On 16/01/2019 13:45, Liam Proven wrote:

If you are running leading-edge hardware, and for it you need a leading-edge kernel etc., then openSUSE already has an answer: it is Tumbleweed.

This is indeed very important and even more so for recent laptops that do really benefit from newer kernels and drivers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 14:17, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

For PRODUCTION SYSTEMS I cannot use anything permanently changing. Also, I have to fully agree with Carlos.

You can't have it both ways. Any distribution that constantly supports new hardware has to, by design, be permanently changing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, only a side note: On Jan 16 14:58 Bjoern Voigt wrote (excerpt):

Of course there are some other drivers (e.g. CUPS drivers)

I assume you mean printer drivers. There are basically no drivers in CUPS except some very generic ones and/or very special ones like "rastertodymo". Usual printer drivers are in separated software packages, cf. "openSUSE printer driver software packages" in https://en.opensuse.org/Concepts_printing I think the section "Version upgrades for printer driver packages" in https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Installing_a_Printer helps to further explain things. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 19.59, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

On Jan 16 14:58 Bjoern Voigt wrote (excerpt):

...

Of course there are some other drivers (e.g. CUPS drivers)

I assume you mean printer drivers. There are basically no drivers in CUPS except some very generic ones and/or very special ones like "rastertodymo". Usual printer drivers are in separated software packages, cf. "openSUSE printer driver software packages" in https://en.opensuse.org/Concepts_printing

I think the section "Version upgrades for printer driver packages" in https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Installing_a_Printer helps to further explain things.

Yes, you are right. I did not wanted to go into CUPS details. But in fact I had to use CUPS from the [Printing] repository, because our Samsung/HP laser printer does not work with CUPS 1.7.5 from openSUSE 42.3, but it works with CUPS 2.3b6 from [Printing] repository. Probably the HPLIP update from [Printing] enabled the printer, but for me it is enough to know, that the printer works with the updated printing software which is not part of openSUSE 42.3.

Me too, I had to use that repo to install a new printer for a friend. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 17/01/2019 12.44, Johannes Meixner wrote:

Hello Bjoern and Carlos,

On Jan 16 23:14 Carlos E. R. wrote (excerpt):

...

On 16/01/2019 19.59, Bjoern Voigt wrote (excerpt):

...

... I had to use CUPS from the [Printing] repository, because our Samsung/HP laser printer does not work with CUPS 1.7.5 from openSUSE 42.3, but it works with CUPS 2.3b6 from [Printing] repository. ... Me too, I had to use that repo to install a new printer for a friend.

I appreciate it that there are openSUSE users who use packages from the OBS "Printing" project (if needed) because we depend on openSUSE users who actually use our newest packages for their real daily use cases to get early feedback if things got broken.

Thank You and Kind Regards Johannes Meixner

Thanks to you for the repo :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Am Mittwoch, 16. Jan 2019, 14:34:53 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

On Wednesday 2019-01-16 14:16, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

...

Am Mittwoch, 16. Jan 2019, 13:51:18 schrieb Michael Pujos:

...

On 16/01/2019 13:45, Liam Proven wrote:

...

If you are running leading-edge hardware, and for it you need a leading-edge kernel etc., then openSUSE already has an answer: it is Tumbleweed.

This is indeed very important and even more so for recent laptops that do really benefit from newer kernels and drivers.

I already answered to Liam Proven...

For PRODUCTION SYSTEMS I cannot use anything permanently changing. Also, I have to fully agree with Carlos.

Sure you can, you just do not want to. Needless to say, even production systems change state regularly, though generally fewer items per iteration.

I tried several times Tumbleweed (every time when I had troubles with Leap). I can only say, it was not better. I primarily felt being closer to bleeding edge only.

...

And MINT is for sure not "bleeding edge", so why can they do what openSUSE can not?

Because MINT, like Tumbleweed, is not a distribution for production systems —— for some value of "production".

Exactly. Therefore I use -> LEAP. And this LEAP can sometimes not install, or does not boot anymore after updating the kernel, or .... All I said is: MINT and other distros are able to solve this issue, and therefore it is time that LEAP also has this issue solved. But instead I get the impression that it is much more important to get out a new version than fixing the old one first.

It's not about (in)ability to (not) do something, it was a choice by each party on how much "production-readyness" (to re-use a well-known buzzword bingo term) they want to deliver in a product.

Ouch, this really hurts. You do not want to tell me that openSuSE degraded in quality, no? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 15:52, Liam Proven wrote:

On 16/01/2019 14:51, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

...

All I said is: MINT and other distros are able to solve this issue, and therefore it is time that LEAP also has this issue solved.

So stop just asking for something impossible. Do your homework. *Work out why*.

Isolate what works, what driver, what kernel, whatever. And isolate what does *not* work in Leap.

Then you can make a specific request, and you will find that you get a more productive, positive response than you are getting here and now.

Indeed. In furtherance of that point, I am currently helping a colleague investigating an issue with their very new laptop that is struggling to boot with Leap/SLE in certain conditions. We have figured out that this failure to boot is _nothing to do_ with the kernel, mesa, Xorg, or almost all of the usual suspects that people request updates for in the name of hardware enablement. Therefore, we're currently having to experiment with changing _everything_ (ie. using Tumbleweed) and working back from there before filing the appropriate bug that we can at least scope to realise where the problem is. And when we get there, the appropriate maintainer(s) will find themselves having an appropriate bug report(s). And things will almost certainly be fixed. Such is life.. all software sucks in some way, things need to move forward to get better, openSUSE has the luxury of having multiple approaches to solving that conundrum. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 16:46, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

This is a funny suggestion, especially if you do not know if the customer/user is a developer or not.

