[opensuse-kde] KShutdown as root
Hi. Why does KShutdown run as root? It works just fine without it. Why does my Submit Request to fix that get declined with nothing but a "No"? https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887 The SR that implemented that change <https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/397792>, is not helpful at all. The only description is "Please accept these changes" and the changelog also does clarify the change to run KShutdown as root. Can anyone please enlighten me? Bye. Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Onsdag den 6. juli 2016 17:06:16 skrev Markus Slopianka:
Why does KShutdown run as root? It works just fine without it. Why does my Submit Request to fix that get declined with nothing but a "No"? https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887
The SR that implemented that change <https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/397792>, is not helpful at all. The only description is "Please accept these changes" and the changelog also does clarify the change to run KShutdown as root.
Can anyone please enlighten me?
I hadn't looked into it closer, but I also noticed running kshutdown using the desktop file (via launcher menu or krunner) asked for root password, while running 'kshutdown' in konsole lets kshutdown work perfectly fine as a normal user, afaict. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/06/2016 11:06 AM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
Hi. Why does KShutdown run as root? It works just fine without it.
Have you checked boundary value conditions? As opposed to simply what is running on your system? I can imagine a shutdown that requires features and functions to be killed or other operations tat can only be carried out as root, which you are not running on your system.
Why does my Submit Request to fix that get declined with nothing but a "No"? https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887
Can anyone please enlighten me?
I'm not sure that some kind of password-less su to root for shutdown is a good thing under any conditions. It leads to bad habits. Imagine you're one a multi-user machine. Do you really want any user to be able to shut it down? This is not DOS, this is not Windows; I may "think" I'm the only user of my machine but WHOOPS! I have a web server running and someone else is using that or perhaps I have a print job running or a backup running, or I've exported part of my file system NFS or CIPS and that's mounted elsewhere ........ -- Most people are not really free. They are confined by the niche in the world that they carve out for themselves. They limit themselves to fewer possibilities by the narrowness of their vision. --V. S. Naipaul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 2016-07-07 13:02, Anton Aylward wrote:
Can anyone please enlighten me?
I'm not sure that some kind of password-less su to root for shutdown is a good thing under any conditions. It leads to bad habits.
Imagine you're one a multi-user machine. Do you really want any user to be able to shut it down?
Imagine a laptop. A user would be very disgusted at not being able to shut it down. The user on the seat can always push the power button, anyway. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 07/07/2016 08:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Imagine you're one a multi-user machine. Do you really want any user to be able to shut it down?
Imagine a laptop. A user would be very disgusted at not being able to shut it down. The user on the seat can always push the power button, anyway.
As Markus observes, this should be under the control of the admin. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Donnerstag, 7. Juli 2016 07:02:25 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
Have you checked boundary value conditions?
Running applications as root, just because they can, is bad. Not only is the password prompt inconvenient, it's also bad security.
I can imagine a shutdown that requires features and functions to be killed or other operations tat can only be carried out as root, which you are not running on your system.
KShutdown does not require running as root to perform its functions.
I'm not sure that some kind of password-less su to root for shutdown is a good thing under any conditions. It leads to bad habits.
Plasma itself does not ask for a password to shutdown, nor does any other modern desktop.
Imagine you're one a multi-user machine. Do you really want any user to be able to shut it down?
I want the admin to configure user's rights accordingly. AFAIK KShutdown just makes dbus calls. It's security by obscurity to disallow only a single front-end.
This is not DOS, this is not Windows
No, this is openSUSE and openSUSE does override upstream's defaults here for no apparent reason. If Nemysis would explain their reasons, I could re-evaluate my stance. Again: - No explanation in the changelog, just sneaked into a patch that also tweaks "Categories=" to openSUSE's needs or – as the patch is described in the spec file: "Fix Categories and uncomment some entries". - No explanation in the original Submit Request; just a "No, declined" to my Submit Request. In the meantime, the package in my home repo works just fine and I'd be happy to contribute it: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:KAMiKAZOW/kshutdown It also reverts a few other weird changes (like capital D in the name despite what the official website http://kshutdown.sf.net/ says). Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/07/2016 09:15 AM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
On Donnerstag, 7. Juli 2016 07:02:25 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
Have you checked boundary value conditions?
Running applications as root, just because they can, is bad. Not only is the password prompt inconvenient, it's also bad security.
But you DO run applications with IDsx other than your own. if you have a web service running it is spawned by the init process (probably systemd) which is running as root, so that it can connect to a privileged port. You can't kill(2) a process you don't own, You need to be root to do that. There are many reasons one might have a web service running. I'm the only user of my (home) system and network, but I may want to access ,y LDAP database of addresses from my tablet via my owncloud service, or upload a file via the FTP service on my desktop.
I can imagine a shutdown that requires features and functions to be killed or other operations tat can only be carried out as root, which you are not running on your system.
KShutdown does not require running as root to perform its functions.
If you look a systemsettings and follow though you'll find that /sbin/shutdown symlinks to /usr/bin/systemctl which is not privileged. By looking at how its called, systemctl can do any one of halt, reboot, or poweroff. So the issue isn't about KDE, its about the how systemctl/system determine who and what can carry out various commands. Check man:systemd.special(7) which might lead you to, for example, poweroff.target, and you'll see what access controls are implemented there. Note it says "A few units are treated specially by systemd. They have special internal semantics and cannot be renamed." and as you'll read, halt.target, poweroff.target and reboot.target are among those. Perhaps you have this managed by SELinux, but probably not :-)
Imagine you're one a multi-user machine. Do you really want any user to be able to shut it down?
