Michal Hrusecky - 22:31 29.05.15 wrote: So I dug up the letter, we can discuss it and see where are places for improvements: Hi <username>, everybody is welcome to participate and get involved in the openSUSE project and we grant membership for those that have shown a continued and substantial contribution to the openSUSE project. Membership officials have rejected your application since that does not apply to you. We just found too little contribution and encourage you to get more involved with openSUSE and then apply again for membership. As a person new to openSUSE you might check the "How to Participate" which gives a variety of possibilities, http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate to start contributing. Or you join our bi-weekly project meeting to see what' going on, http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Meetings If you disagree with the decision, please send an email to membership-officials(a)opensuse.org You can start contributing to openSUSE right away, you do not need to become a recognized openSUSE member, Best Regards, Membership officials -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

jdd wrote: It's an IRC meeting, not in person. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

jdd wrote: Yeah. I'm also not sure if joining the project meeting is really going to show anyone "what's going on". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Michal Hrusecky wrote: This does sound a little harsh. How about this instead: After having reviewed your application for membership, we regret to have to say that we don't think your contributions are currently sufficient to warrant openSUSE membership. We suggest you get more involved with the project and the communities, then we would welcome your renewed application at a later time. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 05/29/2015 04:53 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote: Lots of room for improvement, my suggestion """" Hi <username>, Thank you for your contributions so far to the openSUSE Project. All contributions are important and valued. After review of your application for membership, we were unable to verify a contribution level that would warrant us to accept your application at this time. However, this does not preclude you from applying again in the future after you have had a chance to be more involved with the openSUSE projec t. If you need additional information about how to get involved the following might be a good starting point http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate. We are looking forward to seeing additional contributions from you and hope that after some time of continued substantial contributions you will re-apply to become an openSUSE member. If you feel your contributions meet the definition for membership and we were just not able to find your contributions please e-mail us at membership-officials at opensuse dot org Regards, Memebrship team """" Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei(a)suse.com IRC: robjo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Monday 2015-06-01 21:21, Greg Freemyer wrote: Which is not quite true, either. - That is to say I am of the opinion that my involvement _is_ having an effect on openSUSE, even without registration. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On 02.06.2015 13:30, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: No, please do not start thinking about a definition now ;-) Rather the other way around: Do we _really_ have a problem with too many (even inactive) members? I guess not. So why decline _at_all_? Is it that we need to protect our nice club here? Yes, we can drop out obvious cheaters (I am sure the board is able to judge that) but all (how many?) the others? If they're interested, just let them in. Somebody who does not contribute today, can do tomorrow! Exactly. Rather discuss a letter such as "We have seen you being active so much in openSUSE recently, how about you become an openSUSE member to help us making the right decisions?". Or just do some work :o) Thanks, klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/02/2015 08:24 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote: As Henne points out, the board election is probably the component where the inactivity is the most glaring. For members there are some "perks", one of which is to be able to vote for and the other is to be elected to the openSUSE Board. So if we have 500 members (numbers are made up because I was too lazy to look them up ;) ) and 125 vote during board elections what does that say about the other 375? - - Are they no longer active? - - Are they active contributors but do not care about the board and thus our project governance? - - ..... One can probably have a very long list of questions about this state. This happens to be the state we are in, and thus to answer the question. Yes, inactive members are an issue. The same problem manifests itself for oSC. If we have 500 members and we cannot motivate at least 1/2 of the membership to get their butts off the couch and show up at oSC what does that mean? Maybe it means that the membership number is inflated and of the 500 that are "members" only 100 or so really care and of those 100 we get 50 showing up at oSC. Then we have 50% of members who care show up and that's not a bad number. Problem is we do not know. It goes back to the discussion we had a couple of years ago, and I still have the same opinion. Those that are active in the project should determine the direction and should have more input than those who were active in the past but are no longer active. This does not imply that the contributions of those that are no longer active should be ignored, give credit where credit