-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-14 12:05, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 11:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The same is happening with Gnome 3: there are dozens of new threads about G3 there.

Bad marketing to ask for help :) we certainly do not want more users asking why it does not work... the answer is simple: we did not publish availability of the gnome3 repo yet...

Well, you see, you know that, I do not. We need people that know all this to come down and talk. There are hundreds of users there and those in the know are very scarce. Gnome 3 has caused a turmoil "down there". There are many people testing it. Some have used a live cd (openSUSE 11.4 Gnome 3, I understand), some have added the repo. That's a fact, there are many people installing it and asking questions. Me, I can't help them, I know nothing of G3.

Make a sticky post in the forum, tell people not to use it unless they are savy enough to fix it for themselves (it does work when you do 'the right thing(tm)'

Too late... I just posted that request, for somebody who can to make that sticky. I can't. But G3 is just a sample: I'm asking people here to get wet and help. Don't limit yourselves to the mail lists. For example, they have a new subforum dedicated to Tumbleweed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2mze4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XEEQCeLh9lwasHCHnSiOe7Mf199Iy5 pF0AnApRCnS7cbvR+U0SHw1zxKe3L+Rr =jiSj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:30:41 +0200, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

We need more "proxy" people like you that are using both mailing lists and IRC (where most of the devs are) and forums (where most of the users are). The problem is not in the web interface, but in signal-to-noise ratio and using NNTP will not solve this problem.

There are several of us who do participate in both venues, but it seems that we need better communications about when things are going to be ready. For example, I saw the GNOME3 stable repo show up and assumed (and now I know better than to do that) that because it was part of STABLE: that it was - you know - stable. ;) Maybe what we need to do is have some forewarning (even on this ML) when a repo is being created that it's not ready, and an announcement here that it is ready when it is. ie, a formal notification process that we all can use so we know and aren't going on what seems (at the time) like common sense. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 00:22:47 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Traffic is too high for a volunteer proxy, unless there is an organized body of proxies. It makes more sense to me that helpers have a peep at the forums, too. Devs going there can learn first hand what users are doing with their creations, so IMNSHO they must go there - else I'm reminded of the government for the people without the people adage.

I would tend to agree - it isn't necessary to read each individual message to get an idea as to what is troubling users. For years, in addition to doing a full-time day job, I replied to 600+ messages a week on CompuServe (this almost 20 years ago, mind). These days, I tend to skim and look for subjects that are either interesting to me, look to be a quick answer, or to threads where it looks like there may be some problems that need to be sorted out (after all, I'm part of the staff that keeps the forums a friendly place where new users aren't intimidated by those of us who've been around Linux for a while ;) ) For those like Greg who have jumped in, it seems that picking one or two forums to just keep an eye on is a good strategy - and while we certainly would encourage active participation, there's nothing wrong with just lurking and seeing what goes on - and if there's information to be passed along where you see things maybe aren't being handled the way you think, either feel free to jump in in those instances with some friendly advice, or send a private message (PM) to someone on staff asking for help in clarifying something from a project perspective or in your area of expertise. That way we all can learn. There's nothing like learning from those who create. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-15 09:08, Per Jessen wrote:

It seems quite reasonable to suggest to a forum-user that 'you better ask that question' over on 'list77' (which has the right people listening).

No, they will not do it. We do suggest the idea, but it appears they don't know what it is. And if they do, they consider it archaic and full of spam - - which is true, your email is bombarded as a result. I have a dedicated email for lists for that reason. Many don't know how to quote or how to make proper questions, information has to be extracted. Here they would be bashed by the list police on sight and would run for their life ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2oNmwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VjhQCdF/7yDCgJIWWesDP3rwGtqPoi jTcAn2PLuI0Fq9weihrp6XzsXeOb+V0B =8fTR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 14:13 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

No, they will not do it. We do suggest the idea, but it appears they don't know what it is. And if they do, they consider it archaic and full of spam - - which is true, your email is bombarded as a result. I have a dedicated email for lists for that reason. Hi I use gmane added as an usenet server. If projects you want to subscribe to aren't there, they are pretty good at adding, just have a form you fill out.

-- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.29-0.3-default up 8 days 21:47, 2 users, load average: 0.11, 0.18, 0.22 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 270.41.03 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday, April 15, 2011 09:27:09 AM Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

Use a real e-mail server [1] / provider [2] and client; the amount of SPAM I receive is trivial.

It is OK to have good anti spam solution, like you. People use forums because they are afraid to expose their email address and you voice with solution that they can't set up (because they don't know how to) will not convince them. I know that I didn't want to use real email when I started to use Usenet. Why, because there was many places telling not to use it, and not a single word that is not that dangerous. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:08:53 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Perhaps suggest they take such questions to where they will be heard? There are lots of occasions where an opensuse list is not the right place to pursue a particular topic, and people take it directly to the <project>-list. It seems quite reasonable to suggest to a forum-user that 'you better ask that question' over on 'list77' (which has the right people listening).

Users don't want to have to figure out whether to use a forum, a mailing list, IRC, or some other venue to ask questions. The openSUSE Forums are an official way for them to ask for assistance, and that's where many users do in fact go.

