On Thu, 2014-11-20 at 20:54 +0100, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Thursday 20 November 2014 08.09:59 S. wrote:
I think he stated the point very well from the viewpoint of a normal user. The comparison with Ubuntu is perhaps a bit wearisome for the openSUSE devs, but it's definitely the elephant in the room here. Any thoughts?
What did we really want user that has sold their brain ? Sorry to be harsh. But then why under windows it is so complicated to have software it doesn't mimic ubuntu center things, nor do an apple, nor ...
Come on, it's time to relearn to read. If you start a new adventure getting some lecture is mandatory.
This doesn't excuse us, to have a non working wiki for newbies. But who apart from nearly new comer can wrote it?
Why those kind of people just show after a release, shout and disappear. Why they're still not already actively (like doing stuff, not just blabla) acting.
With the time spent to wrote and read this thread, 2/3 of easy fixes would already have been done.
Guess what, same remarks will occur next release, cause those goose have already jump on a better green grass. If you don't give time/effort whatever is needed now to factory, the next release will be the same. No magic, no fairy ...
I will tell you a secret, there's no other green place than Geeko's land. Aren't we not green for them? Who care if they don't did a bullshit minute of work for our cause.
Can we now concentrate on making factory a bit better tomorrow than yesterday.
Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot
I certainly agree with your lament of these potential new users and clickbait review bloggers. Simply shouting and leaving helps nobody.
However, having bug reports go neglected for years doesn't inspire newbs to report. Frankly, it's part of what makes me stop writing reports. I don't know enough to be especially technical without guidance. And since I don't provide particularly technical reports, I get ignored and won't ever have guidance to learn from and make better reports. Worse though is when a fixed problem returns in a next release. My best guess is that these regressions are due to poor project management infrastructure.
Also, it isn't useful to not have any true mechanism for reporting problems. Say some package has insane dependencies or recommends, but doesn't have an explicit entry in the Bugzilla? Or, what if we take the time to send a maintainer an e-mail and never get any response and certainly no resolution?
As you say, this isn't a distro for the entirely brainless whom can't read. On the other hand, our wiki is an abomination and thus we have less documentation than we ought to. To further compound that problem, there is a lack of... presentation, not quite sure how to explain. But let's see an example. On the page where we have our downloads, it has links to comprehensive installation instructions... except on how to make a bootable USB which has risen to enormous popularity. In fact, the only way to find our article on creating a USB is through an external search engine. Mind you, this is nothing that just ANYBODY can fix. I can fix wiki articles, but I have no power over our top domain.
Further on it being an unfriendly for newbs distro... why then are we creating such large default installations? Why would say the base GNOME environment need for example Enterprise SIP telephony client? Why is that part of the pattern, or a recommend? It's unnecessary for mildly experienced users, and useless to newb consumer users. Also, why are we even marketing to the newbs at all? Frankly I find them frustrating since they come to us fleeing Ubuntu for some reason, and then promptly complain that we aren't Ubuntu.
Additionally there are relatively simple things we could do regarding messaging, and making sure new users are informed that we haven't done and nobody seems to care to do at all. Why isn't the KDE SUSEgreeter more useful, or more up-to-date? Why doesn't GNOME have something similar? Hell, we could even use the same one from KDE if we are feeling particularly lazy. Why isn't that greeter blasting users in the face with how we are a volunteer project, and encouraging bug reporting?