[opensuse-factory] opensuse factory (2017.02.24) want to remove not installed packages.....
with TW i always get this... The following 4 applications are going to be REMOVED: Cuttlefish Desktop "Grouping Plasmoid" "System Tray" but packages are not installed... ______________________________________________________________________________ My Twitter Page: http://twitter.com/OpenSimFan My Facebook page (be my friend, please ) http://www.facebook.com/andre.verwijs My Google+ page (follow me please ) André Verwijs - Google+ https://plus.google.com/111310545842863442992 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
André Verwijs composed on 2017-02-25 09:00 (UTC+0100):
with TW i always get this...
The following 4 applications are going to be REMOVED: Cuttlefish Desktop "Grouping Plasmoid" "System Tray"
but packages are not installed...
Right, they're not. Applications and packages are not the same thing. Only YaST knows what applications are. Zypper only guesses what to do, and doesn't actually do anything except confuse users with useless messages. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 03:26 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
So, from now on we will have to call you zypper - because what you say is wrong and is confusing our users. Half-jokes aside, I already created different mails with probably about the same content as to what is to come next: the FACTs to this topic, no half truth, no speculation. The message as seen by Andre can have basically two reasons - both of them being bugs - in different systsms: * The user has additional repositories enabled bysided openSUSE Tumbleweed and said repository does not provide complete/valid AppStream metadata. This is currently the case for pretty much all the OBS repos - as the process to extract this information out of packages into the repomd metastructure is more than fragile and is very unreloable. If anybody wants to work on this, claim https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/15436 If the user has NO 3rd party repos enabled and sees the messages on a pure Tumbleweed system, then the user is caught by a packaging bug. * Whenever a Tumbleweed snapshot is processed, a new set of AppStream metadata is being produced using AppStream Builder. This tool parses all the RPMs and extracts the requires information. For this, it looks for .appdata.xml and .metainfo.xml files inside /usr/share/appdata and /usr/share/metainfo (the two directories are equally treated, .appdata.xml and .metainfo.xml are allowed in BOTH locations. The latter is slowly superseding the first, as the name is more suitable for the long tirm goal of AppStream) For the 'System Tray' one mentioned by Andree for example there is already a bug files in bugzill, see http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1024326 Most common issues for such bugs I noted down in a blob post a while back http://dominique.leuenberger.net/blog/2016/07/how-to-fix-my-application -does-not-show-up-in-software-centers/ Now, to get back to zypper, eh, Felix' statements: the component in the software stack that knows about this is libzypp - used by zypper and yast equally. zypper (not Felix, the real zypper) is the one that understands this and informs the user about it; you can even query and install 'applications' (which is not the same as packages - often the names match though) using zypper. A list of all applications known: zypper se -t application Yast, so far, does not have any representation of the concept of 'Applications' - it only treats 'Packages' There are other tools, so called 'Software Centers' that focus solely on Applications and remove the concept of packages from the visible pool for the user: a 'User' generally should care for 'WHat do I want to do' and not 'how the heck did the packager call this and that'; and he needs visual appealing representation. We currently have these Software Centers in openSUSE Tumbleweed: * GNOME Software * KDE Discover I'm sure others will follow suite (I thought I had seen a 3rd one already pass by) In the hopes that we will now STOP spreading false claims on this topic: remember this mail, feel free to reference it whenever a similar question comes up. And if you see such things and can confirm it is NOT 3rd parties interfering here: file bugs and have this fixed! And as Stats are nice: http://gs-stats.opensuse.org shows a trend graph over how many 'applications' are known inside openSUSE Tumbleweed Cheers, Dominique
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar composed on 2017-02-25 10:18 (UTC+0100):
On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 03:26 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
So, from now on we will have to call you zypper - because what you say is wrong and is confusing our users.
So, applications and packages *are* the same thing? I can only guess I've seen the Firefox application get installed and uninstalled over a hundred times. (Hint: on most here, MozillaFirefox is not installed, while firefox-esr is.) Translated, what I wrote amounts to there's nothing any mere mortal user can or needs to do about those messages besides ignore them, while those less mortal might be able to help get the bugs fixed. :-p ...