While we do occasionally see people redirected to other venues to get faster help (IRC is a fairly common suggestion, for example, for those who have an immediate 'I need to fix this NOW' kind of problems), sending users from one official venue to another is both inefficient for the user and serves to highlight how fragmented the openSUSE community really is.

I think it's entirely appropriate to redirect someone when better help is available elsewhere. That it happens to be to another openSUSE forum or list, that's life, we chose it that way. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2011-04-15 16:31, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

I think it's entirely appropriate to redirect someone when better help is available elsewhere.  That it happens to be to another openSUSE forum or list, that's life, we chose it that way.

Most people choose forums, that's a fact. If newcommers do not find the help they need to make openSUSE work, they will go to another distro, not to a mail list.

No matter what you say about the goodness of maillists will convince them. That's how things are now. Perhaps in 4 years time the preferred method will be something else yet to be invented, but now and here it is forums.

Remember it is an official method.

All, I occasionally use forums. They work well for the one off question about something you don't want to "dive" into. For instance I had to work on my fridge a year or so ago. I went to a forum. Asked one question, had an answer the next day and went on with my life. It's much more of a hassle to of: subscribed to a appliance repair mailing list, posted my question, received dozens or hundreds of emails I didn't care about, deleted all those emails I didn't want in the first place received my answer, stay subscribed in case it turns into a thread unsubscribed I for one would call those dozens of emails spam. So for me as a user, I use forums for things I really don't want to track. I use email lists for things nearer and dearer to me. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

All,

I occasionally use forums. They work well for the one off question about something you don't want to "dive" into.

For instance I had to work on my fridge a year or so ago. I went to a forum. Asked one question, had an answer the next day and went on with my life.

It's much more of a hassle to of: subscribed to a appliance repair mailing list, posted my question, received dozens or hundreds of emails I didn't care about, deleted all those emails I didn't want in the first place received my answer, stay subscribed in case it turns into a thread unsubscribed

I for one would call those dozens of emails spam.

So for me as a user, I use forums for things I really don't want to track. I use email lists for things nearer and dearer to me. Also I´m not a developer nor a packager, I think the only reason why

Am 15.04.2011 17:38, schrieb Greg Freemyer: these people are "hating" forums so much, is the easy point that their are too much "newbies" I mean, if I were a programmer, I would feel ripped when I have to read: [bad typo is planned, no worry] "How the KDE controll center works?" dear comunity! i´m new to opensuse and i installed it today on my harddisk. now i´ve got the kde controll center and don´t know how to handle with it. how can i change my wallpaper thank you by the way: opensuse is the best distro alive! [/end] Do you understand? You need a little bit of technical understanding to subscribe to a mailinglist,and so their more people who have a clue about what they doing. By the way, I really hate the API of the most forums and working via e-mail is much better if you ask me :) And, quite frankly, I don´t know why, but my account seems to be "locked" or "inactive" because I can´t answer to a thread even if I wanted to reply :/ thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 04/16/2011 03:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2011-04-15 19:17, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

By the way, I really hate the API of the most forums and working via e-mail is much better if you ask me

Which is why I participate via nntp interface, which is even better than email.

And precisely because the forums have a lot of newbies is why it is needed to collaborate and help. It is where new users come, and they need help to stay with Linux and openSUSE.

Life is very peaceful "up here" in the mail lists. You have to "go down" to the fora and get your hands wet. The struggle for survival is there.

It is there where packagers or devs can see how many people cope with their creations.

First, thanks for Jim, Malcom, Carlos and others for their efforts with the forums. It is a large audience and for many the first point of contact with the community. That means its important that they feel welcome and supported. Most importantly, feeling welcome turns users into contributors ;) I can add from my perspective with Scribus that helping the newbies sometimes can be a bit frustrating and time consuming. That said, all the Scribus developers have made a point in welcoming people of all skill levels. Partly, because we want to grow the community, partly because we understand the subject matter; page layout can be quite complex, similarly to learning a completely new OS, in this case. I did skim the forums via nntp and it was not difficult for me to pick out topics where I could give usable replies. I also understand where developers can be hesitant about forums. I had long been resisting forums for Scribus. However, a small team from the community stepped up and made it happen. So from my perspective, we as packagers/developers/board members do need at times to engage, even if it is not our preferred means. Certainly, the forums admins and moderators should never hesitate to contact developers, packagers or the board when important topics need clarification or feedback. Cheers, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday, April 16, 2011 05:15:43 PM Kim Leyendecker wrote:

So, why not creating a part which named "Meet for Developers" where threads are, which needs love and help from a developer or packager?

Good idea Kim. "Meet a developer:<topic>" could be stand alone thread in forums that can be series of user questions to some of developers and their answers. That way developers don't have to hunt threads, and users get high quality answers in one place. Thread started should warn otherwise verbose commenters that questions have to be concise. Such thread can be source for wiki articles that will be digest of advices about graphics, audio, some applications etc. It could be also good question for developers in "People of openSUSE". Add a question or two about the current release (11.4), and plans for next (12.1). -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, April 17, 2011 01:21:25 AM Kim Leyendecker wrote: ...

