Birger Kollstrand a écrit :

So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?

I have no clue about Novell strategy, but looking at what is available, we can have some ideas. Say... Just this morning I was fed of the problems I have with 11.1 and wondered if I was not to change to an other distro, so I looked around me. * I have a Mandriva cd (Mandriva One). But I see no online repositories and if I want more, say a dvd, I have to pay to have one. That said, they gives away CD by hundred. * I have a debian mini CD, but aptitude is not that handy. I have to know what package I want and then apt-get install do a tremendous work. Yet the mini cd do not recognise the network cards I have, so the install fails... even after install with the cd1, I still have problem to reconfigure any service (you have to know any part of debian to be able to make this at hand - what are the init levels in debian?) * I have an ubuntu cd. 8.04 LTS is very attractive. But I have yet to test it to see if I wont be down to aptitude very soon, no dvd and repositories are debians So may be I will try to move my 11.0 install to an other, bigger, partition. I have plenty of problems with the 11.1, but the only really blocking is the intel wifi driver not working, so I can't use it out of my house! given the 11.0 one works perfectly, it looks like a simple problem, but it's well know (many bug reports) and not yet solved. So what? openSUSE is largely the more friendly Linux distribution, with the most impressive number of incorporated packages, with all at hand, a very strong community (think of Packman!!) and the larger scope: one can make an openSUSE headless server, an openSUSE fancy desktop, whatever he wants, all with the same well known distribution. So what can Novell do better: lot of things, but the new bugzilla shows the bug solving problem is understood and the last openSUSE 11.1 box had stickers (and even a very handy diode light :-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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I would really like to know what went on with some of the changes in 11.1. Since 10.1 I was able to install my printer with ease of the printer configs but now it recognized my scanner but not the printer and they are both Canon MP530's all in one. On previous versions I was able to force in use of the MP500 printer driver on the OpenSUSE GUI but now all I get is errors and I cannot get pass the GUI. Well guess it is back to manual configs again but my complaint is why change something that worked before and now does not? I do not understand when they do things like this and the current printer configs are what I call a new users nightmare. Before one could click the model and look for the driver but now unless the user knows where it is he has to browse. How many new users would even know where to browse in the files? When I did find the MP500 driver in the cups-gutenprint folder the OpenSUSE program would not let me install it telling me it is the wrong driver when in fact it is not. I could not even force install it because OpenSUSE would not allow this. Now this would turn off a new user at the get go and that if he/she was able to get this far. Why the developers made a easy to use GUIand make it into something difficult is beyond me. This is another type of "well the user should be a geek and understand what to do". On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Eric Springer wrote:

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Birger Kollstrand wrote:

...

Hi,

I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.

Not much came of that unfortunately.

What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.

What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?

- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on - Connectivity of devices - Support for syncronizing devices - Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.

All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.

It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.

The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.

So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?

Kind regards,

Birger

I'm Interested in responses to this too. With every person I've shown openSUSE to they've had the same issues: problems understanding/navigating YaST and how it fits in with traditional tools. And how to find, install and update software. We don't even need more usability testing, we just need fixes. But on account of I have done nothing to help with this, I'll get off my soapbox. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- PeterPac www.InNetInvestigations-Forensic.com SuSE 10.2/SuSE 10.3/TriStar/Apache SuSE 11.1

2009/1/16 member greenarrow1 :

I would really like to know what went on with some of the changes in 11.1. Since 10.1 I was able to install my printer with ease of the printer configs but now it recognized my scanner but not the printer and they are both Canon MP530's all in one. On previous versions I was able to force in use of the MP500 printer driver on the OpenSUSE GUI but now all I get is errors and I cannot get pass the GUI. Well guess it is back to manual configs again but my complaint is why change something that worked before and now does not? I do not understand when they do things like this and the current printer configs are what I call a new users nightmare. Before one could click the model and look for the driver but now unless the user knows where it is he has to browse. How many new users would even know where to browse in the files? When I did find the MP500 driver in the cups-gutenprint folder the OpenSUSE program would not let me install it telling me it is the wrong driver when in fact it is not. I could not even force install it because OpenSUSE would not allow this. Now this would turn off a new user at the get go and that if he/she was able to get this far.

