[opensuse-project] RFC: How to improve openSUSE websites
Hi there, being relatively new to the openSUSE community over the past few weeks I've been digging through websites and wiki. Quite often I stepped into traps of unclear, misleading or just plain old content. This lead me to the conclusion that there's urgent need of restructuring lots of things. The following is a rough braindump strongly intended as RFC. I try to visualize my thoughts as good as possible with screenshots. # First sight The website opensuse.org in overall is looking good and I really like the coloring. But looking closer there is a lot of clutter which needs to be restructured. Important stuff needs to be visible at first glimpse. See the screenshot taken on a regular FullHD monitor [1] and try to tell what's this all about - imagining you don't know what openSUSE is. Why not tell at first sight: - this is a Linux distribution - this is how it looks like - these three things make it outstanding Positive examples as comparison: Fedora [2], Solus [3] # Getting information To get more details I have to scroll quite a lot and/or click very often in comparison to the amount of information I get in the end. The waste of space is too high and it should be reduced. Also these animations are quite annoying. Especially the bouncing circle when clicking on "How to contribute" > "Code" just to show a few sentences afterwards. # Consolidate information ## News News about ongoing development and information about achievements is one the crucial thing to be spead out widely. The "News" section on opensuse.org is just way too small and is just drowned out by the "Tools" and "Contribute" sections. So we should either remove it there completely and give it a separate page (See Solus Blog [4]). Or move it upwards on opensuse.org and make it way more prominent. At least linking to news.opensuse.org is useless and should be stopped (even more from a design perspective). Currently there are way too many places just to get news. Let me summarize it and - please correct me if I got something wrong: 1. opensuse.org It grabs first 2-3 sentences of a post and links to it on news.o.o. 2. news.opensuse.org This filled by Doug and (just guessing) members of news mailing list. 3. lizards.opensuse.org Looks exactly the same as news.o.o but consists of blog posts by devs and dev teams. The difference to news.o.o is stated nowhere, the reasons for this separation not made clear either. 4. planet.opensuse.org This looks only slightly similar to news.o.o and lizards.o.o, even the content is different. But: why is dimstar's blog (the TW reviews) and the Open Build Service blog listed there? Following the logic above it should at least be in lizards.o.o if not even in news.o.o! ## Website vs. Wiki Looking at the content of opensuse.org and wiki.opensuse.org I think there's no clear plan what to put where. My understand of a wiki is a) collaboratively created content and b) content changing regularly. A source for documentation if you will. The "Contribute" section on opensuse.org gives you just a few sentences but links to a wiki page. This is unnecessary as the ways to contribute won't hardly change very often. I assume this is mostly done due to the fact that opensuse.org has hardly any space left for slightly more detailed information. But that's what a website is made for. Sending people from URL to URL without giving them a consistent layout is at best confusing if not frustrating. Partly positive example: Fedora [5] (sat in comparison to opensuse.org) That's all for now. I understand that many things have somehow grown over the years. But as I'm willing to tackle these I am looking forward to your comments/critics. Regards, vinz. [1] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/HzRmZnH7mwMgkEg [2] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/nPammszr3Z4me2B [3] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/G7xwekJPW6S5Dwi [4] https://getsol.us/blog/ [5] https://vinzv.space/nextcloud/s/nXtaXHfqxwTyAbL -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On pon, cze 17, 2019 at 11:08 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi there,
being relatively new to the openSUSE community over the past few weeks I've been digging through websites and wiki. Quite often I stepped into traps of unclear, misleading or just plain old content. This lead me to the conclusion that there's urgent need of restructuring lots of things.
The following is a rough braindump strongly intended as RFC. I try to visualize my thoughts as good as possible with screenshots.
# First sight
The website opensuse.org in overall is looking good and I really like the coloring. But looking closer there is a lot of clutter which needs to be restructured.
Important stuff needs to be visible at first glimpse. See the screenshot taken on a regular FullHD monitor [1] and try to tell what's this all about - imagining you don't know what openSUSE is. Why not tell at first sight: - this is a Linux distribution - this is how it looks like - these three things make it outstanding
Positive examples as comparison: Fedora [2], Solus [3]
I did start doing some work towards getting first mockups of website going, but focus more on the `openSUSE` than distributions, leaving the marketing of distros to software-o-o. I do believe this is the right direction, because if we wanted to sell openSUSE right on the main site, we would not be able to mention anything outside of it in enough detail. Distributions are massive in terms of what we should actually mention about them, so software-o-o could serve the purposes of showcasing the distributions, installation process, go into detail about differences between Leap and Tumbleweed. It would also be nice to have a dns rule for the distribution part of the site instead of software-o-o/distributions, maybe something like get.openSUSE.org, so it's shorter and easier to type by anybody that wants to share the distros (but not the entire project) with other people ;)
# Getting information
To get more details I have to scroll quite a lot and/or click very often in comparison to the amount of information I get in the end. The waste of space is too high and it should be reduced. Also these animations are quite annoying. Especially the bouncing circle when clicking on "How to contribute" > "Code" just to show a few sentences afterwards.
