!
To me the heart of the issue is we are a diverse group of people from a diverse set of upbringings and depending on those upbringings people may have different feelings about the best way to interpret the above and what may or may not be the best way to be inclusive. But i'm happy to agree to disagree on that. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
To me the heart of the issue is we are a diverse group of people from a diverse set of upbringings and depending on those upbringings people may have different feelings about the best way to interpret the above and what may or may not be the best way to be inclusive. But i'm happy to agree to disagree on that.
And, to me the 'heart of the issue', is that if you (generic) have a problem with who some of our members *are*, that is on *you*. If you've been 'brought up' to be offended by, or uncomfortable with, LGBTQ+ people, or women, or minorities of any sort, then that is *your* problem. YOU are the one who needs help, and it is absolutely NOT the community or anyone else's job to make YOU comfortable. Indeed, if anything, it is OUR job, as a community to make YOU uncomfortable so that hopefully, you will change, and see the error of your ways. Emily Gonyer
Hey, On 13.07.23 12:18, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/12/23 22:28, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 16:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 22:49, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 14:36, Simon Lees wrote:
On 7/11/23 21:43, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 11.07.23 08:31, Simon Lees wrote:
And *all we do* is for the people of our community and the people of the world wide Free Software community we are part of. Ergo: openSUSE is 100% politics.
Well sure, then reframe the question to be about how involved openSUSE as a Project is in non foss politics if you would like to be more specific.
Hm, did I not just tell you that? Everything involving people in our community concerns us. Be it directly related to Free Software or not.
Yes, and at the end of the day in this thread some people (not me) have expressed that the way we show concern for some people may alienate some other people.
Sure, I get that. Then the solution is to work the "conflict of interests" out among the members of this project. BTW an openSUSE Member¹ is something else than some anonymous rando writing to this mailing list, reddit or event using the software we produce.
And guess what, we already have sorted this out *before* this whole project started in the values stated in the guiding principles! ... "We value diversity and pluralism as a way of addressing the needs of a broad variety of people."
To me the heart of the issue is we are a diverse group of people from a diverse set of upbringings and depending on those upbringings people may have different feelings about the best way to interpret the above and what may or may not be the best way to be inclusive. But i'm happy to > agree to disagree on that.
We don't have to disagree. We can talk it out, that's what we are here for. No matter our upbringing :-) The best way to be inclusive is not to include everyone. Including people who believe we should exclude or suppress certain other people is the line. That's just a variation of Poppers paradox of tolerance¹ And I can tell you that this is the "spirit" of our guiding principles because I was there when we wrote them :-) So anyone's upbringing can inspire whatever feelings about this being wrong (if it does, see above for options to act on this) but that will not change how the openSUSE Project got raised and which values it has. Henne ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson
On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:46:20 +0200, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
The best way to be inclusive is not to include everyone. Including people who believe we should exclude or suppress certain other people is the line. That's just a variation of Poppers paradox of tolerance¹ [...] ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Thanks for the reference. "In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise." -- Karl Popper The limit is when rational argument is made impossible by the intolerant. OpenSUSE, though, can demand more kindness from its members than does society at large. -- Robert Webb
Hey, n 13.07.23 22:19, Robert Webb wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 17:46:20 +0200, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote:
The best way to be inclusive is not to include everyone. Including people who believe we should exclude or suppress certain other people is the line. That's just a variation of Poppers paradox of tolerance¹ [...] ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
Thanks for the reference.
"In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise." -- Karl Popper
For sure, be reasonable. No one is perfect, we all have our biases, blind spots, thoughtless moments or bad moods. That is why the openSUSE Project *also* values to "listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way" (guiding principles quote again). Which is exactly what happened in this case BTW.
The limit is when rational argument is made impossible by the intolerant.
OpenSUSE, though, can demand more kindness from its members than does society at large.
Indeed. openSUSE even does something more drastic: We demand from you to accept the rules and decisions that the people that *do* produce. As long as they are in line with our guiding principles. Which this case is another nice example of. The openSUSE Members that *do* the reddit moderation for openSUSE decided for *whatever* reason that they won't take down an image even though there is *some* reason to do it. No poll among users, poll among our own members, the openSUSE board agreeing, this email thread or *anything* else will change this. This is the only governance rule we have around here: Who does the work decides. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson
On 08.07.23 13:34, Günter Dachs wrote:
I guess you can see that running an official query for that topic may set a dangerous precedent.
And yet it might be the only way to find out whether your assumption is true.