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:People_of_openSUSE/New_questions

Just to correct link: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:People_of_openSUSE_questions We had problems with topics that used subpages - titles that have slash in them - and I would like not to see them again widely used for any topic. In this case I identified page as part of People_of_openSUSE, but if necessary it can be moved to some more generic title if there is a need, which is not the case with subpages. Moving will create 2 links at the top, where one will be link back to the parent page, and the other redirect. Both are automatically created and not easy to disable without other consequences. The Navbar template, and all navigational templates using it, were created to replace need for such automatic and messy linking with one that is controlled by wiki editors. It is fast slap-it-on a current News_navbar, but it should work: http://en.opensuse.org/Template:News_navbar If there is a need for doubled navigational bar main News_navbar can be included in People_of_openSUSE_navbar , to keep all news topics together, while providing local navigation within the People_of_openSUSE topic. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-17 00:07, Peter Linnell wrote:

On 04/16/2011 03:36 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

First, thanks for Jim, Malcom, Carlos and others for their efforts with the forums. It is a large audience and for many the first point of contact with the community. That means its important that they feel welcome and supported. Most importantly, feeling welcome turns users into contributors ;)

Thank you, that’s the idea.

I can add from my perspective with Scribus that helping the newbies sometimes can be a bit frustrating and time consuming.

Yes, indeed, it happens. Often I "bark" a brief reply that is more than enough , I think, but then the OP can't follow and needs further clarification, step by step, almost hand holding. I confess that I don't have always that patience. But it is a community, and others usually step in and fill up that gap.

I did skim the forums via nntp and it was not difficult for me to pick out topics where I could give usable replies.

That's very good. The "helpers" try to help people, but it happens sometimes that they reach points where they can not go further, and a expert in the field is needed. Or, regardless our good intentions, we give the wrong advice. That reminds me: a field where real experts are needed much is GRUB. There are many people having problem booting up, is a continuous subject. We cope, but there are some hard cases, one currently trying to boot from an external disk and failing.

I also understand where developers can be hesitant about forums. I had long been resisting forums for Scribus. However, a small team from the community stepped up and made it happen.

So from my perspective, we as packagers/developers/board members do need at times to engage, even if it is not our preferred means.

That was my idea :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2q6BYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VL5ACfYMdTbddvdNpvq0k0RbDhzMTF 3PIAn1Pfa2ydf0mRcRkfHOvTjc2Aw7qj =94kN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

I occasionally use forums.  They work well for the one off question about something you don't want to "dive" into.

For instance I had to work on my fridge a year or so ago.  I went to a forum.  Asked one question, had an answer the next day and went on with my life.

What would you have done if the answer had been "sorry, you'll have to call the service line for that"?

Likely called, but if the answer was join a mailing list, I would have likely looked for another source of info. (The forum was a generic appliance forum, not manufacturer sponsored.) Joining a mailing list for a few days is nothing but a pain. I know its not that hard, but it takes a bunch of small user interactions to go through all the steps of subscribe, filter, post, respond to thread, unsubscribe, kill no longer needed filter. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Most people choose forums, that's a fact. If newcommers do not find the help they need to make openSUSE work, they will go to another distro, not to a mail list.

No matter what you say about the goodness of maillists will convince them. That's how things are now. Perhaps in 4 years time the preferred method will be something else yet to be invented, but now and here it is forums.

I understand that's the world we live in, but large omnibus forums are a *terrible* way to interact with users, from a developer standpoint - I simply don't have enough time in the day to monitor a dozen+ sub-forums for threads that are asking questions that I can answer. Is it possible to somehow automatically flag keywords in new topic submissions in the forum? That would be very helpful. -- Matt Barringer, Software Engineer SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) http://susestudio.com http://www.novell.com/linux

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-15 17:39, Matt Barringer wrote:

I understand that's the world we live in, but large omnibus forums are a *terrible* way to interact with users, from a developer standpoint - I simply don't have enough time in the day to monitor a dozen+ sub-forums for threads that are asking questions that I can answer. Is it possible to somehow automatically flag keywords in new topic submissions in the forum? That would be very helpful.

One thing that this openSUSE forum has and others have not, is an NNTP gateway. You can read and write in our forums using a traditional news reader like pan, knode, thunderbird, even alpine, as plain text, with all the tools developed since internet and usenet was invented. There are a few gotchas with using the gateway, but the end result is very good. I would not participate there at all if it wasn't for the gateway. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2o9EkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VyhQCeJFAneDPkw2y2jghJMJ3ysJrA AAEAoJONuPSzrvPfEN5Xr+zXv5z5NCGd =bS3c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:31:51 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

I think it's entirely appropriate to redirect someone when better help is available elsewhere. That it happens to be to another openSUSE forum or list, that's life, we chose it that way.