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye candy there, they function very often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not acceptable, I would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages just to get into enough detail about everything too.
# Consolidate information
## News
News about ongoing development and information about achievements is one the crucial thing to be spead out widely. The "News" section on opensuse.org is just way too small and is just drowned out by the "Tools" and "Contribute" sections. So we should either remove it there completely and give it a separate page (See Solus Blog [4]). Or move it upwards on opensuse.org and make it way more prominent. At least linking to news.opensuse.org is useless and should be stopped (even more from a design perspective).
Currently there are way too many places just to get news. Let me summarize it and - please correct me if I got something wrong:
1. opensuse.org It grabs first 2-3 sentences of a post and links to it on news.o.o.
2. news.opensuse.org This filled by Doug and (just guessing) members of news mailing list.
And news-o-o is the only official place for openSUSE news, I am hoping that new news-o-o [1] will be able to replace the wordpress site with something that will be way easier to contribute to through github prs. As for the news widget, I am glad it exists, it's an easy way to learn that the project isn't dead yet ;)
3. lizards.opensuse.org Looks exactly the same as news.o.o but consists of blog posts by devs and dev teams. The difference to news.o.o is stated nowhere, the reasons for this separation not made clear either.
Dead basically, I am still waiting for provo to get the stuff off there, it tends to be a long process (also YaST team needs blog on our infra, which is being worked on).
4. planet.opensuse.org This looks only slightly similar to news.o.o and lizards.o.o, even the content is different. But: why is dimstar's blog (the TW reviews) and the Open Build Service blog listed there? Following the logic above it should at least be in lizards.o.o if not even in news.o.o!
This is a news aggregator, from multiple contributors, it allows anybody to add their own blog to the sources, which is why it will be replacing lizards (it's way easier to have own blog with something like github/gitlab pages too, so it makes more sense, while it requires less maintenance from our side, even though it would be nice to drop python2 there too, contributors wanted!) [2].
## Website vs. Wiki
Looking at the content of opensuse.org and wiki.opensuse.org I think there's no clear plan what to put where. My understand of a wiki is a) collaboratively created content and b) content changing regularly. A source for documentation if you will.
I believe the biggest mistake was separating contents between openSUSE and SDB namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely also looking for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There is no particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
The "Contribute" section on opensuse.org gives you just a few sentences but links to a wiki page. This is unnecessary as the ways to contribute won't hardly change very often. I assume this is mostly done due to the fact that opensuse.org has hardly any space left for slightly more detailed information. But that's what a website is made for. Sending people from URL to URL without giving them a consistent layout is at best confusing if not frustrating.
The contributions side of things is being worked on by Imad Aldoj, with a dedicated website for helping newcomers with contributions.
Partly positive example: Fedora [5] (sat in comparison to opensuse.org)
A better example: https://whatcanidoforfedora.org/en/
That's all for now. I understand that many things have somehow grown over the years. But as I'm willing to tackle these I am looking forward to your comments/critics.
Regards, vinz.
[1] https://opensuse.github.io/news-o-o/ [2] https://github.com/openSUSE/planet.opensuse.org LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi,
# First sight
[…]
I did start doing some work towards getting first mockups of website going, but focus more on the `openSUSE` than distributions, leaving the marketing of distros to software-o-o.
What happened to them?
I do believe this is the right direction, because if we wanted to sell openSUSE right on the main site, we would not be able to mention anything outside of it in enough detail. Distributions are massive in terms of what we should actually mention about them, so software-o-o could serve the purposes of showcasing the distributions, installation process, go into detail about differences between Leap and Tumbleweed. It would also be nice to have a dns rule for the distribution part of the site instead of software-o-o/distributions, maybe something like get.openSUSE.org, so it's shorter and easier to type by anybody that wants to share the distros (but not the entire project) with other people ;)
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all. Going to a car store you don't want to be forced to choose your desired type of car even befor someone says hello to you. You want to get an overview: what do they have, what price ranges areavailable, is the sales man friendly etc. Basic stuff. Going into detail is a second step and needs to be guided.
# Getting information
[…]
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye candy there, they function very often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not acceptable, I would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages just to get into enough detail about everything too.
Yes, I'd favour that as well. A menu is already there so it would be easy and quick to implement.
# Consolidate information
## News
[…]
3. lizards.opensuse.org […] Dead basically, I am still waiting for provo to get the stuff off there, it tends to be a long process (also YaST team needs blog on our infra, which is being worked on).
Any idea what takes them so long? Is there a point we could help? Don't get me wrong: we're all volunteers, but taking a website _offline_ is nothing that should take weeks (?) to get done. And telling YaST team to email their blog posts to Doug instead as well is nothing to be causing severe trouble.
## Website vs. Wiki
[…]
I believe the biggest mistake was separating contents between openSUSE and SDB namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely also looking for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There is no particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation is... strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
The contributions side of things is being worked on by Imad Aldoj, with a dedicated website for helping newcomers with contributions.
