-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/19/2010 03:14 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag den 19. november 2010 20:54:11 skrev Jeff Mahoney:

...

The expressions on their faces when they see how many ridiculous hoops I need to jump through to configure the Packman repository and then replace the codecs changes to exasperation

You mean go to a website like opensuse-community.org or opensuse-guide.org, click on a codec 1-click, then click next a couple of times, accept vendor change. Done. Or copy/paste a couple of zypper commands.

I've been a SUSE/openSUSE user for 11 years and didn't know that the codec 1-click existed. That would be easy -- but how about actually making it easily available to the user? Having it on a web site out there - even one that's supposedly "obvious" is an extra step that most users don't even know about. gstreamer has a "go-find-a-plugin" component that doesn't even work. As for copying/pasting a couple of zypper commands, do you really think that's something I'm going to explain to my mom over the phone?

For comparison have these people ever tried finding a codecpack for MS Windows without malware, to play anything other than wma/wmv/mp3/avi? (does Windows support anything else out of the box?) ;-)

Probably not. But most of the media that they're likely to play falls under the codecs you just listed. They don't even get those with openSUSE. - -Jeff

The patent issues with the codecs is quite different from the license "issues" with Adobe Flash or MS Fonts. Flash could even be included on the media again, but that would mean making restrictions on redistribution of the DVD again.

- -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzm3RMACgkQLPWxlyuTD7LZfwCgjCTscvx09Jxn1iNlwI7ZqPoi rscAnRdJpgZUakgqzT83xYj0tSsfR/bH =mlZR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Fredag den 19. november 2010 21:24:52 skrev Jeff Mahoney:

On 11/19/2010 03:14 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag den 19. november 2010 20:54:11 skrev Jeff Mahoney:

...

The expressions on their faces when they see how many ridiculous hoops I need to jump through to configure the Packman repository and then replace the codecs changes to exasperation

You mean go to a website like opensuse-community.org or opensuse-guide.org, click on a codec 1-click, then click next a couple of times, accept vendor change. Done. Or copy/paste a couple of zypper commands.

I've been a SUSE/openSUSE user for 11 years and didn't know that the codec 1-click existed. That would be easy -- but how about actually making it easily available to the user?

The 1-click is actually not that easy, people need to trust and import keys for a couple of repos and allow vendor change in the "scary" conflict dialog - which is more than enough to throw a lot of people off :-( I just don't have any good ideas for how to make it significantly easier. But it's clearly an issue, distros like Linux Mint and PCLinuxOS have considerable followings more or less based on including codecs and nothing else. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 15:24 -0500, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

I've been a SUSE/openSUSE user for 11 years and didn't know that the codec 1-click existed. That would be easy -- but how about actually making it easily available to the user? Having it on a web site out there - even one that's supposedly "obvious" is an extra step that most users don't even know about. gstreamer has a "go-find-a-plugin" component that doesn't even work.

Are you testing this on Factory with GStreamer? We added all the meta data to the gstreamer codec pacs and totem for example is perfectly able to find codec packs (as long as they are in the repos). For MP3 for example the fluendo codec is in the non-oss repo. So a 'standard' install can just click an mp3, it launches totem, gstreamer asks to install the codec and the music starts... prety neat. Codecs that we do not have in our own repos will trigger in gstreamer the 'search further' which brings you to the /codecs website, linking to opensuse-community.org to the 1-click installers... and actually once you have 'a repository with gstreamer packages' enabled, gstreamer will find those codecs again (packman of course does not (yet) build for Factory. So there is no (offically existing) repo available to test this. If there is something not working on Factory, we, the gnome team responsible for gstreamer, would gladly hear about this. Best regards, Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2010-11-19 at 21:14 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

You mean go to a website like opensuse-community.org or opensuse-guide.org, click on a codec 1-click, then click next a couple of times, accept vendor change. Done. Or copy/paste a couple of zypper commands.

Popular belief is that one-clicks break your system. I don't know why, except that I have seen some systems with the same repo added several times, it appears as the result of clicking on them. As it hasn't happened to me I can't report. On the forums, newbies are directed instead to a howto with detailed instructions, http://forums.opensuse.org/english/information-new-users/new-user-how-faq-re... There was mention of a video on youtube, I think.