In most cases with new hardware we know two facts:

1. it works with rolling release distributions 2. it does not work at all nor not stable with Leap

How should a regular user find the driver, package, kernel release, patch etc. which causes e.g. stability problems?

Of course sometimes it is not so much work e.g. for a experienced developer or devop. Once I found an issue of the Xorg Intel driver with Git-Bisect. We could fix this problem for all openSUSE users. But really, this is not something for regular users.

I think the right persons for fixing hardware issues are the upstream Kernel developers and the SUSE developers, not the openSUSE users.

I know it's not an easy request, but since Rainer is repeatedly asking others to do the work, I think it is a reasonable one. He needs to at least isolate what the problem is more narrowly than "it doesn't boot". My generic advice when people using non-Windows OSes have boot-up problems is "update your firmware". He has not even told us what the motherboard make and model is, and what version of the firmware it has. These are the bare minimum for even beginning to troubleshoot anything like this. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Axel Braun wrote:

Right, and this should be the duty of the hardware manufacturer to deliver proper drivers. You cant blame a community for getting information late (or never, and has to rely on reverse engineering).

OK, but in most cases there are working drivers available for users with brand new hardware. But with a Linux distribution which contains an 1,5 years old kernel (the Kernel 4.12.14 for Leap 15.0 was released on September 2017) with some backports the user does not always get the working drivers. Microsoft has nothing to do with this problem. Greetings, Björn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi rainer, Am 16.01.19 um 14:16 schrieb Rainer Hantsch: ... snip

For PRODUCTION SYSTEMS I cannot use anything permanently changing. Also, I i use tumbleweed for production systems. (on new bleeding edge hardware amd-ryzen).

with the tumbleweedcli i stick on one version some weeks and have the possibility to add software with yast without dup-ing all. after some weeks of course i update to the latest tumbleweed. tumbleweed is a stable release, i have not more (or less) problems than with other opensuse versions which in the past also killed me after some updates proprietary stuff. http://review.tumbleweed.boombatower.com/about.html

I do not use Linux for fun, I use it as a better alternative to M$. It has to

i also not. ... but i know also 2 people who have left opensuse because of problems... simoN ps: don't forget, most (all) linux ryzen systems are out of the box not 100% stable, you have to fight with (at least 2 different) ryzen bugs. -> adding work around for idele problem "typical current idle" and high load problem "kill ryzen skript" only (free of charge at amd) changing ryzen-processor will help. -- www.becherer.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 13.45, Liam Proven wrote:

If you are running leading-edge hardware, and for it you need a leading-edge kernel etc., then openSUSE already has an answer: it is Tumbleweed.

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution. For instance, the other day I was trying to help someone on Usenet with a network that would not work on Leap but did on Ubuntu, out of the box. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Carlos E.R. composed on 2019-01-16 14:00 (UTC+0100):

For instance, the other day I was trying to help someone on Usenet with a network that would not work on Leap but did on Ubuntu, out of the box.

Latest *buntu with 4.18 kernel is 4 months newer than newest Leap and its 4.12 kernel (with exactly which backports?) Time marches on. I would have gone with the still newer Fedora, which is more like openSUSE. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 14.22, Martin Wilck wrote:

On Wed, 2019-01-16 at 14:00 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

On 16/01/2019 13.45, Liam Proven wrote:

...

If you are running leading-edge hardware, and for it you need a leading-edge kernel etc., then openSUSE already has an answer: it is Tumbleweed.

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution.

For instance, the other day I was trying to help someone on Usenet with a network that would not work on Leap but did on Ubuntu, out of the box.

That's unfortunate, sure. Which Ubuntu did you test? To be fair against Leap, it should have been 18.04.x, not 18.10.

I don't know, but I have part of his boot log: [ 0.000000] Linux version 4.18.0-10-generic (buildd@lgw01-amd64-060) (gcc version 8.2.0 (Ubuntu 8.2.0-7ubuntu1)) #11-Ubuntu SMP Thu Oct 11 15:13:55 UTC 2018 (Ubuntu 4.18.0-10.11-generic 4.18.12)

As you know, Leap 15.1 is already in preparation and will come with lots of important backports. The big benefit you have from using Leap is that you get the stabilization work that SUSE is doing for SLES. The focus is more on stability than on being on the cutting edge, if you want to put it that way. That's how Leap is currently set up. That said, there are repos from which you could pull a more recent kernel for Leap if you're having issues with recent hardware, and that's what I'd recommend.

I know all that, but it is no help to a newcommer. What I can do for him over mail is limited. And if the installation doesn't boot... or as in this case, he has no network to download from other repos...

Martin

PS: Hasn't it been that way always? If you try to run Linux with the latest hardware, you're up to some adventure. That's mostly true for any distro, and is caused by the way the industry works (sadly).

Arguably, it is somewhat worse with Leap. I know the reasoning, but I have to agree with OP, an optional downloadable image with more recent kernel would help. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Liam Proven schrieb:

[...]

