[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] openSUSE Leap's Next Major Version Number
On 24 April 2017 at 07:16, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
There are only a few packages in our distribution that reference the 42.x versioning, and they should be easily handled as part of a zypper dup, so we are not concerned about this decision impacting users upgrading.
This statement concerns me more than anything else. What about all the people who build solutions around openSUSE or for it? We *just* managed to figure out the new mess that is SUSE versioning, and now you want to break us again?
The number of conditionals I need for supporting the SUSE platform keeps growing with each release, and that's extremely aggravating.
Yes, I understand that, but one of the benefits of this change means you'll be able to get rid of some of those conditionals when Leap 42.3 reaches end of life, as opposed to needing to keep conditionals around for 4x.y forever -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-04-24 09:31, Richard Brown wrote:
On 24 April 2017 at 07:16, Neal Gompa <ngompa13@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 7:37 AM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:
There are only a few packages in our distribution that reference the 42.x versioning, and they should be easily handled as part of a zypper dup, so we are not concerned about this decision impacting users upgrading.
This statement concerns me more than anything else. What about all the people who build solutions around openSUSE or for it? We *just* managed to figure out the new mess that is SUSE versioning, and now you want to break us again?
The number of conditionals I need for supporting the SUSE platform keeps growing with each release, and that's extremely aggravating.
Yes, I understand that, but one of the benefits of this change means you'll be able to get rid of some of those conditionals when Leap 42.3 reaches end of life, as opposed to needing to keep conditionals around for 4x.y forever
No, externals have to consider old versions for many years. There are people still using 10.3, for instance. Some one might try to install Chrome on 42.3 and the script think it is more recent than 18.2 -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 24 April 2017 at 13:08, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Yes, I understand that, but one of the benefits of this change means you'll be able to get rid of some of those conditionals when Leap 42.3 reaches end of life, as opposed to needing to keep conditionals around for 4x.y forever
No, externals have to consider old versions for many years. There are people still using 10.3, for instance. Some one might try to install Chrome on 42.3 and the script think it is more recent than 18.2
Um, nope. The whole point of having a clear support lifecycle is to manage and mitigate the long term implications of what the Project has to support. It also exists to set the expectations of the people using our distributions so they can make reasonable decisions as to their use of the distributions. Of course people can go and choose to ignore that and use stuff that is unsupported. But that's the point, it's unsupported. There is no way the openSUSE Project should spend any time at all worrying about a version that has been long unsupported, like 10.3. It's a risk people should keep in mind when running unsupported versions. If Leap 15 is going to be a problem for Leap 42.x users after Leap 42.x is no longer supported, then they shouldn't run it when it's no longer supported. Or to put it another way - openSUSE will not support versions that are unsupported. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 24.04.2017 um 14:18 schrieb Richard Brown:
On 24 April 2017 at 13:08, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Yes, I understand that, but one of the benefits of this change means you'll be able to get rid of some of those conditionals when Leap 42.3 reaches end of life, as opposed to needing to keep conditionals around for 4x.y forever
No, externals have to consider old versions for many years. There are people still using 10.3, for instance. Some one might try to install Chrome on 42.3 and the script think it is more recent than 18.2
Um, nope.
The whole point of having a clear support lifecycle is to manage and mitigate the long term implications of what the Project has to support.
It also exists to set the expectations of the people using our distributions so they can make reasonable decisions as to their use of the distributions.
Of course people can go and choose to ignore that and use stuff that is unsupported. But that's the point, it's unsupported.
But do we need to deliberately forcefully break it? Linux Kernel hackers do this all the time. But hey, they are Linux Kernel hackers and they fix up must of the fallout. You are "The openSUSE Board". Quite a difference. Will be interesting who will be fixing the fallout. My guess is: not the board, or at least only to a very small degree.
Or to put it another way - openSUSE will not support versions that are unsupported.
And it will make huge efforts to ensure that they are deliberately broken. Sounds useful. So after asking this multiple times, without a response: why not use version 150 151 152 160 ... ? Can I get an answer from the board? Does the board have a snail mail address where I can send this question if I want it not to be ignored? -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Stefan, On 2 May 2017 at 18:45, Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 24.04.2017 um 14:18 schrieb Richard Brown:
On 24 April 2017 at 13:08, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
Yes, I understand that, but one of the benefits of this change means you'll be able to get rid of some of those conditionals when Leap 42.3 reaches end of life, as opposed to needing to keep conditionals around for 4x.y forever
No, externals have to consider old versions for many years. There are people still using 10.3, for instance. Some one might try to install Chrome on 42.3 and the script think it is more recent than 18.2
Um, nope.
The whole point of having a clear support lifecycle is to manage and mitigate the long term implications of what the Project has to support.
It also exists to set the expectations of the people using our distributions so they can make reasonable decisions as to their use of the distributions.
Of course people can go and choose to ignore that and use stuff that is unsupported. But that's the point, it's unsupported.
But do we need to deliberately forcefully break it?
Linux Kernel hackers do this all the time. But hey, they are Linux Kernel hackers and they fix up must of the fallout. You are "The openSUSE Board". Quite a difference.
Will be interesting who will be fixing the fallout.
My guess is: not the board, or at least only to a very small degree.
Or to put it another way - openSUSE will not support versions that are unsupported.
And it will make huge efforts to ensure that they are deliberately broken.
Sounds useful.
So after asking this multiple times, without a response: why not use version
150 151 152 160 ...
?
Can I get an answer from the board?
Does the board have a snail mail address where I can send this question if I want it not to be ignored?