For comparison have these people ever tried finding a codecpack for MS Windows without malware, to play anything other than wma/wmv/mp3/avi? (does Windows support anything else out of the box?) ;-)

In windows I just install VLC. It is a zip install, quick, done. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkznDcYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UhgQCgin13/Y5y+TKpPNF4jQdH1U18 yggAni9D45Lf9TS6XVHx31jALb6/yqUw =viuD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:19:05 +0100 Martin Schlander wrote:

Most people think 1-click is some form of black magic - they don't understand it's just rpms and repositories, exactly like a manual install - only a bit easier.

No. The last few times I tried 1-click installs I always got loads of packages installed that had nothing to do with the stuff that should have been installed with the one-click thing. And I had no way to stop it from doing that, no "summary screen" that asked me if I wanted to install all that crap or anything. Probably because I have the habit to always run "zypper up --no-recommends" because I usually do not want the recommended stuff, and the 1-click pulled in all the recommended packages of the last years. Anyway, it *is* scary black magic, and people should avoid it like the plague if they don't want random crap installed on their machine. Yes, I know. Ubuntu users would not care about the random crap. But I do. -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:07:20 +0100 Anders Johansson wrote:

There is a summary screen though, or do you just click "next" through all screens without looking at them. You get to a screen where you can modify your selection, and if you do you get to the normal YaST package manager where you can deselect anything to your heart's content

The summary says "This will install the following packages: foo bar baz", and then it installs a gazillion of packages. If I need to go into a "detailed selection" screen, click on "installation summary" and then find out that it will not only install the 3 advertised packages but 30, then it's not one-click anymore ;)

...

Anyway, it *is* scary black magic, and people should avoid it like the plague if they don't want random crap installed on their machine.

dict:random

If the packages you get installed are mentioned in config files you have installed, it's not random. But perhaps there should be a way of saying "no recommended packages" in the 1-click as well.

It should be default. Because those are usually not packages that are recommeded by the one-click-installed packages, but - in this context - really random packages ;)

And if the packages recommended by the packagers aren't good or useful, complain to the people writing the spec files.

Well, I can understand why packagers think that having e.g. gnome-lang is good if you have installed gnome packages and thus recommended. I consider this "recommends:" as correct. For me however, who only wants to have nm-applet and bluetooth-applet, gnome-lang is totally unnecessary and just takes up a lot of space and bandwidth. Thus I du "zypper dup --no-recommends". Unfortunately this is all moot if 1-click pulls all the recommends that I avoided before. But this is totally offtopic now ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2010-11-21 at 14:28 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

There is someone that wants to work on this? Otherwise all the 1-Click complains are a moot point.

They are not moot, the problems exist. Just because a reporter doesn't know how to fix something doesn't make his reports moot. So, till somebody fixes one-click (which I believe it is a very good idea), the recomedation to avoid one-click, or use it with caution, still holds. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkzpKCkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WIswCggskFkCa+2KNYX30OdeADr16w q34An2yC0uWhH0KDaZofurqGW4LD6pLo =oUec -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/04/2010 08:28 AM, Olaf Hering wrote:

On Fri, Nov 19, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag den 19. november 2010 20:54:11 skrev Jeff Mahoney:

...

The expressions on their faces when they see how many ridiculous hoops I need to jump through to configure the Packman repository and then replace the codecs changes to exasperation

You mean go to a website like opensuse-community.org or opensuse-guide.org, click on a codec 1-click, then click next a couple of times, accept vendor change. Done. Or copy/paste a couple of zypper commands.

Too complicated, or too geeky. What are all those conflicts (technical I understand them)?

After inserting a Video DVD, KDE does not offer to play the DVD. After installing the 'Codecs pack for KDE' thing: KDE still does not start a player to play the DVD?!

Smooth integration looks different.

...

For comparison have these people ever tried finding a codecpack for MS Windows without malware, to play anything other than wma/wmv/mp3/avi? (does Windows support anything else out of the box?) ;-)

Compare openSuSE with usable things: Inserting an audio CD opens the player. Inserting a Video DVD opens the player. In Mac OS. That matters.