Leap: you get a point release about once a year, roughly when SLE gets a service pack. Major releases are about every 3-4 years, approximately when SLE gets major releases.

Source: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap

Ubuntu has this slightly odd dual-life-cycle thing, which makes it a bit more production-friendly.

No other distro I know of has this. Even the prominent Ubuntu-based distros -- e.g. Mint, Bodhi, Elementary -- tend to use the Ubuntu LTS (and updates) and base their meta-distros on top of that.

openSUSE doesn't _have_ a short-lifecycle stable-release version from which to derive what Ubuntu refers to as "hardware enablement stacks".

SLE service packs do contain updates for hardware enablement. So even 15.1 which is in development may already behave differently on the same hardware right now (iow please try and report bugs). Every other SLE service pack is usually bigger and may even version update the kernel if there are good reasons for it. The integration and stabilization work needed for introducing a kernel update (or an update of any other component low in the stack in fact) at such a scale cannot be underestimated though. The focus clearly is on avoiding regressions rather than shipping the kernel of the day. That's why it takes time. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:00 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 16/01/2019 13.45, Liam Proven wrote:

...

If you are running leading-edge hardware, and for it you need a leading-edge kernel etc., then openSUSE already has an answer: it is Tumbleweed.

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution.

There is no such a thing as "main distribution" in terms of openSUSE, both Tumbleweed and Leap are treated as equally main. Neither is Tumbleweed "experimental", it's rolling, and tested, it's as stable as we can make it. Factory is experimental, we don't ship that one because it's not tested. I feel that's not fair to developers that put their heart and soul into development (and testing) of Tumbleweed just for it to be dismissed as lesser because it's rolling ;) Although even Wikipedia spreads misinformation in regards to that, they are listing Tumbleweed as development rolling distribution, as in base for Leap, Factory is the base for both.

For instance, the other day I was trying to help someone on Usenet with a network that would not work on Leap but did on Ubuntu, out of the box.

LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown composed on 2019-01-16 14:36 (UTC+0100):

hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:

...

Although even Wikipedia spreads misinformation in regards to that, they are listing Tumbleweed as development rolling distribution, as in base for Leap, Factory is the base for both.

Would someone please be so kind to correct that nonsense on the wikipedia page? They banned me from anything openSUSE related due to my position in the Project ;)

I scanned down to where "Features" begin without noticing what needs changing. Maybe if you supply desired replacement language I can apply it. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 16:49, Liam Proven wrote:

On 16/01/2019 16:34, Felix Miata wrote:

...

I scanned down to where "Features" begin without noticing what needs changing. Maybe if you supply desired replacement language I can apply it.

Same here. I do not need replacement text, but an exact pointer to the problem would help.

Axel already took away the mention of Tumbleweed being experimental, but the remaining things I'd like to see changed include: Overview - I would mention all of the sponsors, not just SUSE Company history/Product History titles - I'd remove them, but keep the Further Information callback. We're not a company, we're not a product, we're a Project, and the history text does a good job of covering our whole general history. Distribution - Almost a total rewrite. Retail edition, FTP, Factory are not distributions. It should mention just Leap, Tumbleweed, and maybe Kubic Features - tons of stuff to be updated/rewritten there. A lot of it is out of date. WebYaST does not exist. There is no mention of built in snapshot/rollback, and yet that is by far our best breakout feature. Factory - mostly good, but needs citations for some reason, and also I'd like it to mention how SUSE contribute directly to Factory as part of it's formal "Factory First" policy (citation: https://opensource.suse.com/suse-open-source-policy ) That would be the stuff I'd change to start with at least. Thanks both volunteering. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 17:18, Liam Proven wrote:

...

Overview - I would mention all of the sponsors, not just SUSE

Pointer to list, please?

https://en.opensuse.org/Sponsors

...

Company history/Product History titles - I'd remove them, but keep the Further Information callback. We're not a company, we're not a product, we're a Project, and the history text does a good job of covering our whole general history.

Can you be more specific about what might go into the SUSE article? I am reluctant to just remove much of anything. I suspect it might well be reverted.

I wouldn't remove anything from the SUSE article. I'd remove the Company history/Product History titles. That's all

...

Distribution - Almost a total rewrite. Retail edition, FTP, Factory are not distributions. It should mention just Leap, Tumbleweed, and maybe Kubic

Sorry, but that is way *way* too vague. :-(

I'm sorry I don't have the time to write everything for you. There are dozens of places that have summaries of Tumbleweed, Leap, and Kubic, such as the openSUSE wiki. Remove everything from the distribution section of the article and replace it with accurate descriptions of the 3 distributions we ship, Leap, Tumbleweed, and Kubic with those summaries.

...

Features - tons of stuff to be updated/rewritten there. A lot of it is out of date.

Again, not specific enough.

...

WebYaST does not exist.

Er, OK. Since when?

I'd say since 2013, when active development pretty much halted. You could say 2014 when it was removed from all openSUSE distributions because it didn't build successfully for over 100 days

...

There is no mention of built in snapshot/rollback, and yet that is by far our best breakout feature.

In Wikipedia-ese, I would say [[citation needed]] :-D

I personally would dispute that. I know you are a fan but, well, let's put it this way. I have reformatted all 3 or 4 of my openSUSE installs with ext4 to get rid of the pain of btrfs, snapshots, snapper and all that.