You choose to use e-mail lists, Per, and that's fine - others in overwhelming numbers use the forums: We currently have 56769 registered users there. Now it is true that not all of those users are active users, we do see what looks to be an average of 400 messages a day that are posted. 2100 messages a week, and about 10,000 messages a month. Comparatively, the opensuse-users list looks to average about 65 messages a day (based on the stats available at gmane.org, which covers a period from February 2006 through today). Most of the traffic in the forums, if it were in the MLs, would be on that list (a small number would be project related, and there'd be some for factory as well - but the majority are users with installation or usage problems with the standard installation). At some point, *we* have to go where the *users* are and use what the users find most convenient to them. Otherwise, as Carlos said, they'll go somewhere else. Ubuntu, perhaps. Fedora, perhaps. Doesn't really matter - it'll be *not* openSUSE. Why? Because users like forums, and Ubuntu and Fedora both provide forums. You can't often push users to use what you want them to use, they'll gravitate towards what *they* want to use, and if you make it inconvenient to them (and that's a question of personal preference), the users will jump ship. So I for one (as one of the administrators of the openSUSE Forums) really appreciate people like Greg K-H and the members of the board who take the time to come to where the users are to interact with them. Look at it this way, Per: You're resisting going to the forums because it isn't what you're used to, doesn't work well for your way of working. (which is fine by me, BTW), and look at how you're reacting. Now recognise (please) that that's exactly what you're saying to 56,000 other people - and the vast majority of those people are people who took the time to look at something you had a part in creating. Do you really think it's in the project's best interests to alienate them by telling them that if they have problems, they need to not use a forum (like they could with every other major distro on the planet) but rather come to a mailing list, which they perceive (right or wrong) as an archaic way of getting help? Heck, we get pushback from some people about the fact that our forum has an NNTP interface for people who 'have failed to keep up with the times' (to paraphrase one person who has continued to come back and occasionally chastise us for providing two methods of access) because OSF is unique in the market for doing so - Ubuntu, Fedora - they don't provide that interface to the forums, and those used to web forums regularly complain about not being able to edit their messages more than 10 minutes after they post and other things that they take for granted in web-based forums. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:04:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:31:51 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I think it's entirely appropriate to redirect someone when better help is available elsewhere. That it happens to be to another openSUSE forum or list, that's life, we chose it that way.

You choose to use e-mail lists, Per, and that's fine - others in overwhelming numbers use the forums: We currently have 56769 registered users there.

This isn't about the medium, Jim - it's about where the best help can be found. When someone advises me that I'd get a better answer elsewhere, it's my problem if I choose to ignore that advice.

But it *is* about the medium, Per. If the users aren't comfortable with or don't like the medium where help is provided, they'll avoid it like the plague. You might give the best possible help on all aspects of openSUSE, but if you make the users jump through hoops that *they* feel are unnecessary, they simply *will not do it*. Why do you think we've got 56,000+ registered users on the forums and there are, what, a few hundred users on the opensuse-users mailing list? I can tell you that it isn't because the majority of users think mailing lists are more convenient than the forums. It's that the users (a) feel they get good enough help on most things in the forums, and (b) that they use the medium *they prefer*. If you don't want to participate there, that's fine - I've absolutely no problem with that, as we've discussed in the past. But when one starts taking the attitude that "we know better than the users what they want" when it comes to social interaction, the users will say "um, no, we actually do know what we prefer, and if you won't provide it, we'll find someone who will" is actually the way users react. I've been involved in online forums of one kind or another for close to 30 years and have literally talked to tens of thousands of people from all walks of life; this isn't conjecture or theory on my part, it's based on decades of experience working online with customers and users. Which incidentally is why I'll tell you that user preference is going to be the primary driver, but I'm not going to tell you that you MUST use the forums - you're free to use what you want, of course, just as the users will. And what I see looking at the stats here and in the forums is that the users have declared their preference. We can choose to accept that choice or we can push them away from openSUSE by telling them that they MUST use a mailing list if they want any help at all. Or we use the current setup, which is two levels of interaction - 'the masses' who use the forums use them to get basic help, and the MLs are used for more advanced users who need a deeper level of help from people writing code. One of the issues I see with this, though (and I've seen the same thing before) is that when developers work in a bubble with little to no awareness of what is going on with the users, developers will tend to develop things that users don't need or don't want. I've seen that happen more times than I can count from Novell's engineering department specifically (mostly pre-SUSE).

...

At some point, *we* have to go where the *users* are and use what the users find most convenient to them.

I beg to differ. If you want help, go to where help can be found.

Do you want to grow the openSUSE user community or shrink it? If you want to shrink it, that's the way to do it. If you want to grow it, you make it convenient from the user's point of view. The harder or more inconvenient it is (or is perceived to be), the fewer users you end up with. Remember that this isn't the cathedral, Per. It's the bazaar. ;) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:28:59 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Then they clearly *don't* want help.

If I want help, but I flatly refuse to use the communication means by which help is available, I don't really need it.

