Reboot. Lets start again, this time organized
Hey, we have started off not very organized and I would like to change that now. I think we need to make this a purposeful discussion that has rules, moderation and an end. Otherwise we'll never get anywhere. So here is how I want us to do it. 0. In all of this we are trying to find compromise and consensus. This is not about getting it your way. We need to build something together! 1. Before we discuss anything we pick someone who moderates the discussions. The moderator is supposed to summarize, track progress and call an end to the discussion. We need results! 2. We discuss single aspects of the foundation. Not the whole foundation and all it's aspects at once. The list of items to discuss is tracked on the wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation/Topics We need to focus! 3. We discuss these aspects by trying to make clear our intentions and by agreeing on the important points. Not by hammering out elaborated paragraphs of text. Bullet points first, formulations later. We need to keep track of the important matters! 4. The discussion is limited to arguments. That means if you agree you don't say anything. NO "I like this!" MAILS. If you disagree with something you make an argument against it. NO "I don't like this!" MAILS. We need to keep the length of the discussion to a minimum! 5. We only re-visit a previous discussed topic if the _result_ of a discussion of another topic is that we need to. When we agree on something it's the way it is. We need to be able to rely on things! Comments on those rules? Any additional rule you would want to see? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 28/01/2011 13:03, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Comments on those rules? Any additional rule you would want to see?
only set a moderator if it's necessary. Hope it will not here. I get a start for the first point in an other post jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 01/28/2011 01:52 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 28/01/2011 13:03, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Comments on those rules? Any additional rule you would want to see?
only set a moderator if it's necessary. Hope it will not here.
This is a typical "I don't like this" mail. Please make an argument why you don't want a moderator that does the things I proposed. Sorry but "I don't like this" just doesn't cut it :)
I get a start for the first point in an other post
Sorry I don't understand. Can you rephrase this sentence please? Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 28/01/2011 13:57, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
This is a typical "I don't like this" mail. Please make an argument why you don't want a moderator that does the things I proposed. Sorry but "I don't like this" just doesn't cut it :)
may be I was too attracted by the word 'moderator', If you seek for somebody to summarize a discussion, may be the better is to let do this the one that launch the discussion? I can do for the one I did (location)
I get a start for the first point in an other post
Sorry I don't understand. Can you rephrase this sentence please?
first point of the list on the wiki page. Should be obvious, now that you should have received the mail :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 01/28/2011 02:21 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 28/01/2011 13:57, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
This is a typical "I don't like this" mail. Please make an argument why you don't want a moderator that does the things I proposed. Sorry but "I don't like this" just doesn't cut it :)
may be I was too attracted by the word 'moderator', If you seek for somebody to summarize a discussion
Yes I wrote what the moderator is supposed to do didn't I? :)
may be the better is to let do this the one that launch the discussion?
That would be a nice way to let everybody know who the moderator is and would prevent too many threads.
I get a start for the first point in an other post
Sorry I don't understand. Can you rephrase this sentence please?
first point of the list on the wiki page. Should be obvious, now that you should have received the mail :-)
Yes it is. We (you and me) didn't even agree on these rules before you fired it off. This is leading nowhere... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 28/01/2011 14:37, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Hey,
Yes it is. We (you and me) didn't even agree on these rules before you fired it off. This is leading nowhere...
you said you don't want "I agree" mail :-) I have nothing to add jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 01/28/2011 02:52 PM, jdd wrote:
Le 28/01/2011 14:37, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Yes it is. We (you and me) didn't even agree on these rules before you fired it off. This is leading nowhere...
you said you don't want "I agree" mail :-)
We have also said that a moderator needs to call an end to the discussion. By now (per your idea) this is for the rules me. And the rules say that we only discuss a single aspect at a time. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Le vendredi 28 janvier 2011, à 13:03 +0100, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
1. Before we discuss anything we pick someone who moderates the discussions. The moderator is supposed to summarize, track progress and call an end to the discussion. We need results!
Since I can't just say "I agree" without breaking the rules ;-), let me suggest that the moderator also specifies a deadline for each topic being discussed. Saying "this discussion will end in 5 days, and I'll summarize the results after that" should, hopefully, lead to better results. Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Henne, To try to bring some focus to the topics and to help everyone know which topics are currently being discussed and who the moderator is, I updated the wiki pages. On the main page, I created entries for a moderator, status and results for each topic. Both you and suseROCKS had AI from previous board meetings, so I put you on as moderators, then I spread the board members around the topics to give us some default moderators, we can discuss that. I also moved some of the details that were on the portal:Foundation page onto a couple other pages to help cleanly divide out the topics and to give us room for the content. -Alan
On 1/28/2011 at 05:03 AM, in message <4D42B0A4.4060202@opensuse.org>, Henne Vogelsang <hvogel@opensuse.org> wrote: Hey,
we have started off not very organized and I would like to change that now. I think we need to make this a purposeful discussion that has rules, moderation and an end. Otherwise we'll never get anywhere.
