[opensuse-project] Bad reviews about 10.3 (was: Redirector issues)

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Pascal Bleser

9 Oct 2007 9 Oct '07

07:22

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 (cross-posting on purpose, see below) Adrian Schröter wrote:

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On Tuesday 09 October 2007 03:10:10 wrote Benji Weber: [...]

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Some of the mirrors are broken or under heavy load, but the redirector is still redirecting people to those mirrors. This coupled with the fact that the openSUSE installer now selects "use online repositories" by default (a good thing) means that many people are experiencing failed installations.

I would be happy, if you can name some ;)

[...]

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Quite a number of users have commented on this behaviour, I have experienced it myself with 2 installs already. It has also been mentioned in some reviews, contributing to overall bad reviews of 10.3.

Do you you have URLs ?

Lots, seriously. Gut feeling is that currently, there are even more bad reviews about 10.3 than 10.2 (which is quite surprising, given that 10.3 definitely hasn't got the package management issues 10.2 had). I think we should collect URLs to bad reviews somewhere (on the wiki ?) and comment them there, to try to identify what the most annoying problems were -- and whether it's just motivated by the usual "anti-Novell-because-it's-in-bed-with-MS" FUD from so-called journalists or whether they actually have a point. To me, many of the reviews are motivated by the hatred against Novell and you can feel the tone right from the start, they're just looking for things to criticize, but even in those, they may have a point with 2 or 3 things. Shall we discuss this on -project ? (already answered, I'm cross-posting) Oh, and getting rid of compiz would probably remove 50% of the problems people have with openSUSE 10.3 but.. ok, let's keep that for -project :) cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHCywwr3NMWliFcXcRAh9bAJ9w10oa41pbyQ9zwKCrLSLxKMVOagCfcqdE wTY7hngMyu2+SBIE/YvENDY= =GDwF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Adrian Schröter

9 Oct 9 Oct

07:36

On Tuesday 09 October 2007 09:22:24 wrote Pascal Bleser:

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Adrian Schröter wrote: ..

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Quite a number of users have commented on this behaviour, I have experienced it myself with 2 installs already. It has also been mentioned in some reviews, contributing to overall bad reviews of 10.3.

Do you you have URLs ?

Lots, seriously. Gut feeling is that currently, there are even more bad reviews about 10.3 than 10.2 (which is quite surprising, given that 10.3 definitely hasn't got the package management issues 10.2 had).

I think we should collect URLs to bad reviews somewhere (on the wiki ?) and comment them there, to try to identify what the most annoying problems were -- and whether it's just motivated by the usual "anti-Novell-because-it's-in-bed-with-MS" FUD from so-called journalists or whether they actually have a point. To me, many of the reviews are motivated by the hatred against Novell and you can feel the tone right from the start, they're just looking for things to criticize, but even in those, they may have a point with 2 or 3 things.

Shall we discuss this on -project ? (already answered, I'm cross-posting)

Oh, and getting rid of compiz would probably remove 50% of the problems people have with openSUSE 10.3 but.. ok, let's keep that for -project :)

IMHO, the best thing would be to collect the (reasonable) rants/problems on a wiki page with an additional link to the review. So we can easily see on the wiki page where we do have problems. Additional bugzilla entries might needed as well, depending on the problem. -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) email: adrian@suse.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Klaus Kaempf

07:50

New subject: [opensuse-project] Bad reviews about 10.3 (was: Redirector issues)

* Pascal Bleser [Oct 09. 2007 09:22]:

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Adrian Schröter wrote:

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Do you you have URLs ?

Lots, seriously. Gut feeling is that currently, there are even more bad reviews about 10.3 than 10.2 (which is quite surprising, given that 10.3 definitely hasn't got the package management issues 10.2 had).

I think we should collect URLs to bad reviews somewhere (on the wiki ?) and comment them there, to try to identify what the most annoying problems were

A wonderful suggestion ! I have just created a wiki page to collect review links and comments, see http://en.opensuse.org/Reviews/10_3/Comments (linked from http://en.opensuse.org/Reviews#openSUSE_10.3) Please add further links to reviews. The issues named in bad reviews should be commented and linked to a 'planning' document, listing the changes planned. Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

08:25

On Tuesday 09 October 2007 02:22:24 am Pascal Bleser wrote:

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(cross-posting on purpose, see below)

Adrian Schröter wrote:

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On Tuesday 09 October 2007 03:10:10 wrote Benji Weber:

[...]

...
...
Some of the mirrors are broken or under heavy load, but the redirector is still redirecting people to those mirrors. This coupled with the fact that the openSUSE installer now selects "use online repositories" by default (a good thing) means that many people are experiencing failed installations.