Yes, I talked to him as well. Some special site is a great thing for external marketing and helping people to get on board. Looking at https://whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org or as you mentioned the Fedora equivalent is quite what we should get. Yet there needs to be way more information on opensuse.org. We can't just point people to some other website. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On wto, cze 18, 2019 at 1:04 AM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi,
# First sight
[…]
I did start doing some work towards getting first mockups of website going, but focus more on the `openSUSE` than distributions, leaving the marketing of distros to software-o-o.
What happened to them?
What happened was that I couldn't land on something that makes me 100% happy, I should share some more ideas and general layout somewhere sometime. In the end what caused the stop of any additional progress in January was my ambition to make the website too perfect, which cased me enough anxiety that I stopped before really starting to get results that would be good enough for a starting point, sorry :/
I do believe this is the right direction, because if we wanted to sell openSUSE right on the main site, we would not be able to mention anything outside of it in enough detail. Distributions are massive in terms of what we should actually mention about them, so software-o-o could serve the purposes of showcasing the distributions, installation process, go into detail about differences between Leap and Tumbleweed. It would also be nice to have a dns rule for the distribution part of the site instead of software-o-o/distributions, maybe something like get.openSUSE.org, so it's shorter and easier to type by anybody that wants to share the distros (but not the entire project) with other people ;)
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all. Going to a car store you don't want to be forced to choose your desired type of car even befor someone says hello to you. You want to get an overview: what do they have, what price ranges areavailable, is the sales man friendly etc. Basic stuff. Going into detail is a second step and needs to be guided.
Yeah, it's not like I would totally remove distributions from there, but the choice between Tumbleweed and Leap should be given on software-o-o, not on the main page, because there is no way we can explain the difference in a paragraph of text hidden under an annoying animation. The primary view, the first one you see on the page should be about the distributions, with a single link to software-o-o, so we can have a space for a solid explanation of similarities, differences, software etc.
# Getting information
[…]
Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye candy there, they function very often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not acceptable, I would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages just to get into enough detail about everything too.
Yes, I'd favour that as well. A menu is already there so it would be easy and quick to implement.
# Consolidate information
## News
[…]
3. lizards.opensuse.org […] Dead basically, I am still waiting for provo to get the stuff off there, it tends to be a long process (also YaST team needs blog on our infra, which is being worked on).
Any idea what takes them so long? Is there a point we could help? Don't get me wrong: we're all volunteers, but taking a website _offline_ is nothing that should take weeks (?) to get done. And telling YaST team to email their blog posts to Doug instead as well is nothing to be causing severe trouble.
Yeah, I think we all wonder what takes Provo that long most of the time, but I guess as any sysadmin office, they are busy doing their own stuff and not ours ;) It is more than taking it offline, we need a full copy of public_html from wordpress to publish it as archive (and to github repo that already exists for this very purpose, but is very much outdated). YaST Sprints are rather technical in most cases, not the best fit for news-o-o tbh. And YaST does have its blog, but it's burried, and https://yast.opensuse.org is missing a valid ssl certificate. Minor issues, the plan is to host YaST blog on static server (which I was supposed to do a few months ago, but never got around to), news-o-o would be hosted the same way.
## Website vs. Wiki
[…]
I believe the biggest mistake was separating contents between openSUSE and SDB namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely also looking for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There is no particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation is... strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
A lot of manual work...
The contributions side of things is being worked on by Imad Aldoj, with a dedicated website for helping newcomers with contributions.
Yes, I talked to him as well. Some special site is a great thing for external marketing and helping people to get on board. Looking at https://whatcanidoforlibreoffice.org or as you mentioned the Fedora equivalent is quite what we should get.
Yet there needs to be way more information on opensuse.org. We can't just point people to some other website.
Quite obviously, but I would rather explain the process of how we get things done before mentioning how to contribute, because it's easier to get into the process if you know what's up overall. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi,
What happened to them?
What happened was that I couldn't land on something that makes me 100% happy, I should share some more ideas and general layout somewhere sometime. In the end what caused the stop of any additional progress in January was my ambition to make the website too perfect, which cased me enough anxiety that I stopped before really starting to get results that would be good enough for a starting point, sorry :/
No need to apologize unless you start sharing the stuff now. I have the feeling that there are quite a few unfinished ideas around gathering dust... Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more information" is far higher than I would expect. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 18/06/2019 à 02:03, Jim Henderson a écrit :
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more information" is far higher than I would expect.
typing in google "opensuse" send here (first choice) https://fr.opensuse.org/Bienvenue_sur_openSUSE.org wich is fine, but I see in the page no "get openSUSE" entry and I don't find a simple way do download the dvd :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:01:30 +0200 schrieb "jdd@dodin.org" <jdd@dodin.org>:
typing in google "opensuse" send here (first choice)
https://fr.opensuse.org/Bienvenue_sur_openSUSE.org
wich is fine, but I see in the page no "get openSUSE" entry and I don't find a simple way do download the dvd :-(
Yes. Somehow the wiki has better search engine optimizations than the website itself. On the other hand it's no surprise that a website with hardly any informations gets ranked lower on Google than the wiki. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Ensure all dates site-wide are and stay in ISO 8601 format. It's a worldwide project with worldwide users. Dates like 05/06/07 and 06/18/19 are ambiguous if not obstructive. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 6/18/19 2:03 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all. One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more information" is far higher than I would expect.
