7 Aug
2020
7 Aug
'20
8:22 p.m.
Hi all,
as you can see in the minutes [1] for the last board meeting on 2020-08-04 we
once again talked about the long standing topic of an openSUSE foundation.
This came up in the light of the past months and the recent thread on this
mailing list where governance structures were discussed. [2]
Quoting the minutes "We need to broaden the group of people working on
foundation" this is where we want to give the topic a push here on project ML.
To give everyone an overview of what is done until now I condensed documents
floating around in the wiki at "Current state". [3]
*The why*
The openSUSE community has the reputation of being progressive and thriving in
terms of technical aspects. This is where the "do-ocracy" works impressively.
Yet our organizational structure sometimes lacks behind, which is why we need
to talk.
There are good reasons for an independent openSUSE legal entity that have been
already been discussed extensively before. Yet this comes with governance
structures being not only necessary but also obligate. Having had structural
challenging times recently and an obvious need from the community for
progressive discussions makes the picture complete somehow.
So throwing both topics together is just a logical consequence there.
*To do*
So I hereby invite everyone interested to chime in. Please get to know what's
already been done on the first hand. And then give input, constructive
criticism and ideas on both parts of the story - Foundation and Governance.
*A few thoughts on the practical side*
To add comments on the existing stuff it might be good to copy text to some
etherpad for collaborative work. If desired we also can set up a conference
call or even revive the pre-existing mailing list. [4] [5]
Looking forward to healthy and interesting discussions!
vinz.
[1] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00064.html
[2] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-07/msg00085.html ff.
[3] https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation
[4] https://etherpad.opensuse.org
[5] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-foundation/
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8 Aug
8 Aug
6 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 20:22, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz(a)vinzv.de> wrote:
*A few thoughts on the practical side*
To add comments on the existing stuff it might be good to copy text
to some
etherpad for collaborative work. If desired we also can set up a
conference
call or even revive the pre-existing mailing list. [4] [5]
+1 on the call and/or some kind of in real time meeting (be it irc,
matrix, discord, telegram, whatever)
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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19 Aug
19 Aug
11:01 p.m.
Am Freitag, 7. August 2020, 20:22:47 CEST schrieb Vinzenz Vietzke:
*To do*
So I hereby invite everyone interested to chime in. Please get to know
what's already been done on the first hand. And then give input,
constructive criticism and ideas on both parts of the story - Foundation
and Governance.
As a follow-up to the above I'd like to remind everyone on this topic.
Hopefully the low recent outcome is just because of other things or due to
vacation time?
vinz.
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24 Aug
24 Aug
12:15 a.m.
Hi Vinz, Hi all,
Le vendredi 07 août 2020 à 20:22 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke a écrit :
Hi all,
as you can see in the minutes [1] for the last board meeting on 2020-
08-04 we
once again talked about the long standing topic of an openSUSE
foundation.
This came up in the light of the past months and the recent thread on
this
mailing list where governance structures were discussed. [2]
Quoting the minutes "We need to broaden the group of people working
on
foundation" this is where we want to give the topic a push here on
project ML.
To give everyone an overview of what is done until now I condensed
documents
floating around in the wiki at "Current state". [3]
*The why*
The openSUSE community has the reputation of being progressive and
thriving in
terms of technical aspects. This is where the "do-ocracy" works
impressively.
Yet our organizational structure sometimes lacks behind, which is why
we need
to talk.
There are good reasons for an independent openSUSE legal entity that
have been
already been discussed extensively before. Yet this comes with
governance
structures being not only necessary but also obligate. Having had
structural
challenging times recently and an obvious need from the community
for
progressive discussions makes the picture complete somehow.
So throwing both topics together is just a logical consequence there.
I think that working on both subjects at the same time is not
necessarily a good thing. On the one hand because there is little
chance that these subjects will attract a lot of people, on the other
hand because the mode of governance will be closely linked to the final
form of the Foundation, in particular as regards the nature of its
links with SUSE. In my opinion, it is wiser to wait until we have made
progress on the subject of the Foundation before considering its mode
of governance.
This does not preclude collecting ideas from the community, but it
would be better not having to start working on this topic then change a
lot of things because the solutions found won't fit in the final
Foundation bylaws.
*To do*
So I hereby invite everyone interested to chime in. Please get to
know what's
already been done on the first hand. And then give input,
constructive
criticism and ideas on both parts of the story - Foundation and
Governance.
It's a subject that interests me, I'm also currently working on the
issue of governance at my work (in a cooperative society). The recent
and unfortunate discussions have shown that this is an important
subject which the community cannot ignore and which cannot simply rest
on the shoulders of the Council.