Exactly. The UI experience described above is easy for the technically inclined but we need to move beyond that. There's all this discussion about how to make openSUSE more popular. The general answer is to attract more developers to then attract more users, which attracts more developers. It's a feedback loop that grows the user ecosystem gradually (perhaps eventually exponentially) instead of explosively, but there are very few examples of the latter ever actually happening in the world of operating systems. This feedback loop seems to have been short circuited at the goal of attracting developers, but without non-developer users to give feedback on the UI we end up with "good enough." Case in point: I attended this year's Linux Plumbers Conference and there was a UI designer from the Fedora project there who was tasked with unifying the interface to storage. She initially had some experience with the basic forms of storage, like internal disks and USB-attached disks, but it gets complex really quickly once you start getting into the SAN arena. Things like WWIDs aren't really user-friendly, especially for the end-user. She gave a great talk because it was a new perspective on a problem that we'd largely ignored because we're designing and testing with technical people. That's for storage. For this problem, the solution is much simpler. I just want to be able to install openSUSE on my mom's PC and not expect a phone call every 15 minutes with a new question on how to use it. The idea of explaining how to install MP3 codecs over the phone isn't appealing to me. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz6X+IACgkQLPWxlyuTD7KhRQCgplusaCTNDhjwmtDEeZ0EN4tj n/UAn3CmrzNIXbsTxkrQzk+k6YJnG9FV =+qjr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Heya, you make it sound like this is opensuses fault or a plain ui issue, every major distribution is affected here, and saying windows and mac os x knows how to do this, well guess what, they can afford paying some random group that offers licences. Beeing free we can't do that, we have to tell our users to read up upon the legal stuff and then make a decision for themself if they are allowed to use this software. dvds is even worse as the shady legal situation around css and if decss is circumventing a working encryption. Regards, Karsten btw, try using a bluray in macosx or playing some xvid on windows xp, we aren't that bad off with adding the packman repository. Am Samstag, 4. Dezember 2010, 16:36:02 schrieb Jeff Mahoney:

On 12/04/2010 08:28 AM, Olaf Hering wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 19, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag den 19. november 2010 20:54:11 skrev Jeff Mahoney:

...

The expressions on their faces when they see how many ridiculous hoops I need to jump through to configure the Packman repository and then replace the codecs changes to exasperation

You mean go to a website like opensuse-community.org or opensuse-guide.org, click on a codec 1-click, then click next a couple of times, accept vendor change. Done. Or copy/paste a couple of zypper commands.

Too complicated, or too geeky. What are all those conflicts (technical I understand them)?

After inserting a Video DVD, KDE does not offer to play the DVD. After installing the 'Codecs pack for KDE' thing: KDE still does not start a player to play the DVD?!

Smooth integration looks different.

...

For comparison have these people ever tried finding a codecpack for MS Windows without malware, to play anything other than wma/wmv/mp3/avi? (does Windows support anything else out of the box?) ;-)

Compare openSuSE with usable things: Inserting an audio CD opens the player. Inserting a Video DVD opens the player. In Mac OS. That matters.

Exactly. The UI experience described above is easy for the technically inclined but we need to move beyond that. There's all this discussion about how to make openSUSE more popular. The general answer is to attract more developers to then attract more users, which attracts more developers. It's a feedback loop that grows the user ecosystem gradually (perhaps eventually exponentially) instead of explosively, but there are very few examples of the latter ever actually happening in the world of operating systems.

This feedback loop seems to have been short circuited at the goal of attracting developers, but without non-developer users to give feedback on the UI we end up with "good enough." Case in point: I attended this year's Linux Plumbers Conference and there was a UI designer from the Fedora project there who was tasked with unifying the interface to storage. She initially had some experience with the basic forms of storage, like internal disks and USB-attached disks, but it gets complex really quickly once you start getting into the SAN arena. Things like WWIDs aren't really user-friendly, especially for the end-user. She gave a great talk because it was a new perspective on a problem that we'd largely ignored because we're designing and testing with technical people.

That's for storage. For this problem, the solution is much simpler.

I just want to be able to install openSUSE on my mom's PC and not expect a phone call every 15 minutes with a new question on how to use it. The idea of explaining how to install MP3 codecs over the phone isn't appealing to me.

-Jeff

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 4 Dec 2010 17:31:28 +0100 Olaf Hering wrote:

On Sat, Dec 04, Olaf Hering wrote:

...

What are all those conflicts (technical I understand them)?

To make my point clear:

This competes with openSuSE, instead of extending and "finishing" it. These addon repos should just plug-in into the existing packages, not replace them.

