Hi,
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
Not much came of that unfortunately.
What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.
What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on - Connectivity of devices - Support for syncronizing devices - Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.
It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.
The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.
So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?
Kind regards,
Birger
Birger Kollstrand a écrit :
So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?
I have no clue about Novell strategy, but looking at what is available, we can have some ideas.
Say... Just this morning I was fed of the problems I have with 11.1 and wondered if I was not to change to an other distro, so I looked around me.
* I have a Mandriva cd (Mandriva One). But I see no online repositories and if I want more, say a dvd, I have to pay to have one. That said, they gives away CD by hundred.
* I have a debian mini CD, but aptitude is not that handy. I have to know what package I want and then apt-get install do a tremendous work. Yet the mini cd do not recognise the network cards I have, so the install fails... even after install with the cd1, I still have problem to reconfigure any service (you have to know any part of debian to be able to make this at hand - what are the init levels in debian?)
* I have an ubuntu cd. 8.04 LTS is very attractive. But I have yet to test it to see if I wont be down to aptitude very soon, no dvd and repositories are debians
So may be I will try to move my 11.0 install to an other, bigger, partition.
I have plenty of problems with the 11.1, but the only really blocking is the intel wifi driver not working, so I can't use it out of my house! given the 11.0 one works perfectly, it looks like a simple problem, but it's well know (many bug reports) and not yet solved.
So what? openSUSE is largely the more friendly Linux distribution, with the most impressive number of incorporated packages, with all at hand, a very strong community (think of Packman!!) and the larger scope: one can make an openSUSE headless server, an openSUSE fancy desktop, whatever he wants, all with the same well known distribution.
So what can Novell do better: lot of things, but the new bugzilla shows the bug solving problem is understood and the last openSUSE 11.1 box had stickers (and even a very handy diode light :-))
jdd
2009/1/15 jdd jdd@dodin.org:
Birger Kollstrand a écrit :
- I have a debian mini CD, but aptitude is not that handy. I have to
know what package I want and then apt-get install do a tremendous work. Yet the mini cd do not recognise the network cards I have, so the install fails... even after install with the cd1, I still have problem to reconfigure any service (you have to know any part of debian to be able to make this at hand - what are the init levels in debian?)
Debian had a vote way back, and the decision was that they are uncessary complication (rationale given was the Debian user would only install programs they wanted to use).
Nevermind the problems of sysadmins, doing system maintenance.
In reality even with Upstart for compatibility reasons, init is there supporting run levels and in theory you could set them up. But then there's the problem of a poor default choice, on another script, which effectively makes it a big mess, to stop daemons in the right order.
That was actually, apart from better KDE environment, and the OOo version that were the main reasons to use openSUSE, when looking Q4/2007.
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Birger Kollstrand escribió:
I ave tried setting up a media server wiht different linux solutions. It's not easy.
Bug reports on why it was not easy ? (other than the well-known, legally unfixable lack of some multimedia codecs, of course)
I have tried syncing my phone with linux applications, not the easiest task.
Why ? we need evidence please, concrete problems..tell us more about your experience ...
As far as I know openSUSE oes not even have a selected DLNA/UpnP
So, looks like what you want a security disaster + DRM + patents with some unstandardized, "Designed by committee", stuff? Does not sound good to me, sorry.
User centric applications.
Do you have any proposal other than marketing phrases like "user centric applications" ?
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Birger Kollstrand birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com wrote:
Hi,
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
Not much came of that unfortunately.
What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.
What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.
It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.
The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.
So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?
Kind regards,
Birger
I'm Interested in responses to this too. With every person I've shown openSUSE to they've had the same issues: problems understanding/navigating YaST and how it fits in with traditional tools. And how to find, install and update software. We don't even need more usability testing, we just need fixes. But on account of I have done nothing to help with this, I'll get off my soapbox.