Every one of my installations has at least one Mozilla repo enabled. Most have Packman.
In the hopes that we will now STOP spreading false claims on this topic: remember this mail, feel free to reference it whenever a similar
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2017-02/msg00608.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2017-02-25 a las 04:47 -0500, Felix Miata escribió:
No. You could say "I want to install the libre office writer", which is an application. And you do, not needing to know which packages need to be installed. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAliy2IcACgkQja8UbcUWM1z8IQEAgla1t62DAUDu3cgEJAD4Vah4 bFI/Cf7CPLxtbeVbAjoA+wfa+nFzQpbIB6XuTZiJZDwngms8moDWOHI/bW1sYsou =h96f -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-02-26 14:30 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata composed:
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar composed on 2017-02-25 10:18 (UTC+0100):
On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 03:26 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
So, from now on we will have to call you zypper - because what you say is wrong and is confusing our users.
So, applications and packages *are* the same thing?
No.
There are multiple language failures here. Your response, using confusing grammar, is restating a portion of what I originally wrote. Dominique wrote in effect that nothing I wrote was correct. I replied WRT a single obviously correct point, which should have generated a clarification from Dominique about what part(s) was/were and what part(s) was/were not wrong, but did not, at least as yet. More to the point, when I'm using zypper, I'm working with rpm packages, and couldn't care less whether or which include anything which someone defines as an "application". Seeing a message that some versionless Firefox "application" is being removed, or installed, at the same time as a message that the already installed firefox-esr is being upgraded is nothing but confusion, and thus useless, unless generating confusion is the goal of multiple monikers for single tools. Is it possible that there is or can be added some option in zypp.conf or zypper.conf that can suppress messages about "applications" when using zypper? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sonntag, 26. Februar 2017 15:27:02 CET Felix Miata wrote:
When using zypper, you are working with packages, patterns, patches and applications. *You* don't care for applications, most users don't care for packages. The package providing the application Firefox is removed, and thus the information is correct. According to the provided metadata, the firefox-esr package does no longer provide an application called Firefox. Zypper can't just guess here, the application could also be removed because the application had been split to a differently named package. Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen home: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019 work: +49 2405 49936-424 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Stefan Bruens composed on 2017-02-27 00:26 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
download.use_deltarpm = false *I* am working only with packages. Zypper may be working with patterns or applications, but *I* am working exclusively with packages when I use al, rl, ll, in or rm.
*You* don't care for applications, most users don't care for packages.
I have a strong suspicion that this may not be true in this [opensuse-factory] context, which is Tumbleweed, particularly among those who use Zypper instead of YaST2. Among those who use YaST2 instead of Zypper, you may be correct. Is there data that says? How does it get decided which package(s) comprise(s) an "application"? Is Xorg an application? GDM? The kernel? A video driver? Mesa? KMix? Systemsettings5? Systemd? vlc-noX? As long as Zypper, like Aptitude and DNF, is considered a package management system rather than an application management system[1], it makes better sense to me to say it works with packages without any arbitrary additional characterization.
So, Joe OrdinaryUser searches "applications" and sees only that the rapidly morphing Firefox exists, but not its stable/LTS counterpart Firefox ESR, the only Firefox provided by standard repos of competing "LTS"-styled Gnu distros like Ubuntu, Mageia or CentOS. :-( [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_package_management_systems -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26/02/17 07:45 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
LOL! Another reason to despise Ubuntu then. They have 'apt-get' which most user think of as something that gets 'applications' for them, rather than it being an 'advanced packaging tool', which, compared to zypper, it isn't. Perhaps if you roll in apt-cache it some close... -- Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-27 01:45, Felix Miata wrote:
But you have to be aware of what zypper does, in order to use it reliably. Zypper will complain of errors with applications, regardless of you "only" using packages. And you must learn what to do.