I want the admin to configure user's rights accordingly. AFAIK KShutdown just makes dbus calls.
Yes, but that's beside the point, its still handled by systemd.
It's security by obscurity to disallow only a single front-end.
It's not about a single front end and its not obscure. The systedemd/systemctl may be unfamiliar to many but its there, as is the SELinux documentation.
This is not DOS, this is not Windows
No, this is openSUSE and openSUSE does override upstream's defaults here for no apparent reason.
You mean "reasons that are rarely, if ever, stated or justified".
If Nemysis would explain their reasons, I could re-evaluate my stance. Again:
Granted. But as many people have observed techies/geeks/programmers are not the best communicators :-( Often when pressed to explain or justify they come cantankerous.
- No explanation in the changelog, just sneaked into a patch that also tweaks "Categories="
Well, that a clue!
to openSUSE's needs or – as the patch is described in the spec file: "Fix Categories and uncomment some entries". - No explanation in the original Submit Request; just a "No, declined" to my Submit Request.
In the meantime, the package in my home repo works just fine and I'd be happy to contribute it: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:KAMiKAZOW/kshutdown It also reverts a few other weird changes (like capital D in the name despite what the official website http://kshutdown.sf.net/ says).
Markus
-- Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. --H. G. Wells -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
OK, apparently Nemysis refuses to answer on any channel – not in OBS, not here, not anywhere. I think over a month time is more than enough. Therefore I reopened https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887 Unless there is a sane reason why KShutdown should run as root, please accept that SR. If running it as root makes sense, please tell me why. Markus On Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2016 17:06:16 CEST Markus Slopianka wrote:
Hi. Why does KShutdown run as root? It works just fine without it. Why does my Submit Request to fix that get declined with nothing but a "No"? https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887
The SR that implemented that change <https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/397792>, is not helpful at all. The only description is "Please accept these changes" and the changelog also does clarify the change to run KShutdown as root.
Can anyone please enlighten me?
Bye. Markus
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On vendredi, 12 août 2016 04.28:49 h CEST Markus Slopianka wrote:
OK, apparently Nemysis refuses to answer on any channel – not in OBS, not here, not anywhere. I think over a month time is more than enough.
Therefore I reopened https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887
Unless there is a sane reason why KShutdown should run as root, please accept that SR. If running it as root makes sense, please tell me why.
Markus
On Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2016 17:06:16 CEST Markus Slopianka wrote:
Hi. Why does KShutdown run as root? It works just fine without it. Why does my Submit Request to fix that get declined with nothing but a "No"? https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/406887
The SR that implemented that change <https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/397792>, is not helpful at all. The only description is "Please accept these changes" and the changelog also does clarify the change to run KShutdown as root.
Can anyone please enlighten me?
Bye. Markus
Thinking about it, there's perhaps one usecase you will need root. Did you try to have 2 to 3 sessions with differents users, and try to shutdown? What happen if not root ? -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch Bareos Partner, openSUSE Member, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 08:39:19 CEST Bruno Friedmann wrote:
Thinking about it, there's perhaps one usecase you will need root. Did you try to have 2 to 3 sessions with differents users, and try to shutdown?
What happen if not root ?
Nobody said users should be forbidden to run "kdesu kshutdown" on their own. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/11/2016 10:28 PM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
If running it as root makes sense, please tell me why.
I tell you three ytimes If you're not root you can't kill processes you don't own If you're not root you can't kill processes you don't own If you're not root you can't kill processes you don't own Please read the man page for the various forms of 'kill; kill(2) killpg(2) tkill(2) tgkill(2) systemd.kill(5) On a single user system there are processes owned by root that you can't kill unless you're root on a single user system there are processes not owned by the use or by root that you can't kill # ps -ef | egrep -v "root|anton" UID PID PPID C STIME TTY TIME CMD rpc 1103 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 /sbin/rpcbind -w -f avahi 1324 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 avahi-daemon: running [Mainbox.local] nscd 1329 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 /usr/sbin/nscd message+ 1348 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 /bin/dbus-daemon --system --address=systemd: --nofork --nopidfile --systemd-activation dovecot 1676 1665 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 dovecot/anvil [1 connections] dnsmasq 1693 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 /usr/sbin/dnsmasq --log-async --enable-dbus --keep-in-foreground ftp 1696 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 proftpd: (accepting connections) postfix 1813 1812 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 pickup -l -t fifo -u postfix 1814 1812 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 qmgr -l -t fifo -u ntp 1846 1 0 07:57 ? 00:00:00 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p /var/run/ntp/ntpd.pid -g -u ntp:ntp -i /var/lib/ntp -c /etc/ntp.conf polkitd 2269 1 0 07:59 ? 00:00:00 /usr/lib/polkit-1/polkitd --no-debug colord 2286 1 0 07:59 ? 00:00:00 /usr/lib/colord rtkit 2369 1 0 07:59 ? 00:00:00 /usr/lib/rtkit/rtkit-daemon dovecot 4094 1665 0 08:35 ? 00:00:00 dovecot/auth [0 wait, 0 passdb, 0 userdb] And at that, I'm not running any web services (Think:Apache) or databases. On a multi-user system there will be process owned by those other users. If you're not root you can't shut those down either. If users could shit down other users' processes there would be chaos! I've mentioned this before. What is it about this that you don't understand? -- To mathematicians, solutions mean finding the answers. But to chemists, solutions are things that are still all mixed up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, 12 August 2016 09:01:00 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/11/2016 10:28 PM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
If you're not root you can't kill processes you don't own
True. But then again, I am able to shutdown my laptop from the KDE menu.