I would really like to know what went on with some of the changes in 11.1. Since 10.1 I was able to install my printer with ease of the printer configs but now it recognized my scanner but not the printer and they are both Canon MP530's all in one. On previous versions I was able to force in use of the MP500 printer driver on the OpenSUSE GUI but now all I get is errors and I cannot get pass the GUI. Well guess it is back to manual configs again but my complaint is why change something that worked before and now does not? I do not understand when they do things like this and the current printer configs are what I call a new users nightmare. Before one could click the model and look for the driver but now unless the user knows where it is he has to browse. How many new users would even know where to browse in the files? When I did find the MP500 driver in the cups-gutenprint folder the OpenSUSE program would not let me install it telling me it is the wrong driver when in fact it is not. I could not even force install it because OpenSUSE would not allow this. Now this would turn off a new user at the get go and that if he/she was able to get this far.
Why the developers made a easy to use GUIand make it into something difficult is beyond me. This is another type of "well the user should be a geek and understand what to do".
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Eric Springer erikina@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Birger Kollstrand birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com wrote:
Hi,
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
Not much came of that unfortunately.
What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.
What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.
It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.
The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.
So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?
Kind regards,
Birger
I'm Interested in responses to this too. With every person I've shown openSUSE to they've had the same issues: problems understanding/navigating YaST and how it fits in with traditional tools. And how to find, install and update software. We don't even need more usability testing, we just need fixes. But on account of I have done nothing to help with this, I'll get off my soapbox. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Fredag 16 januar 2009 10:19:54 skrev member greenarrow1:
I would really like to know what went on with some of the changes in 11.1. Since 10.1 I was able to install my printer with ease of the printer configs but now it recognized my scanner but not the printer and they are both Canon MP530's all in one. On previous versions I was able to force in use of the MP500 printer driver on the OpenSUSE GUI but now all I get is errors and I cannot get pass the GUI.
Maybe you're just hit by the same confusion about how the new module works, like many others before you - including myself: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=446186
An online update with text string changes is in the pipeline I believe.
Alternatively use the cups web-interface: http://localhost:631/
2009/1/16 member greenarrow1 greenarrow1@opensuse.us:
I would really like to know what went on with some of the changes in 11.1. Since 10.1 I was able to install my printer with ease of the printer configs but now it recognized my scanner but not the printer and they are both Canon MP530's all in one. On previous versions I was able to force in use of the MP500 printer driver on the OpenSUSE GUI but now all I get is errors and I cannot get pass the GUI. Well guess it is back to manual configs again but my complaint is why change something that worked before and now does not? I do not understand when they do things like this and the current printer configs are what I call a new users nightmare. Before one could click the model and look for the driver but now unless the user knows where it is he has to browse. How many new users would even know where to browse in the files? When I did find the MP500 driver in the cups-gutenprint folder the OpenSUSE program would not let me install it telling me it is the wrong driver when in fact it is not. I could not even force install it because OpenSUSE would not allow this. Now this would turn off a new user at the get go and that if he/she was able to get this far.
Why the developers made a easy to use GUIand make it into something difficult is beyond me. This is another type of "well the user should be a geek and understand what to do".
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Eric Springer erikina@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Birger Kollstrand birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com wrote:
Hi,
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
Not much came of that unfortunately.
What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.
What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.
It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.
The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.
So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?
Kind regards,
Birger
I'm Interested in responses to this too. With every person I've shown openSUSE to they've had the same issues: problems understanding/navigating YaST and how it fits in with traditional tools. And how to find, install and update software. We don't even need more usability testing, we just need fixes. But on account of I have done nothing to help with this, I'll get off my soapbox. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Please don't hijac the thread with user support. There are other forums for that. Use bugzilla for problems on 11.1.
Regards
Hi,
Birger Kollstrand wrote:
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
There is no such thing as Novell's point of view. Thats why you have a hard time getting that answer. Novell is a Company and asking about specifics like that is like asking about the hair color of Novell.
What you can get is the plans, goals and dreams of the individual People (including people from Novell) working on this Project formulated and consolidated in the Projects plans[0], goals[1] and dreams[2].
In short: You are asking for something that does not exists :)
Henne
[0] http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Product_Highlights [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles#We_want_to..._2
Fredag 16 januar 2009 12:02:54 skrev Henne Vogelsang:
Birger Kollstrand wrote:
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
There is no such thing as Novell's point of view. Thats why you have a hard time getting that answer. Novell is a Company and asking about specifics like that is like asking about the hair color of Novell.