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as well as to the descriptions. I added a few more links as well to software.o.o., lists.o.o and news.o.o. For the user group, it seems a bit more difficult as there is no description. Perhaps you can update your pinned post Jim with some of the info as well? v/r Doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as well as to the descriptions. I added a few more links as well to software.o.o., lists.o.o and news.o.o. For the user group, it seems a bit more difficult as there is no description. Perhaps you can update your pinned post Jim with some of the info as well?
Not a bad idea, I'll take a look at it. FB has made some changes to how rules can be posted as well, and I've been thinking about updating ours to make them a little more easily consumed. The page and the group are now linked as well, which should help somewhat. But I did see on the page that there's a settings change coming related to the description - guessing that's the change you made). -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as well as to the descriptions.
I did notice looking at the page that there are a couple settings that are being deprecated in early August - are those changes reflected in the description, or is that something that's "yet to come"? (We can take this offline if you like) -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 6/19/19 1:17 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
I made a few adjustments to the social media pages as well as to the descriptions. I did notice looking at the page that there are a couple settings that are being deprecated in early August - are those changes reflected in the description, or is that something that's "yet to come"?
(We can take this offline if you like)
There were a couple fields that are going to be deleted, so I basically took the info in those fields and pasted it into the one that will remain. I think the date for the change is at the end of the month. v/r Doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 07:32:02 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
There were a couple fields that are going to be deleted, so I basically took the info in those fields and pasted it into the one that will remain. I think the date for the change is at the end of the month.
Cool, I figured that you'd be on it, so I just left it alone. I'll look to do the same on the group, probably this weekend (crazy work week for me this week) -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:05:45 +0200, ddemaio wrote:
Perhaps you can update your pinned post Jim with some of the info as well?
Hey, Doug - I finally had some time to tweak this - I actually deleted the pinned post and wrote a new one, put the links in the group description, and moved the rules to where Facebook now puts them by default (as "Rules" under "About"). Should look a lot cleaner now. Took a lot longer to get to this than I had thought - if there's anything I missed, drop me a line and let me know, and I'll get it changed (much more quickly than it took for this round). -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 02:03:10 CEST Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more information" is far higher than I would expect.
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media groups. Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download link is extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although when not landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit cluttered. So we might want to think about improving the general UI and UX to be more streamlined with important links present everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and download pages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:52:00 +0200, Pierre Böckmann wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 02:03:10 CEST Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more information" is far higher than I would expect.
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media groups. Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download link is extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although when not landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit cluttered. So we might want to think about improving the general UI and UX to be more streamlined with important links present everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and download pages.
I tend to attribute it to people's laziness - it's easier to ask a question than search for what you're looking for (at least in a lot of peoples' eyes; I don't get that myself, if I want to know something, I can search and get an answer now rather than having to come back when someone answers). But it always makes me shake my head when I see it. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 15:45:26 -0000 (UTC) schrieb Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media groups. Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download link is extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although when not landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit cluttered. So we might want to think about improving the general UI and UX to be more streamlined with important links present everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and download pages.
I tend to attribute it to people's laziness - it's easier to ask a question than search for what you're looking for (at least in a lot of peoples' eyes; I don't get that myself, if I want to know something, I can search and get an answer now rather than having to come back when someone answers).
But it always makes me shake my head when I see it.
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is: The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be accessible there with as few clicks as possible. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:36:49 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is: The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if the answers are actually there. :) -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 21:45:30 CEST Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:36:49 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is: The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if the answers are actually there. :)
That's the point! And as soon as they are visible and easily find we will have less common questions asked on community forums and chats. :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/2019 09.17, Pierre Böckmann wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 June 2019 21:45:30 CEST Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:36:49 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is: The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if the answers are actually there. :)
That's the point!
And as soon as they are visible and easily find we will have less common questions asked on community forums and chats. :-)
The old SDB attempted to be a list of solutions for typical problems, among other things. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 09:17:41 +0200, Pierre Böckmann wrote:
100% agreed. We can educate people to look where the answers are only if the answers are actually there. :)
That's the point!
And as soon as they are visible and easily find we will have less common questions asked on community forums and chats. :-)
We can certainly hope that happens. :D Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/2019 21.36, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 15:45:26 -0000 (UTC) schrieb Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com>:
That's true. Even true to other openSUSE and Linux social media groups. Although I don't know why, because the Leap 15.1 download link is extremely present on the opensuse.org landingpage. Although when not landing on the mainpage navigation etc becomes a bit cluttered. So we might want to think about improving the general UI and UX to be more streamlined with important links present everywhere in the main menues like the Wiki/Documentation and download pages.