Why the developers made a easy to use GUIand make it into something difficult is beyond me. This is another type of "well the user should be a geek and understand what to do".

On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Eric Springer wrote:

...

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Birger Kollstrand wrote:

...

Hi,

I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.

Not much came of that unfortunately.

What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.

What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?

- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on - Connectivity of devices - Support for syncronizing devices - Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.

All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.

It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.

The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.

So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?

Kind regards,

Birger

I'm Interested in responses to this too. With every person I've shown openSUSE to they've had the same issues: problems understanding/navigating YaST and how it fits in with traditional tools. And how to find, install and update software. We don't even need more usability testing, we just need fixes. But on account of I have done nothing to help with this, I'll get off my soapbox. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Please don't hijac the thread with user support. There are other forums for that. Use bugzilla for problems on 11.1. Regards

Fredag 16 januar 2009 12:02:54 skrev Henne Vogelsang:

Birger Kollstrand wrote:

...

I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.

There is no such thing as Novell's point of view. Thats why you have a hard time getting that answer. Novell is a Company and asking about specifics like that is like asking about the hair color of Novell.

What you can get is the plans, goals and dreams of the individual People (including people from Novell) working on this Project formulated and consolidated in the Projects plans[0], goals[1] and dreams[2].

In short: You are asking for something that does not exists :)

[0] http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Product_Highlights [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles#We_want_to..._2

With openFATE becoming available, maybe the great mystery of what gets developer priority when and why will become a little less mysterious for us "outside" people. http://features.opensuse.org On the other hand, ignorance could be bliss. For example I'm not sure I'd really like to know about the decision making process that lead to the development of simple-ccsm-kde - can't be pretty ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Hi, Birger Kollstrand wrote:

2009/1/16 Henne Vogelsang :

...

Birger Kollstrand wrote:

...

I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view. There is no such thing as Novell's point of view. Thats why you have a hard time getting that answer. Novell is a Company and asking about specifics like that is like asking about the hair color of Novell.

What you can get is the plans, goals and dreams of the individual People (including people from Novell) working on this Project formulated and consolidated in the Projects plans[0], goals[1] and dreams[2].

In short: You are asking for something that does not exists :)

Ok :-)

But what about where do Novell want to put their development resources? What areas do Novell want to improve to get their professional product to a higher standard? The pro products are based upon the open product so some priorites are surly present?

Of course. But the tail(novell) does not wag the dog(opensuse). So its the openSUSE project that plans (in the just released openFATE) and then everyone, including the novell developers, execute. Of course also the SUSE Linux Enterprise people plan, so do most of the individual teams and these plans influence each other. As you see its not that easy and straightforward as you might think. There is no simple top-to-bottom command structure.

But it´s not so easy to influence the direction of the devlopment without being a developer.

Nothing is easy :) But it is for sure possible.

That´s understandable as most developers are doing what they want to do and not assigning their capabilities to the best of the overall project.

I am a developer and i can tell you that this is really not true. What makes you say that? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Birger Kollstrand wrote:

2009/1/16 Henne Vogelsang :

...

...

That´s understandable as most developers are doing what they want to do and not assigning their capabilities to the best of the overall project. I am a developer and i can tell you that this is really not true. What makes you say that?

10 years of open experience from source participation on user level. But please do not take it personally. I do not know every developer so this is my subjective leraning and does ofcourse not apply to everybody!

There is an overwhelming desire to create different implementations of the same problem. The lack of a project structure where users are asked for what they need and want. How many distros are thre, 200? There are at least 5 different medicentre veriosn, none which are easy to use. Constant reimplementation of desktop environments while stuff like syncing mobiles and handling media for mediaplayers is really bad. File systems en mass, how many controll centre SW in the distros, packaging formats, package managers (How many are supported/used in SUSE?)