The content of the wiki [3] is a good starting point which I think
needs to be refined.
I started an Etherpad [6] by rereading the original topic [7] (over a
year ago already!) and noting some points in order to summarize past
discussions.
I also tried to look for resources (in English) on the subject (German
Stiftung) in order to see more clearly concerning the legal aspects.
[8] [9].
*A few thoughts on the practical side*
To add comments on the existing stuff it might be good to copy text
to some
etherpad for collaborative work. If desired we also can set up a
conference
call or even revive the pre-existing mailing list. [4] [5]
I support a mailing list which I find more open and easier to follow
for those who wish to contribute. There is no need to be online all the
time and it's easier to catch up on discussions
Looking forward to healthy and interesting
discussions!
vinz.
[1] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-08/msg00064.html
[2] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2020-07/msg00085.html
ff.
[3] https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation
[4] https://etherpad.opensuse.org
[5] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-foundation/
Have a nice day.
[6] https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/00-foundation-ml-abstract
[7] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00233.html
[8] https://www.cof.org/content/nonprofit-law-germany
|9]
https://www.stiftungen.org/en/home/german-foundations/establishing-a-founda…
--
Sébastien 'sogal' Poher
When there's no more room at school, the dumb will
walk the Earth!
8:24 a.m.
Hi,
On 8/24/20 7:45 AM, Sébastien 'sogal' Poher wrote:
I have also struggled with this part and have mostly relied on German
speaking board members and somewhat people from other foundations. Here
is a basic summary of the key points as I remember them, I guess it
should also go into the wiki somewhere.
**The Charter** - This is a statement on the aims goals and mission of
the foundation, once the foundation is incorporated this statement can't
be changed, A well written charter will give the community and SUSE
comfort that the board of the foundation can't go off and start doing
something radically different. For example it could state that the
foundation supports free and open software / (hardware?) projects and
that all the code / designs must be publicly accessible. At the same
time we need to be careful not to limit ourselves to certain
technologies etc, because who knows if Linux for example will be the
best kernel in 50 years.
**50k Seed** - Unlike many other forms of foundation setting up a
Stiftung requires 50k as a seed fund. This is something previous boards
have also discussed with SUSE.
**No predefined legal structure.** - Stiftung's don't have a predefined
governance structure in terms of the board makeup and how they are
appointed which gives us significant freedom in this area. However there
are quite strict rules around keeping financial accounts and yearly
reporting to the point where it is unreasonable to be able to expect
volunteers to do this work.
For reference a Stiftung is the same legal structure Libre Office uses
so we can use them as legal precedence and gain alot of ideas from what
they did.
Cheers
--
Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Hi Vinz, Hi all,
Le vendredi 07 août 2020 à 20:22 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke a écrit :
One of the reasons for choosing a Stiftung over a E.V is that a Stiftung
gives us a huge amount of flexibility in terms of governance models,
some of the previous boards advice is that we should be able to take our
existing "board election rules" and "membership rules" drop the fact
that currently the chairman can veto board decisions and it should be
possible to keep basically our current governance model. The previous
boards proposals to both the community and SUSE were all around keeping
the governance model around the same as what it currently is.
I have some more "minor" amendments i'll propose when I have some time
with the idea to have them discussed etc so that the community can make
an informed vote on adopting them or some variation of them during the
board elections at the end of the year.
But if people in the community feel that we should look at significantly
changing our governance structure by adding additional body's or
changing the roles of the existing board then now is the right time for
those discussions so that we can put it to the membership and SUSE at
the same time.
Hi all,
as you can see in the minutes [1] for the last board meeting on 2020-
08-04 we
once again talked about the long standing topic of an openSUSE
foundation.
This came up in the light of the past months and the recent thread on
this
mailing list where governance structures were discussed. [2]
Quoting the minutes "We need to broaden the group of people working
on
foundation" this is where we want to give the topic a push here on
project ML.
To give everyone an overview of what is done until now I condensed
documents
floating around in the wiki at "Current state". [3]
*The why*
The openSUSE community has the reputation of being progressive and
thriving in
terms of technical aspects. This is where the "do-ocracy" works
impressively.
Yet our organizational structure sometimes lacks behind, which is why
we need
to talk.
There are good reasons for an independent openSUSE legal entity that
have been
already been discussed extensively before. Yet this comes with
governance
structures being not only necessary but also obligate. Having had
structural
challenging times recently and an obvious need from the community
for
progressive discussions makes the picture complete somehow.
So throwing both topics together is just a logical consequence there.