I tend to attribute it to people's laziness - it's easier to ask a question than search for what you're looking for (at least in a lot of peoples' eyes; I don't get that myself, if I want to know something, I can search and get an answer now rather than having to come back when someone answers).
But it always makes me shake my head when I see it.
Yes, it's somewhat miraculous why people type their questions into some community website instead of a search engine. But be it as it is: The common questions need to get answered on opensuse.org and be accessible there with as few clicks as possible.
Because the answers are more intelligent. A google search only sometimes answers correctly, it needs the adequately correct question. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:24:36 +0200 schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
Because the answers are more intelligent. A google search only sometimes answers correctly, it needs the adequately correct question.
I wouldn't bet on that... But that's another topic. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:24:36 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Because the answers are more intelligent. A google search only sometimes answers correctly, it needs the adequately correct question.
Ultimately, it depends on the complexity of the question. If the question is "where do I get openSUSE?" - that's something that should be easy to find, and logic would dictate that going to the project website should provide some easy clues about that. If the question is "my system is crashing with a stack dump in the nVidia proprietary video driver, what do I do?" - that maybe is a more complex question that merits asking in a forum or on a mailing list (even though the answer may be "don't use nVidia video cards" - which may be a correct answer, but is also usually not a helpful answer). Questions where "recall" is the method used should be answered before they're asked, if they're common. Questions that require knowledge synthesis, OTOH, make more sense to ask a group of experts. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 18/06/2019 02.03, Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 01:04:39 +0200, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
The thing is: opensuse.org is /the/ starting point for everyone with either little or no knowledge of openSUSE at all.
One would think so, but I'm surprised on our FB presence how many people don't know to go there. The number of questions we see there about "where do I go to download openSUSE?" or "where can I get more information" is far higher than I would expect.
The first site I go when I want to find about some new (to me) project, is the Wikipedia. From there I might go to the "Official website" listed there. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 18/06/2019 01.04, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Hi,
# First sight
...
# Getting information
[…] Absolutely, animations aren't just a nice eye candy there, they function very often as a roadblock between person and information, which is not acceptable, I would be much more in favour of splitting some stuff into subpages just to get into enough detail about everything too.
Yes, I'd favour that as well. A menu is already there so it would be easy and quick to implement.
I need to use bookmarks to bypass that entry page and get directly to the stuff I need. Those animations don't help, IMO. ...
## Website vs. Wiki […] I believe the biggest mistake was separating contents between openSUSE and SDB namespaces, when you are looking for software, you are most likely also looking for tutorials on how to install and use said software anyway. There is no particular reason why this needs to be in SDB articles in most cases.
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation is... strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
You have missed doc.opensuse.org (aka rtfm.opensuse.org) :-) The SDB is historic. Two decades ago it was a collection of text files we could download and even install as an rpm, and be served from our local apache if we wanted. Each entry possibly written by a single person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the packager. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Le 18/06/2019 à 12:05, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
The SDB is historic. Two decades ago it was a collection of text files we could download and even install as an rpm, and be served from our local apache if we wanted. Each entry possibly written by a single person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the packager.
no, anybody, but with strict organization. But now there is also a (pretty good) manual somewhere jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Tue, 18 Jun 2019 12:05:02 +0200 schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
Yes! A documentation separated into information and documentation is... strange somehow. Is there a way to revert that somehow?
You have missed doc.opensuse.org (aka rtfm.opensuse.org) :-)
Not really. In fact I just did not start to dig more detailed into the whole documentation and tutorial bits. That's yet another big mess to tackle... Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, On 18.06.19 12:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Each entry possibly written by a single person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the packager.
It was a collaboratively edited by many people (mostly from the SUSE support departments), it was a semantic (each article/section had lots of metadata) wiki before there where semantic wikis :-) As most often, the idea (document common problems & fixes/workarounds) today is still valid but the execution (people taking care of SDB content) today is weak. </grandpa> Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 19/06/2019 14.10, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 18.06.19 12:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Each entry possibly written by a single person that knew that particular stuff inside out, ie, probably the packager.
It was a collaboratively edited by many people (mostly from the SUSE support departments), it was a semantic (each article/section had lots of metadata) wiki before there where semantic wikis :-)
As most often, the idea (document common problems & fixes/workarounds) today is still valid but the execution (people taking care of SDB content) today is weak.
</grandpa>
:-D I tell you, it was a godsend. It was one of the things that tied me to openSUSE. At that time (pre 2000), downloading the packaged SDB took some time over my slow modem, but was worth it. Thanks a lot! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi, Following the replies and feedback in this thread I started to draft a reworked opensuse.org: - took chameleon bootstrap theme [1] - adapted it to a basic structure - copy/pasted a few contents You can click through it [2] or even pull the code [3]. Please keep in mind that this is a very rough, unpolished draft far from completion. My intention is to outline a structure how the site could work. Looking forward to your comments or even code commits rightaway! Regards, vinz. [1] https://github.com/openSUSE/opensuse-theme-chameleon [2] https://vinzv.de/dev/opensuse/ [3] https://github.com/vinzv/opensuse-landingpage -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On czw, cze 20, 2019 at 12:53 AM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi,
Following the replies and feedback in this thread I started to draft a reworked opensuse.org:
- took chameleon bootstrap theme [1] - adapted it to a basic structure - copy/pasted a few contents
You can click through it [2] or even pull the code [3].