In that case, I'd suggest we also have an official poll for *every* package update that goes into Factory. I mean, it might upset my running system! m( -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 15:12:17 +0200, Günter Dachs wrote:
The "results" of the reddit poll are anything but official and do not "speak for themselves". A reddit poll is not the community either and can very easily be skewed in any direction one chooses.
We are all aware of this. It has been repeatedly mentioned and acknowledged from my side.
Also you, from earlier:
Like I tried with my reddit poll. So far the numbers speak for themselves.
Hmmm..... -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits
On Thu 2023-07-06, Günter Dachs wrote:
So if we want to be inclusive I propose a rotational system.
The Reddit moderators indicated they are open to using a different symbol/logo. A concrete proposal may be more promising than a generic request to remove something.
I also believe that the effect will be that we just forget/ignore about the meaning if we see this whole year around. Same as with seasonal customs/dishes.
The rainbow colors are not visible by default. They just appear if one hovers the mouse pointer over the logo. Frankly, this entire issue increasingly feels contrived and blown out of proportion (with 1/4 of all mails in the thread coming from one person).
Another reason is that I think openSUSE is just openSUSE. We don't need another symbol. The openSUSE symbol is enough. [...] Debian uses the Debian symbol. Gentoo the Gentoo symbol.
Except ... this is not the openSUSE logo. Far from it! I am surprised nobody has brought that up¹. Or suggested we use a logo which better reflects being open and friendly (which is not commonly associated with pirates²). That I would have found more comprehensible. Gerald ¹ Except for Richard mentioning it in passing. ² Yes, I get the fun aspect, no worries.
Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2023-07-06, Günter Dachs wrote:
So if we want to be inclusive I propose a rotational system. The Reddit moderators indicated they are open to using a different symbol/logo. A concrete proposal may be more promising than a generic request to remove something.
While under normal circumstances this is indeed the right approach, after the recent events I don't expect concrete proposals where the only goal is to take down the rainbow to have much of an impact. Best, Maurizio
Just wow.... it was just a little while ago we had this very conversation here, but I guess haters gonna hate and they just have to try and spread that hate. As much as one would like to consider this topic "different" from the earlier it really is the same. The difference this time around is that it was brought up in a polite manner on the same platform, then OP tried to undermine the volunteers on Reddit with a poll to make a point which turned out to be a waste of everyone's time since the entire thing got taken down by the Reddit spam filter so that was productive. It gets really interesting when the community here picks up this whole thing. How vocal a few people get about "this is a technology community, we should focus on that", and "I got far right friends and they're great", or "we shouldn't be political". So here's the thing (and this was pointed out by a number of people already) FOSS is political. You disagree with that it just means that you don't know FOSS as well as you think you do, suggest to look it up. It wasn't only a technology focused movement, and it still isn't. The code and tech we have around, and enjoy is contributed by volunteers mostly, and this is where I think there is a gap in heads. These volunteers are people. These people have lives, and on many occasions their lives are made miserable by bullies, your far right buddies and such. So let me ask you this - to all of you who are marching against the colors -: why does it hurt you so much that we're creating or at least trying to create a kind, inclusive, and welcoming community for all? Who hurt you that you feel so strongly against this? You enjoy, and profit of this community as much as the next guy. I see a lot of people on this thread asking for help from the community, and they don't check twice who the answer is coming from. You enjoy using the infra maintained by volunteers, and you don't second guess who is it taking care of it. My point is that that you're ok with taking from the community, but when we're showing support for minorities that is not ok with you. This might be news, but FOSS is built on __people__. You start going up against people and you end up alienating them, and they end up contributing somewhere else, and there is that likely chance that you will not end up filling the void they leave behind. Not talking only about the LGBTQ+ members, but people who don't feel the same way about far-right folks as you do. Word starts to spread that openSUSE is not an inclusive community, and Nazis are fine, and I guarantee that it will be the end of this project. You might be ok with having Nazis in your life, but I, or a big part of this community wouldn't, the better part of the world wouldn't. It was decided that this is a good path to go down on (as in being kind and inclusive), and we yet to see a real setback from doing so. Dealing with these type of incidents are not what moderators dream of doing when they're volunteering their time to a project, and we don't want the community to deal with this either. What you do in your life is your business, and non of us can have a say in that, but if you want to be part of a community that is actively pushing against your personal agenda it gets rough. Mostly because you're wasting everyone's time on a conversation that will likely not change the path we go down on. At the end of the day "those who do decide". My suggestion is - assuming that you want to be part of this community - to move on. Focus on what you want to do in this community. There are a plenty of things around where we would need help with. If you really want to focus on the tech part, there are plenty of things lying around so pick something up and focus on that and spare the mods from dealing with your personal issues. By now most of you know already how we deal with such actors on the various channels. If deeply religious people can work and live together with a rainbow in the logo I'm sure you can do it too. -- Br, A.