I think that working on both subjects at the same time is not
necessarily a good thing. On the one hand because there is little
chance that these subjects will attract a lot of people, on the other
hand because the mode of governance will be closely linked to the final
form of the Foundation, in particular as regards the nature of its
links with SUSE. In my opinion, it is wiser to wait until we have made
progress on the subject of the Foundation before considering its mode
of governance.
This does not preclude collecting ideas from the community, but it
would be better not having to start working on this topic then change a
lot of things because the solutions found won't fit in the final
Foundation bylaws. *To do*
So I hereby invite everyone interested to chime in. Please get to
know what's
already been done on the first hand. And then give input,
constructive
criticism and ideas on both parts of the story - Foundation and
Governance.
It's a subject that interests me, I'm also currently working on the
issue of governance at my work (in a cooperative society). The recent
and unfortunate discussions have shown that this is an important
subject which the community cannot ignore and which cannot simply rest
on the shoulders of the Council.
The content of the wiki [3] is a good starting point which I think
needs to be refined.
I started an Etherpad [6] by rereading the original topic [7] (over a
year ago already!) and noting some points in order to summarize past
discussions.
I also tried to look for resources (in English) on the subject (German
Stiftung) in order to see more clearly concerning the legal aspects.
[8] [9].
8:58 p.m.
Hi all,
Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 15:54 +0930, Simon Lees a écrit :
If you're still working on this topic, how
does the group of community
members Vinz wants to bring together can help in this task?
[0] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation_glossary
--
Sébastien Poher
Hi,
[...]
One of the reasons for choosing a Stiftung over a E.V
is that a
Stiftung
gives us a huge amount of flexibility in terms of governance models,
some of the previous boards advice is that we should be able to take
our
existing "board election rules" and "membership rules" drop the fact
that currently the chairman can veto board decisions and it should be
possible to keep basically our current governance model. The previous
boards proposals to both the community and SUSE were all around
keeping
the governance model around the same as what it currently is.
I have some more "minor" amendments i'll
propose when I have some
time
with the idea to have them discussed etc so that the community can
make
an informed vote on adopting them or some variation of them during
the
board elections at the end of the year.
But if people in the community feel that we should look at
significantly
changing our governance structure by adding additional body's or
changing the roles of the existing board then now is the right time
for
those discussions so that we can put it to the membership and SUSE at
the same time.
Apart from specifying the future role of the current representative
(will the future SUSE ambassador necessarily be the representative of
the Foundation board?), I do not see any particular need to radically
change the mode of governance.
*To do*
So I hereby invite everyone interested to chime in. Please get to
know what's
already been done on the first hand. And then give input,
constructive
criticism and ideas on both parts of the story - Foundation and
Governance.
It's a subject that interests me, I'm also currently working on the
issue of governance at my work (in a cooperative society). The
recent
and unfortunate discussions have shown that this is an important
subject which the community cannot ignore and which cannot simply
rest
on the shoulders of the Council.
The content of the wiki [3] is a good starting point which I think
needs to be refined.
I started an Etherpad [6] by rereading the original topic [7] (over
a
year ago already!) and noting some points in order to summarize
past
discussions.
I also tried to look for resources (in English) on the subject
(German
Stiftung) in order to see more clearly concerning the legal
aspects.
[8] [9].
>
I have also struggled with this part and
have mostly relied on German
speaking board members and somewhat people from other foundations.
Here
is a basic summary of the key points as I remember them, I guess it
should also go into the wiki somewhere.
I have created a "glossary" page [0] to gather and explain the
Foundation terminology.
**The Charter** - This is a statement on the aims goals and mission
of
the foundation, once the foundation is incorporated this statement
can't
be changed, A well written charter will give the community and SUSE
comfort that the board of the foundation can't go off and start doing
something radically different. For example it could state that the
foundation supports free and open software / (hardware?) projects and
that all the code / designs must be publicly accessible. At the same
time we need to be careful not to limit ourselves to certain
technologies etc, because who knows if Linux for example will be the
best kernel in 50 years.
**50k Seed** - Unlike many other forms of foundation setting up a
Stiftung requires 50k as a seed fund. This is something previous
boards
have also discussed with SUSE.
**No predefined legal structure.** - Stiftung's don't have a
predefined
governance structure in terms of the board makeup and how they are
appointed which gives us significant freedom in this area. However
there
are quite strict rules around keeping financial accounts and yearly
reporting to the point where it is unreasonable to be able to expect
volunteers to do this work.
For reference a Stiftung is the same legal structure Libre Office
uses
so we can use them as legal precedence and gain alot of ideas from
what
they did.
25 Aug
25 Aug
2:27 p.m.