This works fine with FACTORY btw: seife@susi:~> rpm -qa libxine* libxine1-1.1.19-3.1.x86_64 libxine1-gnome-vfs-1.1.19-3.1.x86_64 libxine1-codecs-1.1.19-2.pm.50.11.x86_64 libxine1-pulse-1.1.19-3.1.x86_64 The real problem is, that packman updates libxine after openSUSE release is out and then builds the codecs against the own version. Or, to state it the other way round: the real problem is, that openSUSE does not update libxine after the release is out and stays at old and boring stuff for the whole lifetime. Choose your poison. I can understand, why they don't want to maintain old and boring "stable versions". -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/04/2010 01:56 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 04/12/2010 14:28, Olaf Hering a écrit :

...

Compare openSuSE with usable things: Inserting an audio CD opens the player. Inserting a Video DVD opens the player.

yes it doeas for me. Better it asks to know if I want to browse or play.

May be all this discussion is just a kind of misunformation. The openSUSE easiest way is:

go to repository/add/community/, add Packman (I think packman should be first in the list and made more visible).

Go to YaST, Pattern, multimedia, choose what you want, ok. we van discuss the defaults

... and that's the point I'm trying to make. Look at how many steps are involved there. That's not even including the fact that you have to know what you mean by a repository and what to run to add one. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz7sooACgkQLPWxlyuTD7LhOQCeJIfTkqRSVDvR5vfPFI326bvm /EUAn08mTav5C6M4GnvLXMgRq9SN0SOe =RvT6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/05/2010 10:43 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 05/12/2010 16:40, Jeff Mahoney a écrit :

...

... and that's the point I'm trying to make. Look at how many steps are involved there. That's not even including the fact that you have to know what you mean by a repository and what to run to add one.

what can be simpler? my server don't need multimedia.

Should we have more install defaults (add a "multimedia platform" option??

The defaults aren't the issue. I agree that server platforms, at least not multimedia servers, shouldn't need a bunch of crap they don't use. Use the example that I had with Ubuntu. Now expand that beyond multimedia. Any software that has the ability to reach out to extend itself should be configured to be able to do so, both on the client end or the server end. If we can come up with a way to aggregate what repositories offer and automatically offer (and select) the correct repos by priority then we can leverage our existing infrastrucutre to do this. As a first step, another openSUSE user contacted me off-list about a test project that he'd set up that does this automatically for gstreamer-related packages. I removed mp3 support, added this repo, and it found everything automatically and my music started playing. All that's needed is the automatic adding of the repo and we're good to go. - -Jeff Ubuntu example: http://jeffreymahoney.com/images/mp3-1.png ... boxes that required minimal or no interaction and passed quickly enough that i didn't have time to collect screenshots ... http://jeffreymahoney.com/images/mp3-2.png - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz7tXAACgkQLPWxlyuTD7JpcACeNi50roLUtaIZ+rwJx2brx1Ik dJ4AnAq252gnKdrZopnVexWB2/bRes58 =LZxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/05/2010 11:05 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 05/12/2010 16:53, Jeff Mahoney a écrit :

...

All that's needed is the automatic adding of the repo and we're good to go.

in the install, there is a page with "add cd drivers", may be we could add "add community repos"

What makes that obvious to the user that they need to do this to add mp3 support? Especially since the case seems to be that we're not allowed to actually say that. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz7wHgACgkQLPWxlyuTD7LLJACgpyu033Q/MRKY4HS2435zPeBb 1MYAn2kx+HkPtbG/XTEe19HRndQXbUQ+ =QsDA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 12/05/2010 11:45 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 05/12/2010 17:40, Jeff Mahoney a écrit :

...

What makes that obvious to the user that they need to do this to add mp3 support? Especially since the case seems to be that we're not allowed to actually say that.

nothing is ever obvious in life. For a new user, all is obscure, for an oldtimer nothing.

Uh huh. Thanks for your input. It's illuminating. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SuSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkz8FmcACgkQLPWxlyuTD7KZ7QCfRp/kSaCT5Lkgb7+5shWiUmjL heQAnj+PG+clsOg/GOzpgsxgfPnCq3aJ =uus+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 12/05/2010 05:53 PM, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

As a first step, another openSUSE user contacted me off-list about a test project that he'd set up that does this automatically for gstreamer-related packages. I removed mp3 support, added this repo, and it found everything automatically and my music started playing.

All that's needed is the automatic adding of the repo and we're good to go.

- -Jeff

Can you supply me with a few more details about this? I'd like to make something like this happen. I'm +1 for a multimedia pattern. Thanks Dave P Maintainer multimedia apps and libs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 12/07/2010 01:55 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 07/12/2010 11:31, Dave Plater a écrit :

.