Please read the man page for the various forms of 'kill;
kill(2) killpg(2) tkill(2) tgkill(2) systemd.kill(5)
I don’t think that one could compare killing processes, with shutting down a computer.
On a multi-user system there will be process owned by those other users. If you're not root you can't shut those down either. If users could shit down other users' processes there would be chaos!
Wouldn't this even be a very good argument to prevent kshutdown running as root ? That way an user only has to start kshutdown and he could kill other users processes and therefore create chaos.
What is it about this that you don't understand? Well, strangely enough the reasons you are bringing up to run kshutdown as root, seems more arguments to PREVENT running it as root.
if I run kshutdown as a normal user (so without your patch), then I can schedule a shutdown of my laptop and this is executed perfectly. I guess that kshutdown doesn't do anything else than using the standard desktop functionality. And if you decline a submitrequest, then it would be highly appreciated to explain your decision and not to put just "NO". I don't think that you would like to such answers on your submitrequests either. Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 09:34 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
On Friday, 12 August 2016 09:01:00 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/11/2016 10:28 PM, Markus Slopianka wrote: If you're not root you can't kill processes you don't own True. But then again, I am able to shutdown my laptop from the KDE menu.
Please read the man page for the various forms of 'kill;
kill(2) killpg(2) tkill(2) tgkill(2) systemd.kill(5)
I don’t think that one could compare killing processes, with shutting down a computer.
I'm VERY curious as to why you say that. I would think that a shutdown is the ultimate !KILL! of all threads and processes :-) No, really. I'm running KDE and a few Gnomic applications like Thunderbird and Firefox and occasionally others like darktable. These are GUIs. They are layered on X11. To shut down "gracefully", that is, saving state & files and 'workspaces', X11 and derived processes can handle the SIGKILL and SIGSTOP. The signals SIGKILL and SIGSTOP cannot be caught or ignored! That has been so in Linux and UNIX for as long as I can remember. When you do use the shutdown or the exit from KDE - or Gnome or any other DM for that matter - the DM send the STOP and eventually KILL signals to its children. You can expect a proper shutdown of the file systems, flushing and unmounting. It might do this because it has received STOP or KILL signal 'from above'. None of this is new or special. It has been the case with X11 and its applications since ling before the existence of KDE or Gnome. I'm not saying that you can't perform a hard, ungraceful shutdown. I can hit the power button, but on reboot I expect a FSCk and possibly some !ouch! and I don't expect my working context/workspace to have been gracefully saved and restored. You can take that avenue if you wish; I prefer the graceful shutdown that occurs when my processes receive the STOP and KILL signals. -- "Too many preachers use the bible as a stepladder for their soapbox." -- John Tandervold -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 09:34 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
On a multi-user system there will be process owned by those other users. If you're not root you can't shut those down either. If users could shit down other users' processes there would be chaos! Wouldn't this even be a very good argument to prevent kshutdown running as root ? That way an user only has to start kshutdown and he could kill other users processes and therefore create chaos.
What is it about this that you don't understand? Well, strangely enough the reasons you are bringing up to run kshutdown as root, seems more arguments to PREVENT running it as root.
if I run kshutdown as a normal user (so without your patch), then I can schedule a shutdown of my laptop and this is executed perfectly. I guess that kshutdown doesn't do anything else than using the standard desktop functionality.
What is it that you don't understand in the difference between a self-administered, self installed, self-configured single user machine such as your laptop and professionally administered, commercial service ISP running 24 cores on one Terabyte of memory and a 20,000 Terabyte RAID array supports over 18,000 accounts and over 400 actively logged on users? I have an account on an ISP of that order. The give one weeks warning, minimum, of a shutdown. -- Echelon appears to work very much like a Web search engine, except that instead of searching Web pages it searches through the world's phone and data network traffic in real time. -- Ross Anderson, _Security Engineering_ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 09:34 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
And if you decline a submitrequest, then it would be highly appreciated to explain your decision and not to put just "NO". I don't think that you would like to such answers on your submitrequests either.
Yes, I agree with you there. All to many developers lack the basic social graces. -- Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity. -- George S. Patton -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 09:01:00 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/11/2016 10:28 PM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
If running it as root makes sense, please tell me why.
I tell you three ytimes
I asked Nemysis why that should be default, not some random person. For over a month Nemysis refused to answer.
On a multi-user system there will be process owned by those other users. If you're not root you can't shut those down either. If users could shit down other users' processes there would be chaos!
I've mentioned this before.
What is it about this that you don't understand?
What's so hard about running "kdesu kshutdown" when you're in a non-default environment? Nothing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 10:00 AM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
What's so hard about running "kdesu kshutdown" when you're in a non-default environment? Nothing.
"non default" meaning what, exactly? Non-defayult for you might be default for someone else. Sure, go ahead and to that on a heavily multi-user ISP service that allows ssh & X-over-ssh access as many do, and see how welcome you are. I betcha the "default" they have is a very different from the "default' you have on your home system, and if they are in any way competent they have taken measures to ensure you can't shut-down the system and can't become root. me? Well I make great use of PAM -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 10:28:34 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
"non default" meaning what, exactly?