On 8/25/20 4:28 AM, Sébastien 'sogal' Poher wrote:
Hi all,
Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 15:54 +0930, Simon Lees a écrit :
The previous board that wrote the initial proposal came to pretty much
the same proposal, we believed it made sense for SUSE Management to
appoint someone to act as the communication channel between SUSE and the
community and the most effective way for them to do that would be still
having a position on the board. Our question was more around whether or
not it should be a voting member. At the time we decided to leave that
for discussion with the community.
Hi,
[...]
But if people in the community feel that we
should look at
significantly
changing our governance structure by adding additional body's or
changing the roles of the existing board then now is the right time
for
those discussions so that we can put it to the membership and SUSE at
the same time.
Apart from specifying the future role of the current representative
(will the future SUSE ambassador necessarily be the representative of
the Foundation board?), I do not see any particular need to radically
change the mode of governance.
*To do*
So I hereby invite everyone interested to chime in. Please get to
know what's
already been done on the first hand. And then give input,
constructive
criticism and ideas on both parts of the story - Foundation and
Governance.
It's a subject that interests me, I'm also currently working on the
issue of governance at my work (in a cooperative society). The
recent
and unfortunate discussions have shown that this is an important
subject which the community cannot ignore and which cannot simply
rest
on the shoulders of the Council.
The content of the wiki [3] is a good starting point which I think
needs to be refined.
I started an Etherpad [6] by rereading the original topic [7] (over
a
year ago already!) and noting some points in order to summarize
past
discussions.
I also tried to look for resources (in English) on the subject
(German
Stiftung) in order to see more clearly concerning the legal
aspects.
[8] [9].
If you're still working on this topic,
how does the group of community
members Vinz wants to bring together can help in this task?
I have spent a considerable amount of time in the last 3 years looking
at the topic of an openSUSE Foundation which is where I have gained most
of this knowledge, A previous board got to the point of having an
initial discussion draft available and started some community
discussion, we are now at a point where we need to continue to move
forward and to do that we would like to have as broad a range of
community opinions and views as possible, hence rather then continuing
to just do this work from inside the board we are now opening it up to
any interested members of the community to help push the foundation
forward so discussions and work will be done by the group of community
members interested in the foundation which will likely include some
board members (as some of us are community members interested in the
foundation) and non board members. If that makes sense.
Cheers
--
Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
>
I have also struggled with this part
and have mostly relied on German
speaking board members and somewhat people from other foundations.
Here
is a basic summary of the key points as I remember them, I guess it
should also go into the wiki somewhere.
I have created a "glossary" page [0] to gather and explain the
Foundation terminology.
**The Charter** - This is a statement on the aims goals and mission
of
the foundation, once the foundation is incorporated this statement
can't
be changed, A well written charter will give the community and SUSE
comfort that the board of the foundation can't go off and start doing
something radically different. For example it could state that the
foundation supports free and open software / (hardware?) projects and
that all the code / designs must be publicly accessible. At the same
time we need to be careful not to limit ourselves to certain
technologies etc, because who knows if Linux for example will be the
best kernel in 50 years.
**50k Seed** - Unlike many other forms of foundation setting up a
Stiftung requires 50k as a seed fund. This is something previous
boards
have also discussed with SUSE.
**No predefined legal structure.** - Stiftung's don't have a
predefined
governance structure in terms of the board makeup and how they are
appointed which gives us significant freedom in this area. However
there
are quite strict rules around keeping financial accounts and yearly
reporting to the point where it is unreasonable to be able to expect
volunteers to do this work.
For reference a Stiftung is the same legal structure Libre Office
uses
so we can use them as legal precedence and gain alot of ideas from
what
they did.
5:23 p.m.
Le 25/08/2020 à 14:27, Simon Lees a écrit :
discussion, we are now at a point where we need to
continue to move
forward and to do that we would like to have as broad a range of
community opinions and views as possible, hence rather then continuing
not to bother people uninterested by this subject, may be we could
revive foundation list :-)
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-foundation/
jdd
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5:56 p.m.
Am Dienstag, 25. August 2020, 17:23:37 CEST schrieb jdd(a)dodin.org:
Yes, we discussed this already as an option if the traffic about foundation
gets too high on this list. Which is IMO not the case yet....
Cheers
Axel
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discussion, we
are now at a point where we need to continue to move
forward and to do that we would like to have as broad a range of
community opinions and views as possible, hence rather then continuing
not to bother people uninterested by this subject, may be we could
revive foundation list
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-foundation/
154
days inactive
172
days old
8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Axel Braun -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Simon Lees -
Stasiek Michalski -
Sébastien 'sogal' Poher -
Vinzenz Vietzke