Hi everyone, As a reminder, please be respectful of responses and different points of view with regard to any further discussion on this thread. Please do not attack, insult or exhibit any unacceptable behavior. If you are not familiar with the latest board decisions, please familiarize yourself with decisions that were recently made by the board regarding governance, behavior within the project and how the board plans to proceed with those who overstep Our Expectations - https://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct Board notes are at https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meetings and you might have noticed a Formal Complaint Process we've put into place from our meeting early in the week. v/r Doug On 2023-07-06 13:01, Günter Dachs wrote:
Dear community,
I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well.
A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently.
To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo.
Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason.
Upon asking one of the mods in private he told me I should generally message the mods and not make a post and that this particular person didn't remove it and I need to contact the mods in general.
I have to say that I actually wasn't aware that I can message all mods of a subreddit. And I agree that this would have been the proper way. The next time I will definitely do it. But I don't see this as a justification to remove my post.
I continued to message the mods in general and then a longer discussion with one of them started. Where they explained that the community had several posts that were about the pride flag in the past and that they just removed my post because of negative experiences with posts regarding the flag in the past. I don't think it's fair to remove posts from individuals just because another person did a post that touched the topic before but was using rules breaking content. I feel like openSUSE is a community and we should listen and respect each other. Not censor people quietly.
After several messages back and forth I was pointing out again that I just wanted to hilight that pride month is over and remind the mods to switch back, since they said that last time they forgot this for one year.. I was curious why they are not doing it now and I was told they don't tolerate the intolerante. In the whole situation nobody was intolerant :-) I have nothing against the usage of the pride flag during pride month!
In the whole conversation I felt like stuff is put into my mouth that I didn't say at all. Just because you had certain experiences with some people you don't need to judge who starts a certain topic by the same book.
I was pretty disappointed with the whole situation and it made me think: If they have so many people in the community who speak about the logo change. Why do they resist it in pretense of defending something/someone? Nobody is attacking LGBTIQ+ people.
OpenSUSE is a community distribution and it seems the community isn't heard? Their posts removed if they don't fit the opinion of some mods?
Shouldn't the mods follow concrete rules and guidelines and not act arbitrary?
OpenSUSE is the makers distribution. I offered in the conversation several times to volunteer as a mod and change the logo myself. I got no response to that.
I would like to know who is deciding what the official community representation on reddit for our project should look like. In my opinion it should be the openSUSE community. I didn't find any poll, discussion or anything like that regarding using certain logos. But now I got the impression that several people asked for a logo change and were silenced.
Is the what you understand as open community work?
I propose to create a poll on each social media platform and use on each platform the result of the poll. Or to ask the openSUSE contributors, members or general community of their opinion. I dislike that a handful of people make the decision and ignore, and even harrass other members.
The slogan is that openSUSE is the makers distribution. But it looks like that right you are not allowed to make a change that you would like to see.
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism).
Mods need to be neutral and defend the code of conduct and rules of the specific social media platform. Not decide what they like and don't like and remove accordingly.
Everything else is just pretense. Power in the hands of a view. Who don't want to listen and respect the opinion of others who have different ideas about the project.
Yours, Günter
Hi all, Once again, as a reminder, please be respectful of responses and different points of view with regard to further discussion on this thread. Please do not overstep Our Expectations listed at https://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct and be mindful to not attack, insult or exhibit any unacceptable behavior. Again, Board notes are at https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meetings and please be aware of the Formal Complaint Process we've put into place from our recent meeting. v/r Doug On 2023-07-06 15:53, ddemaio openSUSE wrote:
Hi everyone, As a reminder, please be respectful of responses and different points of view with regard to any further discussion on this thread. Please do not attack, insult or exhibit any unacceptable behavior. If you are not familiar with the latest board decisions, please familiarize yourself with decisions that were recently made by the board regarding governance, behavior within the project and how the board plans to proceed with those who overstep Our Expectations - https://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct
Board notes are at https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board_meetings and you might have noticed a Formal Complaint Process we've put into place from our meeting early in the week.
v/r Doug
On 2023-07-06 13:01, Günter Dachs wrote:
Dear community,
I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well.