That if you simply click through Yast during installation, there is only one user account at the end.
Non-defayult for you might be default for someone else.
No, openSUSE has one default in that case. Everything else is post- installation customization.
Sure, go ahead and to that on a heavily multi-user ISP service that allows ssh & X-over-ssh access as many do, and see how welcome you are.
I betcha the "default" they have is a very different from the "default' you have on your home system, and if they are in any way competent they have taken measures to ensure you can't shut-down the system and can't become root.
Yeah… See, I don't really care about the strange arguments you come up with. I made an argument that KShutdown's desktop icon in openSUSE should not override the upstream defaults and mandate that it runs only as root. openSUSE's KDE team agreed with me on that matter, so the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 12/08/16 09:11 AM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 10:28:34 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
"non default" meaning what, exactly? That if you simply click through Yast during installation, there is only one user account at the end.
Non-defayult for you might be default for someone else. No, openSUSE has one default in that case. Everything else is post- installation customization.
Sure, go ahead and to that on a heavily multi-user ISP service that allows ssh & X-over-ssh access as many do, and see how welcome you are.
I betcha the "default" they have is a very different from the "default' you have on your home system, and if they are in any way competent they have taken measures to ensure you can't shut-down the system and can't become root. Yeah… See, I don't really care about the strange arguments you come up with. I made an argument that KShutdown's desktop icon in openSUSE should not override the upstream defaults and mandate that it runs only as root. openSUSE's KDE team agreed with me on that matter, so the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.
Markus, Try, as an ordinary user with no special privileges, to KILL or even INT a process you do not own, either in KSysguard or in htop. You need to provide the root password to do it. When you shutdown the system, processes *should* be stopped cleanly, meaning they are first given a SIGINT. If that fails, then they are KILLed, which certainly does *not* result in a clean shutdown of that process. Everything Anton has said makes perfect sense; there is nothing "strange" about it: you cannot cleanly and safely shut down the system unless you first gain root privileges. What is so difficult about that to understand? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 12:53 PM, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Everything Anton has said makes perfect sense; there is nothing "strange" about it: you cannot cleanly and safely shut down the system unless you first gain root privileges. What is so difficult about that to understand?
And there are many ways of gaining root priviledge! Some implicitly configured, some you may need to configure. There's a number of things relating to, for example, burning DVDs, where I have set up access to the DVD device, even though it is nominally owned by root. There are a few other commands that I've configured into /etc/sudoers so i don't need a password each time. None of this is odd; administrative delegation of specific funtions goes back a long way. There a paper from USENIX/LISA-IV 1990 titled "Life without root" on delegating what would normally be root-restricted subsystems to ordinary or to specific users. That was a long time before SUN came up with PAM and RBAC for the same thing. Oh, and there's SIGSTOP that you forgot to mention :-) -- Almost all quality improvement comes via simplification of design,manufacturing, layout, processes, and procedures. -- Tom Peters -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, 12 August 2016 10:53:22 CEST Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Markus, Try, as an ordinary user with no special privileges, to KILL or even INT a process you do not own, either in KSysguard or in htop. You need to provide the root password to do it.
When you shutdown the system, processes *should* be stopped cleanly, meaning they are first given a SIGINT. If that fails, then they are KILLed, which certainly does *not* result in a clean shutdown of that process.
Everything Anton has said makes perfect sense; there is nothing "strange" about it: you cannot cleanly and safely shut down the system unless you first gain root privileges. What is so difficult about that to understand?
Based on the above, I guess that we have to start patching all the desktops in order to be run as root. Guys, can you even read what you are actually writing. Yes, a normal user can not KILL a process that is running under another userid, which is fully correct. However how is this related to initiate the "Shutdown", "Reboot", "Suspend" action from the desktop menu ?? Does an user have to provide root access for this ??? NO. this is what the system itself is handling and works perfectly fine. KShutdown is nothing more than an enhanced version of this functionality. Can it kill user processes, no, it can't and it doesn't even offer this functionality. The only thing that it does provide is the same menu choices one has through the standard KDE login menu (Shutdown, Suspend, Hibernate, Reboot and logout). It is only enhanced that you have a timer so that you could have your computer initiate a shutdown when you are not there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 01:52 PM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
Based on the above, I guess that we have to start patching all the desktops in order to be run as root.
Guys, can you even read what you are actually writing. Yes, a normal user can not KILL a process that is running under another userid, which is fully correct.
However how is this related to initiate the "Shutdown", "Reboot", "Suspend" action from the desktop menu ?? Does an user have to provide root access for this ??? NO.