...

I'm +1 for a multimedia pattern.

there is already one. I don't know how to list it from CLI

jdd

You're quite right :-[ Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 07, 10 15:20:52 -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

...

...

I'm +1 for a multimedia pattern. there is already one. I don't know how to list it from CLI

jdd You're quite right :-[ Dave P

Since it's illegal to include Packman with the openSUSE release.

This is a common misconception. Try this in yast: Software -> Software Repositories Add -> Community Repositories scroll down the list and ponder over the checkmarks at [x] Packman Repository [x] VideoLan Repository Naming the Repo is perfectly legal. - Advertising it is not. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 12/09/2010 07:54 AM, Oddball wrote:

Op 09-12-10 13:31, Juergen Weigert schreef:

...

On Dec 07, 10 15:20:52 -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

...

...

...

I'm +1 for a multimedia pattern.

there is already one. I don't know how to list it from CLI

jdd

You're quite right :-[ Dave P

Since it's illegal to include Packman with the openSUSE release.

This is a common misconception. Try this in yast:

Software -> Software Repositories Add -> Community Repositories

scroll down the list and ponder over the checkmarks at

[x] Packman Repository [x] VideoLan Repository

Naming the Repo is perfectly legal. - Advertising it is not.

cheers, JW-

Yeah! Are we getting somewhere or what!?

Yes I know. What I was suggesting that the Packman/VideoLan repos be added as part of a Multimedia pattern. This way we only require 3 clicks of a mouse to add a codecs-pack as was shown in a screenshot from another distro. Maybe, we can create a package named "multimedia-pack" so that people download it all in one go. I really think we should simplify this of we want to increase the user base. Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 09, 10 10:28:48 -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

On 12/09/2010 07:54 AM, Oddball wrote:

...

...

...

Since it's illegal to include Packman with the openSUSE release. This is a common misconception. Try this in yast:

Software -> Software Repositories Add -> Community Repositories [x] Packman Repository

Yeah! Are we getting somewhere or what!?

Yes, very slowly. Unfortunatly we forgot to make a law against secrecy. :-)

Maybe, we can create a package named "multimedia-pack" so that people download it all in one go.

This should be possible, if done right. We need to be careful to not create any liability for the openSUSE project or sponsors. I assume it would need a foolproof method to 'educate' the user that he is about to pull in software from beyond our control and what the implications are.(*) Please ping me or legal-devel@suse.de for review, if you have a prototype.

I really think we should simplify this of we want to increase the user base.

Definitly yes. The current procedure has plenty of room for some customer focus. cheers, JW- *) We most possibly had a good reason for disapproving a piece of software if it is not in our repositories. Such reason may or may not apply to an individual end user. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 11/19/2010 05:15 PM, İsmail Dönmez wrote:

Hi;

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

So -- since we KNOW the the Packman repository contains all the plugins necessary to make gstreamer work as everyone sane expects, can we please do something about automating this?

Indeed, think about a fully working mplayer, ffmpeg, x264 etc. too. We could write an app to install all that and keep it up to date via packman repository. IANAL but I think this would be legal.

Regards, ismail

If legal is worrying about the 1-click. How about first-time start up of mplayer or playing a media file will show a message: One moment. Mplayer is downloading the necessary files for you to view your media..... Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 19, 10 16:28:38 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 05:40:18PM -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 11/19/2010 05:15 PM, ??smail Dönmez wrote:

...

Hi;

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

So -- since we KNOW the the Packman repository contains all the plugins necessary to make gstreamer work as everyone sane expects, can we please do something about automating this?

Indeed, think about a fully working mplayer, ffmpeg, x264 etc. too. We could write an app to install all that and keep it up to date via packman repository. IANAL but I think this would be legal.

Regards, ismail

If legal is worrying about the 1-click. How about first-time start up of mplayer or playing a media file will show a message:

One moment. Mplayer is downloading the necessary files for you to view your media.....

Sorry, but no, according to the lawyers we are not allowed to do something like that.

We have done about as much as we are able to do at this time, unfortunately.