IMHO the #1 breakout feature of SUSE & openSUSE is YaST. There is nothing else like it on any other Linux any more.

Well, you can mention YaST also, but if your humble opinion is valid for a wikipedia article, then so is the opinion of the Project's chairman and Leap's release manager, and we say that the #1 breakout feature is snapshots/rollback ;) Lets avoid saying which is #1, they're both really cool, the article should provide a fair reflection of both :)

...

and also I'd like it to mention how SUSE contribute directly to Factory as part of it's formal "Factory First" policy (citation: https://opensource.suse.com/suse-open-source-policy )

Can do but that might get reverted as being advert-like.

Try and say is a matter of fact, rather than a matter of pride?

...

That would be the stuff I'd change to start with at least. Thanks both volunteering.

It belatedly occurs that I might face sanctions due to perceived conflict of interest, too. :-(

Indeed, but if I state here for the record that it can be argued that your constant belly-aching means you have probably contributed negatively to openSUSE more than you have positively, then maybe the wikimedia gods will look welcomingly on your efforts here today ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 17:00, Richard Brown wrote:

WebYaST does not exist.

Never having even heard of it before, it certainly _looks_ like it still exists. https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:WebYaST http://webyast.github.io/webyast/ Do its developers know it no longer exists? :-D -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/01/2019 17:34, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

Yes. They do. ;-) I thought they might.

So let's get those pages taken down or updated, then, hmm? *Then* we can worry about external sites. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 14:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution.

Tumbleweed is not an experimental distribution Leap is not 'the main' distribution of the openSUSE Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 14:46, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Tumbleweed is not an experimental distribution Leap is not 'the main' distribution of the openSUSE Project

My opinion is different, sorry.

Contributions define facts in the openSUSE Project And our huge collection of developers, testers, web designers, artists, marketeers, board members, advocates, and many more have collectively spoken through their actions driving this project forward for years now. Tumbleweed is not an experimental distribution Leap is not 'the main' distribution of the openSUSE Project These are facts. Your opinion doesn't change that, and every time you express your deviant opinion, you risk upsetting that huge collection of people voluntarily working on something you care a great deal about. These are people you are not paying, nor are they beholden to you or the whims of your opinion for any other reason. Common sense would dictate these are probably people you would rather not upset. Sorry to have to share this inconvenient truth. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 1/16/19 2:46 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 16/01/2019 14.32, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 14:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution.

Tumbleweed is not an experimental distribution Leap is not 'the main' distribution of the openSUSE Project

My opinion is different, sorry.

I don't think Richard was expressing his personal opinion, but the official position of the openSUSE project and the real status/definition of Leap and Tumbleweed. In other words, those are facts, not opinions. Carlos, it's perfectly fine if your opinion is that Tumbleweed is not as stable as Leap, or that it is not as stable as the openSUSE project claims. Or that it doesn't get enough love... You can of course also have an opinion about Leap being superior, nicer and/or more stable than Tumbleweed. But your opinion about quality doesn't change how Tumbleweed and Leap are defined inside the openSUSE project. Both are sibling distributions with different target of users, none of them is "the main". Both are (or none). Cheers. -- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Manfred Hollstein composed on 2019-01-16 14:59 (UTC+0100):

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, 14:32:26 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

...

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution.

...

Tumbleweed is not an experimental distribution Leap is not 'the main' distribution of the openSUSE Project

hmm, what is *the main* distribution of the openSUSE Project then? Call me dumb, but I always thought, openSUSE 13.x were gone by now...

Let me guess the keyword is "the". s/the main/a main/, resulting in both TW and Leap being "main", or maybe neither. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 14:59, Manfred Hollstein wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019, 14:32:26 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Tumbleweed is not an experimental distribution Leap is not 'the main' distribution of the openSUSE Project

hmm, what is *the main* distribution of the openSUSE Project then? Call me dumb, but I always thought, openSUSE 13.x were gone by now...

There is no 'main' distribution.

From an emotional perspective, asking many of us whether Leap or Tumbleweed is the "main" is like asking a parent which child is the "main" one.

From a less emotional perspective, there is no statistic or metric that supports the argument that either distribution is the "main" that cannot be countermanded by an equally valid metric that supports the other.

Sure, you can probably argue that Leap has more users. So is that the main? No, because Tumbleweed has many more contributions and contributors. But that doesn't make it the main either. Leap couldn't exist if it wasn't for SLE - does that make SLE the "main" distribution? No, that would be nonsense, but no more nonsensical than picking Tumbleweed or Leap and declaring them as the "main". openSUSE's distributions only exists in a meaningful away for anybody because we do NOT have a "main" distribution but instead create multiple offerings symbiotically, built by and for the people who contribute to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 16/01/2019 15.55, Liam Proven wrote:

On 16/01/2019 14:00, Carlos E.R. wrote:

...

I can't agree with that, sorry. The main distribution should work on any hardware that I can buy currently at the shop, and not force me to use "experimental" distribution.

This is impossible, because nobody can predict the future. You and Rainer are asking for a distro that, at the time of release, supports hardware that was not yet on the market.

No, we ask for optional, non-officially-suported, install images with recent kernel, and a repo with an optional recent kernel we can recommend these people to try. Leap, for known and accepted reasons, uses a much older kernel than other distros. Just a fact, and people outside rub it on our faces and we have to do the explaining. Recently, a friend said I was stupid (in very offensive wording) for using openSUSE. Anything besides Debian is being stupid. That his/her usb stick not working on my computer was my fault for not using a decent distro! I lost a friend. Don't even think I don't care or defend openSUSE.