They do, but they want *convenient* help. If there's a lower barrier to entry to get help somewhere else, then that's where they'll go. So, hypothetically, say we shut down the openSUSE forums and force everyone to use the mailing lists. (Not that that's even on the table or up for discussion) If the users come to the mailing lists, you'll have hundreds of messages like those that Kim recently suggested - people who want general information or just to chat about how great openSUSE is. More likely, though, they'll say "gee, openSUSE uses this archaic method of communicating to get help - mailing lists. Fedora/Ubuntu use forums, which is what I'm comfortable with, and they welcome me to use what I'm happy to use. Let's see, which distro do I use?" Given the choice, users have voted with their feet. They prefer forums. To deny that when there are other options is to push users away from openSUSE. I don't think we want to do that. Now, if you choose to continue to provide support via mailing lists, that's great. You're not the only source for support, and users will gravitate towards the option that (a) provides them what they're looking for, and (b) does so in a way they are comfortable with. People favor convenience. For most users - those who have a couple of questions and then move on to something else - mailing lists simply are not convenient. In a business setting (and yes, I realize that for most this isn't a business), satisfying the user's needs drives revenue. Not satisfying the user's needs - or trying to do so in a way that the user clearly has indicated they do not prefer - does not drive revenue. In our model, one of the goals (unless someone is willing to stand up and say that we want *fewer* users) is to increase adoption. To achieve that, we have to make it easy for people to get the help they want in the way they want. If we don't provide, they'll leave because there are plenty of others who *do*. We don't have a monopoly here. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:14:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:28:59 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Then they clearly *don't* want help.

If I want help, but I flatly refuse to use the communication means by which help is available, I don't really need it.

They do, but they want *convenient* help.

IMO, that is incredibly arrogant. I would like help to be provided in my native language, but when that's not available, I accept that I have to use a foreign language to get help. I don't see why the forum users cannot work like that too.

Well, good luck with that. :) Ironically, we often have posts in the forums from a subset of users who think that many of the developers are arrogant for not participating in the venue where most of the users participate. (And when I see those, I tend to point out that developers' focus is on development rather than support, and that I personally don't have a problem with developers not providing support if they want to focus on development tasks - and they shouldn't either). BTW many of the users on OSF do actually get help in their native languages - one of the things we do if someone's willing to help set it up and manage it in a foreign language is to create forums for those groups who want them. We currently offer in Hungarian, Japanese, Russian, French, English, German, Dutch, Greek, and Portuguese. We also have links to a few other independent forums where there's a language presence established (such as linuxclub.de for additional support for those who prefer German).

...

If there's a lower barrier to entry to get help somewhere else, then that's where they'll go.

Of course, that's how it should be. However, we are (well I am) specifically talking about the situation where there is no lower barrier.

I think 50,000 forum users would disagree about the barrier to entry for getting help in the forums being lower than the mailing lists. ;) But I'm also talking about the world we live in, not some hypothetical situation where there isn't a lower barrier. Remove our forums from the equation, and I'm sure plenty of the users will decide that since Ubuntu or Fedora cater to what they want in terms of a community, they'll leave us for them. Differentiating ourselves by being more difficult to work with than other distros doesn't help grow the community. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:30:22 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

IMO, that is incredibly arrogant. I would like help to be provided in my native language, but when that's not available, I accept that I have to use a foreign language to get help. I don't see why the forum users cannot work like that too.

[snip]

...

BTW many of the users on OSF do actually get help in their native languages - one of the things we do if someone's willing to help set it up and manage it in a foreign language is to create forums for those groups who want them. We currently offer in Hungarian, Japanese, Russian, French, English, German, Dutch, Greek, and Portuguese.

I prefer Danish, can you please arrange for some helpers and a set of suitable openSUSE fora?

We are happy to set up Danish forums if you're willing to help us find people to staff them. That's how the process works: Someone helps coordinate and recruit people to staff the forum who speak the language natively, and we set them up. That's how we've done this for each of the groups of language-specific forums (excepting English). Nelson did this for the Portuguese forums that we've recently opened. The resources come from within the community that has such a desire - not from a request from someone who isn't willing to help out. So if you're willing to help out (or if you know someone who is), absolutely we can make that happen.

...

...

...

If there's a lower barrier to entry to get help somewhere else, then that's where they'll go.

Of course, that's how it should be. However, we are (well I am) specifically talking about the situation where there is no lower barrier.

I think 50,000 forum users would disagree about the barrier to entry for getting help in the forums being lower than the mailing lists. ;)

Yeah well, you're off on the wrong tangent again.

Well, I disagree - you seem to want to discount the opinion of those 50,000 users, though, which is why I think you think that it's tangential. The users *are* important, and their preferences are important. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:49:48 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

...

...

...

...

If there's a lower barrier to entry to get help somewhere else, then that's where they'll go.

Of course, that's how it should be. However, we are (well I am) specifically talking about the situation where there is no lower barrier.

I think 50,000 forum users would disagree about the barrier to entry for getting help in the forums being lower than the mailing lists. ;)

Yeah well, you're off on the wrong tangent again.

Well, I disagree - you seem to want to discount the opinion of those 50,000 users, though, which is why I think you think that it's tangential. The users *are* important, and their preferences are important.

IMHO, users who refuse to listen to sound advice are *not* important. Those are the ones we are discussing, not the thousands of other who are happy with the help they receive.

<shrug> OK, that's fair, but just understand that your opinion isn't necessarily the only one and not even necessarily the only valid one. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2011-04-17 at 16:01 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

...

Well, I disagree - you seem to want to discount the opinion of

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011, Per Jessen wrote: those

...

...