There is more that we can do. I envision three things, that could contribute to a decent user experience with regard to general package installation: FIRST: Legal has no objections against buildig a global search engine, that could respond to the following: - 'I am openSUSE NN.N architecture AAA, I need a package that provides PPP (or that handles mimetype MMM, which is only a special form of a provides symbol), and my prefered desktop is KKK, and any other relevant info, a user might want to expose. Maybe the list of my enabled repos too ... The response would be a list of - 1-click URLs, offering a choice of packages, sorted by relevance to the given information and by votes (!). Telling our users, where stuff is, is nothing illegal by itself. It just needs to be neutral. To avoid any risks, I would not ask Novell to host such an engine. I'd look in the direction of webpin (to demonstrate that this is a community driven engine). SECOND: Educate the user, so he knows a) where his software comes from, and b) that once his search leaves the services of Novell, he is on his own. Obvious to the common man, but that is the actual legal requirement. So who should advertise packages / repositories? End users do. By voting. A search engine that knows hundreds of repositories is likely to break your system, by offering you incompatible packages. So let users give their feedback what worked for them (on which particular system). THIRD: Enhance yast/zipper and friends to - not give up, when a package is not found, but ask the user if he wants to query 'the internet' for 'recommendations from the user community'. (aka the above mentioned search engine) - let the user configure what information is being sent out. - let the user browse a list in return. - Post a strong Novell-Disclamers if the user chooses a packages from a repository without a SUSE signature. What we call 1-click, is already 11 clicks long, adding one more does not really hurt. - Allow the user to report install failure back to the search engine, - Encourage to report back sucess in running the new software at a later point in time (e.g. next time yast/zypper is run). How about that? Would it be worth to discuss such a setup with Novell legal? cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 22, 10 15:19:00 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

Mandag den 22. november 2010 13:21:19 skrev Juergen Weigert:

...

So who should advertise packages / repositories? End users do. By voting. A search engine that knows hundreds of repositories is likely to break your system, by offering you incompatible packages. So let users give their feedback what worked for them (on which particular system).

Users are likely to vote up "exciting" risky repos - like e.g. KDE:Distro:Factory or X11 repo or Kernel repo.

I think it would be better to have some objective criteria for repo safety - instead of trusting popularity. E.g. if a repo does any of the following it should not be considered safe by definition - no matter how popular: 1) Wants to touch the kernel, X, glibc, alsa etc. 2) Wants to touch package management components (rpm, libzypp etc.) 3) Wants to touch core libraries or interpreters like Qt, Gtk, Python 4) Wants to touch your base desktop workspace

Good ideas! thanks, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 22, 10 08:44:41 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

- 'I am openSUSE NN.N architecture AAA, I need a package that provides PPP (or that handles mimetype MMM, which is only a special form of a provides symbol), and my prefered desktop is KKK, and any other relevant info, a user might want to expose. Maybe the list of my enabled repos too ... The response would be a list of - 1-click URLs, offering a choice of packages, sorted by relevance to the given information and by votes (!).

We almost do this already today with the "you are trying to play a codec I don't understand, do you want me to search for it" message you get.

...

Telling our users, where stuff is, is nothing illegal by itself. It just needs to be neutral. To avoid any risks, I would not ask Novell to host such an engine. I'd look in the direction of webpin (to demonstrate that this is a community driven engine).

So you can get a third party to accept this risk? Good luck with that :)

Actually, I am trying to find out where the risk really is. Google produces all kinds of links, and they don't appear to be responsible what is offered at the sites they link to. So why couldn't a software search engine do the same? Assumed it is sufficiently large and serves as a 'general purpose' dependency resolution engine, the risk is low that someone can take it down for serving a link to a software package where the user needs to have additional licenses. Saying publically what software can be found where, should be possible under most jurisdications. No? cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Nov 22, 10 09:26:45 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

Saying publically what software can be found where, should be possible under most jurisdications. No?

Most, yes. All, no. Anyway, this all is just theoretical, sorry.

Hmm. I actually try hard to come up with something practical. Having a modell that survives theoretical criticism is a solid first step. Practical details are next :-) cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) SuSE. Supporting Linux since 1992. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Heya, I don't think we should try to jump through all the hoops just because we can't provide the people legal access to the music they own. Mandriva, Fedora and openSUSE all have this problem, maybe even a few more, how about for a start to make a unified statement about the situation? Why this is, who to thank for it and that every user is forced to add a seperate repository for legal reason which exists to lock people out of their property. There is a pretty big following for these distributions and these are mostly sufficiently educated to replace a shipped operating system, so let's put the spotlight on the organizations who put us in the situation. DRM got so badmouthed any use of these technologies is a marketing minefield, there must be a way push the licence pools to an accaptable decoding licence that allow open redistribution. Cheers, Karsten Am Montag, 22. November 2010, 13:21:19 schrieb Juergen Weigert:

On Nov 19, 10 16:28:38 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 05:40:18PM -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 11/19/2010 05:15 PM, ??smail Dönmez wrote:

...