...

For instance, the other day I was trying to help someone on Usenet with a network that would not work on Leap but did on Ubuntu, out of the box.

So find out why! Is it a kernel issue? If not, in what subsystem is it? Is it a driver?

Well, I'm trying. I convinced him to post a bugzilla about it (1119574). He has installed Ubuntu and Leap alternatively several times, he has posted boot logs of both distros... You can find the thread in nntp:alt.os.linux.suse. My WiFi knowledge is limited. And yes, I was not successful getting him to post here instead. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXD9pHwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1YJsAKCVJlxSSOiRwDRRJyXLyVWnLJSLQACdEnv1fIULmKK/CjUx7OeDNuDiTrM= =8Qwi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 14:49, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

I am a Tumbleweed user on my main desktop machine, but I find the suggestion from SUSE members to use Tumbleweed for new hardware which does not work correctly inappropriate for common use cases. Tumbleweed is inappropriate for Linux newbies and it is mostly inappropriate for server and cloud users. The Kernel-stable repository is also inappropriate for many use cases. For instance I often had problems with Nvidia drivers which did not compile on the Kernel_stable kernels without special hotfix patches from the community.

Linux newbies do not install openSUSE anyway. They install whatever is cool with their favorite Linux 'distro hopping' Youtuber, and openSUSE is not in that list and doesn't have to be. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 16:45, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

Unfortunately. I trained Linux newbies over several years. In Germany it was clear, that we take SUSE Linux and later openSUSE. Most of the people in my courses also started using SUSE at home or at work. SUSE lost many of such users.

I agree. I was a SUSE Pro user for many years myself and it worries me to see how much mindshare it has lost. One big thing is seldom discussed. It upset a *lot* of FOSS people when SUSE signed a patent-sharing deal with Microsoft. This allowed it to continue using the very Windows-like KDE desktop without fear of litigation. And yet, the enterprise editions now only ship with GNOME 3. I would submit that the top 4 distros, in terms of mindshare, are: * the Red Hat family (inc Fedora, CentOS etc.) -- defaults to GNOME * the Ubuntu family - defaults to GNOME * Debian - defaults to GNOME * SLE (defaults to GNOME with a bolted-on taskbar-type switcher) and openSUSE (defaults to KDE) As there are no other premiere-league distros that offer KDE as a first-class citizen, only as a non-default alternative, I feel that it could be a marketing point for the SUSE family. If SUSE lost mindshare by making a deal to keep shipping a Windows-like desktop, why doesn't it ship the premiere Windows-like desktop for all editions, by default? I am not sure what else to suggest, though. Previous times that I have brought this issue up, the feedback has been very negative. If I were to highlight some things that have occurred to me: * YaST is _the_ highlight. In the 1990s, other distros had comparable tools. Now, nothing else does. This should be the #1 selling point, IMHO. * A tested, integrated rolling-release distro is another. * Offering desktops no other distro does. GNUstep would be my first choice, since ROX-desktop is based on Python 2, and that is approaching EOL. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2019-01-16 17:00, Liam Proven wrote:

On 16/01/2019 16:45, Bjoern Voigt wrote:

...

Unfortunately. I trained Linux newbies over several years. In Germany it was clear, that we take SUSE Linux and later openSUSE. Most of the people in my courses also started using SUSE at home or at work. SUSE lost many of such users.

It upset a *lot* of FOSS people when SUSE signed a patent-sharing deal with Microsoft. This allowed it to continue using the very Windows-like KDE desktop without fear of litigation.

People get upset by a lot of things, and sometimes artificially so. The latest outrage seems to be user count estimation via yum. At the same time, Windows users are probably monitored much closer than what could be inferred from yum-related data, and nobody is lamenting that. (The world sure _is_ inside out!) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2019-01-16 19:00, Liam Proven wrote:

On 16/01/2019 18:53, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

The latest outrage seems to be user count estimation via yum.

I have not seen anything about this anywhere. I think it probably depends which communities you hang out in.

https://www.osnews.com/story/129189/fedora-uuids-and-user-tracking/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18913955 ..

...

At the same time, Windows users are probably monitored much closer than what could be inferred from yum-related data, and nobody is lamenting that.

_Au contraire_. I would go so far as to say that this is *the* #1 objection to Win10 among Windows users.

So then think of the thing(s) that stay constant between Win7 and Win10. Hint: everything that is not part of the base OS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 16. Jan 2019, 15:14:29 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

Am 16.01.19 um 13:36 schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

...

Hello, and good day.

I am often installing openSuSE on customer hardware (Laptops, Desktops, Servers). This worked well in the past, but in last time I notice an extreme (not to say scarying) increase of issues with Leap 15.0.

Excuse me, I am not convinced. Show me those weapons of mass destruction^W^W^W^W bugzilla entries. My experience with the SUSE kernel team is, that if make good bug reports for such issues, they are often fixed. :/

...

On younger hardware (not older than 1-2 years) this Leap 15 often causes troubles with even booting from the USB stick.

I do not own such new hardware, so cannot comment on that.

Two years old hardware is actually "slightly ancient" (in terms of hardware progress), not new. If one comes to me and wants to bus a computer, I cannot really sell him old hardware. :D

...

