17 Nov
2014
17 Nov
'14
8:48 p.m.
Hi everyone,
I've been an intermittent user of SuSE and openSUSE for well over a
decade, starting back in the 6.x days if I remember correctly. I've
always admired the project for its professionalism and broad scope. I
recently switched back to openSUSE thanks to the rolling Factory (now
Tumbleweed) announcement, and I also have 13.2 installed on other
machines. I'm really enjoying the experience, and this time, I'd like to
stay.
I really want to see openSUSE succeed, but unfortunately I tend to see
it dismissed by potential new users as "a nice distro, but..." followed
by certain annoyances or "paper-cut" issues. This week's openSUSE 13.2
review on Distrowatch is the most recent example of such comments. I
feel that openSUSE is fundamentally extremely well designed and
executed, but I have also noticed the same recurring "paper-cut" issues
year after year, release after release. So I'm wondering if anything
could be done about them, or if the developers have any interest in
fixing them.
Without going into detail, here are a few general areas of concern that
I often hear and/or have personally noticed throughout many openSUSE
releases:
1. Ugly font rendering
2. Automatic installation of extraneous/unrequested packages, especially
after initial installation.
3. Crippled packages meant to prevent compatibility with proprietary
multimedia formats.
4. Difficult to install multimedia and/or proprietary formats and drivers.
5. Breakage of YaST modules.
All of the above issues do have workarounds, and think it would be best
for this thread to not get into the technical details of these
aforementioned issues. But in general terms, these issues come up time
after time in reviews and forum posts about openSUSE. So my question is:
Would the openSUSE project be interested in working to resolve any or
all of these issues? And if so, where would be the best place for me to
bring up these issues and work with developers to make improvements?
Some of the issues are not related to any one specific package, but are
rather of a more systemic nature. In some cases legal/patent issues are
probably involved. (Again, let's please avoid legal discussions in this
thread.) Although I am not a coder or developer *at all*, I do have an
eye for detail and polish, and I have a good idea of what typical users
expect out of a Linux distro on the desktop. I'd like to help to
identify and test solutions to these papercuts if any developers are
willing to look into some of these long-standing issues with a fresh eye.
Any comments? Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.
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17 Nov
17 Nov
8:59 p.m.
The easiest that can be done here is to propose possible solutions and
also involve our team at Factory that could take a closer look at the
technical aspects of this problem. For fonts, I have proposed in the
past switching to a different font family that could be more suited
for what we use in modern screens. I am not sure that we were able to
implement it. It mostly remained as an idea.
It might be possible also to have certain screen specific
configurations (font only discussion) but that is something that we
need to discuss with our factory team.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 12:48 PM, S. <sb56637(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I've been an intermittent user of SuSE and openSUSE for well over a decade,
starting back in the 6.x days if I remember correctly. I've always admired
the project for its professionalism and broad scope. I recently switched
back to openSUSE thanks to the rolling Factory (now Tumbleweed)
announcement, and I also have 13.2 installed on other machines. I'm really
enjoying the experience, and this time, I'd like to stay.
I really want to see openSUSE succeed, but unfortunately I tend to see it
dismissed by potential new users as "a nice distro, but..." followed by
certain annoyances or "paper-cut" issues. This week's openSUSE 13.2 review
on Distrowatch is the most recent example of such comments. I feel that
openSUSE is fundamentally extremely well designed and executed, but I have
also noticed the same recurring "paper-cut" issues year after year, release
after release. So I'm wondering if anything could be done about them, or if
the developers have any interest in fixing them.
Without going into detail, here are a few general areas of concern that I
often hear and/or have personally noticed throughout many openSUSE releases:
1. Ugly font rendering
2. Automatic installation of extraneous/unrequested packages, especially
after initial installation.
3. Crippled packages meant to prevent compatibility with proprietary
multimedia formats.
4. Difficult to install multimedia and/or proprietary formats and drivers.
5. Breakage of YaST modules.
All of the above issues do have workarounds, and think it would be best for
this thread to not get into the technical details of these aforementioned
issues. But in general terms, these issues come up time after time in
reviews and forum posts about openSUSE. So my question is: Would the
openSUSE project be interested in working to resolve any or all of these
issues? And if so, where would be the best place for me to bring up these
issues and work with developers to make improvements? Some of the issues are
not related to any one specific package, but are rather of a more systemic
nature. In some cases legal/patent issues are probably involved. (Again,
let's please avoid legal discussions in this thread.) Although I am not a
coder or developer *at all*, I do have an eye for detail and polish, and I
have a good idea of what typical users expect out of a Linux distro on the
desktop. I'd like to help to identify and test solutions to these papercuts
if any developers are willing to look into some of these long-standing
issues with a fresh eye.
Any comments? Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.
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Andy (anditosan)
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9:04 p.m.
Thanks for the reply, Andy. So create threads about specific issues at
the opensuse-factory list?
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9:15 p.m.
Thanks for the reply, MH. I'm very well aware of the legal issues
related to proprietary formats. But I don't think this list is the right
place to discuss specific legal/patent issues? Or is it?
In general, most big, international Linux distros also don't pay any
software licensing fees and therefore they also don't distribute
proprietary software. But they do make it considerably easier than
openSUSE does to install such software when the user needs/wants it. In
some cases, considerably better defaults could be configured using the
available open source software that could help some users to not recur
to a proprietary/licensed alternative.
Here's the Distrowatch review:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141117#feature
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18 Nov
18 Nov
9:05 a.m.
Le 17/11/2014 21:15, S. a écrit :
In general, most big, international Linux distros also
don't pay any
software licensing fees and therefore they also don't distribute
proprietary software. But they do make it considerably easier than
openSUSE does to install such software when the user needs/wants it. In
some cases, considerably better defaults could be configured using the
available open source software that could help some users to not recur
to a proprietary/licensed alternative.
could you describe such config?
apart Canonical (ubuntu) that build itself in Man Island?
thanks
jdd
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19 Nov
19 Nov
12:43 a.m.
Thanks to everyone for their replies!
Roger Luedecke wrote:
the font rendering issue is being worked on actually
and should be
fixed in an update soon.
Great to hear this! What does the fix involve?
I'm aware that the subpixel rendering used by the Infinality project
(arguable the best font rendering available for Linux) is
patent-encumbered, but in my experience Arch has fonts that are *almost*
as good as Infinality, and I'm pretty sure they don't use anything
patent-encumbered. In my experience, the DejaVu Sans fonts with "slight"
hinting and RGBA antialiasing look pretty nice, even with the default
openSUSE fontconfig. So that's an example where considerable improvement
could be made in the default openSUSE settings, even within the confines
of purely open source solutions.
Roger Luedecke wrote:
As for installing proprietary drivers, I'm not
sure how much easier we
could really make it.
Well, I do think that the Ubuntu Restricted Drivers tool is pretty
fantastic. The reason is that most newish Linux users aren't really
aware of the existence of libre/proprietary drivers, they just want
their hardware to work. Many users aren't even all that sure about what
sort of hardware they have, and it gets even more complicated with
dual-graphics Intel/Nvidia Prime systems. So it requires more than a
little bit of manual investigation to get certain hardware pieces
working. The users has to find the hardware device in the YaST hardware
tool, and then has to Google around to figure out what the names are of
the drivers that correspond to the hardware, then they have to find the
openSUSE package name as well as the repo that contains it. Sometimes
there are libre drivers that work to a certain extent, but some users
require the more complete functionality of a proprietary driver. Yes,
it's not *terribly* difficult, and us seasoned Linux users can do it
with our eyes closed, but I think that a lot of openSUSE users aren't
interested in learning about their system-- they just want it to work
correctly. A tool like the Ubuntu Restricted Drivers does all the hard
work for the user, it tells them what pieces of hardware have an
available proprietary driver, which versions are available, and a
one-click button to enable it if desired.
Roger Luedecke wrote:
I don't know about our packages being crippled to
complicate using
codecs etc
The most concrete example I can remember off-hand is K3B. To rip MP3s
from an audio CD, it required LAME. But the openSUSE version of K3B was
not compiled with the flag that made it look for the LAME libs, and
therefore it couldn't use LAME even if it was installed.
Perhaps a more modern example are the gstreamer -bad and -ugly packages.
They are offered in the official openSUSE repos, but they don't seem to
actually contain any proprietary codec support, because even after
installing them I couldn't play MP3 or MP4 files.
I'm sure there's more examples of this sort of crippling of openSUSE
packages, but these are some easy examples. Of course, us seasoned
openSUSE users know that it's just a matter of adding Packman, setting
its priority to a lower number to increase the priority (rather
counter-intuitive for beginners) and switching installed packages to the
Packman versions, then adding the gstreamer -bad and -ugly -addon
packages. But that process is long and convoluted compared to other distros.
I know that openSUSE can't offer proprietary codecs out of the box with
the ISOs, but would it be possible to add a YaST module called
"Proprietary Software Support" that offers a "Install proprietary codecs
from Packman" checkbox that runs a simple script to do the whole process
I described in the previous paragraph?
Roger Luedecke wrote:
We need an integrated 'command-center' for the
project so that
communication will be more transparent and issues can be tracked
in order to avoid regressions.
I see. Meanwhile until that gets implemented, would Bugzilla reports of
these individual issues I mentioned be sufficient?
jdd wrote:
so, the good way now should be to enable packman, give
it some
lower number as priorité, go to yast software, *repositories view*
and call for software from there. A bit complicated.