Please keep in mind that this is a very rough, unpolished draft far from completion. My intention is to outline a structure how the site could work.
Looking forward to your comments or even code commits rightaway!
Regards, vinz.
[1] https://github.com/openSUSE/opensuse-theme-chameleon [2] https://vinzv.de/dev/opensuse/ [3] https://github.com/vinzv/opensuse-landingpage
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;) (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post) The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute top, while letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead. Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and concise. News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also links to news-o-o, in case you want to see more news. Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require some more links than just events, but it's a good start on having people understand that we aren't that scary (hopefully ;) Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is making, as well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more contents, but will probably be a little easier to navigate. I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we will need to remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name changes, after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now. Maybe we should wait? [1] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496049131928682506/591148549450891296... LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's really hard to read your emails.
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;) (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute top, while letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also links to news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require some more links than just events, but it's a good start on having people understand that we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is making, as well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more contents, but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest. I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when there are things around being already half finished. But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we will need to remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name changes, after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now. Maybe we should wait?
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6 months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight. That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket science. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/06/2019 14.05, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's really hard to read your emails.
His mail looks fine here :-? There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him, though. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:17:53 +0200 schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
His mail looks fine here :-? There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him, though.
Sure? Even the web archive of this list shows the messed up wrapping: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00253.html Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
* Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> [06-20-19 09:01]:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:17:53 +0200 schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
His mail looks fine here :-? There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him, though.
Sure? Even the web archive of this list shows the messed up wrapping: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00253.html
they look fine to me viewing and replying and on the archive. but I use a text client, mutt. perhaps you both have a problem with your client configuration or you client is deficient. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:12:22 -0400 schrieb Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org>:
they look fine to me viewing and replying and on the archive.
but I use a text client, mutt. perhaps you both have a problem with your client configuration or you client is deficient.
Nope. Problem was Stasiek's char count of 79 which is non-standard. Problem solved. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
* Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> [06-20-19 12:22]:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:12:22 -0400 schrieb Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org>:
they look fine to me viewing and replying and on the archive.
but I use a text client, mutt. perhaps you both have a problem with your client configuration or you client is deficient.
Nope. Problem was Stasiek's char count of 79 which is non-standard. Problem solved.
standard is <80 chars, and iirc 72 is suggested. your client is apparently only able to adjust to "72" chars. what will you do if someone sends 70 or doesn't wrap as is quite common amoung the unwashed? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 12:38:31 -0400 schrieb Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org>:
standard is <80 chars, and iirc 72 is suggested. your client is apparently only able to adjust to "72" chars. what will you do if someone sends 70 or doesn't wrap as is quite common amoung the unwashed?
As said: the problem is solved. You're going off topic. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 20/06/2019 14.59, Vinzenz Vietzke wrote:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:17:53 +0200 schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:
His mail looks fine here :-? There is a problem with the automatic wrapping when replying to him, though.
Sure? Even the web archive of this list shows the messed up wrapping: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2019-06/msg00253.html
Sorry, I don't see the problem there. I only notice that line length varies a lot, but it could be because the font is proportional when it should be fixed. The problem I see is not while reading the post. Example, as it displays here (I had to disable automatic wrap, so this post has long lines): +++-------------- I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post) --------------++- When quoting, this is done as:
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;) (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post)
which is strange. The explanation is seen looking at the raw text in the email: +++-------------- I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;) (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post) --------------++- Better looking at the first line of that paragraph in hex: 00000400 67 65 0a 0a 49 20 64 72 65 77 20 61 20 71 75 69 |ge..I drew a qui| 00000410 63 6b 20 6d 6f 63 6b 75 70 20 5b 31 5d 20 66 6f |ck mockup [1] fo| 00000420 72 20 74 68 65 20 73 61 6b 65 20 6f 66 20 69 74 |r the sake of it| 00000430 2c 20 49 20 64 69 64 6e 27 74 20 74 68 69 6e 6b |, I didn't think| 00000440 20 74 68 61 74 20 74 68 65 72 65 20 0a 61 72 65 | that there .are| 00000450 20 6e 6f 74 0a 65 6e 6f 75 67 68 20 6c 69 6e 6b | not.enough link| There is a '0a' (LF) before "are not" and another after the "not". This is perhaps what you are seeing. Some clients are able to cope with that, while others are not. But both Thunderbird and Alpine show the problem when quoting the text. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hey Vinzv, I completely agree with your points but I also understand where lcp is coming from and I wish it was as simple as changing the color... but we might end up starting from scratch again if a complete rebranding takes place (for example just making the logo circular will lead to changes in the navbar which may no longer work well with the rest of landing page and so on) I'm afraid we're fighting on many fronts right now, so I suggest the following: for now we can improve the website but not in a dramatic way just to make it right and without rushing it up. By waiting a couple of months, we'll have a better(although maybe not polished but still better) vision about the future of the branding/ the foundation/ the name and all of this. the outcome of these even if it was "no foundation, stay with the current brand" then that's stable enough to build on, and in the case of rebranding, we don't have to wait for everything to finish, as soon as the name settle down we can work on branding/design language and shortly after the website architecture and design. So the points are valid and we all agree that the website can use some improvement but we need to take the timeline into account. Hope you find this somewhat convenient. On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 3:05 PM Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's really hard to read your emails.