Even when successfully installing it somehow, it is not sure that ACPI is working, so Leap does the full shutdown but not power-off, and/or that the battery-status is available at all. Even worser, when running the default update in KDE (simply allowing all suggested updates), often ends up with a system where the boot process stops after displaying "Loading initial ramdisk".

Again, show us those bugreport numbers. Kernel regressions are fought even harder by the excellent SUSE kernel team.

As long as I can remember back it never(!) happened that an existing ISO image was replaced by a newer one. (Tumbleweed may possibly be the first exception, but I don't use it, so don't nail me up, I usually use Leap.). So the overall situation is as follows: 1. I have only one possible USB Stick with this one ISO on it. Using it, I always get the same base system installed first. (I am talking of a default setup, because it has to work reproducable, so I use the default settings.) As result the system may (or may not) boot and/or install at all. --> AT THIS POINT THE PROBLEM IS !!!!! It may boot or not !!! 2. Possible updates happen, as the name sais, always later and require a already installed (and at least partially running) system. 3. So when I cannot install the initial system on some hardware, the existing update mechanism will not work at all! -> Back to 1. 4. Because it does not install, I cannot get any useful information for debugging, so I also cannot supply something useful for bugzilla. Also, I am no developer. 5. Points 1-4 finally made me join to this list (after many years) again, to let related people know about the situation.

Complaining here will most likely not solve your problems. Creating bugzilla reports might.

Because I am almost sure that most of this problems will vanish with a new kernel (because this also made a very poorely running LEAP perfectly running after manual kernel replacement, I asked here if I can get a new ISO for testing on systems where the default one does not work. I ASKED. And I also suggested to make such DVD-ISO available for download. When this happens, I will be happy to test this ISO with the next problematic hardware, and then I can give feedback here. This is - from my point of view - the best and easiest way to find out if something works or not, especially when it is so clear to see where the problem is located. See above, points 1-4, too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I get the impression that some people think that I am talking of one particular computer. This is NOT the case. I am talking of several different computers where I experienced similar effects. Also I conclude from some of meanwhile received messages here: Yes, I am NO DEVELOPER. I am an advanced user only, but I usially don't fiddle around in depths as necessary here. About isolating the problem (as lproven requests) ... Am Mittwoch, 16. Jan 2019, 16:29:54 schrieb Liam Proven:

This is not Windows.

Here's one option you never even mentioned:

Put the disk in a different machine, install and update the core OS, then transplant it into the new, problematic machine and see if that fixes it.

Partially I mentioned that already. :) I confirmed that I was able to install Leap 15 on one machine (here I only had extreme problems with ACPI, but the initial kernel survived them and continued booting, so I was able to proceed. Doing updates without locking the kernel, ended up in a system that did not boot any more, it stopped directly in the line "Loading initial ramdisk ...". Selecting then the original kernel version in grub2 did boot again. -> This is indicating that something became worser with the newer kernel. So I re-installed from scratch and locked then the kernel in Yast before running the first update, all other updates were done. The result was an updated system, still running the original setup kernel, and not running worser than before. (So everything is updated except the kernel, therefore ACPI related things still not working.) -> Many things changed by update, except kernel, and system is (still) booting, but not supporting ACPI. Again indicating that the kernel is the reason. Then "fvogt" helped me to install kernel 4.20, and after that everything was working well, including ACPI. (Now with new kernel 4.20). -> This again indicates a kernel issue. With laptops this is not easy to do! Some have soldered-in SSD on the mainboard, others have a SSD as plugin-card. Usually such (current) ones often cause this problems or even totaly refuse to boot from the stick (Grub comes, but booting the installer freezes as above). In addition, I cannot disassemble a brand new laptop I want to sell, please understand. So what I want to do is: Have a stick at hands which has the 4.20 kernel (or at least a 4.19). When such computer appears again, I can simply try that stick and give feedback. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/01/2019 17:30, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

With laptops this is not easy to do! Some have soldered-in SSD on the mainboard, others have a SSD as plugin-card. Usually such (current) ones often cause this problems or even totaly refuse to boot from the stick (Grub comes, but booting the installer freezes as above).

So, you can image a disk from another machine, then.

In addition, I cannot disassemble a brand new laptop I want to sell, please understand.

Hmm. I have worked for a number of resellers in my career and that kind of thing is commonly done in my world. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Em qua, 16 de jan de 2019 às 12:57, Rainer Hantsch escreveu:

Because I am almost sure that most of this problems will vanish with a new kernel (because this also made a very poorely running LEAP perfectly running after manual kernel replacement, I asked here if I can get a new ISO for testing on systems where the default one does not work. I ASKED. And I also suggested to make such DVD-ISO available for download.

Hi, Maybe this blog post can help you creating a Leap image with recent kernel: https://lizards.opensuse.org/2017/03/16/fun-things-to-do-with-driver-updates... Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16.01.19 18:53, Carlos E. R. wrote: [...]

...

Great! Have you submit the bugs for those issues?

He said the install system fails to boot, Leap can not be installed, so how obtain data for the bugzilla?

Opening and describing a bug would help the project to have notice about the issue. I agree that having some kind of logs is more then helpful but one could assume we would not have this discussion if users would care more to submit bugs even without logs.

Yes, I have also found people complaining of this. They simply installed another distro instead.