How does it get decided which package(s) comprise(s) an "application"?
Packagers do.
It is both. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlizetMACgkQja8UbcUWM1xd9wD+Ir0/U1q8QJUKzSMVIdpqMnly wdU5ifKZ2cLybVzg0PQBAJv67TEtVXdNhp4pAeltJqE3OfNzA3O+1cyn/G6vlcXn =3Kh2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-02-27 02:03 (UTC+0100):
How does it get decided which package(s) comprise(s) an "application"?
Packagers do.
That's who, not how. Maybe missing or defective instructions as to how is why these messages exist, causing threads like $SUBJECT to occur.
Is Xorg an application? GDM? The kernel? A video driver? Mesa? KMix? Systemsettings5? Systemd? vlc-noX?
???
It is both.
Keyword: "say". Ultimately whatever comprises an "application" is only available to any normal user after the package management system has installed whatever packages comprise it and whatever it/they depend(s) on. I want some details, case in point, google-carlito-fonts: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2017-02/msg00817.html Installing an "application" shouldn't depend on a particular separate font package whose contents I never want to see or use. Same goes for Plasma requiring kde-oxygen-fonts when I already have more than enough fonts I do like already installed. Without details I would only some time after the fact discover what caused me to no longer see fonts I selected and expected being used. Zypper's been working well for me for the entirety of its existence. These "application" installation and removal messages only started appearing in zypper transactions the past year or two, or at least, I don't remember seeing them longer ago in my many years of use. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-27 02:55, Felix Miata wrote:
I know.
As I said, it is work in progress. As some other said (sorry, I do not remember who, it is 4 AM en route to bed after watching a Star Trek movie), the main repos contain the metadata for "applications". Extra repos may or may not. If you install a firefox package that doesn't contain metadata that says "I am the firefox application", then the package manager thinks that the package "firefox" is installed, but that the application "firefox" is missing. And thus it complains. The issue now is that now you have to fulfil both package and application dependencies.
I want some details, case in point, google-carlito-fonts: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2017-02/msg00817.html
I don't know. I know that I want much fewer fonts than I have, selecting one is a nightmare. Removing them is impossible, zypper complains.
I know. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAliznIYACgkQja8UbcUWM1xziQD+L9jfaJB9fY37Ys5jho2GB+dJ XO6roAj8STsKUrEGH1EBAKECtKPYdkbBdWEhWxM3Dl/f402kH0K9v381z+rqTrvF =lEeC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-02-27 04:27 (UTC+0100):
The issue now is that now you have to fulfil both package and application dependencies.
Exactly: anti-KISS complexity added to an already very complex process. :-(
I know that I want much fewer fonts than I have, selecting one is a nightmare. Removing them is impossible, zypper complains.
Zypp isn't the ultimate authority. Locking seems to work well enough oncethe requiring package is installed and rpm -e --nodeps has been run on the demanded desires/recommends/wants/suggests fonts "package". I've yet to encounter breakage on account of absence of installed oxygen or carlito fonts as long as other TTF and/or OTF fonts are available. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26/02/17 09:27 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Right on! The taxonomy isn't hierarchical and differentiated, if you want a technical statement of the situation. -- The Internet is not the greatest threat to information security; stupidity is the greatest threat to information security. -- Will Spencer <will.spencer@gte.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2017-02-26 a las 09:27 -0500, Felix Miata escribió:
Well, no. Zypper can also work with "applications". You could tell zypper that you want to install the application "writer", and zypper would figure out what rpms it needs to install to fulfill that request. This is work in progress, I do not know if zypper can or not do this yet. minas-tirith:~ # zypper se -t application writer ... S | Name | Summary | Type - --+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------+------------ | FocusWriter | Fullscreen word processor | application i | LibreOffice Writer | Word processor part of the LibreOffice productivity suite | application | MultiWriter | Write an ISO file to multiple USB devices at once | application minas-tirith:~ # minas-tirith:~ # zypper install -t application "LibreOffice Writer" ... Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... 'application:LibreOffice Writer' is already installed. No update candidate for 'application:LibreOffice Writer-.noarch'. The highest available version is already installed. Resolving package dependencies... Nothing to do. minas-tirith:~ # See? Zypper can also install "applications". :-) Try: zypper info -t application "LibreOffice Writer"
I agree that it is confusing.