Actually it's a YES You aren't reading what we're writing. We are making it very clear that the heavily multi-user system I talk of has been heavily custom configured; for example the accounts i have on a few such machines have me in a chroot'd jail where there are many commands that I simply don't have. The sysadmins of such systems confgure them! The single user (e.g. laptop) system you describe has a much simpler setup and assumes a user who has some slight clue about system administration, but needs not have an in-depth understanding of the issues. Its better if that's configured OotB for that limit. The Greybeards and Gurus here are, to put it bluntly, not newbies or neophytes. Some of still adminster multi-user systems and don't want ordinary users, even users of KDE or Gnome DMs, to shut down the system. We will configure it that way regardless of what comes out of the box, regardless of what a zypper update brings. That is our job. Still more are 'retired' (is that possible?) from such positions. We still hack our configurations to our liking. Does a user have to provide root access ? Well, actually yes. You might try running the systemctl options from the command line on a system where there is no PAM or SUDO configured to let users do that. I plead guilty; I've hacked both PAM.d and /etc/sudoers; I'm in the wheel group and the video group and the audio group and the pulse group and the www group and the cdrom group and the vmbox group. So sue me! Do you think that possibly - HA HA HA - the KDE has a built-in SU mechanism that allows you to execute the /sbin/shutdown -h -P now when its set for "local" and "everybody" within KDE but not from the same user's VT login command line? What's the above? Well if you look 'under the hood' the shutdown of KDE uses that. So what is KDE doing that the command line version of exactly the same command isn't doing? Its in the configuration. And what do you want to bet that the people running admin at the large ISPs know more about it it than you or I and know how to turn that off so that KDE users can't shut down their system? Oh, you want something interesting? Try to shutdown while SMPlayer is showing a movie :) HA HA HA! -- There is no more cooperative group of people than a gang of boys who have been offered the chance to help legally destroy something. -- http://www.toxiccustard.com/vcr/03.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, 12 August 2016 14:43:05 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/12/2016 01:52 PM, Raymond Wooninck wrote: We are making it very clear that the heavily multi-user system I talk of has been heavily custom configured; for example the accounts i have on a few such machines have me in a chroot'd jail where there are many commands that I simply don't have. The sysadmins of such systems confgure them!
And in those environments the sysadmin would provide you with the root password so that you can run kshutdown ??? In the environment that you are describing, I don't think that you would have even access to something like kshutdown and I am sure that the desktop you might be running in such environment does not have the shutdown possiblity either.
The Greybeards and Gurus here are, to put it bluntly, not newbies or neophytes. Some of still adminster multi-user systems and don't want ordinary users, even users of KDE or Gnome DMs, to shut down the system.
And those admins would provide the users with kshutdown ?? I believe that this whole discussion got blown out of proportions and nobody is actually looking at how this started. The basic question was that kshutdown is asking for the root password (when starting through the desktop file / menu) and this is not according to the upstream default. Markus has filed a change for this to follow the upstream default and having kshutdown started as root. This change got bluntly denied with just the answer "NO". As that the maintainer of the package didn't gave any further indications, he came to this mailinglist with the question what is wrong with his proposed change. And in my opinion instead of looking really at what he wrote and needed, a whole discussion was started about heavy multi- user systems where the root password is required for shutdown, etc. Do you really believe that kshutdown would fit in those environments ? And that having kshutdown asking for the root password (if at least the user is starting it through the menu) would work in the environments you describe ?? Especially if you are working in a separate environment where you do not have the possibilities to shutdown or reboot the system, I am pretty sure that you will not have the password either. I would even doubt if that user would have the access to install software. But of course I could be completely wrong and you as a sysadmin of large systems have been completely relying on tools like kshutdown to schedule the shutdown of multi-user environments. But then again, as that you are the sysadmin, would you require it to ask for the root password if you start it from the menu ?? (Especially that if you start it from the command prompt, it would just start). It would be good if people would still see the context of questions raised and stay to the topic. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 03:23 PM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:
On Friday, 12 August 2016 14:43:05 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
On 08/12/2016 01:52 PM, Raymond Wooninck wrote: We are making it very clear that the heavily multi-user system I talk of has been heavily custom configured; for example the accounts i have on a few such machines have me in a chroot'd jail where there are many commands that I simply don't have. The sysadmins of such systems confgure them!
And in those environments the sysadmin would provide you with the root password so that you can run kshutdown ???
Obviously NOT!
In the environment that you are describing, I don't think that you would have even access to something like kshutdown and I am sure that the desktop you might be running in such environment does not have the shutdown possiblity either.
Yes, that is the point i've been trying to make. The single user/laptop/PC model grew out of the IBM/Microsoft PC concepts of "personal computing". UNIX has, except for its initial beginning, always been at least heavily multi-process with a variety of UIDs for the processes, and even then, such as the SUN workstations, there is the central multi-user server.
I believe that this whole discussion got blown out of proportions and nobody is actually looking at how this started.
This got started with a single user/PC/laptop outlook. Such systems are self administered. One poster talked about a 'default" installation meaning 'out of the box" aka straight off a distribution DVD. If we're talking about an system where there has been !ZERO! customization after that point, not even the addition of another user account, then its not really that different from a late model MS-Windows, is it? There you have the user account and an admin account, which is, nominally, if the user set it, password protected. But the installer knows that that password is. The problem comes when we look at commercial/corporate environments. All the ones I've worked at that have supplied me with a corporate PC/laptop (they definitely do not want my Linux laptop connected to their MS network!) had a management account on it that I could not access. When I logged in the corporate net downloaded initialization scripts that I had no control over that did administrative things. I could not download or run any software other than what they gave me. Yes I could shut down my workstation. No I could not shut down anyone else's workstations or any of their jobs running on the server. No I could not shut down the server. Do you see anything wrong with that? I don't. Now lets push that to any other shared environment you want; perhaps the cloud, perhaps an ISP, perhaps the shared service on the large IBM machine running, as some do, Linux as remote to your display engine on your PC/laptop -- 'cos that's the way X11 works :-) But, just like all the IBM/Microsoft PCs in history and up to today's #10, you can still (gracefully) shut down your own workstation. Just don't mess around with anyone else's machine or processes! -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Fredag den 12. august 2016 14:43:05 skrev Anton Aylward:
And what do you want to bet that the people running admin at the large ISPs know more about it it than you or I and know how to turn that off so that KDE users can't shut down their system?