My thoughts exactly. I think that if openSUSE can offer a wiki page to
do this whole process manually, it should be possible to add a YaST
module and script to do the same thing, still pulling from Packman and
thus avoiding hosting proprietary software on openSUSE's repos.
Lars Müller wrote:
Has one of you thought about filing bug reports for
the individual
issues and create one meta bug which references all these reports?
I can do that, I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be too vague to
report some of these issues that don't relate to a specific package.
Regarding my #2 issue "Automatic installation of extraneous/unrequested
packages, especially after initial installation":
I think that there should be a prompt or something when using YaST
Software for the first time, asking users if they want the resolver to
#1) install recommends for already installed packages, and/or #2 install
recommends for future installed packages. Additionally, I think that
there should be a YaST Software option to enable/disable installation of
recommends for future installed packages-- currently the option is only
available for previously installed packages' recommends. Of course it is
possible to adjust the /etc/zypp/zypp.conf option to not install
recommends, which is obeyed by YaST, but I think a simple GUI checkbox
would be better.
Also, I think that adding a YaST module with checkboxes for installing
common stuff like Flash and openJDK would be better than using the
update mechanism with packages like "pullin-fluendo-mp3" and
"pullin-flash-player" to arbitrarily add this proprietary software,
whether the user wants it or not.
Sorry for the long email. I'd be very interested to read your further
thoughts. Thanks for your time!
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2:16 a.m.
On Tue, 2014-11-18 at 18:43 -0500, S. wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their replies!
Roger Luedecke wrote:
As I understand it, they are actually merging the
Infinality stuff into
the libraries. Either they are not including encumbered bits, or they
aren't as encumbered as we assumed.
the font rendering issue is being worked on
actually and should be
fixed in an update soon.
Great to hear this! What does the fix involve?
I'm aware that the subpixel rendering used by the Infinality project
(arguable the best font rendering available for Linux) is
patent-encumbered, but in my experience Arch has fonts that are *almost*
as good as Infinality, and I'm pretty sure they don't use anything
patent-encumbered. In my experience, the DejaVu Sans fonts with "slight"
hinting and RGBA antialiasing look pretty nice, even with the default
openSUSE fontconfig. So that's an example where considerable improvement
could be made in the default openSUSE settings, even within the confines
of purely open source solutions.
Roger Luedecke wrote:
I'm aware of this tool, but I'm
not sure that we can port it. Might not
be a bad idea, though in a way I would almost rather have it be less
obvious. I get exhausted very quickly by Ubuntu users and their tendency
towards petulant demands and insults.
As for installing proprietary drivers, I'm
not sure how much easier we
could really make it.
Well, I do think that the Ubuntu Restricted Drivers tool is pretty
fantastic. The reason is that most newish Linux users aren't really
aware of the existence of libre/proprietary drivers, they just want
their hardware to work. Many users aren't even all that sure about what
sort of hardware they have, and it gets even more complicated with
dual-graphics Intel/Nvidia Prime systems. So it requires more than a
little bit of manual investigation to get certain hardware pieces
working. The users has to find the hardware device in the YaST hardware
tool, and then has to Google around to figure out what the names are of
the drivers that correspond to the hardware, then they have to find the
openSUSE package name as well as the repo that contains it. Sometimes
there are libre drivers that work to a certain extent, but some users
require the more complete functionality of a proprietary driver. Yes,
it's not *terribly* difficult, and us seasoned Linux users can do it
with our eyes closed, but I think that a lot of openSUSE users aren't
interested in learning about their system-- they just want it to work
correctly. A tool like the Ubuntu Restricted Drivers does all the hard
work for the user, it tells them what pieces of hardware have an
available proprietary driver, which versions are available, and a
one-click button to enable it if desired.
Roger Luedecke wrote:
Ah, now that would explain some things. I
wonder if that is why Totem
segfaults when I try to play an .avi. That seems like a lousy policy to
disable their ability to use proprietary codecs if they are available. I
think this would be a case for bug reports. I'd bet it is kept that way
since it was done once and simply hasn't been changed yet.
I don't know about our packages being
crippled to complicate using
codecs etc
The most concrete example I can remember off-hand is K3B. To rip MP3s
from an audio CD, it required LAME. But the openSUSE version of K3B was
not compiled with the flag that made it look for the LAME libs, and
therefore it couldn't use LAME even if it was installed.
Perhaps a more modern example are the gstreamer -bad and -ugly packages.
They are offered in the official openSUSE repos, but they don't seem to
actually contain any proprietary codec support, because even after
installing them I couldn't play MP3 or MP4 files.
I'm sure there's more examples of this sort of crippling of openSUSE
packages, but these are some easy examples. Of course, us seasoned
openSUSE users know that it's just a matter of adding Packman, setting
its priority to a lower number to increase the priority (rather
counter-intuitive for beginners) and switching installed packages to the
Packman versions, then adding the gstreamer -bad and -ugly -addon
packages. But that process is long and convoluted compared to other distros.
I know that openSUSE can't offer proprietary codecs out of the box with
the ISOs, but would it be possible to add a YaST module called
"Proprietary Software Support" that offers a "Install proprietary codecs
from Packman" checkbox that runs a simple script to do the whole process
I described in the previous paragraph?
Roger Luedecke wrote:
It'd be the most effective
mechanism we currently have.
We need an integrated 'command-center'
for the project so that
communication will be more transparent and issues can be tracked
in order to avoid regressions.
I see. Meanwhile until that gets implemented, would Bugzilla reports of
these individual issues I mentioned be sufficient?
jdd wrote:
Our wiki is an
unsearchable disaster zone. Frankly I don't really
understand what structure it is supposed to have. I believe there are
articles on how to enable all the proprietary multimedia support. But
articles don't matter much if new users don't know they exist. I'd
frankly want each desktop to have a 'greeter' that emphasizes such
caveats that new users would have.
so, the good way now should be to enable packman,
give it some
lower number as priorité, go to yast software, *repositories view*
and call for software from there. A bit complicated.
My thoughts exactly. I think that if openSUSE can offer a wiki page to
do this whole process manually, it should be possible to add a YaST
module and script to do the same thing, still pulling from Packman and
thus avoiding hosting proprietary software on openSUSE's repos.
Lars Müller wrote:
In
response to Lars; yes, and I do file reports. After a certain point I
do get fatigued with filing reports, and that tends to be by the time I
start fussing with fun things like multimedia. This is especially the
case since I tend to forget how to get to relevant logs and things like
that once an issue has been resolved since I'm not exactly the most
technical user.
Has one of you thought about filing bug reports
for the individual
issues and create one meta bug which references all these reports?
I can do that, I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't be too vague to
report some of these issues that don't relate to a specific package.
Regarding my #2 issue "Automatic installation of extraneous/unrequested
packages, especially after initial installation":
I think that there should be a prompt or something when using YaST
Software for the first time, asking users if they want the resolver to
#1) install recommends for already installed packages, and/or #2 install
recommends for future installed packages. Additionally, I think that
there should be a YaST Software option to enable/disable installation of
recommends for future installed packages-- currently the option is only
available for previously installed packages' recommends. Of course it is
possible to adjust the /etc/zypp/zypp.conf option to not install
recommends, which is obeyed by YaST, but I think a simple GUI checkbox
would be better.
I think we simply need saner 'recommends'. I once
installed some small
thing from KDE, and the next PK update pulled in the ENTIRE KDE
ENVIRONMENT. I was very much not happy about that. Most recently I
installed the broadcom-wl driver and it though xboards was a dependency.
Xboards is a chess engine...
Also, I think that adding a YaST module with checkboxes for installing
common stuff like Flash and openJDK would be better than using the
update mechanism with packages like "pullin-fluendo-mp3" and
"pullin-flash-player" to arbitrarily add this proprietary software,
whether the user wants it or not.
I think maybe doing that in the installer is
feasible, but as a
dedicated YaST module seems to me to be outside of the scope of YaST.
Sorry for the long email. I'd be very interested to read your further
thoughts. Thanks for your time!
--
Roger Luedecke
openSUSE Project
Member and Advocate since 2011
http://www.opensuseadventures.blogspot.com
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2:43 a.m.
Roger Luedecke wrote:
I'd bet it is kept that way since it was done once
and
simply hasn't been changed yet.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Well expressed. That's basically
the point of this thread, to see if openSUSE devs could maybe take a
look at some of these issues with fresh eyes. I was basically trying to
gauge interest from the current group of devs in actually
changing/improving the standard openSUSE defaults, and if there is
interest I'd be glad to file detailed bug reports to get the ball rolling.
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1:41 p.m.
Stanislav Baiduzhyi wrote:
If I understand correctly, RGBA antialiasing *is*
patented
technology we are taking about. Hinting patents already expired,
so grayscale+hinting can be used freely everywhere.
I had filed a prior bug report about the font issue:
https://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=904238
They gave this link about the possible patent issues:
http://david.freetype.org/cleartype-patents.html
I know absolutely nothing about the underlying font rendering
technology, and even less about patent law, but my understanding was
that RGBA antialiasing is not the same as sub-pixel rendering, and that
only the sub-pixel rendering is patent-encumbered. I very well could be
wrong, though. I do know that on any distro, including openSUSE, for
years it has been possible to enable RGBA antialiasing in the Gnome or
KDE font settings, and it does improve font rendering considerably. But
on openSUSE that configuration still doesn't look as good as it does out
of the box on Arch or Ubuntu.