A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently.
To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo.
Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason.
Upon asking one of the mods in private he told me I should generally message the mods and not make a post and that this particular person didn't remove it and I need to contact the mods in general.
I have to say that I actually wasn't aware that I can message all mods of a subreddit. And I agree that this would have been the proper way. The next time I will definitely do it. But I don't see this as a justification to remove my post.
I continued to message the mods in general and then a longer discussion with one of them started. Where they explained that the community had several posts that were about the pride flag in the past and that they just removed my post because of negative experiences with posts regarding the flag in the past. I don't think it's fair to remove posts from individuals just because another person did a post that touched the topic before but was using rules breaking content. I feel like openSUSE is a community and we should listen and respect each other. Not censor people quietly.
After several messages back and forth I was pointing out again that I just wanted to hilight that pride month is over and remind the mods to switch back, since they said that last time they forgot this for one year.. I was curious why they are not doing it now and I was told they don't tolerate the intolerante. In the whole situation nobody was intolerant :-) I have nothing against the usage of the pride flag during pride month!
In the whole conversation I felt like stuff is put into my mouth that I didn't say at all. Just because you had certain experiences with some people you don't need to judge who starts a certain topic by the same book.
I was pretty disappointed with the whole situation and it made me think: If they have so many people in the community who speak about the logo change. Why do they resist it in pretense of defending something/someone? Nobody is attacking LGBTIQ+ people.
OpenSUSE is a community distribution and it seems the community isn't heard? Their posts removed if they don't fit the opinion of some mods?
Shouldn't the mods follow concrete rules and guidelines and not act arbitrary?
OpenSUSE is the makers distribution. I offered in the conversation several times to volunteer as a mod and change the logo myself. I got no response to that.
I would like to know who is deciding what the official community representation on reddit for our project should look like. In my opinion it should be the openSUSE community. I didn't find any poll, discussion or anything like that regarding using certain logos. But now I got the impression that several people asked for a logo change and were silenced.
Is the what you understand as open community work?
I propose to create a poll on each social media platform and use on each platform the result of the poll. Or to ask the openSUSE contributors, members or general community of their opinion. I dislike that a handful of people make the decision and ignore, and even harrass other members.
The slogan is that openSUSE is the makers distribution. But it looks like that right you are not allowed to make a change that you would like to see.
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism).
Mods need to be neutral and defend the code of conduct and rules of the specific social media platform. Not decide what they like and don't like and remove accordingly.
Everything else is just pretense. Power in the hands of a view. Who don't want to listen and respect the opinion of others who have different ideas about the project.
Yours, Günter
El jueves, 6 de julio de 2023 13:01:24 (CEST) Günter Dachs escribió:
Dear community,
I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well. A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently. To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo. Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason.
I have just seen that your poll has been removed. Interesting. [...]
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism).
From what I have read on @factory and @project, not everyone is happy that openSUSE is promoting a political movement. This excludes others. If you start promoting one particular minority group, why not others? There are other places for promoting political views. IMHO, if we want to be as inclusive as possible, we shouldn't use flags/symbols of any kind (except in some cases, like country forums). We already have a Code of conduct which welcomes everybody and gives examples of behaviour that fosters a positive environment. I would prefer to see a neutral openSUSE. openSUSE is about technology. BTW, shouldn't we be talking about how to fix a build/improve a package instead of this? :-)) Greetings, -- Javier Llorente
On 2023-07-07 22:07, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op vrijdag 7 juli 2023 22:01:31 CEST schreef Javier Llorente:
I have just seen that your poll has been removed. Interesting. The post and accounts have been deleted by the Reddit team. This for your information.
Interesting. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 7/7/23 22:01, Javier Llorente wrote:
El jueves, 6 de julio de 2023 13:01:24 (CEST) Günter Dachs escribió:
Dear community,
I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well. A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently. To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo. Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason. I have just seen that your poll has been removed. Interesting.
[...]
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism). From what I have read on @factory and @project, not everyone is happy that openSUSE is promoting a political movement. This excludes others. If you start promoting one particular minority group, why not others? There are other places for promoting political views.
IMHO, if we want to be as inclusive as possible, we shouldn't use flags/symbols of any kind (except in some cases, like country forums). We already have a Code of conduct which welcomes everybody and gives examples of behaviour that fosters a positive environment.