50,000 users, though, which is why I think you think that it's tangential. The users *are* important, and their preferences are important. IMHO, users who refuse to listen to sound advice are *not* important. Those are the ones we are discussing, not the thousands of other who are happy with the help they receive.

I don't think this is a productive conversation at this point. You have your perspective, and Jim has his based on decades of experience and tens of thousands of forum users.

In the end, what matters in an Open Source project is what volunteers (or companies) offer in terms of contributions. We clearly have a nice number of volunteers who support the forums, and asking for support of the forums on this list is perfectly valid, too.

Beyond that, just agree to disagree on this one?

Gerald

+1 to Gerald's statement. Over the years, I've come to know and expect Jim's postings on various threads to be one of the sanest and most centered in terms of bringing facts together in a cohesive way that helps us to better understand the situation at hand. Thanks for all your help and contributions over the years, Jim! Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 15 April 2011 20:14:34 Per Jessen wrote:

IMO, that is incredibly arrogant. I would like help to be provided in my native language, but when that's not available, I accept that I have to use a foreign language to get help. I don't see why the forum users cannot work like that too.

Per, believe me, you don't want these 50.000 forum people hang around in the beautiful garden of your project ivory tower. IMHO the project is conveniently disconnected from its user base, and this is not good. Uwe (openSUSE forums mod) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 02:02:10PM +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

Not only that, but I'm sure that those who use the mailing lists really wouldn't want the 50,000+ people who are subscribed to the forums to start posting all of their questions to the mailing lists. These mailing lists would then become pretty much completely unusable. Mailing lists tend to be suitable for relatively small groups, but if you were suddenly receiving several thousand e-mails a day, I'm sure you would be quite unhappy about it.

Not true at all, I get several thousand emails a day, and they are handled just fine. That's what email clients do, and have done, for years, in a very managable manner. So don't think this is unreasonable, it isn't. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.04.2011 19:11, schrieb Greg KH:

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 02:02:10PM +0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

...

Not only that, but I'm sure that those who use the mailing lists really wouldn't want the 50,000+ people who are subscribed to the forums to start posting all of their questions to the mailing lists. These mailing lists would then become pretty much completely unusable. Mailing lists tend to be suitable for relatively small groups, but if you were suddenly receiving several thousand e-mails a day, I'm sure you would be quite unhappy about it. Not true at all, I get several thousand emails a day, and they are handled just fine. That's what email clients do, and have done, for years, in a very managable manner.

I get 70-189 mails a day, and I handle it after the motto: "What I can´t read today, I will read tomorrow" So, I think it isn´t impossible at all and if you have to make the decission between a forum and a mailinglist, I would choose the mailinglist because it´s so easier then a forum. You know, that you for a mailinglist only need an e-mailadress and additonal a mail-client. I was longtime active in a forum and it was my daily routine to look what´s on their. But a mailinglist ist imho better, because I can combinate my daily routine. Reading mails and the mailinglist (where the most mails came from) and so, I have more time for my work on openSUSE, what normaly means reading and writing on some mailinglists. So, the mailinglists are my second home so to speak, and this is what I love about a mailinglist. You get all in one client. On a forum is it more fragmented. You have to go to the KDE-forum when you post something about KDE. Then, click-click, I go to the SUSE-studio-forum because I need some help there. You maybe think this is easy, but if I add the whole clicks, it´s real additional work. The completly different thing on my mailreader. I get here every list I subschribed to. So I get some mail from opensuse-marketing, some from opensuse-project, some from opensuse-factory and of course some from opensuse-ambassador and maybe sometimes a few from opensuse-wiki-de. I have it all into my mailreader. In my little world here. So I don´t have to leave any forums and can just stay on my "living-room" here and write my mails. Then I open or switch to firefox and surf on facebook, and be on some openSUSE tools (e.g OBS, openFATE and SUSE Studio). "Oh, a new mail...." and the whole thing restarts....

So don't think this is unreasonable, it isn't.

thanks,

greg k-h

So, mailinglists just kicking ass. Forums have their advantages for some beginners, but for a developer it is easier to handle it all over e-mail. And I´ve got a good excuse, when my friends see my mailbox and I just need to say, "Sorry, I can´t help you with xyz... I have to read and reply this mails first". (Well, a totaly no-go for some female friends.... oh I´m a hopeless longtime-single ;) ) Nevertheless, mailinglists should be the prefered communication platform, if you ask me.... thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 22:46:03 +0200, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

To add some more thoughs of myself:

* The whole discussion remembers me to a discussion what´s belongs to a good operating system: - The "normal" users will say: "A browser, An office suite and some multimedia tools" - The nerd/geek/developer/Kim will say: " A compiler, make, internet access, a shell and a kernel"

So, you see, it all depends on the knowledge of the user. It´s the same thing with mailinglists and forums. For the normal user a forum is easier, because he needs to click a few buttons and write text. For us, it´s easy too: Just write text, click to send, read the answer, click to reply list. finish

IMHO, the forums I know are so confusing and haven´t a clear GUI, so I try to do the most via mailinglists.