I noted in the above bug report that using *just* the Infinality
fontconfig (not the libraries that actually implement the
patent-encumbered process) with the standard openSUSE font rendering
libraries does considerably improve things on openSUSE. As mentioned
earlier in this thread, maybe something similar to this is in the
process of being implemented now for openSUSE.
Can we expect an update for openSUSE 13.2 with the mentioned font
rendering improvements? Or will it only get pushed out to Tumbleweed and
the next fixed released after 13.2?
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10:29 p.m.
On Wed, 2014-11-19 at 07:41 -0500, S. wrote:
Stanislav Baiduzhyi wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, the folks in Factory
are working on patching
stuff with the Infinality tech.
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If I understand correctly, RGBA antialiasing *is*
patented
technology we are taking about. Hinting patents already expired,
so grayscale+hinting can be used freely everywhere.
I had filed a prior bug report about the font issue:
https://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=904238
They gave this link about the possible patent issues:
http://david.freetype.org/cleartype-patents.html
I know absolutely nothing about the underlying font rendering
technology, and even less about patent law, but my understanding was
that RGBA antialiasing is not the same as sub-pixel rendering, and that
only the sub-pixel rendering is patent-encumbered. I very well could be
wrong, though. I do know that on any distro, including openSUSE, for
years it has been possible to enable RGBA antialiasing in the Gnome or
KDE font settings, and it does improve font rendering considerably. But
on openSUSE that configuration still doesn't look as good as it does out
of the box on Arch or Ubuntu.
I noted in the above bug report that using *just* the Infinality
fontconfig (not the libraries that actually implement the
patent-encumbered process) with the standard openSUSE font rendering
libraries does considerably improve things on openSUSE. As mentioned
earlier in this thread, maybe something similar to this is in the
process of being implemented now for openSUSE.
Can we expect an update for openSUSE 13.2 with the mentioned font
rendering improvements? Or will it only get pushed out to Tumbleweed and
the next fixed released after 13.2?
20 Nov
20 Nov
2:09 p.m.
Regarding openSUSE paper-cut issues, another 13.2 review appeared in
Spanish on openSUSE Planet:
http://www.lasombradelhelicoptero.com/2014/11/opensuse-132-cosas-que-mejora…
The reviewer starts by saying that he likes openSUSE and doesn't want to
bash it, in fact he had declared 13.1 to be the best Linux distro he had
reviewed to date. But he had quite a few issues with 13.2.
Regarding installation of extraneous packages, notice what happened when
he installed Spanish language packages:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YxAPbyJJ7Wo/VGtnX4b23wI/AAAAAAAAFTw/x0XQpKsE-Xc/s…
In his screenshot, I can see the additional dependencies, including
Sane, Skanlite, Synaptiks, tcpdump, telnet, unrar, and a whole plethora
of mostly unrelated packages. He says that step pulled in a sizable
500MB of packages, when all he wanted was some small languages packs.
The glut of packages that are pulled in after the initial installation
continues to create a bad impression on almost every review I've read of
openSUSE to date. I think that the recommended packages for already
installed packages option should be disabled by default, and those
"pullin-this-or-that" updater packages should also be eliminated.
The reviewer also ran into the codecs difficulty. He mentions:
"Something that I know by experience which a novice user has no way of
knowing is that due to license issues openSUSE does not incorporate
hardly any multimedia codecs that are usually employed. However, Ubuntu
doesn't include them either, but this is not an obstacle to a better
multimedia experience thanks to a the simple checkbox during
installation. This is, in my opinion, the main defect of openSUSE,
easily remedied if one knows a bit about the distro or by reading
articles to the tune of 'What to do after installing...' But I try to
look at it from the perspective of a less experienced user, who after
trying to open a video sees a Kaffeine message that warns about needing
to search for 'codecs'. This takes us to YaST, where we have to choose
an option to add community repositories, which then takes us to a list
of sites whose names, sometimes in English, do not make at all clear
which of them to enable or which packages to install. And the worse of
it: after adding Packman, Main OSS and Non-OSS, the result is the same:
No codecs are found to play the file. Where is the problem? Well, the
addition of these repositories will activate a series of packages that
will be installed as recommends in YaST, something that an inexperienced
user is completely unfamiliar with."
I think he stated the point very well from the viewpoint of a normal
user. The comparison with Ubuntu is perhaps a bit wearisome for the
openSUSE devs, but it's definitely the elephant in the room here. Any
thoughts?
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8:54 p.m.
On Thursday 20 November 2014 08.09:59 S. wrote:
I think he stated the point very well from the viewpoint of a normal
user. The comparison with Ubuntu is perhaps a bit wearisome for the
openSUSE devs, but it's definitely the elephant in the room here. Any
thoughts?
What did we really want user that has sold their brain ?
Sorry to be harsh. But then why under windows it is so complicated to have software
it doesn't mimic ubuntu center things, nor do an apple, nor ...
Come on, it's time to relearn to read. If you start a new adventure getting some
lecture is mandatory.
This doesn't excuse us, to have a non working wiki for newbies. But who apart from
nearly new comer can wrote it?
Why those kind of people just show after a release, shout and disappear.
Why they're still not already actively (like doing stuff, not just blabla) acting.
With the time spent to wrote and read this thread, 2/3 of easy fixes would already have
been done.
Guess what, same remarks will occur next release, cause those goose have already jump on a
better green grass.
If you don't give time/effort whatever is needed now to factory, the next release will
be the same.
No magic, no fairy ...
I will tell you a secret, there's no other green place than Geeko's land.
Aren't we not green for them? Who care if they don't did a bullshit minute of work
for our cause.
Can we now concentrate on making factory a bit better tomorrow than yesterday.
--
Bruno Friedmann
Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship
GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227
irc: tigerfoot
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9:19 p.m.
Le 20/11/2014 20:54, Bruno Friedmann a écrit :
With the time spent to wrote and read this thread, 2/3
of easy fixes would already have been done.
well... we had already the discussion about such software (I even
started one some day), but the net result is: no, we can't do better.
the only thing I could think of to make things better would to give
every new repos a lower priority number, to have sofware pulled from them.
Can we now concentrate on making factory a bit better
tomorrow than yesterday.
we probably can't on the subject. remember it was even spoken of
creating an openSUSE foudation on Man Island on this purpose, but this
was not retained
jdd
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9:57 p.m.
On Thu, 2014-11-20 at 20:54 +0100, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Thursday 20 November 2014 08.09:59 S. wrote:
I certainly agree with your lament of these potential new users and
clickbait review bloggers. Simply shouting and leaving helps nobody.
However, having bug reports go neglected for years doesn't inspire newbs
to report. Frankly, it's part of what makes me stop writing reports. I
don't know enough to be especially technical without guidance. And since
I don't provide particularly technical reports, I get ignored and won't
ever have guidance to learn from and make better reports. Worse though
is when a fixed problem returns in a next release. My best guess is that
these regressions are due to poor project management infrastructure.
Also, it isn't useful to not have any true mechanism for reporting
problems. Say some package has insane dependencies or recommends, but
doesn't have an explicit entry in the Bugzilla? Or, what if we take the
time to send a maintainer an e-mail and never get any response and
certainly no resolution?
As you say, this isn't a distro for the entirely brainless whom can't
read. On the other hand, our wiki is an abomination and thus we have
less documentation than we ought to. To further compound that problem,
there is a lack of... presentation, not quite sure how to explain. But
let's see an example. On the page where we have our downloads, it has
links to comprehensive installation instructions... except on how to
make a bootable USB which has risen to enormous popularity. In fact, the
only way to find our article on creating a USB is through an external
search engine. Mind you, this is nothing that just ANYBODY can fix. I
can fix wiki articles, but I have no power over our top domain.
Further on it being an unfriendly for newbs distro... why then are we
creating such large default installations? Why would say the base GNOME
environment need for example Enterprise SIP telephony client? Why is
that part of the pattern, or a recommend? It's unnecessary for mildly
experienced users, and useless to newb consumer users. Also, why are we
even marketing to the newbs at all? Frankly I find them frustrating
since they come to us fleeing Ubuntu for some reason, and then promptly
complain that we aren't Ubuntu.
Additionally there are relatively simple things we could do regarding
messaging, and making sure new users are informed that we haven't done
and nobody seems to care to do at all. Why isn't the KDE SUSEgreeter
more useful, or more up-to-date? Why doesn't GNOME have something
similar? Hell, we could even use the same one from KDE if we are feeling
particularly lazy. Why isn't that greeter blasting users in the face
with how we are a volunteer project, and encouraging bug reporting?
--
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I think he stated the point very well from the viewpoint of a normal
user. The comparison with Ubuntu is perhaps a bit wearisome for the
openSUSE devs, but it's definitely the elephant in the room here. Any
thoughts?
What did we really want user that has sold their brain ?
Sorry to be harsh. But then why under windows it is so complicated to have software
it doesn't mimic ubuntu center things, nor do an apple, nor ...
Come on, it's time to relearn to read. If you start a new adventure getting some
lecture is mandatory.
This doesn't excuse us, to have a non working wiki for newbies. But who apart from
nearly new comer can wrote it?
Why those kind of people just show after a release, shout and disappear.