And this is legit. Its the community and the project who have to improve.

...

If I'm getting it correctly, bottom down, there is a request to support "newer" hardware.

No, an optional downloadable install media with new kernel, not officially supported.

And therefor we are providing obs and kiwi. Writing a howto here is more useful the having this abstract discussion. just my 2 cents H. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, 17 January 2019 9:20 Rainer Hantsch wrote:

But this is for sure NOT what will help to get a better ranking in distros - and this should be the most important thing, no?

I sincerely hope it isn't. Michal Kubecek -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 17-01-19 09:31, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:

As there is already another thread on the same subject that is a lot more constructive, could we please drop the shenanigans here? Thank you

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 4:20 PM Rainer Hantsch wrote:

...

Hello.

Am Donnerstag, 17. Jan 2019, 08:46:18 schrieb Haris Sehic:

...

...

He said the install system fails to boot, Leap can not be installed, so how obtain data for the bugzilla? Opening and describing a bug would help the project to have notice about the issue. I agree that having some kind of logs is more then helpful but one could assume we would not have this discussion if users would care more to submit bugs even without logs. Yes, I shall do this, I shall do that .... Am I the first one on Earth having this issue with installing openSUSE? I am absolutely sure I am NOT.

If you prefer to find a report in bugzilla, YOU are invited now by me to create one. I have my personal experiences with bugzilla, try to prevent it therefore, and prefer to communicate with people directly. (I will not tell more details in this point.)

I think the problem is meanwhile described and known well enough to work on a solution?

...

...

Yes, I have also found people complaining of this. They simply installed another distro instead. And this is legit. Its the community and the project who have to improve. But this is for sure NOT what will help to get a better ranking in distros - and this should be the most important thing, no? People thinking like you are often the death of wonderful projects (as openSUSE is).

...

...

...

If I'm getting it correctly, bottom down, there is a request to support "newer" hardware. No, an optional downloadable install media with new kernel, not officially supported. And therefor we are providing obs and kiwi. Writing a howto here is more useful the having this abstract discussion. Oh, yessss.... I was waiting for this. OBS and KIWI is exactly what a USER (no developer!!!!) needs. Because it is so "easy" to create an entire DVD ISO with it. Such things are good for developers who know this tool very well, but a USER is (including me) overstrained by them.

...

just my 2 cents

H. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Yes, lets ignore this non-constructive thread. Criticism without the will to help for change is soooo cheap.

-- F. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Rainer Hantsch wrote:

...

...

...

If I'm getting it correctly, bottom down, there is a request to support "newer" hardware. No, an optional downloadable install media with new kernel, not officially supported.

And therefor we are providing obs and kiwi. Writing a howto here is more useful the having this abstract discussion.

Oh, yessss.... I was waiting for this. OBS and KIWI is exactly what a USER (no developer!!!!) needs. Because it is so "easy" to create an entire DVD ISO with it. Such things are good for developers who know this tool very well, but a USER is (including me) overstrained by them.

I have already deleted the post, but someone pointed to the wiki entry to create your own ISO image with different/additional kernels and drivers. Did you read/try that? I definitely bookmarked that page for the future... https://lizards.opensuse.org/2017/03/16/fun-things-to-do-with-driver-updates... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Em qui, 17 de jan de 2019 às 09:28, Rainer Hantsch escreveu:

Hello, Peter.

No, this is absolutely new to me. It reads very interesting. I didn't know that it exists.

I see the tool is for Tumbleweed. Can it still create/modify a Leap-ISO with it, or do you think it is totally bound to Tumbleweed?

For sure I will install Tumbleweed in a VM and try it out. Since my VirtualBOX was updated a few days ago (I don't open its main GUI often), Leap 15 surprisingly works stable in it. So a setup of TW should work, too. This way I possibly can try to make my own unofficial USB stick, too.

Thank you for this link!

Hi, This tool is not TW only, its available on Leap as well, just install (mkdud and mksusecd) in any openSUSE system you have at hand. For a more recent version of the programs, you can set the devs repo: https://build.opensuse.org/repositories/home:snwint:ports Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 17.01.19 09:20, Rainer Hantsch wrote: [...]

If you prefer to find a report in bugzilla, YOU are invited now by me to create one. I have my personal experiences with bugzilla, try to prevent it therefore, and prefer to communicate with people directly. (I will not tell more details in this point.)

Sure I can open it for you, would you be so kind and provide me a following infos: - Error Description - Hardware Type and version - uefi/legacy boot - BIOS Version - SHIM version - Media type you have used - additional information you consider important - (and possibly screenshot?) Please be aware most of the developers are volunteers and we don't have Service Level Agreement, therefor solution can not be guaranteed, but we will do our best.

I think the problem is meanwhile described and known well enough to work on a solution?

ups?

...

...

Yes, I have also found people complaining of this. They simply installed another distro instead.

And this is legit. Its the community and the project who have to improve.

But this is for sure NOT what will help to get a better ranking in distros - and this should be the most important thing, no? People thinking like you are often the death of wonderful projects (as openSUSE is).

To be honest I can not agree that we want to have better ranking on distrowatch or similar and for the name calling... :) hmmm I was call many things but this is first ... Can I quote you in the future?

...

...

...

If I'm getting it correctly, bottom down, there is a request to support "newer" hardware. No, an optional downloadable install media with new kernel, not officially supported.