I would prefer to see a neutral openSUSE. openSUSE is about technology. BTW, shouldn't we be talking about how to fix a build/improve a package instead of this? :-))
Yeah, fully agree. Inclusion is not using any flags but being fully neutral. Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation. It worked perfectly for decades. As soon as you divert from technology topics, you will have long, heated, and completely off-topic debates, not solving anything. Just like this one ;-) Peter
Conversely, there are many, many people who are extremely proud of the openSUSE community for standing strong. Who may well have left long ago, had the community bowed to the likes of you and the handful of rabble rousers who continue to instigate every few months. Who continue to try to get rid of our code of conduct or the rainbows, or other things we do to stand up for minorities. But, I'm quite confident that you will all continue to fail. And that openSUSE will continue to grow and be stronger than ever. Not perhaps even in spite of your harassment and instigation, but because of it. Indeed, if anything, all you have done, and continue to do, is prove just how amazing, open and welcoming this community truly is. Emily On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 4:57 PM Peter Czanik <peter@czanik.hu> wrote:
On 7/7/23 22:01, Javier Llorente wrote:
El jueves, 6 de julio de 2023 13:01:24 (CEST) Günter Dachs escribió:
Dear community,
I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well. A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently. To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo. Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason. I have just seen that your poll has been removed. Interesting.
[...]
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism). From what I have read on @factory and @project, not everyone is happy that openSUSE is promoting a political movement. This excludes others. If you start promoting one particular minority group, why not others? There are other places for promoting political views.
IMHO, if we want to be as inclusive as possible, we shouldn't use flags/symbols of any kind (except in some cases, like country forums). We already have a Code of conduct which welcomes everybody and gives examples of behaviour that fosters a positive environment.
I would prefer to see a neutral openSUSE. openSUSE is about technology. BTW, shouldn't we be talking about how to fix a build/improve a package instead of this? :-))
Yeah, fully agree. Inclusion is not using any flags but being fully neutral. Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation. It worked perfectly for decades. As soon as you divert from technology topics, you will have long, heated, and completely off-topic debates, not solving anything. Just like this one ;-)
Peter
Conversely, there are many, many people who are extremely proud of the openSUSE community for standing strong. Who may well have left long ago, had the community bowed to the likes of you and the handful of rabble rousers who continue to instigate every few months. Who continue to try to get rid of our code of conduct or the rainbows, or other things we do to stand up for minorities.
I'm not trying to get rid of the CoC. If really so many people appear who would like to change the banner: why did you never put up a poll? Do you really know that there are more people "extremely proud of the openSUSE community" or do you just claim this? I am curious if you have any numbers. It is a bit of a contradiction to me to say "many many people want it like that" and on the other hand remove posts of people who would like a change. Just making them less visible. And when being asked for a poll declining this. Especially since the reddit poll that I created had a strong leaning to not using the rainbow colors permanently. It was only 124 people who voted to have those colors all year. 219 voted not at all. 93 voted during pride month. I'm aware the poll is not representative but I believe it is reason enough to look at the topic.
But, I'm quite confident that you will all continue to fail. And that openSUSE will continue to grow and be stronger than ever. Not perhaps even in spite of your harassment and instigation, but because of it.
Again: which harassment? I'm sorry to inform you that actually I received several private mails as a respone to this thread. People who said they feel terrible about how I am treated here. Some people also mentioning that they support my cause but don't feel comfortable to comment about it publicly. A community where members are afraid to speak their mind in fear of hostility and social exclusion doesn't sound like a warm and welcoming community to me.
Indeed, if anything, all you have done, and continue to do, is prove just how amazing, open and welcoming this community truly is.
I don't feel very welcome. Not because of rainbow colors, but because of the tone on this list. I'm also curious if you think Debian, Fedora, Gentoo are less welcoming? As a matter of fact I have gay friends who are active in each of those distributions. They never mentioned they don't feel welcome there. And that even without permanent rainbow colors in their logos. It would be really nice if the people in this project could step back for a minute and actually investigate how they behave. And if the reality they imagine is the reality that is present before them. I feel like I have heard plenty of times how everybody here wants the rainbow colors permanently. And yet plenty indicators hint to something else. But instead of investigating this, people are harassed, banned, removed and canceled. And then after silencing plenty of people suddenly a few people are left and say "look we are all happy". Plus some people who don't care about the topic and/or prefer to focus on the technical things. Which is fine obviously. Instead of listening to all opinions you chose to label the ones that don't agree with you as the "bad ones" who noone should listen to.