What you can get is the plans, goals and dreams of the individual People (including people from Novell) working on this Project formulated and consolidated in the Projects plans[0], goals[1] and dreams[2].
In short: You are asking for something that does not exists :)
[0] http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Product_Highlights [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles#We_want_to..._2
With openFATE becoming available, maybe the great mystery of what gets developer priority when and why will become a little less mysterious for us "outside" people. http://features.opensuse.org
On the other hand, ignorance could be bliss. For example I'm not sure I'd really like to know about the decision making process that lead to the development of simple-ccsm-kde - can't be pretty ;-)
Am Freitag 16 Januar 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
On the other hand, ignorance could be bliss. For example I'm not sure I'd really like to know about the decision making process that lead to the development of simple-ccsm-kde - can't be pretty ;-)
Wasn't that the compiz project?
Greetings, Stephan
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Hi,
Birger Kollstrand wrote:
2009/1/16 Henne Vogelsang hvogel@opensuse.org:
Birger Kollstrand wrote:
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
There is no such thing as Novell's point of view. Thats why you have a hard time getting that answer. Novell is a Company and asking about specifics like that is like asking about the hair color of Novell.
What you can get is the plans, goals and dreams of the individual People (including people from Novell) working on this Project formulated and consolidated in the Projects plans[0], goals[1] and dreams[2].
In short: You are asking for something that does not exists :)
Ok :-)
But what about where do Novell want to put their development resources? What areas do Novell want to improve to get their professional product to a higher standard? The pro products are based upon the open product so some priorites are surly present?
Of course. But the tail(novell) does not wag the dog(opensuse). So its the openSUSE project that plans (in the just released openFATE) and then everyone, including the novell developers, execute. Of course also the SUSE Linux Enterprise people plan, so do most of the individual teams and these plans influence each other. As you see its not that easy and straightforward as you might think. There is no simple top-to-bottom command structure.
But it´s not so easy to influence the direction of the devlopment without being a developer.
Nothing is easy :) But it is for sure possible.
That´s understandable as most developers are doing what they want to do and not assigning their capabilities to the best of the overall project.
I am a developer and i can tell you that this is really not true. What makes you say that?
Henne
2009/1/16 Henne Vogelsang hvogel@opensuse.org:
That´s understandable as most developers are doing what they want to do and not assigning their capabilities to the best of the overall project.
I am a developer and i can tell you that this is really not true. What makes you say that?
10 years of open experience from source participation on user level. But please do not take it personally. I do not know every developer so this is my subjective leraning and does ofcourse not apply to everybody!
There is an overwhelming desire to create different implementations of the same problem. The lack of a project structure where users are asked for what they need and want. How many distros are thre, 200? There are at least 5 different medicentre veriosn, none which are easy to use. Constant reimplementation of desktop environments while stuff like syncing mobiles and handling media for mediaplayers is really bad. File systems en mass, how many controll centre SW in the distros, packaging formats, package managers (How many are supported/used in SUSE?)
And it´s not all negative that developers do this. More implementaions gives choice and people generally work best with stuff they like.
So I still believe that a set of use cases and a organized way to implement them would be good. (and maybe drop the focus on the next BIG THING in the DE´s).
openFATE looks interesting, but it does not seem to contain anything yet?
cu
Birger Kollstrand wrote:
2009/1/16 Henne Vogelsang hvogel@opensuse.org:
That´s understandable as most developers are doing what they want to do and not assigning their capabilities to the best of the overall project.
I am a developer and i can tell you that this is really not true. What makes you say that?
10 years of open experience from source participation on user level. But please do not take it personally. I do not know every developer so this is my subjective leraning and does ofcourse not apply to everybody!
There is an overwhelming desire to create different implementations of the same problem. The lack of a project structure where users are asked for what they need and want. How many distros are thre, 200? There are at least 5 different medicentre veriosn, none which are easy to use. Constant reimplementation of desktop environments while stuff like syncing mobiles and handling media for mediaplayers is really bad. File systems en mass, how many controll centre SW in the distros, packaging formats, package managers (How many are supported/used in SUSE?)