And it´s not all negative that developers do this. More implementaions gives choice and people generally work best with stuff they like.

So I still believe that a set of use cases and a organized way to implement them would be good. (and maybe drop the focus on the next BIG THING in the DE´s).

openFATE looks interesting, but it does not seem to contain anything yet?

It does, for example see this link: https://features.opensuse.org/query/run?type=find&search_products[]=PROJ_00000455 to get a list of all planned features for 11.2. Greetings -- Thomas Schmidt (tschmidt [at] suse.de) SUSE Linux Products GmbH :: Research & Development :: Tools "Don't Panic", Douglas Adams (1952 - 11.05.2001) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

File systems en mass,

There are different filesystems for different purposes... And a multitude that servs the same. Ext3, Ext4, JFS , ZFS, btrfs, Reiser3/4, cluster fileystems, flash filesystems. I think it would be

2009/1/16 Cristian Rodríguez : possible to work together a bit more.

...

packaging formats,

So far, only RPM and DEB and widely used, that let us with only two..

and tar packaged files. An also I was not totally precise there, i should have said packaging SW for linux. If a user finds a package, does it fit his distro?

...

package managers (How many are supported/used in SUSE?)

Only libzypp based package managers are supported in openSUSE, but others are provided for convenience..(or said otherwise, to allow people to shoot themselves in the foot gracefully :-) )

:-)

On Thursday 15 January 2009 19:41:50 Birger Kollstrand wrote:

Hi,

I tried my luck on the factory list with asking about the plans, goals and dreams :-) for the comming releases. Seen from Novell´s point of view.

Not much came of that unfortunately.

What I´m looking for is much more than which upgrade upgraded desktop environment is going in.

What use cases does Novell want to reach? What should the user be able to do with SUSE?

- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on - Connectivity of devices - Support for syncronizing devices - Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.

I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers. In practice the primary focus is on desktop but we distribute packages for the rest as well. openSUSE has different needs: * we use it as basis for our enterprise server and desktop products * we want to grow the openSUSE community openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;) Should we focus the distribution more? And what do to with the other use cases?

All the nice stuff that needs to be made with KDE this or that and Gnome what ever.

It would be really good if Novell can take a user stand and not a developer stand in the comming project. And with user , I´m thinking of the everyday user that does not even know what Linux is.

The most important thing is not which desktop environment version is available, but what an everyday user can do with it.

So pleeeeease somebody, enlighten me :-) Is there any strategy available?

Michl can give some more details here but is on vacation for the next days, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Friday 16 January 2009 21:41:08 Birger Kollstrand wrote:

2009/1/16 Andreas Jaeger :

...

On Thursday 15 January 2009 19:41:50 Birger Kollstrand wrote:

...

- Portability/Laptop/Nettbooks and so on - Connectivity of devices - Support for syncronizing devices - Home server setup, mediaserver, DNLA, UpnP, file , print and so on.

I think our problem is that we want to reach all of these at the same time. ;) openSUSE is a desktop distribution with server functionality that can be used by developers. In practice the primary focus is on desktop but we distribute packages for the rest as well.

Actually I find the server part the best. And that part is really good from my point of view. The desktop I find to much focused on the latest KDE version or the latest Gnome version. To do everything at the same time is not possible with high quality. Choices must be made just as the choice to drop KDE 3.5 down the line is sensible.

...

openSUSE has different needs: * we use it as basis for our enterprise server and desktop products * we want to grow the openSUSE community

openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)

:-) as always. :

...

Should we focus the distribution more?

Yes. I think it`s always a good idea to build brick by brick. Choose a strategy for focus areas per release.

...

And what do to with the other use cases?