Am 10.07.23 um 10:03 schrieb Günter Dachs: Hi, I haven't posted for long on this list, being like Henne one of the "Grannies" of openSUSE. But this thread calls me, as it has so interesting parallels with a book I am currently reading which is called "Digital Fascism" [1] This discussion here seems to run very similar to the patterns described in the book. Somebody relatively unknown comes up with a "question", that nobody cares about, because the community shares a common sense of values, and (for example) is just fine with having the rainbow colors somewhere. The goal might be to stir this well working community up and create doubt, distraction and destabilization. Some of the discussion patterns also described in the book, and for with parallels here: - describe the "main crowd" as victim that looses control ("It is a bit of a contradiction to me to say "many many people want it like that" and on the other hand remove posts of people who would like a change. Just making them less visible.") - create a "invisible supporter group ("actually I received several private mails as a respone to this thread. People who said they feel terrible about how I am treated here.") - Claim to taken down ("I don't feel very welcome.") - etc. Of course I do not claim that Günter has any bad intentions. But .. we as the openSUSE community should not play our part in that style of discussion imo. We are openSUSE, we are political, we ever have been, and we have been open and inclusive for ever. We just do not need the discussion if we should remove a banner somewhere, because our culture is that the community fellow who put that up will also feel the responsibility to remove it again when she feels like it is the time. That is a culture we can be proud of and that has made us successful. I think we have fed the troll enough, let's stop this fruitless and destructive discussion and do something that serves our values of openess, freedom, diversity and tolerance. We do not have to legitimate ourself for anything. And if somebody does not like that, they have the freedom to leave us at any time. Klaas [1] https://www.amazon.de/Digitaler-Faschismus-sozialen-Medien-Rechtsextremismus...
Conversely, there are many, many people who are extremely proud of the openSUSE community for standing strong. Who may well have left long ago, had the community bowed to the likes of you and the handful of rabble rousers who continue to instigate every few months. Who continue to try to get rid of our code of conduct or the rainbows, or other things we do to stand up for minorities.
I'm not trying to get rid of the CoC.
If really so many people appear who would like to change the banner: why did you never put up a poll? Do you really know that there are more people "extremely proud of the openSUSE community" or do you just claim this? I am curious if you have any numbers. It is a bit of a contradiction to me to say "many many people want it like that" and on the other hand remove posts of people who would like a change. Just making them less visible. And when being asked for a poll declining this. Especially since the reddit poll that I created had a strong leaning to not using the rainbow colors permanently. It was only 124 people who voted to have those colors all year. 219 voted not at all. 93 voted during pride month. I'm aware the poll is not representative but I believe it is reason enough to look at the topic.
But, I'm quite confident that you will all continue to fail. And that openSUSE will continue to grow and be stronger than ever. Not perhaps even in spite of your harassment and instigation, but because of it.
Again: which harassment?
I'm sorry to inform you that actually I received several private mails as a respone to this thread. People who said they feel terrible about how I am treated here. Some people also mentioning that they support my cause but don't feel comfortable to comment about it publicly.
A community where members are afraid to speak their mind in fear of hostility and social exclusion doesn't sound like a warm and welcoming community to me.
Indeed, if anything, all you have done, and continue to do, is prove just how amazing, open and welcoming this community truly is.
I don't feel very welcome. Not because of rainbow colors, but because of the tone on this list.
I'm also curious if you think Debian, Fedora, Gentoo are less welcoming? As a matter of fact I have gay friends who are active in each of those distributions. They never mentioned they don't feel welcome there. And that even without permanent rainbow colors in their logos.
It would be really nice if the people in this project could step back for a minute and actually investigate how they behave. And if the reality they imagine is the reality that is present before them. I feel like I have heard plenty of times how everybody here wants the rainbow colors permanently. And yet plenty indicators hint to something else. But instead of investigating this, people are harassed, banned, removed and canceled. And then after silencing plenty of people suddenly a few people are left and say "look we are all happy". Plus some people who don't care about the topic and/or prefer to focus on the technical things. Which is fine obviously.
Instead of listening to all opinions you chose to label the ones that don't agree with you as the "bad ones" who noone should listen to.