Why they're still not already actively (like doing stuff, not just blabla) acting.
With the time spent to wrote and read this thread, 2/3 of easy fixes would already have
been done.
Guess what, same remarks will occur next release, cause those goose have already jump on
a better green grass.
If you don't give time/effort whatever is needed now to factory, the next release
will be the same.
No magic, no fairy ...
I will tell you a secret, there's no other green place than Geeko's land.
Aren't we not green for them? Who care if they don't did a bullshit minute of
work for our cause.
Can we now concentrate on making factory a bit better tomorrow than yesterday.
--
Bruno Friedmann
Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship
GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227
irc: tigerfoot
21 Nov
21 Nov
12:36 p.m.
Hey,
On 20.11.2014 21:57, Roger Luedecke wrote:
Why
I can tell you why. It'll not be a nice thing to hear for most of us...
Why do your bug reports go unanswered? Because we don't have enough
people to support the amount of packages we ship. Too much load onto too
few shoulders. Package maintainers _have_ to pick their fights and they
pick the ones they can win (easily). And no one feels responsible to
help maintainers make the most of bugs.
Why is the wiki a mess? Because we don't have enough people maintaining
it. Everyone just adds his 2¢s into it, no one makes sure the whole
thing stays usable. People do the absolute necessary, next to no one
goes the extra mile. No one feels responsible for taking care of
'functionality' wiki.
Why is our documentation often that bad? Like the Live_USB_stick
article. Because everyone just adds whatever he just found out to it and
never looks back. No one makes sure that this beast stays recent,
readable, comprehensible. People just dump their ideas and run off. No
one feels responsible.
Why do those paper-cut issues slip through? Because every one who does
something for this distribution is neck deep in putting the open leg
fractures in splints. The last 1% to 2% to make something perfect are
the ones which are often hardest to do. Just because they are not
obvious when your head is buried in the code. You have to have your mind
free for this, which is very hard if the next open leg fracture just
waits around the corner....
Why is our "marketing" often not to the point? If you simplify there are
2 big things we do each year: Releasing a new version of the
distribution and running a conference. We even struggle to get the most
basic announcements for those together. Simply because there are not
enough people feeling responsible for it.
Why don't we add tons of 'easy' features to our distribution? Why is our
infrastructure outdated and largely unmaintained?
Why? The answer is always the same: It's too much to do for not enough
people.
This has been a spiral for years now. We have too much on our plate.
That's why we struggle to do even do the basics for everything. That's
why nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join and
a lot of people leave.
Sad but true.
Henne
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http://www.opensuse.org
Everybody has a plan, until they get hit.
- Mike Tyson
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1:08 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Handling of openSUSE "paper-cut" issues
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:36:57 +0100
Henne Vogelsang <hvogel(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Hello,
This has been a spiral for years now. We have too much
on our plate.
That's why we struggle to do even do the basics for everything. That's
why nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join
and a lot of people leave.
I'm Linux user since '99, although after looking at Suse's release
numbers it could be that I did start with 4.4 sometime in the
beginning of 1997.
In any case, I left in 2003 to rolling distros - first spent >5yrs with
Gentoo, then same amount with Arch and until now with Debian (Sid).
Now I'm returning back to Suse - put 13.2 on my notebook, soon will put
it on the desktop and then, hopefully on my Linode VPS. (I'm still
considering Tumbleweed, but in any case, it's Suse).
After becoming more familiar (again) with the distro, I'll try to help
as much as possible!!
Sincerely,
Gour
--
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ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action,
although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.
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1:52 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Handling of openSUSE "paper-cut" issues
On Friday 21 November 2014 13.08:54 Gour wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:36:57 +0100
Henne Vogelsang <hvogel(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Hello,
Nope something happened during your vacation on other distribution
openSUSE has appear, a (still) young community project. It's based on effort of
(still) too few contributor's shoulder
which are not payed by SUSE.
Beside that, SUSE still offer to the community numerous very valuable resources and
contribution.
This has been a spiral for years now. We have too
much on our plate.
That's why we struggle to do even do the basics for everything. That's
why nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join
and a lot of people leave.
I'm Linux user since '99, although after looking at Suse's release
numbers it could be that I did start with 4.4 sometime in the
beginning of 1997.
In any case, I left in 2003 to rolling distros - first spent >5yrs with
Gentoo, then same amount with Arch and until now with Debian (Sid).
Now I'm returning back to Suse - put 13.2 on my notebook, soon will put
it on the desktop and then, hopefully on my Linode VPS. (I'm still
considering Tumbleweed, but in any case, it's Suse). After becoming more familiar (again) with the distro,
I'll try to help
as much as possible!!
Try also to check the project as a whole too ;-)
Sincerely,
Gour
--
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Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship
GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227
irc: tigerfoot
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2:26 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Handling of openSUSE "paper-cut" issues
On November 21, 2014 7:52:23 AM EST, Bruno Friedmann <bruno(a)ioda-net.ch> wrote:
On Friday 21 November 2014 13.08:54 Gour wrote:
with
For me as a contributor, the greatest part of openSUSE is 2-fold:
- The do-apoly nature of package inclusion such that packages I care about get in the
distro simply because I am willing to package/maintain them.
- OBS - that is some great infrastructure and I suspect the glue that holds opensuse
together. That it got a major set of improvements in the last year, just makes it
better.
Greg
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 12:36:57 +0100
Henne Vogelsang <hvogel(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Hello,
> This has been a spiral for years now. We have too much on our
plate.
> That's why we struggle to do even do the
basics for everything.
That's
why
nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join
and a lot of people leave.
I'm Linux user since '99, although after looking at Suse's release
numbers it could be that I did start with 4.4 sometime in the
beginning of 1997.
In any case, I left in 2003 to rolling distros - first spent >5yrs Gentoo, then same amount with Arch and until now
with Debian (Sid).
Now I'm returning back to Suse - put 13.2 on my notebook, soon will
put
it on the desktop and then, hopefully on my
Linode VPS. (I'm still
considering Tumbleweed, but in any case, it's Suse).
Nope something happened during your vacation on other distribution
openSUSE has appear, a (still) young community project. It's based on
effort of (still) too few contributor's shoulder
which are not payed by SUSE.
Beside that, SUSE still offer to the community numerous very valuable
resources and contribution.
After becoming more familiar (again) with the
distro, I'll try to
help
as much as possible!!
Try also to check the
project as a whole too ;-)
1:17 p.m.
Le 21/11/2014 12:36, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Hey,
On 20.11.2014 21:57, Roger Luedecke wrote:
I don't agree entirely. searching to have more order send many people
out. more below
Why
I can tell you why. It'll not be a nice thing to hear for most of us...
Why do your bug reports go unanswered? Because we don't have enough
people to support the amount of packages we ship.
bugzilla needs enhancement. Not to say it's easy. I think some more
people could be allowed to give help, at least sorting bugs and helping
bug writers to better make the report. Some kind of (internal?) doc is
needed, for example to know to who assign a bug
Why is the wiki a mess? Because we don't have
enough people maintaining
it.
it's there than I most desagree. A wiki *have to be a mess*. Every body
have to be able to write there without "not in subject", "have to be
reviewed" etc. I used to contribute a lot and was completely disgusted
by the last revamp some years ago. Google is good enough to find the
data in the mess. This don't mean people can't make order in the mess,
but only on a voluntary basis.
SDB and HOTOS are a good place to order things if possible
Why is our documentation often that bad? Like the Live_USB_stick
article. Because everyone just adds whatever he just found out to it and
never looks back. No one makes sure that this beast stays recent,
readable, comprehensible. People just dump their ideas and run off. No
one feels responsible.
as every where in the web. And our documentation is far from bad. I use
it very often and very often with success.
sure, it would be nice to have a writer's team to write a manual for
each distro version, but this is only a dream.
Why do those paper-cut issues slip through? Because every one who does
something for this distribution is neck deep in putting the open leg
fractures in splints.
this is not that important. openSUSE is still one of the first choice
distribution.
I see this (packman) more as a permanent chapter to add to the release
notes. the release notes themselve are very difficult to write because
it's hard to get the info from the devs (not a rant, we are all short of
time, just a fact)
Why is our "marketing" often not to the point? If you simplify there are
2 big things we do (...)
sure, but also the marketting team have a complex situation: gather
informations and write papers at least. The result is not that bad. Only
one people full time (not even sure, is still Jos in charge?)
Why don't we add tons of 'easy' features to our distribution? Why is our
infrastructure outdated and largely unmaintained?
Why? The answer is always the same: It's too much to do for not enough
people.
This has been a spiral for years now. We have too much on our plate.
That's why we struggle to do even do the basics for everything. That's
why nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join and
a lot of people leave.
I was thinking french people where the only one to bash themselves, but
looks like there are not alone. :-)
Henne, you are one of the most valuable openSUSE member and you make a
splendid job. openSUSE is, may be, the most polished distribution in the
world! and I was last week next Debian, Fedora and ubuntu fans, and I
can say my booth was far the smarter
our booth:
http://dodin.info/piwigo/picture.php?/106543-dsc02518_25029/category/5675
Debian (left) and Fedora (right)
http://dodin.info/piwigo/picture.php?/106544-dsc02519_4735/category/5675
Debian goodies where for sale when ours are free and the second day
there where nobody else than us...
what you describe is the life. We need more flexibility, not more stress :-)
and let me thanks also everybody in the SUSE team. It's a thing I write
in the papers, we have a sponsor extremely involved, including in free
time, and it's a great strenght
jdd
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1:48 p.m.