Is it possible that there is or can be added some option in zypp.conf or zypper.conf that can suppress messages about "applications" when using zypper?
But devs want to iron out the issues with applications :-p - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlizbtQACgkQja8UbcUWM1yuXgD9Es3iG0AxtR01AFgzs9FgLVbX XP7iALab1wDSHh6wYXUBAJ27nBXEdeu4fw4bwa4QreMieuUFOQ7HRjiOfFs7aqrB =63Ow -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 25/02/17 04:47 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Ah, "names". What you're saying is that the name of the package and the name of what's in it are not always the same. That's not the same thing at all. Some packages only have data, not applications. Some packages have a binary but it can't be run; it may _only_ be a library or it may _need_ a library that's in another package. Sometimes what you get is a shell executable. Or a JAR file that need the Java runtime to do anything with it. Trivializing with glib one-liners isn't going to work here. -- Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
André Verwijs composed on 2017-02-25 09:00 (UTC+0100):
with TW i always get this...
The following 4 applications are going to be REMOVED: Cuttlefish Desktop "Grouping Plasmoid" "System Tray"
but packages are not installed...
Right, they're not. Applications and packages are not the same thing. Only YaST knows what applications are. Zypper only guesses what to do, and doesn't actually do anything except confuse users with useless messages. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 03:26 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
So, from now on we will have to call you zypper - because what you say is wrong and is confusing our users. Half-jokes aside, I already created different mails with probably about the same content as to what is to come next: the FACTs to this topic, no half truth, no speculation. The message as seen by Andre can have basically two reasons - both of them being bugs - in different systsms: * The user has additional repositories enabled bysided openSUSE Tumbleweed and said repository does not provide complete/valid AppStream metadata. This is currently the case for pretty much all the OBS repos - as the process to extract this information out of packages into the repomd metastructure is more than fragile and is very unreloable. If anybody wants to work on this, claim https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/15436 If the user has NO 3rd party repos enabled and sees the messages on a pure Tumbleweed system, then the user is caught by a packaging bug. * Whenever a Tumbleweed snapshot is processed, a new set of AppStream metadata is being produced using AppStream Builder. This tool parses all the RPMs and extracts the requires information. For this, it looks for .appdata.xml and .metainfo.xml files inside /usr/share/appdata and /usr/share/metainfo (the two directories are equally treated, .appdata.xml and .metainfo.xml are allowed in BOTH locations. The latter is slowly superseding the first, as the name is more suitable for the long tirm goal of AppStream) For the 'System Tray' one mentioned by Andree for example there is already a bug files in bugzill, see http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1024326 Most common issues for such bugs I noted down in a blob post a while back http://dominique.leuenberger.net/blog/2016/07/how-to-fix-my-application -does-not-show-up-in-software-centers/ Now, to get back to zypper, eh, Felix' statements: the component in the software stack that knows about this is libzypp - used by zypper and yast equally. zypper (not Felix, the real zypper) is the one that understands this and informs the user about it; you can even query and install 'applications' (which is not the same as packages - often the names match though) using zypper. A list of all applications known: zypper se -t application Yast, so far, does not have any representation of the concept of 'Applications' - it only treats 'Packages' There are other tools, so called 'Software Centers' that focus solely on Applications and remove the concept of packages from the visible pool for the user: a 'User' generally should care for 'WHat do I want to do' and not 'how the heck did the packager call this and that'; and he needs visual appealing representation. We currently have these Software Centers in openSUSE Tumbleweed: * GNOME Software * KDE Discover I'm sure others will follow suite (I thought I had seen a 3rd one already pass by) In the hopes that we will now STOP spreading false claims on this topic: remember this mail, feel free to reference it whenever a similar question comes up. And if you see such things and can confirm it is NOT 3rd parties interfering here: file bugs and have this fixed! And as Stats are nice: http://gs-stats.opensuse.org shows a trend graph over how many 'applications' are known inside openSUSE Tumbleweed Cheers, Dominique
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar composed on 2017-02-25 10:18 (UTC+0100):
On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 03:26 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
So, from now on we will have to call you zypper - because what you say is wrong and is confusing our users.