So here is how I want us to do it.
0. In all of this we are trying to find compromise and consensus. This is not about getting it your way. We need to build something together!
1. Before we discuss anything we pick someone who moderates the discussions. The moderator is supposed to summarize, track progress and call an end to the discussion. We need results!
2. We discuss single aspects of the foundation. Not the whole foundation and all it's aspects at once. The list of items to discuss is tracked on the wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation/Topics We need to focus!
3. We discuss these aspects by trying to make clear our intentions and by agreeing on the important points. Not by hammering out elaborated paragraphs of text. Bullet points first, formulations later. We need to keep track of the important matters!
4. The discussion is limited to arguments. That means if you agree you don't say anything. NO "I like this!" MAILS. If you disagree with something you make an argument against it. NO "I don't like this!" MAILS. We need to keep the length of the discussion to a minimum!
5. We only re-visit a previous discussed topic if the _result_ of a discussion of another topic is that we need to. When we agree on something it's the way it is. We need to be able to rely on things!
Comments on those rules? Any additional rule you would want to see?
Henne
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 28/01/2011 13:03, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Hey,
we have started off not very organized and I would like to change that
don't sems to be many people here :-( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Le 28/01/2011 13:03, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :
Hey,
we have started off not very organized and I would like to change that
don't sems to be many people here :-(
Plenty, but we seem to a bit short of topics to discuss. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/02/2011 12:47, Per Jessen a écrit :
Plenty, but we seem to a bit short of topics to discuss.
do you think that any subject of Henne post are done? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Le 04/02/2011 12:47, Per Jessen a écrit :
Plenty, but we seem to a bit short of topics to discuss.
do you think that any subject of Henne post are done?
jdd
I guess this is the list you're referring to: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation/Topics According to that the currently open topics are: * Objective of the Foundation * Copyrights and Trademarks I haven't seen a lot of input on either. To me personally, the important topics are: - legal form - jurisdiction and I agree with this: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation_legal_form -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
To me personally, the important topics are:
- legal form - jurisdiction
and I agree with this: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation_legal_form
Forgot to say - for purely practical reasons, I would have preferred a jurisdiction where all the paperwork could have been done in English, but assuming the practical issues (translation) can be overcome without too much effort, I think an eV in Germany is a good solution with many practical, possible legislative too, advantages. I think it is also a way of paying homage to the openSUSE origins. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/02/2011 16:18, Per Jessen a écrit :
Per Jessen wrote:
To me personally, the important topics are:
- legal form - jurisdiction
and I agree with this: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation_legal_form
Forgot to say - for purely practical reasons, I would have preferred a jurisdiction where all the paperwork could have been done in English, but assuming the practical issues (translation) can be overcome without too much effort, I think an eV in Germany is a good solution with many practical, possible legislative too, advantages. I think it is also a way of paying homage to the openSUSE origins.
/Per
I have nearly the same opinion. However, I would like to see more people giving they opinion (including a simple +1, whatever Henne said :-) no answer can be simple lack of interest, when I personnally think creating the Foundation should be our primary goal;.. (after making 11.4, of course) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
On 04/02/11 16:10, jdd wrote:
However, I would like to see more people giving they opinion (including a simple +1, whatever Henne said :-)
no answer can be simple lack of interest, when I personnally think creating the Foundation should be our primary goal;.. (after making 11.4, of course)
Exactly why I am just lurking on this list: we've been explicitly asked not to send "+1" and "NAK" type responses, so since these were my main reaction to most of the suggestions so far I've kept stumm. It would be interesting to know how many subscribers there are to this list, as pointed out earlier in this thread there aren't many contributing ATM. -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Richard (MQ) wrote:
On 04/02/11 16:10, jdd wrote:
However, I would like to see more people giving they opinion (including a simple +1, whatever Henne said :-)
no answer can be simple lack of interest, when I personnally think creating the Foundation should be our primary goal;.. (after making 11.4, of course)
Exactly why I am just lurking on this list: we've been explicitly asked not to send "+1" and "NAK" type responses, so since these were my main reaction to most of the suggestions so far I've kept stumm.
It would be interesting to know how many subscribers there are to this list, as pointed out earlier in this thread there aren't many contributing ATM.