Hey,
On 21.11.2014 13:17, jdd wrote:
That's beside the point. If there is no one taking care of making your
wiki (the tool) and it's content consumable then it doesn't matter if it
gets found or not. Because once you've found it you can't do anything
with it.
Because we're still pulling this off. Is this sustainable in the future?
I have doubts.
If it would be complex and cumbersome it would probably get done
automatically.
Thank you Jean. Appreciated :-)
Still I'm more than worried about the future of this project and
distribution. To quote one of my favourite (French) Movies:
There is a man falling from a 50-story sky scraper. To calm himself he
is saying to himself: So far so good, so far so good, so far so good.
But he misses the point, the important part is not the fall, it's the
impact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk77VrkxL88
Henne
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Le 21/11/2014 12:36, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
And why do you think bugzilla enhancements don't get code, screening
teams don't get formed or help documents don't get written?
On 20.11.2014 21:57, Roger Luedecke wrote:
I don't agree entirely. searching to have more order send many people
out. more below
Why
I can tell you why. It'll not be a nice thing to hear for most of us... Why do your bug reports go unanswered? Because we
don't have enough
people to support the amount of packages we ship.
bugzilla needs enhancement. Not to say it's easy. I think some more
people could be allowed to give help, at least sorting bugs and helping
bug writers to better make the report. Some kind of (internal?) doc is
needed, for example to know to who assign a bug Why is the
wiki a mess? Because we don't have enough people maintaining
it.
Google is good enough to find the data in the mess. Why do those
paper-cut issues slip through? Because every one who does
something for this distribution is neck deep in putting the open leg
fractures in splints.
this is not that important. openSUSE is still one of the first choice
distribution. Why is our
"marketing" often not to the point? If you simplify there are
2 big things we do (...)
sure, but also the marketing team have a complex situation: gather
informations and write papers at least. The result is not that bad. Only one people full time
(not even sure,
is still Jos in charge?)
No one is in charge. SUSE hired someone to help with this (hey Douglas)
but until he is up to speed it will be some time. And is that something
that sounds healthy? That we need a sponsor to hire someone to do this?
Why don't
we add tons of 'easy' features to our distribution? Why is our
infrastructure outdated and largely unmaintained?
Why? The answer is always the same: It's too much to do for not enough
people.
This has been a spiral for years now. We have too much on our plate.
That's why we struggle to do even do the basics for everything. That's
why nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join and
a lot of people leave.
I was thinking french people where the only one to bash themselves, but
looks like there are not alone. :-)
Henne, you are one of the most valuable openSUSE member and you make a
splendid job.
1:52 p.m.
On Friday 21 November 2014 12.36:57 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hey,
On 20.11.2014 21:57, Roger Luedecke wrote:
Thanks.
--
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openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship
GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227
irc: tigerfoot
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Why
I can tell you why. It'll not be a nice thing to hear for most of us...
Why do your bug reports go unanswered? Because we don't have enough
people to support the amount of packages we ship. Too much load onto too
few shoulders. Package maintainers _have_ to pick their fights and they
pick the ones they can win (easily). And no one feels responsible to
help maintainers make the most of bugs.
Why is the wiki a mess? Because we don't have enough people maintaining
it. Everyone just adds his 2¢s into it, no one makes sure the whole
thing stays usable. People do the absolute necessary, next to no one
goes the extra mile. No one feels responsible for taking care of
'functionality' wiki.
Why is our documentation often that bad? Like the Live_USB_stick
article. Because everyone just adds whatever he just found out to it and
never looks back. No one makes sure that this beast stays recent,
readable, comprehensible. People just dump their ideas and run off. No
one feels responsible.
Why do those paper-cut issues slip through? Because every one who does
something for this distribution is neck deep in putting the open leg
fractures in splints. The last 1% to 2% to make something perfect are
the ones which are often hardest to do. Just because they are not
obvious when your head is buried in the code. You have to have your mind
free for this, which is very hard if the next open leg fracture just
waits around the corner....
Why is our "marketing" often not to the point? If you simplify there are
2 big things we do each year: Releasing a new version of the
distribution and running a conference. We even struggle to get the most
basic announcements for those together. Simply because there are not
enough people feeling responsible for it.
Why don't we add tons of 'easy' features to our distribution? Why is our
infrastructure outdated and largely unmaintained?
Why? The answer is always the same: It's too much to do for not enough
people.
This has been a spiral for years now. We have too much on our plate.
That's why we struggle to do even do the basics for everything. That's
why nothing is very polished. That's why next to no new people join and
a lot of people leave.
Sad but true.
Henne
3:19 p.m.
Hi everyone,
I'm the starter of this thread, and I definitely don't think that all is
doom and gloom for openSUSE. I think I mentioned that I have also
switched back to openSUSE thanks to the combination of the new
Tumbleweed availability and the 13.2 fixed release. I think that the OBS
and YaST are two defining features of openSUSE that make it uniquely
valuable for my needs, and Packman is also superb, albeit poorly
integrated by openSUSE.
As far as bug handling, I have actually found openSUSE to fairly
efficient. I reported a *LOT* of bugs against Factory rolling (now
Tumbleweed) and the 13.1 RC, ranging from a few fairly serious, others
petty, others "nice to have" requests. Overall, I was fairly impressed
with the response I got. In fact, I would say that my experience with
bug reporting was significantly better than Arch and Ubuntu, and
infinitely better than the offshoot projects that depend completely on a
parent distro and don't really fix their own core OS bugs (Mint,
Manjaro, etc).
With regards to documentation, frankly I feel that *all* distros except
Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is huge and commercial, but
their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete and terribly out of
date. Debian's is also very lacking and assumes great technical
knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the underlying
system more unified across distros, I just use the Arch wiki for almost
everything, and it's mostly applicable to openSUSE too.
I don't mean to give the wrong impression with this thread. As I
mentioned, I wanted to gauge interest in fixing smallish "paper-cut"
issues, not core, fundamental, ideological, or infrastructure-related
changes. I don't think openSUSE should be a clone of Ubuntu, but there
is considerable room for improvement in terms of ease-of-use and refinement.
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24 Nov
24 Nov
1:20 p.m.
On Friday 21 November 2014 09.19:20 S. wrote:
Hi everyone,
I'm the starter of this thread, and I definitely don't think that all is
doom and gloom for openSUSE. I think I mentioned that I have also
switched back to openSUSE thanks to the combination of the new
Tumbleweed availability and the 13.2 fixed release. I think that the OBS
and YaST are two defining features of openSUSE that make it uniquely
valuable for my needs, and Packman is also superb, albeit poorly
integrated by openSUSE.
Again, this is due to all the Patent/crap troll.
openSUSE/SUSE is not allowed to make it easy (change the law, and it will be really easy
for us to improve the situation)
This means, next time don't vote for those who defend those way of thinking.
It's not allowed to pre-install packman or other same kind of repositories on end-user
computers.
The community repo you are seeing in Yast is a awfully complicated ping-pong (really).
But even if we can still improve a bit the situation, with concrete proposal, I don't
believe the way you desire it
is really possible.
As far as bug handling, I have actually found openSUSE to fairly
efficient. I reported a *LOT* of bugs against Factory rolling (now
Tumbleweed) and the 13.1 RC, ranging from a few fairly serious, others
petty, others "nice to have" requests. Overall, I was fairly impressed
with the response I got. In fact, I would say that my experience with
bug reporting was significantly better than Arch and Ubuntu, and
infinitely better than the offshoot projects that depend completely on a
parent distro and don't really fix their own core OS bugs (Mint,
Manjaro, etc).
Good to know, and yeah the team behind triage etc on bugzilla deserve a more thankful.
With regards to documentation, frankly I feel that *all* distros except
Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is huge and commercial, but
their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete and terribly out of
date. Debian's is also very lacking and assumes great technical
knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the underlying
system more unified across distros, I just use the Arch wiki for almost
everything, and it's mostly applicable to openSUSE too.
Did you check the http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ website. Did you see that website is
totally collaborative
once you register and login ?
Aka, to improve the doc, you can propose, comment etc ???
I don't mean to give the wrong impression with this thread. As I
mentioned, I wanted to gauge interest in fixing smallish "paper-cut"
issues, not core, fundamental, ideological, or infrastructure-related
changes. I don't think openSUSE should be a clone of Ubuntu, but there
is considerable room for improvement in terms of ease-of-use and refinement.
For sure, but as already stated, we need people interest in, that have also the strength
to commitment.
Sure we're legion, but we need legion^2 :-)
Thanks anyway for your report, if we're still fighting, just prove we're still
alive :-)
--
Bruno Friedmann
Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship
GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227
irc: tigerfoot
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6:15 p.m.
On Mon, 2014-11-24 at 13:20 +0100, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
THIS IS EXACTLY one of the things I've been bitching about. Yet another
undocumented mystery sub-domain. Want to know why nobody sticks around?
It's because you have to lurk for a year or have personal connections
before you can even navigate!
I think we can fix all this, but when I've proposed
it in the past I got
resistance to the point of obstruction. Lots of people saying how it
couldn't be done, only a few saying lets give it a shot. I busted my ass
trying to do it (Richard Brown even provided a VPS that I couldn't
remember how to use at the time) and even managed to recruit developers
help from Novell! Yet we couldn't do it, because of the obstructionary
nay-saying.