On 08.07.23 22:57, Peter Czanik wrote:
On 7/7/23 22:01, Javier Llorente wrote:
El jueves, 6 de julio de 2023 13:01:24 (CEST) Günter Dachs escribió:
Dear community, I would like to inform myself about the decision making in the openSUSE community. And probably start a discussion about it as well. A couple of days ago I posted a reminder on reddit that pride month is over and that the mods shouldn't forget to update the logo to the regular one. When you hover the mouse over the logo it changes to the one with the pride flag. Which is great for pride month. But I don't see any reason to have this permanently. To my knowledge the logo was always a temporary thing that is changed at special occasions and holidays. To my knowledge each time this occasion is over we switch back to the default logo. Shortly after my post got removed. With no explanation and no reason. I have just seen that your poll has been removed. Interesting.
[...]
openSUSE is an open welcoming community for everybody. And to reflect this we need to respect everybody. And use our netural logos and artwork. To increase our respect to everybody, we can set signs during certain evens/periods. Using pride flags during pride month. Using the cross during christmas. This artwork is extra work. And needs to be contributed by the community. So if someone makes it we should take it, if it is not part of a damaging or forbidden group/ideology (like Nazism). From what I have read on @factory and @project, not everyone is happy that openSUSE is promoting a political movement. This excludes others. If you start promoting one particular minority group, why not others? There are other places for promoting political views.
IMHO, if we want to be as inclusive as possible, we shouldn't use flags/symbols of any kind (except in some cases, like country forums). We already have a Code of conduct which welcomes everybody and gives examples of behaviour that fosters a positive environment.
I would prefer to see a neutral openSUSE. openSUSE is about technology. BTW, shouldn't we be talking about how to fix a build/improve a package instead of this? :-))
Yeah, fully agree. Inclusion is not using any flags but being fully neutral. Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation. It worked perfectly for decades. As soon as you divert from technology topics, you will have long, heated, and completely off-topic debates, not solving anything. Just like this one ;-)
Are you serious about this? Nazis working well with people that have other ideas? Have you noticed what happened a few decades ago? Are you calling that "worked perfectly"? Cheesus! I really hope you have a twisted understanding of what a Nazi is!
Peter
Jochen
On 7/11/23 17:02, Jochen Breuer wrote:
On 08.07.23 22:57, Peter Czanik wrote:
Yeah, fully agree. Inclusion is not using any flags but being fully neutral. Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation. It worked perfectly for decades. As soon as you divert from technology topics, you will have long, heated, and completely off-topic debates, not solving anything. Just like this one ;-)
Are you serious about this? Nazis working well with people that have other ideas? Have you noticed what happened a few decades ago? Are you calling that "worked perfectly"? Cheesus! I really hope you have a twisted understanding of what a Nazi is!
Yes, I'm serious about this. I knew two people with far right views. I learned about their political views just accidentally and years later I worked with them. They never shared their views publicly. But unlike me, under the surface they were not politically neutral. However, they are some of the best coders and managers I have ever known, and learning about their political background did not change my opinion about their technology achievements. Personally I do not care about people's political views in a technology community, like openSUSE, FreeBSD, Fedora, etc. I only care about technological contributions. And that's how I can have friends in all extremes of the political, religious, etc. spectrum. And this is one of the reasons why I prefer full neutrality in technology projects. It allows people who have completely opposing religious, political, whatever views outside of the technology world to work perfectly together on technologies. Peter
Hi Peter, On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 18:00 Peter Czanik, <peter@czanik.hu> wrote:
On 7/11/23 17:02, Jochen Breuer wrote:
On 08.07.23 22:57, Peter Czanik wrote:
Yeah, fully agree. Inclusion is not using any flags but being fully neutral. Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation. It worked perfectly for decades. As soon as you divert from technology topics, you will have long, heated, and completely off-topic debates, not solving anything. Just like this one ;-)
Are you serious about this? Nazis working well with people that have other ideas? Have you noticed what happened a few decades ago? Are you calling that "worked perfectly"? Cheesus! I really hope you have a twisted understanding of what a Nazi is!
Yes, I'm serious about this. I knew two people with far right views. I learned about their political views just accidentally and years later I worked with them. They never shared their views publicly. But unlike me, under the surface they were not politically neutral. However, they are some of the best coders and managers I have ever known, and learning about their political background did not change my opinion about their technology achievements.
Personally I do not care about people's political views in a technology community, like openSUSE, FreeBSD, Fedora, etc. I only care about technological contributions. And that's how I can have friends in all extremes of the political, religious, etc. spectrum. And this is one of the reasons why I prefer full neutrality in technology projects. It allows people who have completely opposing religious, political, whatever views outside of the technology world to work perfectly together on technologies.