Hi;

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

...

So -- since we KNOW the the Packman repository contains all the plugins necessary to make gstreamer work as everyone sane expects, can we please do something about automating this?

Indeed, think about a fully working mplayer, ffmpeg, x264 etc. too. We could write an app to install all that and keep it up to date via packman repository. IANAL but I think this would be legal.

Regards, ismail

If legal is worrying about the 1-click. How about first-time start up of mplayer or playing a media file will show a message:

One moment. Mplayer is downloading the necessary files for you to view your media.....

Sorry, but no, according to the lawyers we are not allowed to do something like that.

We have done about as much as we are able to do at this time, unfortunately.

There is more that we can do. I envision three things, that could contribute to a decent user experience with regard to general package installation:

FIRST: Legal has no objections against buildig a global search engine, that could respond to the following: - 'I am openSUSE NN.N architecture AAA, I need a package that provides PPP (or that handles mimetype MMM, which is only a special form of a provides symbol), and my prefered desktop is KKK, and any other relevant info, a user might want to expose. Maybe the list of my enabled repos too ... The response would be a list of - 1-click URLs, offering a choice of packages, sorted by relevance to the given information and by votes (!).

Telling our users, where stuff is, is nothing illegal by itself. It just needs to be neutral. To avoid any risks, I would not ask Novell to host such an engine. I'd look in the direction of webpin (to demonstrate that this is a community driven engine).

SECOND: Educate the user, so he knows a) where his software comes from, and b) that once his search leaves the services of Novell, he is on his own. Obvious to the common man, but that is the actual legal requirement.

So who should advertise packages / repositories? End users do. By voting. A search engine that knows hundreds of repositories is likely to break your system, by offering you incompatible packages. So let users give their feedback what worked for them (on which particular system).

THIRD: Enhance yast/zipper and friends to - not give up, when a package is not found, but ask the user if he wants to query 'the internet' for 'recommendations from the user community'. (aka the above mentioned search engine) - let the user configure what information is being sent out. - let the user browse a list in return. - Post a strong Novell-Disclamers if the user chooses a packages from a repository without a SUSE signature. What we call 1-click, is already 11 clicks long, adding one more does not really hurt. - Allow the user to report install failure back to the search engine, - Encourage to report back sucess in running the new software at a later point in time (e.g. next time yast/zypper is run).

How about that? Would it be worth to discuss such a setup with Novell legal?

cheers, JW-

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/20/2010 09:14 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:40:18 -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

If legal is worrying about the 1-click. How about first-time start up of mplayer or playing a media file will show a message:

As long as Novell holds the rights to openSUSE and is thus a lucrative target to sue this won't happen. we can possibly talk about that when we actually do have an openSUSE foundation that holds the rights and is in itself poor enough to not be a worthy target.

As things are, we have to stay with the current unsatisfying situation.

I'm curious how it is that Ubuntu gets away with it then. I installed 10.04 in a VM yesterday and it _just worked_. I started up Rhythmbox for the first time and it told me that it wasn't currently able to play MP3s and presented a giant button to automatically install the codecs. No scary prompts, no warnings about signed repos, nothing. If they can do this, there must be something we're missing. - -Jeff - -- Jeff Mahoney SUSE Labs -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkzogw8ACgkQLPWxlyuTD7J93QCghIa0BdwRVoOFEyFGvO0Lj2Re LlEAnifgmkYlJfeA/31ZuCng1R4hArzT =JqMF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 09:25:20PM -0500, Jeff Mahoney wrote:

On 11/20/2010 09:14 PM, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:40:18 -0500, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

If legal is worrying about the 1-click. How about first-time start up of mplayer or playing a media file will show a message:

As long as Novell holds the rights to openSUSE and is thus a lucrative target to sue this won't happen. we can possibly talk about that when we actually do have an openSUSE foundation that holds the rights and is in itself poor enough to not be a worthy target.

As things are, we have to stay with the current unsatisfying situation.

I'm curious how it is that Ubuntu gets away with it then.

Ubuntu, and it's parent owner company, are set up in a very "unique" legal situation that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to bring legal action against. That is why they get away with it :( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org