So, applications and packages *are* the same thing? I can only guess I've seen the Firefox application get installed and uninstalled over a hundred times. (Hint: on most here, MozillaFirefox is not installed, while firefox-esr is.) Translated, what I wrote amounts to there's nothing any mere mortal user can or needs to do about those messages besides ignore them, while those less mortal might be able to help get the bugs fixed. :-p ...
Every one of my installations has at least one Mozilla repo enabled. Most have Packman.
In the hopes that we will now STOP spreading false claims on this topic: remember this mail, feel free to reference it whenever a similar
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2017-02/msg00608.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2017-02-25 a las 04:47 -0500, Felix Miata escribió:
No. You could say "I want to install the libre office writer", which is an application. And you do, not needing to know which packages need to be installed. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAliy2IcACgkQja8UbcUWM1z8IQEAgla1t62DAUDu3cgEJAD4Vah4 bFI/Cf7CPLxtbeVbAjoA+wfa+nFzQpbIB6XuTZiJZDwngms8moDWOHI/bW1sYsou =h96f -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-02-26 14:30 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata composed:
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar composed on 2017-02-25 10:18 (UTC+0100):
On Sat, 2017-02-25 at 03:26 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:
So, from now on we will have to call you zypper - because what you say is wrong and is confusing our users.
So, applications and packages *are* the same thing?
No.
There are multiple language failures here. Your response, using confusing grammar, is restating a portion of what I originally wrote. Dominique wrote in effect that nothing I wrote was correct. I replied WRT a single obviously correct point, which should have generated a clarification from Dominique about what part(s) was/were and what part(s) was/were not wrong, but did not, at least as yet. More to the point, when I'm using zypper, I'm working with rpm packages, and couldn't care less whether or which include anything which someone defines as an "application". Seeing a message that some versionless Firefox "application" is being removed, or installed, at the same time as a message that the already installed firefox-esr is being upgraded is nothing but confusion, and thus useless, unless generating confusion is the goal of multiple monikers for single tools. Is it possible that there is or can be added some option in zypp.conf or zypper.conf that can suppress messages about "applications" when using zypper? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sonntag, 26. Februar 2017 15:27:02 CET Felix Miata wrote:
When using zypper, you are working with packages, patterns, patches and applications. *You* don't care for applications, most users don't care for packages. The package providing the application Firefox is removed, and thus the information is correct. According to the provided metadata, the firefox-esr package does no longer provide an application called Firefox. Zypper can't just guess here, the application could also be removed because the application had been split to a differently named package. Regards, Stefan -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen home: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019 work: +49 2405 49936-424 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Stefan Bruens composed on 2017-02-27 00:26 (UTC+0100):
Felix Miata wrote:
download.use_deltarpm = false *I* am working only with packages. Zypper may be working with patterns or applications, but *I* am working exclusively with packages when I use al, rl, ll, in or rm.
*You* don't care for applications, most users don't care for packages.
I have a strong suspicion that this may not be true in this [opensuse-factory] context, which is Tumbleweed, particularly among those who use Zypper instead of YaST2. Among those who use YaST2 instead of Zypper, you may be correct. Is there data that says? How does it get decided which package(s) comprise(s) an "application"? Is Xorg an application? GDM? The kernel? A video driver? Mesa? KMix? Systemsettings5? Systemd? vlc-noX? As long as Zypper, like Aptitude and DNF, is considered a package management system rather than an application management system[1], it makes better sense to me to say it works with packages without any arbitrary additional characterization.