And it´s not all negative that developers do this. More implementaions gives choice and people generally work best with stuff they like.
So I still believe that a set of use cases and a organized way to implement them would be good. (and maybe drop the focus on the next BIG THING in the DE´s).
openFATE looks interesting, but it does not seem to contain anything yet?
It does, for example see this link: https://features.opensuse.org/query/run?type=find&search_products%5B%5D=... to get a list of all planned features for 11.2.
Greetings
Birger Kollstrand escribió:
There is an overwhelming desire to create different implementations of the same problem.
Maybe because a single implementation does not meet user demands ?
File systems en mass,
There are different filesystems for different purposes...
packaging formats,
So far, only RPM and DEB and widely used, that let us with only two..
package managers (How many are supported/used in SUSE?)
Only libzypp based package managers are supported in openSUSE, but others are provided for convenience..(or said otherwise, to allow people to shoot themselves in the foot gracefully :-) )
-- "We have art in order not to die of the truth" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Cristian Rodríguez R. Software Developer Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
2009/1/16 Cristian Rodríguez crrodriguez@suse.de:
File systems en mass,
There are different filesystems for different purposes...
And a multitude that servs the same. Ext3, Ext4, JFS , ZFS, btrfs, Reiser3/4, cluster fileystems, flash filesystems. I think it would be possible to work together a bit more.
packaging formats,
So far, only RPM and DEB and widely used, that let us with only two..
and tar packaged files. An also I was not totally precise there, i should have said packaging SW for linux. If a user finds a package, does it fit his distro?
package managers (How many are supported/used in SUSE?)
Only libzypp based package managers are supported in openSUSE, but others are provided for convenience..(or said otherwise, to allow people to shoot themselves in the foot gracefully :-) )
:-)
Birger Kollstrand escribió:
2009/1/16 Cristian Rodríguez crrodriguez@suse.de:
File systems en mass,
There are different filesystems for different purposes...
And a multitude that servs the same. Ext3, Ext4, JFS , ZFS, btrfs, Reiser3/4,
all those filesystems are for different uses !
and tar packaged files.
IMHO tar archives don't qualify as a software package format.
An also I was not totally precise there, i
should have said packaging SW for linux. If a user finds a package, does it fit his distro?
If they search in the right place, yes, else no.
10 years of open experience from source participation on user level.
You say it like 10 years flying in airliners would make a pilot of you...
2009/1/17 Druid marcio.ferreira@gmail.com:
10 years of open experience from source participation on user level.
You say it like 10 years flying in airliners would make a pilot of you...
:-)
Thx for the constructive element in the debate. This really brings the debate forward.
On 2009-01-16T16:22:25, Birger Kollstrand birger.kollstrand@googlemail.com wrote:
There is an overwhelming desire to create different implementations of the same problem.
This is an apparently necessary step before convergence can happen; the community tends to have the resources to explore many (subtly) different technical/social/organizational directions at once before converging. That is actually one of the strengths.
Regards, Lars
On Thursday 15 January 2009 19:41:50 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
Hi,
I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.
Not much came of that unfortunately.
What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.
What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers. In practice the primary focus is on desktop but we distribute packages for the rest as well.
openSUSE has different needs: * we use it as basis for our enterprise server and desktop products * we want to grow the openSUSE community
openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)
Should we focus the distribution more? And what do to with the other use cases?
All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.
It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.
The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.
So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?
Michl can give some more details here but is on vacation for the next days,
Andreas
2009/1/16 Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.de:
On Thursday 15 January 2009 19:41:50 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers. In practice the primary focus is on desktop but we distribute packages for the rest as well.
Actually I find the server part the best. And that part is really good from my point of view. The desktop I find to much focused on the latest KDE version or the latest Gnome version. To do everything at the same time is not possible with high quality. Choices must be made just as the choice to drop KDE 3.5 down the line is sensible.
openSUSE has different needs:
- we use it as basis for our enterprise server and desktop products
- we want to grow the openSUSE community
openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)
:-) as always.
Should we focus the distribution more?