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With regards
to documentation, frankly I feel that *all* distros
except
Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is
huge and commercial,
but
their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete
and terribly out
of
date. Debian's is also very lacking and
assumes great technical
knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the
underlying
system more unified across distros, I just use
the Arch wiki for
almost
everything, and it's mostly applicable to
openSUSE too.
Did you check the http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ website. Did you see
that website is totally collaborative
once you register and login ?
Aka, to improve the doc, you can propose, comment etc ???
I don't mean to give the wrong impression with this thread. As I
mentioned, I wanted to gauge interest in fixing smallish
"paper-cut"
issues, not core, fundamental, ideological, or
infrastructure-related
changes. I don't think openSUSE should be a
clone of Ubuntu, but
there
is considerable room for improvement in terms of
ease-of-use and
refinement.
For sure, but as already stated, we need people interest in, that have
also the strength to commitment.
Sure we're legion, but we need legion^2 :-)
Thanks anyway for your report, if we're still fighting, just prove
we're still alive :-)
25 Nov
25 Nov
9:16 a.m.
On Monday 24 November 2014 09.15:47 Roger Luedecke wrote:
I think we can fix all this, but when I've proposed
it in the past I got
resistance to the point of obstruction. Lots of people saying how it
couldn't be done, only a few saying lets give it a shot. I busted my ass
trying to do it (Richard Brown even provided a VPS that I couldn't
remember how to use at the time) and even managed to recruit developers
help from Novell! Yet we couldn't do it, because of the obstructionary
nay-saying.
--
Bruno Friedmann
Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship
GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227
irc: tigerfoot
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On Mon, 2014-11-24 at 13:20 +0100, Bruno Friedmann
wrote:
THIS IS EXACTLY one of the things I've been bitching about. Yet another
undocumented mystery sub-domain. Want to know why nobody sticks around?
It's because you have to lurk for a year or have personal connections
before you can even navigate!
Stop bitching, it is not unknown really.
it was rtfm.o.o then doc.o.o and as the tool change finally got activedoc
but was always available
First link on web search engine with "opensuse documentation" keywords
Available from home page of wiki -> Portal:Documentation
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Documentation
Also well known url since years doc.opensuse.org
You lost this time, with a bad argument. Doc has always been visible and accessible.
With
regards to documentation, frankly I feel that *all* distros
except
Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is
huge and commercial,
but
their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete
and terribly out
of
date. Debian's is also very lacking and
assumes great technical
knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the
underlying
system more unified across distros, I just use
the Arch wiki for
almost
everything, and it's mostly applicable to
openSUSE too.
Did you check the http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ website. Did you see
that website is totally collaborative
once you register and login ?
Aka, to improve the doc, you can propose, comment etc ???
I don't mean to give the wrong impression with this thread. As I
mentioned, I wanted to gauge interest in fixing smallish
"paper-cut"
issues, not core, fundamental, ideological, or
infrastructure-related
changes. I don't think openSUSE should be a
clone of Ubuntu, but
there
is considerable room for improvement in terms of
ease-of-use and
refinement.
For sure, but as already stated, we need people interest in, that have
also the strength to commitment.
Sure we're legion, but we need legion^2 :-)
Thanks anyway for your report, if we're still fighting, just prove
we're still alive :-) 
10:56 a.m.
At Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:16:59 +0100,
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 24 November 2014 09.15:47 Roger Luedecke wrote:
Even after few years in community and a lot of personal connections I haven't
heard about this domain so far. I don't think he's bitching ;)
Best regards,
S_W
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On Mon, 2014-11-24 at 13:20 +0100, Bruno
Friedmann wrote:
THIS IS EXACTLY one of the things I've been bitching about. Yet another
undocumented mystery sub-domain. Want to know why nobody sticks around?
It's because you have to lurk for a year or have personal connections
before you can even navigate!
Stop bitching, it is not unknown really.
it was rtfm.o.o then doc.o.o and as the tool change finally got activedoc With
regards to documentation, frankly I feel that *all* distros
except
Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is
huge and commercial,
but
their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete
and terribly out
of
date. Debian's is also very lacking and
assumes great technical
knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the
underlying
system more unified across distros, I just use
the Arch wiki for
almost
everything, and it's mostly applicable to
openSUSE too.
Did you check the http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ website. Did you see
that website is totally collaborative
once you register and login ?
Aka, to improve the doc, you can propose, comment etc ???
5:19 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Tomas Cech <tcech(a)suse.cz> wrote:
At Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:16:59 +0100,
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
It is documented in the wiki:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_Contribute
If you look at doc.opensuse.org you will see a note:
==
Since openSUSE 13.1 all openSUSE related documentation moved to our
community editing server ActiveDoc.opensuse.org and the links below
are only retained here for reference.
==
Unfortunately that note is not very well highlighted so users could miss it.
Also, I note that on wiki's header template there is a pull-down for
"support - documentation" that still points at the old server.
Fixing that is above my pay grade.
Greg
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On Monday 24 November 2014 09.15:47 Roger Luedecke wrote:
Even after few years in community and a lot of personal connections I haven't
heard about this domain so far. I don't think he's bitching ;)
Best regards,
S_W On Mon, 2014-11-24 at 13:20 +0100, Bruno
Friedmann wrote:
Stop bitching, it is not unknown really.
it was rtfm.o.o then doc.o.o and as the tool change finally got activedoc > With regards to documentation, frankly I
feel that *all* distros
except
> Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is huge and commercial,
but
> their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete and terribly out
of
> date. Debian's is also very lacking and assumes great technical
> knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
> Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the
underlying
> system more unified across distros, I just use the Arch wiki for
almost
> everything, and it's mostly applicable to openSUSE too.
Did you check the http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ website. Did you see
that website is totally collaborative
once you register and login ?
Aka, to improve the doc, you can propose, comment etc ???
THIS IS EXACTLY one of the things I've been bitching about. Yet another
undocumented mystery sub-domain. Want to know why nobody sticks around?
It's because you have to lurk for a year or have personal connections
before you can even navigate! 
5:23 p.m.
Le 25/11/2014 17:19, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
Since openSUSE 13.1 all openSUSE related documentation
moved to our
community editing server ActiveDoc.opensuse.org and the links below
are only retained here for reference.
does this mean the wiki is obsolete? I don't really understand this
sentence :-(
thanks
jdd
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5:58 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:23 AM, jdd <lesrevesdeness(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Le 25/11/2014 17:19, Greg Freemyer a écrit :
For years openSUSE has had 2 primary documentation sources:
https://en.opensuse.org
http://doc.opensuse.org/
The first is the wiki. The second is the manuals. The manuals I
assume are what used to come in the box sets.
The manuals are listed at
<https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_List_of_Manuals>
In days past the manuals were maintained exclusively by SUSE/Novell
employees I think.
In order to make the "manuals" community supportable they have moved
them to https://activedoc.opensuse.org
For instance the security guide is at:
<https://activedoc.opensuse.org/book/opensuse-security-guide>
If you want to contribute to the manuals:
<https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_Contribute>
Greg
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Since openSUSE 13.1 all openSUSE related
documentation moved to our
community editing server ActiveDoc.opensuse.org and the links below
are only retained here for reference.
does this mean the wiki is obsolete? I don't really understand this sentence
:-(
thanks
jdd
7:43 p.m.
very well explained, you should copy/paste this on the documentation
wiki page :-)
thanks
jdd
For years openSUSE has had 2 primary documentation
sources:
https://en.opensuse.org
http://doc.opensuse.org/
The first is the wiki. The second is the manuals. The manuals I
assume are what used to come in the box sets.
The manuals are listed at
<https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_List_of_Manuals>
In days past the manuals were maintained exclusively by SUSE/Novell
employees I think.
In order to make the "manuals" community supportable they have moved
them to https://activedoc.opensuse.org
For instance the security guide is at:
<https://activedoc.opensuse.org/book/opensuse-security-guide>
If you want to contribute to the manuals:
<https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_Contribute>
Greg
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7:53 p.m.
Most of the info is already there:
https://en.opensuse.org/Documentation
I'd make some edits, but I'm not sure they would help.
The bigger issue is getting people to read that page. (today i read
it for the first time.)
Greg
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 1:43 PM, jdd <lesrevesdeness(a)gmail.com> wrote:
very well explained, you should copy/paste this on the
documentation wiki
page :-)
thanks
jdd
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For years openSUSE has had 2 primary
documentation sources:
https://en.opensuse.org
http://doc.opensuse.org/
The first is the wiki. The second is the manuals. The manuals I
assume are what used to come in the box sets.
The manuals are listed at
<https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_List_of_Manuals>
In days past the manuals were maintained exclusively by SUSE/Novell
employees I think.
In order to make the "manuals" community supportable they have moved
them to https://activedoc.opensuse.org
For instance the security guide is at:
<https://activedoc.opensuse.org/book/opensuse-security-guide>
If you want to contribute to the manuals:
<https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_Contribute>
Greg
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26 Nov
26 Nov
6:51 p.m.
On 11/25/2014 10:53 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Most of the info is already there:
https://en.opensuse.org/Documentation
I'd make some edits, but I'm not sure they would help.
The bigger issue is getting people to read that page. (today i read
it for the first time.)