Plan them for future attention and loving :-)

Ah, so you propose to focus openSUSE 11.2 on one specific topic and put lots of effort into that one while we do the rest as well and 11.3 on another one and that way add more features over time? We try to have a couple of high-level features for each release and we're way beyond discussing and finalizing them. :-( I have two meta-features that I find very important for openSUSE 11.2: * enabling participation in all areas: we have build openSUSE 11.2 completely for the first time in the openSUSE Build Service (OBS). But there are stil a couple of things that can only be done inside the Novell network and I'd like to have this changed * easier way to follow factory: Currently the factory distribution changes quite heavily and it's difficult to follow it since many packages need to be updated every time - and each package needs to be downloaded completely. So, we have to check how to reduce the number of packages to download and how to make them smaller (relevant features are #303532 and #305634), Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

10 years of open experience from source participation on user level.

You say it like 10 years flying in airliners would make a pilot of you... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/1/16 Andreas Jaeger :

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openSUSE is used by the community nowadays in all the different scenarios you mention above - and you'll surely find one vocal user for each of them. ;)

:-) as always. :

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Should we focus the distribution more?

Yes. I think it`s always a good idea to build brick by brick. Choose a strategy for focus areas per release.

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And what do to with the other use cases?

Plan them for future attention and loving :-)

Ah, so you propose to focus openSUSE 11.2 on one specific topic and put lots of effort into that one while we do the rest as well and 11.3 on another one and that way add more features over time? Well, one would be hard, but at least some areas and if possible work closely with upstream projects to help them get it into good shape. (And mabye in some way channel openSUSE resources to them?) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

Perhaps it's useful to think of 3 pillars of user base :

1 - distributing and stabilising, upstream software, developing inhouse projects

Agreed.

2 - stabilisation and development towards SLE (including ISV projects)

SLE and ISV projects don't sound very much like a key focus we ought to have here in the openSUSE context. I suggest to really focus on openSUSE.

3 - growing Linux market, with a reliable, easy to manage full featured Desktop

Agreed, except that we have never limited openSUSE to the desktop, and I wouldn't want to change that.

But 3 is IMO let down at present, by releasing prematurely, and long term benefit decisions with short term costs

I'll claim that a large part of the problem is testing too late focus on fixing things too late in the cycle. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2009-01-16T16:22:25, Birger Kollstrand wrote:

There is an overwhelming desire to create different implementations of the same problem.

This is an apparently necessary step before convergence can happen; the community tends to have the resources to explore many (subtly) different technical/social/organizational directions at once before converging. That is actually one of the strengths. Regards, Lars -- Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/1/19 Gerald Pfeifer :

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

Perhaps it's useful to think of 3 pillars of user base :

1 - distributing and stabilising, upstream software, developing inhouse projects

Agreed.

...

2 - stabilisation and development towards SLE (including ISV projects)

SLE and ISV projects don't sound very much like a key focus we ought to have here in the openSUSE context. I suggest to really focus on openSUSE.

The project does have to be useful to it's main sponsors, to disregard their interests is self defeating. Without that, why does openSUSE putt changes into the release that are known to break things in short/medium term? Stuff like PulseAudio breaking Flash & Skype, and enabling pata_* experimental libata IDE drivers cause things to break on installs, but some long term benefit is expected. Without widening the user base, progress would be slower. However category 2 is described, the point is there's some conflict with 3, the "Just Works" trying Linux out, who are mainly Desktop users. Whilst I know those quick categories are imperfect, and imprecise, there are aims that draw the poject in different directions. Being General Purpose is a strength, as expressed well: 2009/1/19 Henne Vogelsang :

I really don't think that this is a problem at all. The contrary is true imho. This is what separates us from most of the other distros out there. You can _seriously_ use the distro on the desktop, the server, the laptop and use it for all kinds of use-cases without hacking around too much.

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But 3 is IMO let down at present, by releasing prematurely, and long term benefit decisions with short term costs

I'll claim that a large part of the problem is testing too late focus on fixing things too late in the cycle.

How can that be changed? To me I'd like to be able to really use daily something in permanent beta mode. Downloading a test release, then installing, but not doing the main daily stuff on that box, tends to reduce what I can realistically use, to the things that are quick to set up and test. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org