Yes. I think it`s always a good idea to build brick by brick. Choose a strategy for focus areas per release.
And what do to with the other use cases?
Plan them for future attention and loving :-)
Thanks for responding Andreas!
cu
On Friday 16 January 2009 21:41:08 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
2009/1/16 Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.de:
On Thursday 15 January 2009 19:41:50 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers. In practice the primary focus is on desktop but we distribute packages for the rest as well.
Actually I find the server part the best. And that part is really good from my point of view. The desktop I find to much focused on the latest KDE version or the latest Gnome version. To do everything at the same time is not possible with high quality. Choices must be made just as the choice to drop KDE 3.5 down the line is sensible.
openSUSE has different needs:
- we use it as basis for our enterprise server and desktop products
- we want to grow the openSUSE community
openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)
:-) as always. :
Should we focus the distribution more?
Yes. I think it`s always a good idea to build brick by brick. Choose a strategy for focus areas per release.
And what do to with the other use cases?
Plan them for future attention and loving :-)
Ah, so you propose to focus openSUSE 11.2 on one specific topic and put lots of effort into that one while we do the rest as well and 11.3 on another one and that way add more features over time?
We try to have a couple of high-level features for each release and we're way beyond discussing and finalizing them. :-(
I have two meta-features that I find very important for openSUSE 11.2: * enabling participation in all areas: we have build openSUSE 11.2 completely for the first time in the openSUSE Build Service (OBS). But there are stil a couple of things that can only be done inside the Novell network and I'd like to have this changed * easier way to follow factory: Currently the factory distribution changes quite heavily and it's difficult to follow it since many packages need to be updated every time - and each package needs to be downloaded completely. So, we have to check how to reduce the number of packages to download and how to make them smaller (relevant features are #303532 and #305634),
Andreas
2009/1/16 Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.de:
openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)
:-) as always. :
Should we focus the distribution more?
Yes. I think it`s always a good idea to build brick by brick. Choose a strategy for focus areas per release.
And what do to with the other use cases?
Plan them for future attention and loving :-)
Ah, so you propose to focus openSUSE 11.2 on one specific topic and put lots of effort into that one while we do the rest as well and 11.3 on another one and that way add more features over time?
Well, one would be hard, but at least some areas and if possible work closely with upstream projects to help them get it into good shape. (And mabye in some way channel openSUSE resources to them?)
On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:07:27PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
- easier way to follow factory: Currently the factory distribution changes
quite heavily and it's difficult to follow it since many packages need to be updated every time - and each package needs to be downloaded completely. So, we have to check how to reduce the number of packages to download and how to make them smaller (relevant features are #303532 and #305634),
Thanks for the references. For your clickety convenience: https://features.opensuse.org/303532 https://features.opensuse.org/305634
2009/1/16 Andreas Jaeger aj@suse.de:
What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?
- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on
- Connectivity of devices
- Support for syncronizing devices
- Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.
I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers. In practice the primary focus is on desktop but we distribute packages for the rest as well.
There is a mission statement, which is "create best Linux distro, foster innovation, work together with upstream and make users happy" from the project guidelines, working in an open manner.
openSUSE has different needs:
- we use it as basis for our enterprise server and desktop products
- we want to grow the openSUSE community
openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)
Should we focus the distribution more? And what do to with the other use cases?
Removing or just de-emphasising areas of traditional support, would likely be very divisive. Folk get upset when only the "Other" desktops or window managers are available.
Perhaps it's useful to think of 3 pillars of user base :
1 - distributing and stabilising, upstream software, developing inhouse projects 2 - stabilisation and development towards SLE (including ISV projects) 3 - growing Linux market, with a reliable, easy to manage full featured Desktop
At the moment, OBS is really aimed at addressing 1, though reading Factory list archive suggests, difficulties on 1
The release engineering, distribution of openSUSE and post-installation support and fixing, addresses 2 though I'm sure SLE engineers would love having more problems solved, up front by competent enthusiast contributions
But 3 is IMO let down at present, by releasing prematurely, and long term benefit decisions with short term costs
If you spend some time, trying to field Installation questions, from new users, it becomes obvious that error notifications deemed in Bugzilla "cosmetic" erode confidence. Large numbers of known bugs in heavily used systems, are then hit over and over. The Internal developments are often let down by useability nits, sometimes just labelling of buttons, or font sizes, which the open process ought to benefit from early feedback, without expensive "focus group" testing.