That is a perfect analogy. Mailing lists work quite well for people who have a long-term sustained interest in more than just getting one or two questions answered. That's why they work so well for developers and people who are actually involved in project-related decisions. Nobody's saying "developers should stop using mailing lists for their needs". It's about understanding that user needs are inherently different, and a different tool makes more sense for users than for developers. (Though I would note that I access both the mailing lists and the forums using the exact same tool - Pan - because the MLs are gated to NNTP via gmane.org - and the forums are also gated to NNTP through our own gateway). What those of us on the forums side of the discussion are saying is that it might be good if developers occasionally dropped by (or looked to a focused group, like Larry Finger does with the wireless forum or Greg K-H is doing with the Tumbleweed forum) to just see what's going on with the users. We don't have any kind of formal (or even informal) escalation path in place to take common issues in the forums and report them upstream to developers. (Well, we have bugzilla, but honestly, there's a world of difference to me between a software defect and usability questions that are commonly happening - not everything that could be reported upstream is necessarily a bug). Some developers I know outside of the openSUSE project cruise relevant forums because they want to know first-hand what the users think. That's not everybody's cup of tea. I understand that. But that won't stop me from promoting the forums as someplace where developers might pick up useful bits of information about how users are using the software they've created. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 22:33 +0200, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

I get 70-189 mails a day, and I handle it after the motto: "What I can´t read today, I will read tomorrow" So, I think it isn´t impossible at all and if you have to make the decission between a forum and a mailinglist, I would choose the mailinglist because it´s so easier then a forum. You know, that you for a mailinglist only need an e-mailadress and additonal a mail-client.

Hi But that's the thing, you keep using the mail reader...assuming it supports usenet and add the forums you want.... I use evolution at the moment, but also use claws-mail.... Currently I monitor over 100 between openSUSE, Novell, Gmane and usenet. The only real time I need to be on the forums are for admin tasks....but I do use the forum as well. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.29-0.3-default up 9 days 4:37, 2 users, load average: 0.17, 0.09, 0.08 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 270.41.03 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-15 23:00, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

And, my openSUSE forums account doesn´t work so, I surrender and just keep up writing e-mails :)

You don't need one to participate. I don't use it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2o98UACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UqugCeNoYWCs7q9caEJs/uQz+x5R0D 9/QAn1CQcpGj+fGNryFn7rETOR3pKc/Y =L1QY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 16/04/2011 10:37, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

Am 16.04.2011 03:58, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2011-04-15 23:00, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

...

And, my openSUSE forums account doesn´t work so, I surrender and just keep up writing e-mails:) You don't need one to participate. I don't use it. What? I don´t need an account to post in the forums? That´s new to me....?

confused

use nntp (newsgroups) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 16/04/11 09:46, jdd wrote:

use nntp (newsgroups)

getting a bit OT - but can anyone advise how to set up TB to access forums.opensuse.org via NNTP? Trying to add this as a URL using "manage subscriptions" just gives me "forums.opensuse.org is not a valid feed", much the same if I prefix it with nntp:// -- Thanks Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-17 03:54, Rajko M. wrote:

Congratulations! Verify information and next will create account. Dismiss "Account Settings" and go to Thunderbird and add newsgroups in "Manage newsgroups subscriptions".

Or right click on the account on the left panel, pick "subscribe". The list includes "novell" and "opensuse.org - choose the later (the other has the SLES groups) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2q5MIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wi4ACcC7WPQWDSLTXi5OTs3BXcx4n5 7uQAniE9BqjcL/ZoqUMIV81XPqzfzMfF =K55w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 17/04/11 02:54, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday, April 16, 2011 04:56:02 PM Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

On 16/04/11 09:46, jdd wrote:

...

use nntp (newsgroups)

getting a bit OT - but can anyone advise how to set up TB to access forums.opensuse.org via NNTP? Trying to add this as a URL using "manage subscriptions" just gives me "forums.opensuse.org is not a valid feed", much the same if I prefix it with nntp://

Account Settings At the bottom of the list of current accounts, you will find drop down list "Account Actions", use Add Other Account. It opens Account Wizard where you choose Newsgroup account.

Fill in Your Name and Email Address. If you already have forums login use@no-mx.opensuse.org so that forum software doesn't present you as a guest.

<next> Newsgroup Server: forums.opensuse.org <next> Account Name: or use default "forums.opensuse.org" <next> Congratulations! Verify information and next will create account. Dismiss "Account Settings" and go to Thunderbird and add newsgroups in "Manage newsgroups subscriptions".

Many thanks - that worked perfectly (except in that there are huge numbers of posts to look at - I will probably start by marking everything older than today as read)... Strange that it was so well hidden - I though I knew TB well ;-) -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, April 17, 2011 04:36:25 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:

... Then you can mark each thread where you post with "watch (W) - this is a feature you can not use on mail lists.

Which reminds me why I use KNode. I can use filter that will list only my posts, threads with my posts, and switching is quite easy. Similar functionality exists in KMail too, where one can set filter to action that will mark posts in certain way and in message list you can select that way to see emails. As I don't use Thunderbird that much, I can't say how much filtering is improved in recent versions, but when I switched to KMail the reason was ability to create quite sophisticated filters that will handle hundreds of emails a day without any user interaction. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-16 10:37, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 16.04.2011 03:58, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

You don't need one to participate. I don't use it. What? I don´t need an account to post in the forums? That´s new to me....?

