-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-09-24 at 12:14 -0400, Richard Creighton wrote:

Direct from

http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports

It states and is enclosed in a box to emphasize it's importance:

Bugzilla is no replacement for support. Before reporting a bug, make sure that it is really a bug. If in doubt, discuss it on the mailing lists first (opensuse-factory or opensuse).

Exactly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq7yK0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Ui8wCeOCUP+0xi9QJ0fnyBkioqxoVM DKYAnioJA4Io9Q4D6T6g1Hjtfpvdxbfj =JOBg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 09:27, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Donnerstag 24 September 2009 schrieb Richard Creighton:

...

On Thursday 24 September 2009 11:20:37 am Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Then please file a bug and do not post here.

Stephen,

That was rude, No, it wasn't - I may be wrong, but I wasn't rude. Folks I think we need to take a step back and breathe deeply.

...

Direct from

http://en.opensuse.org/Submitting_Bug_Reports

It states and is enclosed in a box to emphasize it's importance:

Bugzilla is no replacement for support. Before reporting a bug, make sure  that it is really a bug. If in doubt, discuss it on the mailing lists  first (opensuse-factory or opensuse). Yeah, I guess this wiki page needs to be more clear that you should post your bug reports not up for discussions but ask a clear question.

He was stating an observation very pertinent to the milestone release.  If  you think it is a bug, then tell him to file a bug, if you don't think it  is a bug then thank him for the report and tell him it is normal and why  it is not a bug but don't brush him off by being rude.

OK, I'm grateful for you to do user report - I do not have the time to do it. And I see a lot of issues posted here, that no-one answers because noone has time to do read "some remarks".

If someone has an issue with bootloader, then where the hell is the problem in writing a mail that has the summary "problems with bootloader on T60"? This is definitely out of character for you. I think you could have phrased this better. I know that you want to see this list split up so that it can become more manageable for you. But until that time comes, I think you are going to have to bear with us.

ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Pablo Picasso - "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/pablo_picasso.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow write:

Am Freitag 25 September 2009 schrieb ne...:

...

This is definitely out of character for you. I think you could have phrased this better. I know that you want to see this list split up so that it can become more manageable for you. But until that time comes, I think you are going to have to bear with us.

The problem is: this is not about me. I can very well ignore "some remarks" and only reply to mails where I can see I can help by subject.

But if many developers do not even touch the list because of this, then it's a real problem for everyone - and this is exactly what the major echo was on the openSUSE conference.

As I said in the other thread: I do not want opensuse-factory be split up, I want developers to read stuff important for developers. It can be opensuse- factory, but only if everyone sticks to simple rules:

- use descriptive summariries - post a bug report if you're pretty sure it's a bug - if you don't want to use bugzilla, find another place to put your log files before you post (only attach small files) - post topics that are specific to subgroups, to their mailing lists - do not keep discussions endlessly

I think it's not asked too much from everyone. And if I have to be rude to get there, I will be.

Greetings, Stephan

I absolutely agree. I have often many work and check factory after week and there is too much threads, that it is not possible read all, so I only filter mail to keywords like bootloader, grub, lilo, repair and read threads if I can help or identify bug. This also require to write one mail to one topic. If mail with five problems appear, then it is hard to good catch this mail and also it is much harder to find If my help is needed. thanks -- Josef Reidinger YaST team maintainer of perl-Bootloader, YaST2-Repair, webyast modules language and time -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 25 September 2009 schrieb Basil Chupin:

I volunteered for my position. I gather that you are being paid for your position. If I am wrong then give up your volunteer position and let someone else do it who is more robust. If you are being paid then pull your finger out and earn the money you are being paid to promote the company you work for. Did you at least read what I wrote? I'm afraid you didn't, so I will be more concrete: THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME!!!

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-09-25 at 10:56 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote: ...

But if many developers do not even touch the list because of this, then it's a real problem for everyone - and this is exactly what the major echo was on the openSUSE conference.

As I said in the other thread: I do not want opensuse-factory be split up, I want developers to read stuff important for developers. It can be opensuse- factory, but only if everyone sticks to simple rules:

- use descriptive summariries

Absolutely.