is due, but as far as the current status the distinction between active and inactive members is quite important. I'd say "protection" is not quite the way to think about it as there is nothing really to protect. However, it is about the direction of the project and the governance model, and maybe that requires "protection" ;) . At some point it was decided that an elected board would guide the governance of the project. This decision has consequences, as in limit the number of people that can be elected and that can vote to a certain pool. To establish this pool of people a membership model is a reasonable choice. From this, one can reasonably conclude that some kind of "proof that I care" entry gate to the membership is a reasonable approach. For many organizations "proof that I care" comes from people's (member's) wallets, i.e. you pay and your in. For openSUSE, "proof that I care" means "sustained and substantial contributions". I would claim that the latter is a much better indicator of "proof that I care" than the former. However, the later is much more difficult to keep current. In the "pay for proof" model it is easy, when a member doesn't pay the dues on time they are out as the member "obviously" no longer cares, the wallet as sitting a bit too tight ;) . The problem with the "contribution model as proof" chosen by openSUSE is that because people have to make personal investment, i.e. give something that is much more valuable than money, it is much harder for people to let go. Therefore, the topic of inactivity and possibly "loosing" membership is much more sensitive than in the "pay for membership" model. **** Excursion **** As people we over value our contributions/investments. Think about the value people place on a bicycle they bought pre-assembled vs. the bicycle that came in a box with "some assembly required" instructions. Even if both bikes cost the same and they look the same, the person that assembled their bike will place a much higher value on that bike than the person that "just" bought it. **** End Excursion **** Anyway, the chosen model of membership does not appear to be a deterrent to people joining the community and contributing to the project, IMHO. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei(a)suse.com IRC: robjo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert wrote: Probably the latter. We certainly can't assume "not voting" = "not active". I was wondering about the meaning of "inactive" when jdd first started the thread last week. Do we have a way of determining who or how many are "inactive"? Maybe it just means that attending oSC is a low priority for many. I know it is for me. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.0°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 03/06/2015 14:54, Robert Schweikert a écrit : it's an other thread. I wont let this unanswered, but not here, thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-02 17:51, Joel Gordon wrote: No, it is not. The only valid measurement in democracy is statistical: you can not register who votes or not, because choosing whether to vote is also a vote decision that deserves secrecy, same as the actual vote (notice result counts for blank votes, etc). There is a registry used to ensure that people only vote once. But making use of that information for something else is akin to using information about who voted whom. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/03/2015 01:42 AM, Michal Kubecek wrote: Yes, travel expenses need to be taken into consideration. However, the TSP is there to help. While I do not have the hard numbers handy, my gut feel tells me that we do not get overwhelmed by TSP applications and in the end we have money left over. Fair enough, that of course raises the question if we should continue with oSC. Considering that it is a lot of effort for volunteers to pull the conference together. If members and contributors cannot be bothered to show up to our own conference then maybe we should not undertake the endeavour past oSC16. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei(a)suse.com IRC: robjo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

jdd wrote: I have to agree - maybe Robert was feeling a bit frustrated. I"m sure he didn't mean to say "If members and contributors cannot be bothered to show up to our own conference". Yep. That might be more of a topic for a user group meeting, not the openSUSE conference (for members and contributors). I think Cornelius Schumacher is right - just open memberhip to everyone on the assumption they will contribute sooner or later. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

* Robert Schweikert &lt;rjschwei(a)suse.com&gt; [06-03-15 08:54]: [...] While certainly deserving consideration, this is quite a leap. Traveling thousands of miles/kilometers to attend a conference of most any nature must be quite down the ladder for anyone whose employement is not dependent upon or who has excess funds, even with subsidized travel. Family, home and community have to remain a greater concern. Continuation of oSC should be weighed on the interest it generates rather than the number of members and contributers who "can be bothered" to attend. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 04/06/2015 22:42, Stefan Seyfried a écrit : are many people like you? I'm retired, so the day is of little interest, but if lot of people are like you it could be possible to alternate one year on week end, the other on week days? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Wednesday, June 03, 2015 08:51:50 AM Robert Schweikert wrote: TSP is actually a great program, that i used to attend oSC14, but due to the way it works, it wasn't useful to me to attend this year, even though I was approved.