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;) (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute top, while letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also links to news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require some more links than just events, but it's a good start on having people understand that we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is making, as well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more contents, but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we will need to remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name changes, after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now. Maybe we should wait?
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6 months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket science.
Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On czw, cze 20, 2019 at 2:05 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> wrote:
Hi,
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's really hard to read your emails.
I guess having 79 characters per line doesn't work too well, changed it to 72
I drew a quick mockup [1] for the sake of it, I didn't think that there are not enough links to external pages, and too many subpages there, so I consolidated most of it. I don't really see why the page shouldn't be as long as it currently is, as long as it uses the space in ways that make sense ;) (This mockup probably has the worst spacing ever anyway, but we will fix that in post)
The distributions section got shorter, you get that at the absolute top, while letting the software-o-o explain tw and leap in more detail instead.
Tools are represented in categories, so we can explain how they fit into overall openSUSE goals, while staying relatively short and concise.
News are just one (latest) article sourced from news-o-o, it also links to news-o-o, in case you want to see more news.
Some explanation about who openSUSE Community is, that will require some more links than just events, but it's a good start on having people understand that we aren't that scary (hopefully ;)
Contributions, well, it will point to the site that Imad Aldoj is making, as well as subpage about hardware donations, it still requires some more contents, but will probably be a little easier to navigate.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
Attribute the eye burning colours to the awful colour palette openSUSE has, which instead of enabling more interesting designs causes everything to way too bright The worst part is that this is how the colours were supposed to be used, despite not being fit for the purpose (at least that's how they appear to be used in marketing materials). And despite the fact that it is a 90% of the current landing page, it fixes all the issues that the current page has in my opinion: * Links more to external resources instead of relying on the landing page itself (software-o-o already explains the differences between distributions, why duplicate, news-o-o already has all the news, why duplicate, contributions page will have all the details about contributing, why duplicate) * Gives more space to projects other than distributions * References to openSUSE as us, not them * Mentions community more If we want to fix the way openSUSE Distributions are presented to people, we should need to do it in one place, not two or three (there is also some stuff on the wiki after all). And obviously mockup is half finished, it's a mockup, it shows ideas, it took me a few minutes to make it, don't expect a Mona Lisa out of a sketch ;)
I also feel, this is probably the worst time to be making this, we will need to remake the page after logo changes, after colour changes, after name changes, after foundation happens anyway, which is being discussed right now. Maybe we should wait?
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6 months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket science.
It isn't, but I would hope all of this would be tied together. It's just a few years at most, we can wait :P LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 17:13:22 +0200 schrieb Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org>:
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's really hard to read your emails.
I guess having 79 characters per line doesn't work too well, changed it to 72
Thanks, much better now.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
Attribute the eye burning colours to the awful colour palette openSUSE has, which instead of enabling more interesting designs causes everything to way too bright
The worst part is that this is how the colours were supposed to be used, despite not being fit for the purpose (at least that's how they appear to be used in marketing materials).
So why not unclutter it and use one or two main colors? It's not like we have you use every tone given from the palette as if it was the holy grail.
And despite the fact that it is a 90% of the current landing page, it fixes all the issues that the current page has in my opinion: * Links more to external resources instead of relying on the landing page itself (software-o-o already explains the differences between distributions, why duplicate, news-o-o already has all the news, why duplicate, contributions page will have all the details about contributing, why duplicate)
Sending people from A to B to C with always different layouts. That is so wrong. I'd prefer any duplication instead of this navigation mess.
* Gives more space to projects other than distributions * References to openSUSE as us, not them * Mentions community more
If we want to fix the way openSUSE Distributions are presented to people, we should need to do it in one place, not two or three (there is also some stuff on the wiki after all).
Please re-read your first bullet point. You're dissenting with yourself here now.
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6 months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket science.
It isn't, but I would hope all of this would be tied together. It's just a few years at most, we can wait :P
We agreed on the overall web presence being at best not satisfying. So why wait until the tasks are stacked? Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On czw, cze 20, 2019 at 7:26 PM, Vinzenz Vietzke <vinz@vinzv.de> wrote:
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 17:13:22 +0200 schrieb Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org>:
in advance: can you please fix your email client's wrapping? It's really hard to read your emails.
I guess having 79 characters per line doesn't work too well, changed it to 72
Thanks, much better now.