- post a bug report if you're pretty sure it's a bug

Well, the point is, many of us post here precissely because we don't know if it is a bug. It could be misconfiguration, missing package, whatever. We request for comments... here. Bugzilla is not the place for that.

- if you don't want to use bugzilla, find another place to put your log files before you post (only attach small files)

Well, we, ie, you, could/should provide such a place, where we can upload screenshots and such, instead of an outside server full of commercials. At least for members, or longtime subscribers or whatever restriction.

- post topics that are specific to subgroups, to their mailing lists - do not keep discussions endlessly

Yep :-)

I think it's not asked too much from everyone. And if I have to be rude to get there, I will be.

Being rude will not get you anywere, IMO. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq94JgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X+BwCfbESEQeu3M7tqlK4qQcokCY8J YwgAnA5q2hiJWQR2UhxnE6tC+6pjbbK2 =J5em -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-09-26 at 15:32 +0200, houghi wrote:

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 11:36:23AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well, the point is, many of us post here precissely because we don't know if it is a bug. It could be misconfiguration, missing package, whatever. We request for comments... here. Bugzilla is not the place for that.

Another issue I have with Bugzilla is the fact that you have no idea how things are going. e.g. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=512990 Several months of nothing and that is not the only one.

I have some older than that :-p

So I can understand that people start thinking that bugzilla is not where any conversation takes place and then logicaly think they should go to a mailinglist.

Right. Or to a forum.

When people are pointed away from one place and do not get any reply in the place that they were pointed to, why would they bother?

True.

During the conference a lot was said about wanting more feedback from users. Well, the users would like to have feedback from the developers as well. Unfortunatly it is a two way street and as we have seen, developers are very good in communication, despite what they and others claim. ;-)

Absolutely, it is a two way stree. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq+HOYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X+BwCgluD61KisYZv2nY1bTRekb+zJ 4gcAnicniYW5knbkqZ3gyfoPuNDHmdrX =LAMe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 10:11:36AM -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Bugs are not "priority 1: urgent" because they affect to you !

I only did that out of frustration to see if there would be some reaction. Anyway, it was only an example. There are several more out there.

.. anyway .. took me 10 minutes of my weekend to fix your bug,

Thanks. Whish I would know how to do that.

it is not that hard! you may want to try yourself the next time !

OK, I hope we are back on topic again. How? That way I can solve things myself. Don't forget, what might be extremely easy for you might be very hard for other people. Please go easy on me. I am not a developer, I am not a programmer, I am not even a packager. I am just a user who tries to help, because people _with_ knowledge want to have feedback. houghi -- You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once. -- Robert A. Heinlein -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 26/09/09 12:15, houghi wrote:

I am just a user who tries to help, because people _with_ knowledge want to have feedback.

There is a huge difference between feedback and pressure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Donnerstag 24 September 2009 schrieb Richard Creighton:

...

On Thursday 24 September 2009 11:20:37 am Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

On Thursday 24 September 2009 07:23:43 James PEARSON wrote:

...

Hello all

I re-installed v11.2 on my T60 using the openSUSE-DVD-Build0268-i586.iso

...

...

IMO, this message should ***not*** happen

Then please file a bug and do not post here.

Greetings, Stephan

Stephen,

That was rude,

No, it wasn't - I may be wrong, but I wasn't rude.

You may not have meant it but to the normal reader it did sound rude - and typical of the abruptness afforded to anyone to who tries to present an honest comment about oS. BC -- Never run yourself down - let other people do it instead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-09-24 at 20:57 +0200, josef reidinger wrote:

Hi, it is not bug it is feature :) Main reason is that grub support this and that some users want this usage. For another bootloader like elilo or powerlilo there is only on option. If you choose more options then to each of selected place is installed bootloader code which allows you to boot. Advantage is that if you select e.g. boot from MBR and boot from boot and then want install next version or another system, which allows chainload then you can safety replace MBR and set as one boot option chainload to old bootloader boot sector and that loads your boot with old code that read old menu.lst.

That's an interesting feature... which is unknown to us users. It should be mentioned somewhere in Yast, perhaps the help text. I also thought it was a bug. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkq94TQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V7BgCeIL/2v7ZocI6yj/sZUcCXNO93 +hoAn16+ZqrLLhMDu4pjUsqvZNsHFfPI =NqAz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org