So, Joe OrdinaryUser searches "applications" and sees only that the rapidly morphing Firefox exists, but not its stable/LTS counterpart Firefox ESR, the only Firefox provided by standard repos of competing "LTS"-styled Gnu distros like Ubuntu, Mageia or CentOS. :-( [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software_package_management_systems -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 26/02/17 07:45 PM, Felix Miata wrote:
LOL! Another reason to despise Ubuntu then. They have 'apt-get' which most user think of as something that gets 'applications' for them, rather than it being an 'advanced packaging tool', which, compared to zypper, it isn't. Perhaps if you roll in apt-cache it some close... -- Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effort of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favour of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes man to seek and to accept a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-27 01:45, Felix Miata wrote:
But you have to be aware of what zypper does, in order to use it reliably. Zypper will complain of errors with applications, regardless of you "only" using packages. And you must learn what to do.
How does it get decided which package(s) comprise(s) an "application"?
Packagers do.
It is both. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlizetMACgkQja8UbcUWM1xd9wD+Ir0/U1q8QJUKzSMVIdpqMnly wdU5ifKZ2cLybVzg0PQBAJv67TEtVXdNhp4pAeltJqE3OfNzA3O+1cyn/G6vlcXn =3Kh2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-02-27 02:03 (UTC+0100):
How does it get decided which package(s) comprise(s) an "application"?
Packagers do.
That's who, not how. Maybe missing or defective instructions as to how is why these messages exist, causing threads like $SUBJECT to occur.
Is Xorg an application? GDM? The kernel? A video driver? Mesa? KMix? Systemsettings5? Systemd? vlc-noX?
???
It is both.
Keyword: "say". Ultimately whatever comprises an "application" is only available to any normal user after the package management system has installed whatever packages comprise it and whatever it/they depend(s) on. I want some details, case in point, google-carlito-fonts: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2017-02/msg00817.html Installing an "application" shouldn't depend on a particular separate font package whose contents I never want to see or use. Same goes for Plasma requiring kde-oxygen-fonts when I already have more than enough fonts I do like already installed. Without details I would only some time after the fact discover what caused me to no longer see fonts I selected and expected being used. Zypper's been working well for me for the entirety of its existence. These "application" installation and removal messages only started appearing in zypper transactions the past year or two, or at least, I don't remember seeing them longer ago in my many years of use. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-27 02:55, Felix Miata wrote:
I know.
As I said, it is work in progress. As some other said (sorry, I do not remember who, it is 4 AM en route to bed after watching a Star Trek movie), the main repos contain the metadata for "applications". Extra repos may or may not. If you install a firefox package that doesn't contain metadata that says "I am the firefox application", then the package manager thinks that the package "firefox" is installed, but that the application "firefox" is missing. And thus it complains. The issue now is that now you have to fulfil both package and application dependencies.
I want some details, case in point, google-carlito-fonts: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2017-02/msg00817.html
I don't know. I know that I want much fewer fonts than I have, selecting one is a nightmare. Removing them is impossible, zypper complains.
I know. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAliznIYACgkQja8UbcUWM1xziQD+L9jfaJB9fY37Ys5jho2GB+dJ XO6roAj8STsKUrEGH1EBAKECtKPYdkbBdWEhWxM3Dl/f402kH0K9v381z+rqTrvF =lEeC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2017-02-27 04:27 (UTC+0100):
The issue now is that now you have to fulfil both package and application dependencies.
Exactly: anti-KISS complexity added to an already very complex process. :-(
I know that I want much fewer fonts than I have, selecting one is a nightmare. Removing them is impossible, zypper complains.
Zypp isn't the ultimate authority. Locking seems to work well enough oncethe requiring package is installed and rpm -e --nodeps has been run on the demanded desires/recommends/wants/suggests fonts "package". I've yet to encounter breakage on account of absence of installed oxygen or carlito fonts as long as other TTF and/or OTF fonts are available. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
André Verwijs -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar -
Felix Miata -
Stefan Bruens