Exactly. Whatever polkit policies or whatever it is that allows normal users to shut down the system. Disabling those policies will in all likelihood also stop kshutdown from working for normal users. So there's no reason to do weird things to the kshutdown package. If you want to stop people from shutting down the system, the solution is deeper in the system in some systemwide configuration of polkit or systemd or whatever, not in the .desktop files of random individual packages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 04:28 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 12. august 2016 14:43:05 skrev Anton Aylward:
And what do you want to bet that the people running admin at the large ISPs know more about it it than you or I and know how to turn that off so that KDE users can't shut down their system?
Exactly. Whatever polkit policies or whatever it is that allows normal users to shut down the system. Disabling those policies will in all likelihood also stop kshutdown from working for normal users.
So there's no reason to do weird things to the kshutdown package. If you want to stop people from shutting down the system, the solution is deeper in the system in some systemwide configuration of polkit or systemd or whatever, not in the .desktop files of random individual packages.
Point. And of course ordinary users can't alter the systemwide polkit :-) I just *knew* there were people out there smarter than me! -- Sometimes I think your train of though is carrying a shipment of toxic waste. -- Ozy & Millie, Monday, August 28, 2000 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/12/2016 04:28 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 12. august 2016 14:43:05 skrev Anton Aylward:
And what do you want to bet that the people running admin at the large ISPs know more about it it than you or I and know how to turn that off so that KDE users can't shut down their system?
Exactly. Whatever polkit policies or whatever it is that allows normal users to shut down the system. Disabling those policies will in all likelihood also stop kshutdown from working for normal users.
So there's no reason to do weird things to the kshutdown package. If you want to stop people from shutting down the system, the solution is deeper in the system in some systemwide configuration of polkit or systemd or whatever, not in the .desktop files of random individual packages.
+1 Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 2016-08-13 02:12, Roman Bysh wrote:
On 08/12/2016 04:28 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 12. august 2016 14:43:05 skrev Anton Aylward:
And what do you want to bet that the people running admin at the large ISPs know more about it it than you or I and know how to turn that off so that KDE users can't shut down their system?
Exactly. Whatever polkit policies or whatever it is that allows normal users to shut down the system. Disabling those policies will in all likelihood also stop kshutdown from working for normal users.
So there's no reason to do weird things to the kshutdown package. If you want to stop people from shutting down the system, the solution is deeper in the system in some systemwide configuration of polkit or systemd or whatever, not in the .desktop files of random individual packages.
+1
Yes. And perhaps YaST could have a config setup allowing the user in the seat to suspend or powerdown the computer, or not. Normally the user (probably also the owner) of a computer should not be asked to type the root password to power off his own computer. Multiuser machines should have an easy to spot global config to change that behaviour. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
Fredag den 12. august 2016 10:53:22 skrev Darryl Gregorash:
On 12/08/16 09:11 AM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 10:28:34 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
"non default" meaning what, exactly?
That if you simply click through Yast during installation, there is only one user account at the end.
Non-defayult for you might be default for someone else.
No, openSUSE has one default in that case. Everything else is post- installation customization.
Sure, go ahead and to that on a heavily multi-user ISP service that allows ssh & X-over-ssh access as many do, and see how welcome you are.
I betcha the "default" they have is a very different from the "default' you have on your home system, and if they are in any way competent they have taken measures to ensure you can't shut-down the system and can't become root.
Yeah… See, I don't really care about the strange arguments you come up with. I made an argument that KShutdown's desktop icon in openSUSE should not override the upstream defaults and mandate that it runs only as root. openSUSE's KDE team agreed with me on that matter, so the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.
Markus, Try, as an ordinary user with no special privileges, to KILL or even INT a process you do not own, either in KSysguard or in htop. You need to provide the root password to do it.
When you shutdown the system, processes *should* be stopped cleanly, meaning they are first given a SIGINT. If that fails, then they are KILLed, which certainly does *not* result in a clean shutdown of that process.
Everything Anton has said makes perfect sense; there is nothing "strange" about it: you cannot cleanly and safely shut down the system unless you first gain root privileges. What is so difficult about that to understand?
Maybe that 99.9% of users, including myself, shut down the system every day with a couple of clicks and normal user priviliges - including the running root processes. What's the point in blocking normal users from using kshutdown, when they can already easily shut down the system from the desktop? Like Raymond already mentioned, kshutdown probably uses the exact same method as the desktop itself to shut down the system. This limitation of kshutdown is very half-baked anyway. If I start kshutdown using the .desktop file e.g. via the launch menu I'll be prompted for the root password. But if I run the 'kshutdown' excecutable from konsole, kshutdown runs fine and will shut down the system for me without requiring the root password. So this whole root thing for kshutdown is not stopping anyone from shutting down systems (via kde desktop menus or widgets or even kshutdown), it's just annoying people who like to use kshutdown. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, 12 August 2016 20:12:52 BST Martin Schlander wrote:
Fredag den 12. august 2016 10:53:22 skrev Darryl Gregorash:
On 12/08/16 09:11 AM, Markus Slopianka wrote:
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 10:28:34 CEST Anton Aylward wrote:
"non default" meaning what, exactly?
That if you simply click through Yast during installation, there is only one user account at the end.
Non-defayult for you might be default for someone else.