Your suggestion was not ignored. We considered it, I also discussed it with Ludwig. Personally speaking, I feel it is a very nice suggestion, I do not have anything substantive to say against it besides "It is not my taste". I'm afraid to say that we will not be adopting it, but thank you kindly for your suggestion and all of your contributions. - Richard
-- Stefan Seyfried
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 2 May 2017 21:57 Richard Brown wrote:
Personally speaking, I feel it is a very nice suggestion, I do not have anything substantive to say against it besides "It is not my taste". I'm afraid to say that we will not be adopting it, but thank you kindly for your suggestion and all of your contributions.
I sincerely hope you just didn't express yourself well or that there is some missing piece of information (like you having been voted over). Because the way you wrote it, it sounds as if Richard Brown's taste was more important than technical objections. And that would be very disturbing. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 4. Mai 2017, 07:23:33 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:
On Tuesday, 2 May 2017 21:57 Richard Brown wrote:
Personally speaking, I feel it is a very nice suggestion, I do not have anything substantive to say against it besides "It is not my taste". I'm afraid to say that we will not be adopting it, but thank you kindly for your suggestion and all of your contributions.
I sincerely hope you just didn't express yourself well or that there is some missing piece of information (like you having been voted over). Because the way you wrote it, it sounds as if Richard Brown's taste was more important than technical objections. And that would be very disturbing.
Rest assured that I'll complain very loud and visible if a single board member ever tries to "sell" his personal opinion as board decision ;-) That said: I agree with Richard on this - IMHO Leap 15.0 is a better choice than Leap 150 ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz -- Mein Name ist Ratti. Ich bin heute Abend hier hergekommen, weil ich ein Problem habe, über das ich gerne sprechen würde. Ich arbeite seit längerer Zeit mit Linux und habe noch niemals einen Kernel kompiliert. Ich schäme mich deswegen sehr. [Ratti in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 05/04/2017 12:22 PM, Christian Boltz wrote:
Rest assured that I'll complain very loud and visible if a single board member ever tries to "sell" his personal opinion as board decision ;-)
Thanks for the reassurance, Chris. I, for one, will be counting on you. ;-)
That said: I agree with Richard on this - IMHO Leap 15.0 is a better choice than Leap 150 ;-)
... and I agree with this decision, as well. (Though, not sure how much that counts, as I am just mini-peon.) :-D -- -Gerry Makaro aka Fraser_Bell on the forums, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 04 May 2017 07:23:33 +0200, Michal Kubecek wrote:
Because the way you wrote it, it sounds as if Richard Brown's taste was more important than technical objections. And that would be very disturbing.
He framed it as a "personal opinion", not as an "official position". I think he was very clear that he was expressing himself as an individual, not as the chair of the board. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, 5 May 2017 18:02 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 07:23:33 +0200, Michal Kubecek wrote:
Because the way you wrote it, it sounds as if Richard Brown's taste was more important than technical objections. And that would be very disturbing.
He framed it as a "personal opinion", not as an "official position". I think he was very clear that he was expressing himself as an individual, not as the chair of the board.
My problem with that e-mail is that Richard essentially said he had no technical objection, only the proposal wasn't to his taste. And then, without any explanation or further arguments, he says "we are not going to do it". So it sounds like either there is some big part missing or not being to Richard's taste is the reason for not doing it. Honestly, I don't really like version numbers like 150, and even less so if they are artificial and do not actually mean version 150. But the "leap back" board insists on is worse by an order of magnitude, that is not about taste, it's about elementary logic and breaking people's use cases. Being laughed upon is the smallest problem here. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Michal Kubecek schrieb:
On Friday, 5 May 2017 18:02 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2017 07:23:33 +0200, Michal Kubecek wrote:
Because the way you wrote it, it sounds as if Richard Brown's taste was more important than technical objections. And that would be very disturbing.
He framed it as a "personal opinion", not as an "official position". I think he was very clear that he was expressing himself as an individual, not as the chair of the board.
My problem with that e-mail is that Richard essentially said he had no technical objection, only the proposal wasn't to his taste. And then, without any explanation or further arguments, he says "we are not going to do it". So it sounds like either there is some big part missing or not being to Richard's taste is the reason for not doing it.
Richard's taste is not the reason for not doing it. It's me not doing it. We go for 15. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas Sent from my mobile device.
Em 9 de mai de 2017, às 04:10, Ludwig Nussel <ludwig.nussel@suse.de> escreveu:
Richard's taste is not the reason for not doing it. It's me not doing it. We go for 15.
As I said, the decision has already been made. Regards, Ronan-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/05/17 09:43 AM, Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas wrote:
-- Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas
Sent from my mobile device.
Em 9 de mai de 2017, às 04:10, Ludwig Nussel <ludwig.nussel@suse.de> escreveu:
Richard's taste is not the reason for not doing it. It's me not doing it. We go for 15.
As I said, the decision has already been made.
Regards, Ronan-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
+1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 09 May 2017 08:03:00 +0200, Michal Kubecek wrote:
My problem with that e-mail is that Richard essentially said he had no technical objection, only the proposal wasn't to his taste. And then, without any explanation or further arguments, he says "we are not going to do it". So it sounds like either there is some big part missing or not being to Richard's taste is the reason for not doing it.
That's only the case if you didn't see everything else around the decision - only if you read his message in a vacuum of information. Then I could see that interpretation. But his message wasn't in a vacuum of information - there's been a lot of explanation for why the change took place. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Fraser_Bell -
Jim Henderson -
Ludwig Nussel -
Michal Kubecek -
Richard Brown -
Roman Bysh -
Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas -
Stefan Seyfried