Hm, that whole story is a bit frustrating to be honest.
I haven't seen the mockups yet you mentioned earlier in this thread. So I had to start somewhere out of the blue which is quite pointless when there are things around being already half finished.
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
Attribute the eye burning colours to the awful colour palette openSUSE has, which instead of enabling more interesting designs causes everything to way too bright
The worst part is that this is how the colours were supposed to be used, despite not being fit for the purpose (at least that's how they appear to be used in marketing materials).
So why not unclutter it and use one or two main colors? It's not like we have you use every tone given from the palette as if it was the holy grail.
Eh, this particular green gets worse the darker it gets, it's certainly less eye burning, but that's not helping it look any better.
And despite the fact that it is a 90% of the current landing page, it fixes all the issues that the current page has in my opinion: * Links more to external resources instead of relying on the landing page itself (software-o-o already explains the differences between distributions, why duplicate, news-o-o already has all the news, why duplicate, contributions page will have all the details about contributing, why duplicate)
Sending people from A to B to C with always different layouts. That is so wrong. I'd prefer any duplication instead of this navigation mess.
All of those places do, or already have plans to move to new navigation bar/footer with chameleon migration (except OSEM), It's the same navigation for this very reason. We certainly can't avoid not linking elsewhere, so why not link everything externally, especially since that's where the content already is.
* Gives more space to projects other than distributions * References to openSUSE as us, not them * Mentions community more
If we want to fix the way openSUSE Distributions are presented to people, we should need to do it in one place, not two or three (there is also some stuff on the wiki after all).
Please re-read your first bullet point. You're dissenting with yourself here now.
Nope, I'm repeating myself, I want one place with all the basic information you need on distributions, without the need to edit many of them to fit the current state. So moving everything to software-o-o seems like the most sensible way to do it.
Wait until when? Settling the foundation alone will take up to 6 months. But even leaving it out there's still not a single date or time span for logo and renaming around at all. Which means it will take 2-3 months at minimum until there is any final decision in sight.
That aside: changing color codes and switching logos is no rocket science.
It isn't, but I would hope all of this would be tied together. It's just a few years at most, we can wait :P
We agreed on the overall web presence being at best not satisfying. So why wait until the tasks are stacked?
We can already fix a bulk of it by forming a plan for fixing software-o-o's presentation of distributions, cleaning up wiki from useless stuff that is already said in other places, fixing OSEM to use the same navigation as existing openSUSE websites, stuff that might not be related to the main site at this moment, but would make navigating between websites easier and more informational. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 21:06:05 +0200 schrieb Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org>:
So why not unclutter it and use one or two main colors? It's not like we have you use every tone given from the palette as if it was the holy grail.
Eh, this particular green gets worse the darker it gets, it's certainly less eye burning, but that's not helping it look any better.
Then reduce the use of green to just logos, menus and accents. Get rid of the huge blank spaces with no special purpose.
Sending people from A to B to C with always different layouts. That is so wrong. I'd prefer any duplication instead of this navigation mess.
All of those places do, or already have plans to move to new navigation bar/footer with chameleon migration (except OSEM), It's the same navigation for this very reason. We certainly can't avoid not linking elsewhere, so why not link everything externally, especially since that's where the content already is.
Then if there are plans already, what keeps it from being fulfilled? And to link everything externally because there are some things that have be linked externally is a really, really strange UX approach.
Please re-read your first bullet point. You're dissenting with yourself here now.
Nope, I'm repeating myself, I want one place with all the basic information you need on distributions, without the need to edit many of them to fit the current state. So moving everything to software-o-o seems like the most sensible way to do it.
So, to recap: you want one place with basic information and instead of making opensuse.org this place you want to move everything to software-o-o?
We agreed on the overall web presence being at best not satisfying. So why wait until the tasks are stacked?
We can already fix a bulk of it by forming a plan for fixing software-o-o's presentation of distributions, cleaning up wiki from useless stuff that is already said in other places, fixing OSEM to use the same navigation as existing openSUSE websites, stuff that might not be related to the main site at this moment, but would make navigating between websites easier and more informational.
That sounds like where I'm trying to get to. But not by literally patching a broken design from 2015. Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2019-06-20 14:05 (UTC+0200):
But now you're coming around the corner with a 90% copy of the current landing page. All in all you gave it different fonts and made the colours more eye burning but kept the unclear overall structure.
Eye burning? Where? What? -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:49:39 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>:
Eye burning? Where? What?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496049131928682506/591148549450891296... Regards, vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Vinzenz Vietzke composed on 2019-06-20 23:47 (UTC+0200):
Am Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:49:39 -0400 Felix Miata composed:
Eye burning? Where? What?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496049131928682506/591148549450891296...
If you mean garish, ugly shade of yellowish-green background I agree. I just get lost trying to understand the use of "eye burning" to describe it. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Carlos E. R. -
ddemaio -
Felix Miata -
Henne Vogelsang -
Imad Aldoj -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Jim Henderson -
Patrick Shanahan -
Pierre Böckmann -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vinzenz Vietzke