No, openSUSE has one default in that case. Everything else is post- installation customization.
Sure, go ahead and to that on a heavily multi-user ISP service that allows ssh & X-over-ssh access as many do, and see how welcome you are.
I betcha the "default" they have is a very different from the "default' you have on your home system, and if they are in any way competent they have taken measures to ensure you can't shut-down the system and can't become root.
Yeah… See, I don't really care about the strange arguments you come up with. I made an argument that KShutdown's desktop icon in openSUSE should not override the upstream defaults and mandate that it runs only as root. openSUSE's KDE team agreed with me on that matter, so the discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned.
Markus, Try, as an ordinary user with no special privileges, to KILL or even INT a process you do not own, either in KSysguard or in htop. You need to provide the root password to do it.
When you shutdown the system, processes *should* be stopped cleanly, meaning they are first given a SIGINT. If that fails, then they are KILLed, which certainly does *not* result in a clean shutdown of that process.
Everything Anton has said makes perfect sense; there is nothing "strange" about it: you cannot cleanly and safely shut down the system unless you first gain root privileges. What is so difficult about that to understand?
Maybe that 99.9% of users, including myself, shut down the system every day with a couple of clicks and normal user priviliges - including the running root processes. What's the point in blocking normal users from using kshutdown, when they can already easily shut down the system from the desktop? Like Raymond already mentioned, kshutdown probably uses the exact same method as the desktop itself to shut down the system.
This limitation of kshutdown is very half-baked anyway. If I start kshutdown using the .desktop file e.g. via the launch menu I'll be prompted for the root password. But if I run the 'kshutdown' excecutable from konsole, kshutdown runs fine and will shut down the system for me without requiring the root password.
So this whole root thing for kshutdown is not stopping anyone from shutting down systems (via kde desktop menus or widgets or even kshutdown), it's just annoying people who like to use kshutdown. If you are a single user machine, its not an issue. If you have multiple users logged into the same machine the its a big issue if one user can shut the system down while other people are working.
-- Qt: 5.6.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.24.0 kf5-config: 1.0 KDE Plasma: 5.7.3 Kernel: 4.7.0-1-default "openSUSE Tumbleweed (20160811) (x86_64)" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Lørdag den 13. august 2016 10:20:35 skrev ianseeks:
If you are a single user machine, its not an issue. If you have multiple users logged into the same machine the its a big issue if one user can shut the system down while other people are working.
And how does crippling kshutdown a little bit solve that issue? It doesn't. The sysadmin on that system will need to take other steps regardless if kshutdown is slightly crippled or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/13/2016 07:23 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Lørdag den 13. august 2016 10:20:35 skrev ianseeks:
If you are a single user machine, its not an issue. If you have multiple users logged into the same machine the its a big issue if one user can shut the system down while other people are working.
And how does crippling kshutdown a little bit solve that issue?
It doesn't. The sysadmin on that system will need to take other steps regardless if kshutdown is slightly crippled or not.
I take I that you're now admitting that an regular/ordinary (aka 'non privileged') user in a multi-user environment should not be able to shut down the multi-user environment. As for "crippling a little bit", I think you still fail to understand. Its not about 'crippling", and certainly not "a little bit". its about "completely removing the ability" for an ordinary user to shut down or kill another user's processes. AT ALL. IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER. If the sysadmins choose to do this by simply removing such programs, well that's one way, but that won't stop a user coding up and compiling his own program that does a kill(2). Better to use polkit and capabilities. There's no "slightly" going on in this kind of situation. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Mandag den 15. august 2016 09:44:29 skrev Anton Aylward:
On 08/13/2016 07:23 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Lørdag den 13. august 2016 10:20:35 skrev ianseeks:
If you are a single user machine, its not an issue. If you have multiple users logged into the same machine the its a big issue if one user can shut the system down while other people are working.
And how does crippling kshutdown a little bit solve that issue?
It doesn't. The sysadmin on that system will need to take other steps regardless if kshutdown is slightly crippled or not.
I take I that you're now admitting that an regular/ordinary (aka 'non privileged') user in a multi-user environment should not be able to shut down the multi-user environment.
As for "crippling a little bit", I think you still fail to understand. Its not about 'crippling", and certainly not "a little bit". its about "completely removing the ability" for an ordinary user to shut down or kill another user's processes. AT ALL. IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER.
You seem to fail to understand that 1) Even with this crippling the ordinary user can still shut down the system using kshutdown if he starts kshutdown by running the kshutdown executable directly instead of using the .desktop file to start kshutdown. 2) Out of the box an ordinary user can shut down the system in dozens of different ways besides kshutdown. So what is gained by crippling the kshutdown package? Nothing. If a sysadmin wants to prevent people from shutting down the system, he needs to achieve this in a different way than crippling of individual packages. It's not like kshutdown does any special hacks or circumvents other stuff to shut down the system, which might legitimize giving it special treatment. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, 15 August 2016 17:12:21 BST Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 15. august 2016 09:44:29 skrev Anton Aylward:
On 08/13/2016 07:23 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Lørdag den 13. august 2016 10:20:35 skrev ianseeks:
If you are a single user machine, its not an issue. If you have multiple users logged into the same machine the its a big issue if one user can shut the system down while other people are working.
And how does crippling kshutdown a little bit solve that issue?
It doesn't. The sysadmin on that system will need to take other steps regardless if kshutdown is slightly crippled or not.