On 2 June 2015 at 12:30, Cornelius Schumacher &lt;cschum(a)suse.de&gt; wrote: It would be, but in order to be able to encompass the full range of potential contributions, including technical, community, support and everything else, we are left with the definition decided a very long time ago "Sustained and Substantial", which is obviously somewhat subjective. The purpose of the Membership commitee is not to *judge* peoples contributions, but to *validate* the claimed contributions in the application for Membership The most common reason for the template email we're discussing being sent out is because in many, many, many (way too many cases) people are applying to be a Member with either NO contributions in their application (despite the instructions on https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Members) or, also sadly very common, are applications promising to contribute if they become members, which is totally the wrong way around Contribute first, then you become a Member Anyone can be part of the community, anyone can contribute, without any committee, or anyone else giving anyone any permission to do so. 'Membership' in the openSUSE sense is about having proven a long term commitment to the openSUSE project, which makes you eligible to vote in major decisions by the Project, and have an openSUSE email address.. that's all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Tuesday 02 June 2015 14:16:33 Henne Vogelsang wrote: I want people who want to contribute feel welcome, even if they haven't done anything yet. I'm pretty sure that is a good idea. I want the board to be elected by people who express that they want to be part of the community. I want it to be a representation of the people who feel part of the community. I'm pretty sure that is a good idea as well. I want to operate from a point of view that people mean well when they want to join openSUSE and optimize for getting new contributors on board, not for protecting against potential abuse. I'm pretty sure that this also is a good idea for an open community like openSUSE is. There is confusion. As Richard said, too many people are applying as members under wrong assumptions. The fact that we need rejection mails, membership committees validating contributions, Wiki pages with red warnings, etc. shows that there is an issue with becoming part of openSUSE. The big problem is that we will never hear from those people who didn't even try to become part because they were discouraged by how we handle this. We lose these people without even knowing about them. So to live up to our expectations as open community, to remove a barrier in becoming a contributor, to encourage people to join us, we could get rid of the validation and rejection step and just let everybody become a member who wants to. This way the board would be the representative of all self-proclaimed members of the openSUSE community, which I think is exactly what it should be. The work would still be done by those who are active. The decisions would still be taken by those who do the work. We still would have protection mechanisms like the veto power of the chairman of the board or the guiding principles. But we would have a more open, more welcoming, more inclusive community. That's what I would really like to see. -- Cornelius Schumacher &lt;cschum(a)suse.de&gt; -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 03/06/2015 15:25, jdd a écrit : we could also let the demand stay and send the letter before giving the answer... there is provision for this in the interface jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert wrote: Ah, but that's not what Cornelius said - we should and we do expect members to contribute, but it doesn't have to be an absolute criteria for becoming a member, just as it isn't a criteria for remaining a member. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On 03.06.2015 15:32, Robert Schweikert wrote: But the general population on the internet is not at all interested in openSUSE. If it was, yes, why not let them vote? Filling out the application means "I am interested in openSUSE and wanna work on and with it" - and that makes the difference... We are not in the danger that Fedora or Ubuntu will swarm over us and vote their buddy into the board. We are rather in the danger of having very few being interested in openSUSE any more, and thus we should follow Cornelius' wise advice IMO, to simplify and open up. Klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On 06/03/2015 07:40 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote: There is the only thing I will say about this. I will neither defend nor debate beyond this post. The history speaks for itself. openSUSE is already autocratic. This wasn't a bad thing when the code quality was high and ecosystem was rich and alive. The autocracy kept it that way. It no longer is and has been declining for some time. The origin of Linux itself is defined by an equally autocratic project. Had it not been so insular Linus might have put his efforts into that. The doors were closed to him so he went on to put his energy into creating this new thing. The lesson of history is plain. Learn from it or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 03/06/2015 19:07, Robert Schweikert a écrit : right, may be this have to be made more clear it's the official rule but AFAIK nobody yet do care of this (it's partly what I began to do in the other thread) I'm pretty pleased by the way this discussion runs, we are discussing the core of the problem. There no need to change all, but neither need to keep all... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Or even something as simple as “openSUSE Member” and “openSUSE Voting Member” which would have the privileges attached to it. I know that we might be “splitting hairs” for many, but it is a possibility at least to have a “membership” level for anyone to feel a part of the community while still keeping decision-making held within the contributors. Sincerely, Bob Martens > On Jun 3, 2015, at 5:40 PM, PatrickD Garvey &lt;patrickdgarveyt(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:07 AM, Robert Schweikert &lt;rjschwei(a)suse.com&gt; wrote: >> On 06/03/2015 10:00 AM, Klaas Freitag wrote: >>> On 03.06.2015 15:32, Robert Schweikert wrote: >>>> On 06/03/2015 09:04 AM, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: >>>>> On Tuesday 02 June 2015 14:16:33 Henne Vogelsang wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> So you want people who never have done anything "continued >>>>>> and substantial" to our project to join the body that elects >>>>>> our board? I'm pretty sure that this isn't a good idea :-) >>>> >>>>> I want people who want to contribute feel welcome, even if >>>>> they haven't done anything yet. I'm pretty sure that is a good >>>>> idea. >>>> >>>>> I want the board to be elected by people who express that they >>>>> want to be part of the community. I want it to be a >>>>> representation of the people who feel part of the community. >>>>> I'm pretty sure that is a good idea as well. >>>> >>>>> I want to operate from a point of view that people mean well >>>>> when they want to join openSUSE and optimize for getting new >>>>> contributors on board, not for protecting against potential >>>>> abuse. I'm pretty sure that this also is a good idea for an >>>>> open community like openSUSE is. >>>> >>>>>> Please don't confuse being part of the openSUSE project with >>>>>> being a "openSUSE Member". >>>> >>>>> There is confusion. As Richard said, too many people are >>>>> applying as members under wrong assumptions. The fact that we >>>>> need rejection mails, membership committees validating >>>>> contributions, Wiki pages with red warnings, etc. shows that >>>>> there is an issue with becoming part of openSUSE. >>>> >>>>> The big problem is that we will never hear from those people >>>>> who didn't even try to become part because they were >>>>> discouraged by how we handle this. We lose these people without >>>>> even knowing about them. >>>> >>>>> So to live up to our expectations as open community, to remove >>>>> a barrier in becoming a contributor, to encourage people to >>>>> join us, we could get rid of the validation and rejection step >>>>> and just let everybody become a member who wants to. >>>> >>>>> This way the board would be the representative of all >>>>> self-proclaimed members of the openSUSE community, which I >>>>> think is exactly what it should be. >>>> >>>>> The work would still be done by those who are active. The >>>>> decisions would still be taken by those who do the work. We >>>>> still would have protection mechanisms like the veto power of >>>>> the chairman of the board or the guiding principles. >>>> >>>>> But we would have a more open, more welcoming, more inclusive >>>>> community. That's what I would really like to see. >>>> >>>> >>>> Then why bother having membership at all? >>>> >>>> If everyone who wants to be a member gets to be a member just >>>> for filling out the application then we might as well not have >>>> it. The board can then be elected by the general population on >>>> the internet and everyone can run. >>> >>> But the general population on the internet is not at all interested >>> in openSUSE. If it was, yes, why not let them vote? Filling out >>> the application means "I am interested in openSUSE and wanna work >>> on and with it" - and that makes the difference... >>> >>> We are not in the danger that Fedora or Ubuntu will swarm over us >>> and vote their buddy into the board. We are rather in the danger of >>> having very few being interested in openSUSE any more, and thus we >>> should follow Cornelius' wise advice IMO, to simplify and open up. >> >> The debate is really misplaced. It has become so simple to contribute >> to openSUSE that I proclaim the endless possibilities to contribute >> are over whelming and scare people off. >> >> A "non-member" contributor has just as many possibilities to >> contribute and help out as the "member" contributor. The term "member" >> is a more or less logical consequence of our governance model of the >> project with an elected board. Somehow the pool of people that vote >> needs to be defined. A "anyone who is interested" on election day >> model is probably not the best approach. Those interested on election >> day will not be involved in the project long enough to notice the >> effects of their decision. >> >> Again, if the messaging is the problem, which is what jdd originally >> started out with, lets fix the messaging, lets fix the member page, >> lets fix the membership such that we have members that actually still >> contribute on a more or less regular basis. Those that are members but >> no longer contribute should be recognized for their past >> contributions, but should not necessarily continue to be able to vote >> or have @opensuse.org e-mail addresses. Lets fix the confusion about >> what being a member means. If people really think one has to be a >> member to contribute lets get that addressed and set the record straight >> . >> >> Later, >> Robert > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org > To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org > -- This electronic communication, including any attached documents, may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information that is intended only for use by the recipient(s) named above. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the communication and any attachments. Views expressed by the author do not necessarily represent those of Martin Luther College. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-06-04 14:40, Robert Schweikert wrote: The first one does not currently get an @opensuse.org e-mail. Do we want to? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 04/06/2015 14:40, Robert Schweikert a écrit : searching for synonyms, I could find: "representative" or "senior members" jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 04/06/2015 00:40, PatrickD Garvey a écrit : we had an extensive discussion on the subject when creating the membership process, but didn't find a really good wording but I don't think these demands to be member as bad, on the contrary, these people are probably of good will and have to be kept connected on some way... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 09:32:11 -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: I don't get the sense that that's what Cornelius is proposing or suggesting. It's a question of approach - rather than a page that lists a bunch of warnings about what not to do, have a page that lists a bunch of things that you *need to do* or *should do* in order to be a project member. In a way, you could say it's about a 'marketing spin' - provide a positive message that says the same thing, rather than a negative message that pushes people away. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 12:42:41 -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: It seems that that's what the discussion is about - trying to fix the page, but not doing so unilaterally - instead, asking the community for input, which has led to a discussion about the membership stuff in general. I don't see this as a bad thing - it's easier for people to know they're making a contribution that's deemed "worthwhile enough to be admitted as a member" if the guidelines are pretty clear. When I applied for my membership, I wasn't sure if just answering questions in the forums was sufficient or would be seen as being sufficient - but that was the extent of my ongoing contribution at the time. As the person making the contribution, I felt it was sufficient, but in a matter like this, my opinion wouldn't matter - the opinion of the person reviewing the contribution is the opinion that matters. Personally, I would like to see potential Members (with voting privileges) to not be as likely to feel uncertain about how their contributions will be judged. I think there has to be a measurement made, and such a measurement is going to be - by its nature - somewhat subjective, and there's an element of 'fit' that is bound to be applied when it comes to personalities, too. On the one hand, being proactive in some cases would be a good thing - instead of waiting for someone contributing to apply for membership, recognizing the contribution and inviting them to apply would be a good thing - and in some cases, such an invitation is really a no-brainer. But there also has to be a mechanism for people to let the project know how they're contributing to the project. Which, of course, is why we have a process for doing that. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/03/2015 11:22 PM, Jim Henderson wrote: Fair enough, but someone still has to act and do something. We can talk about how "nice it would be to fix the wiki" until we are all tiered and irritated. Thus in the hopes to end the beating around the bush inactivity, I removed most of the "Red" that appeared to be an issue to some people and modified the introduction on the page. Plus some other changes. I left 1 warning (red), which was added by me, I think, a couple of years ago when we first had the discussion about maintaining the membership status. A similar discussion has been started by Michal, see the "openSUSE Members retirement" thread. We can fix this part of the page when that discussion concludes. So, head on over to https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Members to see if that goes in the right direction and if you think its worse than previously, oh well, everyone had a chance to start with the change s. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei(a)suse.com IRC: robjo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:11:46 -0400, Robert Schweikert wrote: Sure, eventually someone needs to change something. But how would the board feel if someone just went in and started changing stuff about project processes without any discussion at all? I (or anyone else) could just go start changing stuff, and maybe piss a bunch of people off in the process. Better to have some discussion *first* about what changes the project thinks are appropriate. This isn't something that's like patching a bug in a network driver. This is more like deciding that the entire network subsystem needs to be rewritten from scratch. Before doing that, you need to gather requirements. I'm happy to see what jdd and the others who are spending time working on it come up with. I'm also happy to provide input and feedback on the proposed changes (which is how I'm contributing to this). I'm not in a position to *own* the process, nor am I part of the membership team (nor do I have time to join another team). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:48:01 +0200, jdd wrote: Makes sense, though I can see how these categories would grow pretty substantially. For example, the dedicated forum staff (of which I'm a member) make a pretty sustained contribution to the project, not just in terms of helping people in the forums (which could well be a valid type of contribution itself even without being official "forum staff"), but also in terms of managing the forums - moderation of posts, dealing with problem forum members (there's that overloading again <g>), and so on. But there also comes (thinking out loud) the evaluation of the actual contribution in the forums. Someone who posts hundreds of messages that aren't helpful isn't as valuable as someone who posts 20 good answers. Measuring quality vs. quantity is a long-standing forum issue (not just for OSF, either - Kim, the guy who runs our sponsor's forums, has been dealing with that issue almost as long as I've known him.) There are also other forums out there, like forosuse.es for the Spanish-speaking audience, or alionet's French openSUSE forums). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:48:04 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: Through the use of reputation points, yes, to an extent - it's a peer based system. The trick is to manage people trying to game the system (which does happen). I'm not sure how Stackoverflow handles that. There are some controls in vBulletin (as I recall) to limit the number of reputation points you can assign. We also currently have the forum configured to not allow anyone who isn't staff to assign negative reputation, because personalities clash and that clouds the objectivity of a user who's angry about an answer they got (and we get that through cultural/language misunderstandings not infrequently - it's not common, but it does happen). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 10:28:27 +0200, jdd wrote: Another possibility would be to ask the people who are already in that venue about the contributions of the specific person. I don't think anyone on the forum staff would have a problem answering questions along those lines - "Hey, JohnDoe says that they contribute in the forums - what can you tell us about the manner of contribution that you see from them?" Same would hold for the wiki - the people who manage the wiki are probably in a good position to at least find out about specific user contributions. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Hey, On 03.06.2015 15:04, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: Me too :-) Me too :-) Me too, but I don't want it to be that black/white. I want to be open and still have see some degree of protection. Well-balanced. We could also simply make it more friendly right? This is what JDD initially wanted to do... Except in escalation between the people who do the work. Then it would be taken by (self-proclaimed) members who don't have to suffer the consequences. The veto power of the not-elected chairman is in no way protection of our community. I think in fact it is a risk. As risky as the sponsor owned trademark. Me too, just not at that cost. I would like to be more open, welcoming and inclusive without making Membership 'free'. I want openSUSE Members to be a 100% contributors. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/02/2015 07:30 AM, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Members But is not an exact science as in "x number of lines of code", "y number of packages", "z number of wiki pages translated". I'd say casting activity into exact "hard" accountable numbers would be a futile attempt. No one has to be a member. All contributors are recognized. Being a member just provides some "perks". For the most part, other than board elections all contributors are on equal footing. There is no distinction between members and non-members. As we have an elected board a definition of a group regarding who gets to run and who gets to vote is probably a reasonable approach. Having this pool boundless, i.e. everyone in the world that claims to contribute gets to vote or run for a board position is probably not practical. A membership model appears reasonable. Of course the membership model could be changed to a "pay for membership" model. This would require that we have some means to collect funds, another problem. Everyone can be part of the community, no one if forced to be a member. I think Jan pointed out that he is not a member but very much feels that he has influence on the project and where it is going. Thus, there is at least some evidence that the "membership" part is not much, if any of a deterrent. Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei(a)suse.com IRC: robjo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/03/2015 08:30 AM, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: You are welcome to fix it ;) - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei(a)suse.com IRC: robjo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

On 06/02/2015 01:30 PM, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: thanks Cornelius, this idea is welcomed to study for an "open community" (meaning study => not throwing immediately to trash just because it's a "different way to imagine community in the future" ... it cannot be changed in 5 minutes, but it's great to notice that "judging" & "open" do not match very well together. It would need a bit more exchange (according to me) and exploration on concrete situations (and testing). (then ... about 500 members, as Robert said : only around 120 voting or going to OSC ... meaning around 100 members being concerned or active ?) I would just ask a concrete question to jdd : 1. could you (as part of the "jury") give us the number of ppl asking to become members ? (for ex last year, or last month) 2. how much were accepted and refused => these answers would give an idea if the "problem to solve would be to motivate new contributors ?" - or "to not demotivate the .. ppl who asked to become members ?" for the last ... months) 3. I have no concrete informations, but we (for sure nearly all) know that in 2011, a lot of ppl did booths all around the planet (smile), with plushes, CD, fun etc... And we all know that it's no more that in 2015 ... that could be a question too ... resume : it's great to review the letter content, of course if it can be more open for the person who asked to become member - it's great if it means a first step on "re-youth openSUSE