The stats should have been here, but I got a 404: http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/opensuse-foundation/opensuse-foundation.html... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/02/2011 18:13, Per Jessen a écrit :
The stats should have been here, but I got a 404:
http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/opensuse-foundation/opensuse-foundation.html...
http://lists.opensuse.org/stats/ don't seems to list any "foundation" list :-( -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
* Richard (MQ) <osl2008@googlemail.com> [02-04-11 12:04]:
It would be interesting to know how many subscribers there are to this list, as pointed out earlier in this thread there aren't many contributing ATM.
Ping, not +1 :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Le 04/02/2011 16:18, Per Jessen a écrit :
Per Jessen wrote:
To me personally, the important topics are:
- legal form - jurisdiction
and I agree with this: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Foundation_legal_form
Forgot to say - for purely practical reasons, I would have preferred a jurisdiction where all the paperwork could have been done in English, but assuming the practical issues (translation) can be overcome without too much effort, I think an eV in Germany is a good solution with many practical, possible legislative too, advantages. I think it is also a way of paying homage to the openSUSE origins.
/Per
I have nearly the same opinion.
However, I would like to see more people giving they opinion (including a simple +1, whatever Henne said :-)
+1 I also think the '+1' is important, never mind what Henne thinks.
no answer can be simple lack of interest,
Exactement! -- Per Jessen, Zürich (6.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le vendredi 04 février 2011, à 17:10 +0100, jdd a écrit :
However, I would like to see more people giving they opinion (including a simple +1, whatever Henne said :-)
Just assume that all the people who don't reply agree, with a +1. If they disagree, they should raise their voices with an argument. When there's no argument left, it means we all agree. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
* Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> [02-04-11 17:47]:
Le vendredi 04 février 2011, à 17:10 +0100, jdd a écrit :
However, I would like to see more people giving they opinion (including a simple +1, whatever Henne said :-)
Just assume that all the people who don't reply agree, with a +1. If they disagree, they should raise their voices with an argument. When there's no argument left, it means we all agree.
I believe the point is more about knowing what *all* entails. How many are present and considering? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
On 2/4/11 4:11 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
jdd wrote:
Le 04/02/2011 12:47, Per Jessen a écrit :
Plenty, but we seem to a bit short of topics to discuss.
do you think that any subject of Henne post are done?
jdd
I guess this is the list you're referring to:
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Foundation/Topics
According to that the currently open topics are:
* Objective of the Foundation * Copyrights and Trademarks
I haven't seen a lot of input on either.
To me personally, the important topics are:
- legal form - jurisdiction
and I agree with this:
Hi, Henne has been out of work sick and now we are enroute to FOSDEM. I am sure this will get some attention real soon. Cheers, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 04/02/2011 17:26, Peter Linnell a écrit :
Henne has been out of work sick and now we are enroute to FOSDEM. I am sure this will get some attention real soon.
! hope he will be better soon. Good FOSDEM :-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
On Friday, January 28, 2011 06:03:48 am Henne Vogelsang wrote:
4. The discussion is limited to arguments. That means if you agree you don't say anything. NO "I like this!" MAILS. If you disagree with something you make an argument against it. NO "I don't like this!" MAILS. We need to keep the length of the discussion to a minimum!
In discussion like this there are cases where we want to follow what majority is for, so banning +1 and -1 emails can be counterproductive, as some comments already noted. Maybe we should make use of forums.o.o or connect.o.o voting facilities. Both store poll results, so reference is available for later use, and this list will be kept clean of emails that are nothing more then a vote. Polls can be created by moderators only. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Le 06/02/2011 17:05, Rajko M. a écrit : Maybe we should make use of forums.o.o or connect.o.o voting facilities.
Both store poll results, so reference is available for later use, and this list will be kept clean of emails that are nothing more then a vote. Polls can be created by moderators only.
or open a bugreport in bugzilla and assign it to the people that asks (me in this case)? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
Let's say that some discussions seems to show that the German laws are not the same as French (place here your prefered country). So to have an idea of what we need we first have to read some english version of the German laws and rules dealing about the kind of company we try to build. Do you know of some already done translation (URL?), else can you point some pages that should be translated (may be with the help of the translation team) I'm really unable to read any german, sorry :-(( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
jdd wrote:
Let's say that some discussions seems to show that the German laws are not the same as French (place here your prefered country).
So to have an idea of what we need we first have to read some english version of the German laws and rules dealing about the kind of company we try to build.
Do you know of some already done translation (URL?), else can you point some pages that should be translated (may be with the help of the translation team)
I'm really unable to read any german, sorry :-((
No reason to apologise, it was bound to be one of the first stumbling blocks. Maybe google can help with some of it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-foundation+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Alan Clark -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Peter Linnell -
Rajko M. -
Richard (MQ) -
Vincent Untz