Greg
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 1:43 PM, jdd <lesrevesdeness(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> very well explained, you should copy/paste this on the documentation wiki
> page :-)
>
> thanks
> jdd
>
>> For years openSUSE has had 2 primary documentation sources:
>>
>> https://en.opensuse.org
>>
>> http://doc.opensuse.org/
>>
>> The first is the wiki. The second is the manuals. The manuals I
>> assume are what used to come in the box sets.
>>
>> The manuals are listed at
>> <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_List_of_Manuals>
>>
>> In days past the manuals were maintained exclusively by SUSE/Novell
>> employees I think.
>>
>> In order to make the "manuals" community supportable they have moved
>> them to https://activedoc.opensuse.org
>>
>> For instance the security guide is at:
>> <https://activedoc.opensuse.org/book/opensuse-security-guide>
>>
>> If you want to contribute to the manuals:
>> <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_Contribute>
>>
>> Greg
>>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
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>
I don't think anybody trusts the wiki. It's so often out of date, and
such a mess to navigate that it really doesn't lend one to trust it.
Case in point, the Bumblebee article specifically makes mention of "if
you don't trust this guide, here is an alternative."
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6:54 p.m.
Le 26/11/2014 18:51, Roger Luedecke a écrit :
I don't think anybody trusts the wiki. It's so
often out of date, and
such a mess to navigate that it really doesn't lend one to trust it.
do you trust internet :-)? it's even worst
google find very often solutions in the opensuse forum
jdd
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27 Nov
27 Nov
6:44 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:19 PM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Tomas Cech
<tcech(a)suse.cz> wrote:
Why not move ActiveDoc.opensuse.org to doc.opensuse.org?
Mustafa
At Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:16:59 +0100,
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
It is documented in the wiki:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Documentation_Contribute
If you look at doc.opensuse.org you will see a note:
==
Since openSUSE 13.1 all openSUSE related documentation moved to our
community editing server ActiveDoc.opensuse.org and the links below
are only retained here for reference.
==
Unfortunately that note is not very well highlighted so users could miss it.
On Monday 24 November 2014 09.15:47 Roger Luedecke wrote:
Even after few years in community and a lot of personal connections I haven't
heard about this domain so far. I don't think he's bitching ;)
Best regards,
S_W On Mon, 2014-11-24 at 13:20 +0100, Bruno
Friedmann wrote:
> > With regards to documentation, frankly I feel that *all* distros
> except
> > Arch have pretty awful documentation. Ubuntu is huge and commercial,
> but
> > their documentation is also horrible-- incomplete and terribly out
> of
> > date. Debian's is also very lacking and assumes great technical
> > knowledge. Only Arch is a shining star of excellent documentation.
> > Fortunately with systemd and other projects that make the
> underlying
> > system more unified across distros, I just use the Arch wiki for
> almost
> > everything, and it's mostly applicable to openSUSE too.
>
> Did you check the http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ website. Did you see
> that website is totally collaborative
> once you register and login ?
> Aka, to improve the doc, you can propose, comment etc ???
THIS IS EXACTLY one of the things I've been bitching about. Yet another
undocumented mystery sub-domain. Want to know why nobody sticks around?
It's because you have to lurk for a year or have personal connections
before you can even navigate!
Stop bitching, it is not unknown really.
it was rtfm.o.o then doc.o.o and as the tool change finally got activedoc
Also, I note that on wiki's header template there is a pull-down for
"support - documentation" that still points at the old server.
Fixing that is above my pay grade.
Greg
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25 Nov
25 Nov
9:29 p.m.
Greg Freemyer wrote:
https://en.opensuse.org/Documentation
I'd make some edits, but I'm not sure they would help.
The bigger issue is getting people to read that page.
Yep, that's the truth. That's why I'm not a huge fan of things like
"Steps to take after installing openSUSE" type of pages with 1-click
installers to add support for this or that. The problem is that many
users are just not accustomed to looking for solutions online, they
expect a button or prompt integrated into the operating system that
offers the functionality in question.
I still would like to suggest a YaST module for this purpose. There
actually used to be an non-free add-on CD for old versions of openSUSE,
with a YaST module to add it to the software sources. Maybe a module
similar to that could be brought back to life. It could offer checkboxes
for "Install proprietary multimedia support" and "Install proprietary
Nvidia driver" and "Install proprietary Radeon driver". These checkboxes
could run a script that would add the appropriate 3rd-party non-openSUSE
repo (Packman, Nvida, etc.), set the priority, and install the packages.
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26 Nov
26 Nov
6:57 p.m.
On 11/25/2014 12:29 PM, S. wrote:
Greg Freemyer wrote:
I believe we still have that module. It is from the SUSE
Enterprise
legacy, where an OEM might have special drivers or something. A YaST
module still wouldn't be a solution. I'd say a tiny 'Hello World' type
pop-up program that says, "we are not Ubuntu so don't expect Ubuntu. Do
not make demands, you get what you pay for and openSUSE is free. Google
is your friend, and reading won't make you turn to Satan."
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https://en.opensuse.org/Documentation
I'd make some edits, but I'm not sure they would help.
The bigger issue is getting people to read that page.
Yep, that's the truth. That's why I'm not a huge fan of things like
"Steps to take after installing openSUSE" type of pages with 1-click
installers to add support for this or that. The problem is that many
users are just not accustomed to looking for solutions online, they
expect a button or prompt integrated into the operating system that
offers the functionality in question.
I still would like to suggest a YaST module for this purpose. There
actually used to be an non-free add-on CD for old versions of
openSUSE, with a YaST module to add it to the software sources. Maybe
a module similar to that could be brought back to life. It could offer
checkboxes for "Install proprietary multimedia support" and "Install
proprietary Nvidia driver" and "Install proprietary Radeon driver".
These checkboxes could run a script that would add the appropriate
3rd-party non-openSUSE repo (Packman, Nvida, etc.), set the priority,
and install the packages.
7:08 p.m.
Le 26/11/2014 18:57, Roger Luedecke a écrit :
> I still would like to suggest a YaST module for
this purpose. There
> actually used to be an non-free add-on CD for old versions of
> openSUSE, with a YaST module to add it to the software sources. Maybe
> a module similar to that could be brought back to life
that's a good idea. Could it be possible to create a "multimedia" dvd
(or cd) let alone with the packman repo?
this cd could ba available on a community web site
jdd
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8:06 p.m.
On 11/26/2014 10:08 AM, jdd wrote:
Le 26/11/2014 18:57, Roger Luedecke a écrit :
I've been contemplating just that. The ability to create a driver disk
from Packman and the prop. drivers. I imagine there are probably
licensing issues pertaining to that, though I think it'd be nice.
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> I still would like to suggest a YaST module
for this purpose. There
> actually used to be an non-free add-on CD for old versions of
> openSUSE, with a YaST module to add it to the software sources. Maybe
> a module similar to that could be brought back to life
that's a good idea. Could it be possible to create a "multimedia" dvd
(or cd) let alone with the packman repo?
this cd could ba available on a community web site
jdd
17 Nov
17 Nov
9:05 p.m.
Am Montag 17 November 2014, 14:48:35 schrieb S.:
( 'paper-cut' issues)
1. Ugly font rendering
Are you willing to pay to license the patented technologies that make font
redering prettier?
2. Automatic installation of extraneous/unrequested
packages, especially
after initial installation.
...dependencies. Any particular examples?
3. Crippled packages meant to prevent compatibility
with proprietary
multimedia formats.
see 1). Many currently widespread audio/video codecs are patented.
4. Difficult to install multimedia and/or proprietary
formats and drivers.
see 1) and 3).
5. Breakage of YaST modules.
...examples?
So basically your list of five paper cuts comes down to one central problem
that can't be solved, and that is commonly known as "software patents", and
two technical problems that might be solved if there were actual examples for
what the problem is.
by the way, where does one find that "latest distrowatch review", google does
not know it.
cheers
MH
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9:21 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 12:05 AM, Mathias Homann
<Mathias.Homann(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
by the way, where does one find that "latest distrowatch review", google does
not know it.
cheers
MH
Hello Mathias,
I believe he was referring to the following review =>
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141117#feature
Besides, we could maybe take his critic as positive. It doesn't really
harm the project.
Ish Sookun
- Geek by birth ... Linux by choice.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|H|A|C|K|L|O|G|.|i|n|
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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18 Nov
18 Nov
9:18 a.m.
Le 17/11/2014 21:21, Ish Sookun a écrit :
I believe he was referring to the following review
=>
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141117#feature
Besides, we could maybe take his critic as positive. It doesn't really
harm the project.
very interesting. I didn't run in most of the problem signaled, but this
review should be verifyed and if bug remain, fixed
jdd
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7:36 p.m.
On Tue, 2014-11-18 at 09:18 +0100, jdd wrote:
Le 17/11/2014 21:21, Ish Sookun a écrit :
In my experience the packaging issues and YaST issues are spot-on.
--
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openSUSE Project
Member and Advocate since 2011
http://www.opensuseadventures.blogspot.com
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I believe he was referring to the following
review =>
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141117#feature
Besides, we could maybe take his critic as positive. It doesn't really
harm the project.
very interesting. I didn't run in most of the problem signaled, but this
review should be verifyed and if bug remain, fixed
jdd
8:01 p.m.