I take I that you're now admitting that an regular/ordinary (aka 'non privileged') user in a multi-user environment should not be able to shut down the multi-user environment.
As for "crippling a little bit", I think you still fail to understand. Its not about 'crippling", and certainly not "a little bit". its about "completely removing the ability" for an ordinary user to shut down or kill another user's processes. AT ALL. IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER.
You seem to fail to understand that
1) Even with this crippling the ordinary user can still shut down the system using kshutdown if he starts kshutdown by running the kshutdown executable directly instead of using the .desktop file to start kshutdown. On systemsettings/login screen, you can configure who can shutdown the system via KDM i.e. Everyone, root or nobody. Does it check if KDM is configured to allow "everyone" to shutdown thereby allowing it to work when accessed directly?
2) Out of the box an ordinary user can shut down the system in dozens of different ways besides kshutdown. So what is gained by crippling the kshutdown package? Nothing.
If a sysadmin wants to prevent people from shutting down the system, he needs to achieve this in a different way than crippling of individual packages. It's not like kshutdown does any special hacks or circumvents other stuff to shut down the system, which might legitimize giving it special treatment.
-- Qt: 5.6.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.25.0 kf5-config: 1.0 KDE Plasma: 5.7.3 Kernel: 4.7.0-1-default "openSUSE Tumbleweed (20160813) (x86_64)" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Mandag den 15. august 2016 17:47:26 skrev ianseeks:
On Monday, 15 August 2016 17:12:21 BST Martin Schlander wrote:
1) Even with this crippling the ordinary user can still shut down the system using kshutdown if he starts kshutdown by running the kshutdown executable directly instead of using the .desktop file to start kshutdown.
On systemsettings/login screen, you can configure who can shutdown the system via KDM i.e. Everyone, root or nobody. Does it check if KDM is configured to allow "everyone" to shutdown thereby allowing it to work when accessed directly?
I'm quite sure it does the exact same thing technically behind the scenes as clicking shutdown in the kde launch menu, or the logout plasmoid or any other way you can shutdown from KDE. So I guess that would mean yes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Is this some kind of "I need to have the last word and spam the list no matter what" kind of thread now? The actual topic is settled. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/15/2016 11:12 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 15. august 2016 09:44:29 skrev Anton Aylward:
As for "crippling a little bit", I think you still fail to understand. Its not about 'crippling", and certainly not "a little bit". its about "completely removing the ability" for an ordinary user to shut down or kill another user's processes. AT ALL. IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER.
You seem to fail to understand that
Sorry, that is not the case. You haven't read what I wrote.
1) Even with this crippling the ordinary user can still shut down the system using kshutdown if he starts kshutdown by running the kshutdown executable directly instead of using the .desktop file to start kshutdown.
You haven't read what I wrote - specifically on this, or in general. Regular readers will now that I'm quite happy to deal with matters on a CLI level rather than just press icons, and as ian goes on to mention a screen in systemsetting, what's "under the hood" for KDE & KDM, and I presume there is similar consideration for the Gnome style desktops, ultimately leads to 'systemctl'. This is a systemd based version of Linux, after all! If you allow the user access to systemctl. or any of its aliases (see the man pages that I've referred to in past postings) or any of the things that symlink to it (ibid) and don't strap those down with some soft of access control (restrict execution, remove from a chroot'd environment, use polkit, use the system capabilities restrictions on user & user child processes) then yes, the user can do a shutdown by other means that kshutdown. I really don't understand why you're obsessing about kshutdown when its just an artefact of the way - one way - that KDE can be configured, when other DMs exist. Look under the hood. Shutting down the system is about communicating with the init process, and that might merely involve the system bus. probably something like this: qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer org.kde.KSMServerInterface.logout -1 -1 -1 Well if you want a simple logout qdbus org.kde.ksmserver /KSMServer logout 0 0 0 But since you're so obsessed with kshutdown, you probably haven't notices such things. never mind the option on the panel geko popup men or the option on the login screen. Which, hey don't you know, all end up, "under the hood", doing pretty much the same thing and ending up with system controls one way or another.
2) Out of the box an ordinary user can shut down the system in dozens of different ways besides kshutdown. So what is gained by crippling the kshutdown package? Nothing.
Its not about "crippling", its about disabling PROPERLY the underlying mechanism. If you're unfamiliar with such things as polkit and capabilities, start with the man pages then google around a bit. maybe you can come out of this meal cul-de-sac of obsessing about kshutdown you have. Anyway, I'm glad you are finally admitting that there are other ways to shut down the system. Any reasonable sysadmin, and especially those running multi-user systems, will know of these, and, as I say, also know about polkit, chroot, and capabilities, and use this to disable - not cripple - those other avenues of disruption. -- wind catches lily scatt'ring petals to the wind segmentation fault -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Freitag, 12. August 2016 10:53:22 CEST Darryl Gregorash wrote:
Everything Anton has said makes perfect sense; there is nothing "strange" about it: you cannot cleanly and safely shut down the system unless you first gain root privileges. What is so difficult about that to understand?
Feel free to execute "kdesu kshutdown" if you want that. I can write you a desktop file if you can't do it yourself. Heck, I might even create a very special "kshutdown-asroot" package, containing only the desktop file, if it makes you happy… -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Anton Aylward -
Bruno Friedmann -
Carlos E. R. -
Darryl Gregorash -
ianseeks -
Markus Slopianka -
Martin Schlander -
Raymond Wooninck -
Roman Bysh