This is easy to remedy. Make basic installation from CD running and offer clear information that system would continue installation in background. Keep some panel with installation process information available and users will be happy. Throwing everything in installation when computer can't be used for anything else is not really good, and that happened with KDE CD because I didn't expected that CD will attempt to download DVD ;-) I updated yesterday running system without interrupting normal computer usage for a second. So openSUSE is capable of doing that, all it is needed is small readjustment of installation.

...

[...]

...
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Quite a number of users have commented on this behaviour, I have experienced it myself with 2 installs already. It has also been mentioned in some reviews, contributing to overall bad reviews of 10.3.

Do you you have URLs ?

Lots, seriously. Gut feeling is that currently, there are even more bad reviews about 10.3 than 10.2 (which is quite surprising, given that 10.3 definitely hasn't got the package management issues 10.2 had).

I should read a bit something else, not only mail and newsgroups. From what I read, there is few issues that doesn't affect large number of people, or that are not major issues.

...

I think we should collect URLs to bad reviews somewhere (on the wiki ?) and comment them there, to try to identify what the most annoying problems were -- and whether it's just motivated by the usual "anti-Novell-because-it's-in-bed-with-MS" FUD from so-called journalists or whether they actually have a point.

What is title of the wiki page Pascal?

...

To me, many of the reviews are motivated by the hatred against Novell and you can feel the tone right from the start, they're just looking for things to criticize, but even in those, they may have a point with 2 or 3 things.

Sure they are attempting to sound unbiased, and for that they need few issues that are real. Though, being unbiased, as we are (^_^), is easy to recognize real issues.

...

Shall we discuss this on -project ? (already answered, I'm cross-posting)

IMHO, wiki.

...

Oh, and getting rid of compiz would probably remove 50% of the problems people have with openSUSE 10.3 but.. ok, let's keep that for -project :)

cheers

You mean, getting rid of compiz problems? :-) Put more testing in it. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10 Oct 10 Oct

15:01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 03:25 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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This is easy to remedy. Make basic installation from CD running and offer clear information that system would continue installation in background. Keep some panel with installation process information available and users will be happy.

Throwing everything in installation when computer can't be used for anything else is not really good, and that happened with KDE CD because I didn't expected that CD will attempt to download DVD ;-)

Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose. Would that be possible/practical/good? :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHDOlktTMYHG2NR9URAjPLAJ0QbJqvrTZm991xIlL9FDRYhKohOQCfeFad 1Das8g35lNP0K+12odckPHE= =MkO/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

15:35

Am Mittwoch 10 Oktober 2007 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Would that be possible/practical/good? :-? Possible: yes, A hell lot of work: yes, too. Wanted: I don't know.

Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

17:35

On Wednesday 10 October 2007 10:35:31 am Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am Mittwoch 10 Oktober 2007 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Would that be possible/practical/good? :-?

Possible: yes, A hell lot of work: yes, too. Wanted: I don't know.

Can you give some details why it would be a lot of work. It seems that all (or the most) infrastructure is already present (zypper, download software) what is needed is some intermediate software that will allow user to turn computer off and on as needed, but not to interrupt installation. The idea is to have only minimum KDE or GNOME system and perform installation from that point. I did something similar when I was on dialup. Minimal text mode using miniiso, than minimal GUI from running text mode, than KDE base and dependencies, than the rest. This way I kept download size lower as I downloaded only software that I wanted, and in the same time kept network connection problems under control. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Stanislav Visnovsky

11 Oct 11 Oct

07:23

Dňa Wednesday 10 October 2007 19:35:11 Rajko M. ste napísal:

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On Wednesday 10 October 2007 10:35:31 am Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am Mittwoch 10 Oktober 2007 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Would that be possible/practical/good? :-?

Possible: yes, A hell lot of work: yes, too. Wanted: I don't know.

Can you give some details why it would be a lot of work. It seems that all (or the most) infrastructure is already present (zypper, download software) what is needed is some intermediate software that will allow user to turn computer off and on as needed, but not to interrupt installation.

The idea is to have only minimum KDE or GNOME system and perform installation from that point.

I did something similar when I was on dialup. Minimal text mode using miniiso, than minimal GUI from running text mode, than KDE base and dependencies, than the rest.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. Finish the install from the working desktop? How to make sure the desktop is really started? Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

09:22

On Thursday 11 October 2007 02:23:47 am Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:

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The idea is to have only minimum KDE or GNOME system and perform installation from that point.

I did something similar when I was on dialup. Minimal text mode using miniiso, than minimal GUI from running text mode, than KDE base and dependencies, than the rest.

I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve.

A) Make installation pleasant experience 1) for users that bought computer with preinstalled OS and are not used to spend hours installing some software, but they are familiar with windows update that runs in background 2) for users that have slow and not always reliable Internet connection - install minimum usable installation, which is GUI with browser, instant message and email client, and let them play with it. B) Use lesser bandwidth on both sides. With smaller basic system users will download lesser. Jigdo was good idea, but one has to have running system to be able to use it.

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Finish the install from the working desktop?