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:36:58AM -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:
On Tue, 2014-11-18 at 09:18 +0100, jdd wrote:
Has one of you thought about filing bug reports for the individual
issues and create one meta bug which references all these reports?
Else I'm sure nothing will change. Cause we all only fix issues we are
getting aware of. And the tool to track individual issues is bugzilla.
One technical issue == one bug report.
Sending a general complain and reference to a review report doesn't
drive anyone at the development side.
Cheers,
Lars
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team + SUSE Labs
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Le 17/11/2014 21:21, Ish Sookun a écrit :
In my experience the packaging issues and YaST issues are spot-on. I believe he was referring to the following
review =>
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141117#feature
Besides, we could maybe take his critic as positive. It doesn't really
harm the project.
very interesting. I didn't run in most of the problem signaled, but this
review should be verifyed and if bug remain, fixed
8:36 p.m.
Le 18/11/2014 20:01, Lars Müller a écrit :
Sending a general complain and reference to a review
report doesn't
drive anyone at the development side.
oh oh, no "internet survey" on the devs part :-))
jdd
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8:05 a.m.
On Mon, 2014-11-17 at 14:48 -0500, S. wrote:
Hi everyone,
I've been an intermittent user of SuSE and openSUSE for well over a
decade, starting back in the 6.x days if I remember correctly. I've
always admired the project for its professionalism and broad scope. I
recently switched back to openSUSE thanks to the rolling Factory (now
Tumbleweed) announcement, and I also have 13.2 installed on other
machines. I'm really enjoying the experience, and this time, I'd like to
stay.
I really want to see openSUSE succeed, but unfortunately I tend to see
it dismissed by potential new users as "a nice distro, but..." followed
by certain annoyances or "paper-cut" issues. This week's openSUSE 13.2
review on Distrowatch is the most recent example of such comments. I
feel that openSUSE is fundamentally extremely well designed and
executed, but I have also noticed the same recurring "paper-cut" issues
year after year, release after release. So I'm wondering if anything
could be done about them, or if the developers have any interest in
fixing them.
Without going into detail, here are a few general areas of concern that
I often hear and/or have personally noticed throughout many openSUSE
releases:
1. Ugly font rendering
2. Automatic installation of extraneous/unrequested packages, especially
after initial installation.
3. Crippled packages meant to prevent compatibility with proprietary
multimedia formats.
4. Difficult to install multimedia and/or proprietary formats and drivers.
5. Breakage of YaST modules.
All of the above issues do have workarounds, and think it would be best
for this thread to not get into the technical details of these
aforementioned issues. But in general terms, these issues come up time
after time in reviews and forum posts about openSUSE. So my question is:
Would the openSUSE project be interested in working to resolve any or
all of these issues? And if so, where would be the best place for me to
bring up these issues and work with developers to make improvements?
Some of the issues are not related to any one specific package, but are
rather of a more systemic nature. In some cases legal/patent issues are
probably involved. (Again, let's please avoid legal discussions in this
thread.) Although I am not a coder or developer *at all*, I do have an
eye for detail and polish, and I have a good idea of what typical users
expect out of a Linux distro on the desktop. I'd like to help to
identify and test solutions to these papercuts if any developers are
willing to look into some of these long-standing issues with a fresh eye.
Any comments? Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.
It should be
understood of course in regards to patented or licensed
technologies, there is little we can do about that. On the other hand,
the font rendering issue is being worked on actually and should be fixed
in an update soon.
As for installing proprietary drivers, I'm not sure how much easier we
could really make it. Most reviews complaining about that are due to a
fundamental misunderstanding of how it works with us, and they are
expecting it to be like Ubuntu which has an in your face tool for it.
Whereas we simply add a repo, and things are generally handled
automatically with an update so long as 'recommends' haven't been
disabled.
I don't know about our packages being crippled to complicate using
codecs etc, though it's easy for me at least to see why you'd think so.
Multimedia packages seem to be poorly maintained, and I often have
problems with them such as the segfault with .avi on Totem even after
installing the Fluendo Codec Pack.
I have witnessed the problem of broken YaST modules, in my case it being
the System Services module doesn't actually seem to do anything at all
when you change something. I'm inclined to suspect this has to do with
it not being fully updated to work with the way systemd deals with
services.
In general I understand your concern regarding papercut issues. I think
it has to do with the phenomenon of 'cat-herding'. We have far too many
communication channels which are poorly integrated, and often underused.
My solution I was pushing for was to adopt the Kablink which is the FOSS
Novell Vibe, a web-based team collaboration platform developed by
Novell. My idea was not merely to add it as YASD (Yet Another
Sub-Domain) but to make it front and central to replace and supplement
some existing channels, while being tied in with others via scripted
extensions. This was however shot down since people didn't like the
interface, and felt we had inadequate web developers to make it happen.
However, I recently discovered the addition of a Redmine install in a
subdomain which hardly anybody knows exists, and is even less useful and
redundant than Kablink.
Towards the above point, I think that would still be the final solution.
We need an integrated 'command-center' for the project so that
communication will be more transparent and issues can be tracked in
order to avoid regressions. I have been considering approaching the
community as a whole with the idea again, but this time proposing a
Kickstarter or IndieGoGo campaign so we can hire some dedicated
developers to make sure the task is done correctly and completely.
--
Roger Luedecke
openSUSE Project
Member and Advocate since 2011
http://www.opensuseadventures.blogspot.com
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12:09 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Handling of openSUSE "paper-cut" issues
On Mon, 17 Nov 2014 23:05:25 -0800
Roger Luedecke <roger.luedecke(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hello Roger,
I'm atm using Debian (sid) and evaluating (under vbox) 13.2 for my
desktop/notebook and eventually VPS (Linode). Interestingly, I've
started Linux with Suse in 1999 (Lenz was great support guy at the
time), but later moved away due to rpm-dep-hell problems.
Now I see that Zypp seems to be great dep-solver and I'm on the path
back. :-)
On the other hand, the font rendering issue is being
worked on
actually and should be fixed in an update soon.
I'm glad to hear it!
As for installing proprietary drivers, I'm not
sure how much easier we
could really make it. Most reviews complaining about that are due to a
fundamental misunderstanding of how it works with us, and they are
expecting it to be like Ubuntu which has an in your face tool for it.
Whereas we simply add a repo, and things are generally handled
automatically with an update so long as 'recommends' haven't been
disabled.
I also read that 'review', but didn't get that the solution is to 'just
add the repo', so it does not sound bad, imho.
In general I understand your concern regarding
papercut issues. I
think it has to do with the phenomenon of 'cat-herding'. We have far
too many communication channels which are poorly integrated, and
often underused.
The number of mailing lists, IRC channels etc. is really overwhelming,
so cutting those short a bit and focus/integrate those might be good
strategy.
Towards the above point, I think that would still be
the final
solution. We need an integrated 'command-center' for the project so
that communication will be more transparent and issues can be tracked
in order to avoid regressions. I have been considering approaching the
community as a whole with the idea again, but this time proposing a
Kickstarter or IndieGoGo campaign so we can hire some dedicated
developers to make sure the task is done correctly and completely.
I'm looking forward hoping that Suse will 'pass' my evaluation and that
I'll be soon part of the (old) community. ;)
All the best,
Gour
--
One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction,
is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position,
although engaged in all sorts of activities.
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1:21 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Re: Handling of openSUSE "paper-cut" issues
Le 18/11/2014 12:09, Gour a écrit :
I also read that 'review', but didn't get
that the solution is to 'just
add the repo', so it does not sound bad, imho.
in fact, I guess the problem is that cut down of many multimedia apps
exists for compatibility reason, and when adding Packman, this repo do
not trigger a higher priority for it. so it's not sure that when one
install the apps there are really dl from packman
so, the good way now should be to enable packman, give it some lower
number as priorité, go to yast software, *repositories view* and call
for software from there. A bit complicated
jdd
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19 Nov
19 Nov
12:07 p.m.
On Monday 17 November 2014 23:05:25 Roger Luedecke wrote:
It should be understood of course in regards to
patented or licensed
technologies, there is little we can do about that. On the other hand,
the font rendering issue is being worked on actually and should be fixed
in an update soon.
That's very interesting. Could you give us some spoilers?
Also, patents are location-specific, are they not? Is it possible to do some
mechanism to provide uncrippled version for locations where those patents are
not enforced?
On Tuesday 18 November 2014 18:43:02 S. wrote:
I'm aware that the subpixel rendering used by the
Infinality project
(arguable the best font rendering available for Linux) is
patent-encumbered, but in my experience Arch has fonts that are *almost*
as good as Infinality, and I'm pretty sure they don't use anything
patent-encumbered. In my experience, the DejaVu Sans fonts with "slight"
hinting and RGBA antialiasing look pretty nice, even with the default
openSUSE fontconfig. So that's an example where considerable improvement
could be made in the default openSUSE settings, even within the confines
of purely open source solutions.
If I understand correctly, RGBA antialiasing *is* patented technology we are
taking about. Hinting patents already expired, so grayscale+hinting can be
used freely everywhere.
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Regards,
Stas
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2243
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2253
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47 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Andy anditosan -
Bruno Friedmann -
Gour -
Greg Freemyer -
Henne Vogelsang -
Ish Sookun -
jdd -
jdd -
Lars Müller -
Mathias Homann -
Mustafa Muhammad -
Roger Luedecke -
S. -
Stanislav Baiduzhyi -
Tomas Cech