Peter
I'm amazed by you story. Good for you that you did that. However I wouldn't go near them even with a 10ft cattle prod. Simply because I do not want to be associated with that kind of folks. Also being part of a minority group makes you wary of this, because you know in essence they hate your guts. In that sence it's at best unwise for people of colour or LGBT people to be needing to work together. That's a disaster waiting to happen. I don't think a project as openSUSE is good place for Nazis. But that's my opinion of course. Kind regards, Natasha
Work Together with Nazis that part was missing... Whoops On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 18:19 Natasha Ament, <stacheldrahtje@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Peter,
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023, 18:00 Peter Czanik, <peter@czanik.hu> wrote:
On 7/11/23 17:02, Jochen Breuer wrote:
On 08.07.23 22:57, Peter Czanik wrote:
Yeah, fully agree. Inclusion is not using any flags but being fully neutral. Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation. It worked perfectly for decades. As soon as you divert from technology topics, you will have long, heated, and completely off-topic debates, not solving anything. Just like this one ;-)
Are you serious about this? Nazis working well with people that have other ideas? Have you noticed what happened a few decades ago? Are you calling that "worked perfectly"? Cheesus! I really hope you have a twisted understanding of what a Nazi is!
Yes, I'm serious about this. I knew two people with far right views. I learned about their political views just accidentally and years later I worked with them. They never shared their views publicly. But unlike me, under the surface they were not politically neutral. However, they are some of the best coders and managers I have ever known, and learning about their political background did not change my opinion about their technology achievements.
Personally I do not care about people's political views in a technology community, like openSUSE, FreeBSD, Fedora, etc. I only care about technological contributions. And that's how I can have friends in all extremes of the political, religious, etc. spectrum. And this is one of the reasons why I prefer full neutrality in technology projects. It allows people who have completely opposing religious, political, whatever views outside of the technology world to work perfectly together on technologies.
Peter
I'm amazed by you story. Good for you that you did that. However I wouldn't go near them even with a 10ft cattle prod. Simply because I do not want to be associated with that kind of folks. Also being part of a minority group makes you wary of this, because you know in essence they hate your guts.
In that sence it's at best unwise for people of colour or LGBT people to be needing to work together. That's a disaster waiting to happen.
I don't think a project as openSUSE is good place for Nazis. But that's my opinion of course.
Kind regards,
Natasha
Hey, On 08.07.23 22:57, Peter Czanik wrote:
On 7/7/23 22:01, Javier Llorente wrote:
El jueves, 6 de julio de 2023 13:01:24 (CEST) Günter Dachs escribió:
I would prefer to see a neutral openSUSE.
Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation.
Fascism is not an opinion or a believe, it's a crime. And your positive personal anecdotal experience with Fascists does not matter to the openSUSE Project. If anyone does or says *anything*, even remotely, fascist around here I will personally show them the door :-) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson
On 2023-07-12 17:52, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 08.07.23 22:57, Peter Czanik wrote:
On 7/7/23 22:01, Javier Llorente wrote:
El jueves, 6 de julio de 2023 13:01:24 (CEST) Günter Dachs escribió:
I would prefer to see a neutral openSUSE.
Neo-nazis and LMBTQ, Catholics, Muslims, and atheist working peacefully together on fun technologies, like Linux distros, BSD variants, open source software, not caring about the others political, sexual or religious orientation.
Fascism is not an opinion or a believe, it's a crime.
Unfortunately, not everywhere. In my country, for instance, there is a party which is arguably fascist and is getting significant votes and can get to central government. It is actually part of several regional/local governments. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Unfortunately, not everywhere. In my country, for instance, there is a party which is arguably fascist and is getting significant votes and can get to central government. It is actually part of several regional/local governments.
Whether or not it is legally a crime in your country or my country or anywhere else is not the point, or relevant. The relevant question is whether or not we, as a community, need to tolerate fascism. And, the answer to that is an emphatic and absolute NO. Emily Gonyer
participants (28)
-
Ancor Gonzalez Sosa -
Attila Pinter -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Charlie Chan -
ddemaio openSUSE -
Emily Gonyer -
Felix Miata -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Günter Dachs -
Henne Vogelsang -
Javier Llorente -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Jens aka. Karatek -
Jim Henderson -
Jochen Breuer -
Klaas Freitag -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Lars Marowsky-Bree -
Maurizio Galli -
Natasha Ament -
Patrick Shanahan -
Peter Czanik -
Richard Brown -
Robert Webb -
Simon Lees -
Stefan Seyfried -
Thorsten Bro | openSUSE Member