community" ... so to come back to Cornelius suggestion, it's exactly the question of opened or closed system (basic systemic principles) : if the community do not wish new members/contributors (ok you can be one without the other) then ... the community has to make it hard to be recognised as a member, if the community wish to include more members/contributors, then the community makes it more easy to join ... quality/quantity questions ... open/close ... it's a choice (that can change) ... ok ... if openSUSE community wish to have more "quality" contributors/members, than ok for an "hard way to get there" ... but then, the question would be : how big would be the plush I win ? (even if contributors are not paid, you cannot avoid the question like : do we say thank you ? do we recognise the work done ? do we give fun to members, why a contributor would join openSUSE rather than any other community ... as they all wish it too etc ...) enought ... thank you Cornelius - I appreciate ++ your way of suggesting new ideas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Le 04/06/2015 07:57, Françoise Wybrecht a écrit : I do not have these numbres, and don't know how to have them. right now there are 11 people asking to be a member, on which 4 didn't give any reason at al (No given contributions), and most do not have a wiki personal page. the membeship commity do have some tools at hand, very convenient to sacn the net and see who do what: http://dodin.org/owncloud/index.php/s/D9pdU6sIwPsml4q but this comity itself is not very active:-( We need on the beginning to clean it :-( - as they have to be at least 4 votes to accept or decline https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Membership_officials jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

Hello, Am Freitag, 29. Mai 2015 schrieb Michal Hrusecky: I assume you are thinking about the project meeting here. For those who didn't notice it: the project meeting changed from "every two weeks" to "on demand", see https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Project_meeting A more general pointer to IRC and the mailing lists might be helpful. Regards, Christian Boltz -- I'm ready to try this wonderfull new car with no engine nor wheels... [> houghi and jdd in opensuse-factory] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

self edit... At this time we have determined that your application does not meet the requirements. diff At this time we have determined that your application does not meet the contribution requirements. -----Original Message-----From: Joel Gordon &lt;jgordon(a)suse.com&gt; To: Michal Hrusecky &lt;michal(a)hrusecky.net&gt; Cc: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] letter to people not accepted to be a member Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 13:34:54 -0600 I have taken a moment to attempt to improve on the message. Obviously this is a rough draft, so please give any feedback. Hi <username>, Thank you for your interest in becoming an openSUSE member. We would like to preface by explaining the consequences of becoming a member. Membership allows contributors to participate in the governance of the openSUSE project. We wish to encourage that the project be governed by the community that participates in it's development and longevity. For this reason we have created a method to determine users qualifications. At this time we have determined that your application does not meet the requirements. We would like to encourage you to participate in the community and on the project. We look forward to receiving your application in the future. As a person new to openSUSE you might check the "How to Participate" which gives a variety of possibilities, http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate to start contributing. Or you join our bi-weekly project meeting to see what' going on, http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Meetings If you disagree with the decision, please send an email to membership-officials(a)opensuse.org You can start contributing to openSUSE right away, you do not need to become a recognized openSUSE member, Best Regards, Membership officials -----Original Message-----From: Michal Hrusecky &lt;michal(a)hrusecky.net&gt; To: opensuse-project(a)opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] letter to people not accepted to be a member Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 22:53:50 +0200 Michal Hrusecky - 22:31 29.05.15 wrote: So I dug up the letter, we can discuss it and see where are places for improvements: Hi <username>, everybody is welcome to participate and get involved in the openSUSE project and we grant membership for those that have shown a continued and substantial contribution to the openSUSE project. Membership officials have rejected your application since that does not apply to you. We just found too little contribution and encourage you to get more involved with openSUSE and then apply again for membership. As a person new to openSUSE you might check the "How to Participate" which gives a variety of possibilities, http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:How_to_participate to start contributing. Or you join our bi-weekly project meeting to see what' going on, http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Meetings If you disagree with the decision, please send an email to membership-officials(a)opensuse.org You can start contributing to openSUSE right away, you do not need to become a recognized openSUSE member, Best Regards, Membership officials

Le 02/06/2015 09:28, Klaas Freitag a écrit : yes Or is it no. for present members I have an other mail in dscussion (thread title: letter to non active openSUSE members), but obviously not the same one jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org