Yes. Installation of software takes time, and that is meant under "finish installation" not configuration of hardware and few essential system services. I described above my workaround for unreliable Internet connection, when I was on dialup. 1) I couldn't keep phone line busy whole day long, 2) I couldn't keep computer on while I wasn't at home.

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How to make sure the desktop is really started?

This is actually irrelevant. If GUI is in unusable state, it will be after 2 days or 2 hours of installation. Which one is easier to forget, and give another chance. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Francis Giannaros

10 Oct 10 Oct

15:50

On 10/10/07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 03:25 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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This is easy to remedy. Make basic installation from CD running and offer clear information that system would continue installation in background. Keep some panel with installation process information available and users will be happy.

Throwing everything in installation when computer can't be used for anything else is not really good, and that happened with KDE CD because I didn't expected that CD will attempt to download DVD ;-)

Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Yeah, though the most ideal situation is that it would do the *whole* installation while in the live session, and so that the first time you reboot you can go straight to your new installation. Certain other distros have this ;-) Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

16:30

On Wednesday 10 October 2007 10:50:20 am Francis Giannaros wrote:

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On 10/10/07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 03:25 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...
This is easy to remedy. Make basic installation from CD running and offer clear information that system would continue installation in background. Keep some panel with installation process information available and users will be happy.

Throwing everything in installation when computer can't be used for anything else is not really good, and that happened with KDE CD because I didn't expected that CD will attempt to download DVD ;-)

Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Yeah, though the most ideal situation is that it would do the *whole* installation while in the live session, and so that the first time you reboot you can go straight to your new installation. Certain other distros have this ;-)

Kind thoughts,

That is another approach, but you can't turn computer off with this approach until installation is done. With small installation it should be possible to turn computer off at will and next time you start it, installation will continue. This has little advantage for me with 5Mb/s, but with dialup is highly desirable option. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

16:23

On Wednesday 10 October 2007 10:01:55 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 03:25 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...
This is easy to remedy. Make basic installation from CD running and offer clear information that system would continue installation in background. Keep some panel with installation process information available and users will be happy.

Throwing everything in installation when computer can't be used for anything else is not really good, and that happened with KDE CD because I didn't expected that CD will attempt to download DVD ;-)

Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Would that be possible/practical/good? :-?

Possible: Yes. As I stated in another sentence I did a large update that was done without my help. All I had to do was to reboot computer to start using new kernel. Practical: Yes. All it takes is to warn user after basic installation that there is much more to see, present list to choose from, confirm whole list and start using what is available; already installed, or use YaST for detailed choices. The only add on would be report what is available, something like list what is installed by that moment that will be in a tray and user can click it to see is his favorite already installed. Good: Yes. Long boring installation will be replaced with something that takes 10-15 minutes on todays computers, and the rest will run in background, from CD, DVD or Internet. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

19:06

New subject: [opensuse-project] Bad reviews about 10.3 (was: Redirector issues)

On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 11:23 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

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On Wednesday 10 October 2007 10:01:55 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
The Tuesday 2007-10-09 at 03:25 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

...
This is easy to remedy. Make basic installation from CD running and offer clear information that system would continue installation in background. Keep some panel with installation process information available and users will be happy.

Throwing everything in installation when computer can't be used for anything else is not really good, and that happened with KDE CD because I didn't expected that CD will attempt to download DVD ;-)

Mmmm... now, that would be nice. Having the CD/DVD install all it can, reboot, then automatically continue downloading and installing everything else, but from the already running system. Or give the option to choose.

Would that be possible/practical/good? :-?

Possible: Yes. As I stated in another sentence I did a large update that was done without my help. All I had to do was to reboot computer to start using new kernel.

Practical: Yes. All it takes is to warn user after basic installation that there is much more to see, present list to choose from, confirm whole list and start using what is available; already installed, or use YaST for detailed choices. The only add on would be report what is available, something like list what is installed by that moment that will be in a tray and user can click it to see is his favorite already installed.

Good: Yes. Long boring installation will be replaced with something that takes 10-15 minutes on todays computers, and the rest will run in background, from CD, DVD or Internet.

I have installed "certain other" distro's from a live CD it was fast, I could still browse the Internet and the "package manager" had the default repo's already configured on reboot. With the current 1CD patterns as profiles adapted for kiwi's live CD process, it should just be a matter of automating a disk partition routine, copying the cd contents to the new disk partition, installing grub and modifying initrd. simply beautiful! leave the DVD for network administrators and custom installers. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District 213 S. Main st Newmarket NH, 03857 603-659-3271 *318 CNE 3,4,5 MCSE w2k CLE in training Registered Linux user #440182 http://en.opensuse.org/educationk --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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participants (9)

Adrian Schröter
Carlos E. R.
Francis Giannaros
James Tremblay
Klaus Kaempf
Pascal Bleser
Rajko M.
Stanislav Visnovsky
Stephan Kulow