No, because I post via NNTP. You can use the same name/login via nntp as via web, which is better. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2pgwkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UGwACfXoklhcVFagZv3HFsz3qhiSeg +pAAn2PHM+VlW2KJsb5AC89aWn5KEhMk =u3aB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-16 19:52, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:52:41 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

You can use the same name/login via nntp as via web, which is better.

NNTP requires no login, and you shouldn't use one.

I know, but if you use the same login name in the address, your posts are counted in the forum. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2qCrgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UHtgCgjWhSB0bmCa89rhUToiH9hIkd txsAoI8MGLHxuZU+AOx9ROqhn9EkI6G5 =TfCm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-17 00:00, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 16.04.2011 23:31, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

What do you mean with "counted"? That there is a statistic which says: "Kim posted 341 posts since 2011"

Indeed there is.

or that on every post stands "Kim Leyendecker said:"?

In the web side, yes, and if it doesn't recognize you it says you are a guest. That's one of the things a forum has, posters can be evaluated by the rest of the people and it is displayed to them. I don't use those niceties, but I know they exist and that they "evaluate" me. It is a curious thing: it is a forum to most of the posters, but it is a text-only news (nntp) gate to some others. There are a few idiosyncrasies we have to know, like how to post a code excerpt or a link.

If the first one, I don´t need, if the second one: I hope my signature is sended with so it doesn´t matter really.

Few people reply to you by the signature name, they use the handle instead because it is shown prominently to them.

PS: Will try to be more active into the forums and maybe help some people, but I prefer mailinglists and using e-mail because I´m used to handle it so ;)

Me too, but I assure you it is a rewarding experience :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2q6+YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UX7ACeM6ey/ijr9oJQpEsLGx6Md0md bL8An0823BIPa862nUBtpbceHkIFotDu =fJ18 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, April 18, 2011 10:44:12 AM Jim Henderson wrote:

There is also a way listed in the Forums FAQ

If you can point to exact section. I couldn't find that in current FAQ. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, April 19, 2011 12:25:35 AM Uwe Buckesfeld wrote: ...

http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php

Especially this part: http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp

Q:Is my NNTP user ID recognized in the web interface? A: If your email address in your newsreader matches the email address you set up in vBulletin you will be recognized on both sides as the same user. If you prefer not to have your real email address in your newsreader, you can use the following syntax for an email address in your newsreader: userid@no-mx.forums.opensuse.org and your user will still be recognized.

Uwe

Thanks Uwe, it seems that my eyes play tricks with me. I know it exists, but I couldn't locate proper section. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:06:08PM -0500, Malcolm wrote:

On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 09:43 -0700, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:56:49AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Hi,

The fact is, there are more people in the openSUSE Forums than there are here in the mail lists. Specially new users.

And the sad fact is, that many devs, packagers, maintainers, shun the forums as a place of devils or who knows what - and by doing so, they are missing a huge user and test base.

For example, Tumbleweed.

Many people are activating Tumbleweed, coming to grief, and subsequently crying for help in the forums - not here.

I just read the whole Tumbleweed sub-forum, I don't see a lot of "crying for help" there. Is it happening in some other location that I should be paying attention to?

thanks,

greg k-h Hi Thanks for popping in to the forum, it's much appreciated :)

There are a few elsewhere (we were a bit slow with a tumbleweed sub forum).

Have a look here using tumbleweed as the search string; http://search.opensuse.org/forums/

I did that, and responded to pretty much the only semi-coherent Tumbleweed statement/thread that I could find that was recent :) I'll keep an eye out for others as well, and if you notice something that I missed, please point it out to me and I will be glad to reply to it. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-14 18:43, Greg KH wrote:

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:56:49AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I just read the whole Tumbleweed sub-forum, I don't see a lot of "crying for help" there. Is it happening in some other location that I should be paying attention to?

Most popped up in the applications or the install-boot-login forums. Many users just thought that Tumbleweed was another more repo, like packman. I had to tell many of them that T. was experimental, that it is in fact another version of the distro, like factory, and that they were to pop their questions in the factory mail list. I aimed to defuse their enthusiasm. There is one that wants to use Tumbleweeb and gnome 3 at the same time. The tumbleweed forum is new, and the tide has steadied. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2nbSkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V9zgCfRtwbYEjqkF9I4ttmkQ6Dy7dM v9UAniRa9oin7cQ4jkUUY9V/d3zcrQqn =qzJu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-04-15 00:21, Greg KH wrote:

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:54:49PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Tumbleweed is not "experimental", it's just has the potential to be a bit more unstable than the normal 11.4 repo, but much more stable than FACTORY is.

But probably not recommended for newbies.

...

There is one that wants to use Tumbleweeb and gnome 3 at the same time.

That's insane, and should not be done yet at all.

Indeed, we told him.

...

The tumbleweed forum is new, and the tide has steadied.

That's good, thanks for your help.

Thanks to you to for caring :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2ndooACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WVawCeIC3+MU/iATh4oKiYIhmZQzo+ Yc8An1/mma8gfO5iByjhgI7cQ/FRB8UU =L2Vi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org