There's a real conflict of requirement between the "Bleeding Edge" and "It Just Works".
Are there ways, of having the cake and eating it? Perhaps using stable fall backs, and having "Probationary" upgrades. Or do you really need a watefall model of improvements, trickling down, and finally having very widely tested good stuff frozen for SLE?
On Friday 16 Jan 2009, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
If you spend some time, trying to field Installation questions, from new users, it becomes obvious that error notifications deemed in Bugzilla "cosmetic" erode confidence. Large numbers of known bugs in heavily used systems, are then hit over and over. The Internal developments are often let down by useability nits, sometimes just labelling of buttons, or font sizes, which the open process ought to benefit from early feedback, without expensive "focus group" testing.
We're talking customer satisfaction and perception here. From my own experience of managing a help desk, allowing the affected people to set priority from their perspective separately from "fix priority" allows much of this to be captured, and assigning a proportion of the support budget to what (from a developer's perspective) are cosmetic problems or other annoyances is a successful way of raising satisfaction in the product.
David
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
Perhaps it's useful to think of 3 pillars of user base :
1 - distributing and stabilising, upstream software, developing inhouse projects
Agreed.
2 - stabilisation and development towards SLE (including ISV projects)
SLE and ISV projects don't sound very much like a key focus we ought to have here in the openSUSE context. I suggest to really focus on openSUSE.
3 - growing Linux market, with a reliable, easy to manage full featured Desktop
Agreed, except that we have never limited openSUSE to the desktop, and I wouldn't want to change that.
But 3 is IMO let down at present, by releasing prematurely, and long term benefit decisions with short term costs
I'll claim that a large part of the problem is testing too late focus on fixing things too late in the cycle.
Gerald
2009/1/19 Gerald Pfeifer gp@novell.com:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:
Perhaps it's useful to think of 3 pillars of user base :
1 - distributing and stabilising, upstream software, developing inhouse projectsAgreed.
2 - stabilisation and development towards SLE (including ISV projects)SLE and ISV projects don't sound very much like a key focus we ought to have here in the openSUSE context. I suggest to really focus on openSUSE.
The project does have to be useful to it's main sponsors, to disregard their interests is self defeating.
Without that, why does openSUSE putt changes into the release that are known to break things in short/medium term? Stuff like PulseAudio breaking Flash & Skype, and enabling pata_* experimental libata IDE drivers cause things to break on installs, but some long term benefit is expected. Without widening the user base, progress would be slower.
However category 2 is described, the point is there's some conflict with 3, the "Just Works" trying Linux out, who are mainly Desktop users.
Whilst I know those quick categories are imperfect, and imprecise, there are aims that draw the poject in different directions. Being General Purpose is a strength, as expressed well:
2009/1/19 Henne Vogelsang hvogel@opensuse.org:
I really don't think that this is a problem at all. The contrary is true imho. This is what separates us from most of the other distros out there. You can _seriously_ use the distro on the desktop, the server, the laptop and use it for all kinds of use-cases without hacking around too much.
But 3 is IMO let down at present, by releasing prematurely, and long term benefit decisions with short term costs
I'll claim that a large part of the problem is testing too late focus on fixing things too late in the cycle.
How can that be changed?
To me I'd like to be able to really use daily something in permanent beta mode. Downloading a test release, then installing, but not doing the main daily stuff on that box, tends to reduce what I can realistically use, to the things that are quick to set up and test.
Hi,
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Thursday 15 January 2009 19:41:50 Birger Kollstrand wrote:
I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers.
I really don't think that this is a problem at all. The contrary is true imho. This is what separates us from most of the other distros out there. You can _seriously_ use the distro on the desktop, the server, the laptop and use it for all kinds of use-cases without hacking around too much.
All work, all play makes openSUSE a zippy boy :)
Henne
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