And therefor we are providing obs and kiwi. Writing a howto here is more useful the having this abstract discussion.

Oh, yessss.... I was waiting for this.

:) As we all can see :)

OBS and KIWI is exactly what a USER (no developer!!!!) needs. Because it is so "easy" to create an entire DVD ISO with it.

Interesting you bringing this out. Where exactly is a difference between user and a lazy developer? for some time now I'm trying to figure this out. One can also ask where is a difference between lazy businesses owner and guy who wants to help by investing the minimal effort? just trowing some thought out ...

Such things are good for developers who know this tool very well, but a USER is (including me) overstrained by them.

Good point, and the reason why I was proposing for a howto, which you IIRC got by now. You are welcome :) Cheers H. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 17.01.19 um 09:20 schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

Hello.

Am Donnerstag, 17. Jan 2019, 08:46:18 schrieb Haris Sehic:

...

...

He said the install system fails to boot, Leap can not be installed, so how obtain data for the bugzilla?

Opening and describing a bug would help the project to have notice about the issue. I agree that having some kind of logs is more then helpful but one could assume we would not have this discussion if users would care more to submit bugs even without logs.

Yes, I shall do this, I shall do that .... Am I the first one on Earth having this issue with installing openSUSE? I am absolutely sure I am NOT.

If you prefer to find a report in bugzilla, YOU are invited now by me to create one. I have my personal experiences with bugzilla, try to prevent it therefore, and prefer to communicate with people directly. (I will not tell more details in this point.)

I think the problem is meanwhile described and known well enough to work on a solution?

No, it's not. "Some hardware fails to boot with Leap 15 kernel" "On some mainboards, ACPI does not work with Leap 15 kernel". That's not enough information to even start looking at your issue. Either you have to help fixing the issues by providing the necessary information, or you would need to supply the hardware to someone who is willing to do this for you.

But this is for sure NOT what will help to get a better ranking in distros - and this should be the most important thing, no? People thinking like you are often the death of wonderful projects (as openSUSE is).

Distrowatch rank is absolutely no priority on my Todo list. Actually (playing devils advocate here), if openSUSE would switch to be based on, say, RHEL instead of SUSE/SLES, then this would not affect me much, als long as the things I like about it (easy way to contribute, availability of OBS/openQA tests, ...) would stay the same. Everyone has her or his own priorities, if distrowatch rank is important for you, the only way to improve it is to either get someone to fix this (impossible in my case, there is no way for you to shift my priorities...) or you do it by yourself. For which a first step would be to create proper bugzilla entries for your issues, so they can eventually get fixed. If you want an install medium with a recent upstream kernel, then create one. OBS is there, go ahead. Complaining here without showing the intent to help will just alienate the people that might be able to help you. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 1/19/19 2:05 PM, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

A few days ago my friend's workmate bought a cheap, new MEDION Laptop at Hofer/Aldi. They both (my friend and his workmate) do not use openSUSE, they use other OSes.

It was absolutely impossible to boot+install their favorite Linux with kernel older than 4.19. They finally tried a distro with this newer 4.19 kernel (I think it was MX Linux, coming with kernel 4.19.

So my initial assumption, that the problems are caused by the ancient default kernel in Leap 15, is hereby confirmed.

Your message sounds somewhat confusing. Did they try to install openSUSE Leap 15 or not? If not then you still don't have a proof that Leap 15 does not run on this hardware because Leap's kernel-default contains *many* backport patches. Ciao, Michael.

Am Samstag, 19. Januar 2019, 14:23:42 CET schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

But of course, before making a unofficial ISO with 4.19 and simply let some people test it (I offer my help in this point), it is much easier to do nothing and wait if the problem solves by itself.

....or to use Tumbleweed, which I prefer anyway, and I'm just a user as well! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 19. Januar 2019, 14:41:05 CET schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

Am Samstag, 19. Jan 2019, 14:28:36 schrieb Axel Braun:

...

Am Samstag, 19. Januar 2019, 14:23:42 CET schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

...

But of course, before making a unofficial ISO with 4.19 and simply let some people test it (I offer my help in this point), it is much easier to do nothing and wait if the problem solves by itself.

....or to use Tumbleweed, which I prefer anyway, and I'm just a user as well!

But what if I prefer LEAP because of some reason? (This remembers me so much to "useful" chats where one asks for a solution for his problem and gets 100 answers to do it different... =8-O )

I would call this an active community for support....

I _have_ installed the latest TW in a VM. Ok, it got closer to Leap, this is right, but I am not really willing to be scaried by every particular update to find out if everything is afterwards (still) as before or not. And TW for sure has lots more of them than Leap.

Up to you how much updates you do! I usually do not go for every update, only if there is some security stuff or new functionality/bugfixes for packages I'm interested in.

You will not make me switch to TW, this is for sure, and I have my good reasons. And I really hope that Leap 15.1 will be more like 42.3 again or that I will (still) be able to reinstall all removed packagaes again. 15.0 was/is really a brutal change.

Can you explain in what way it was a 'brutal change' and what '...will be more like 42.3' means? I use Leap on some machines as well, upgrade from 42.3 went smooth...so I cant complain Cheers Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 19.01.19 um 14:05 schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

I will be happy to receive such DVD-ISO, I could test it then at first chance.

OK, I'll create one for you. I'd estimate the time I need to do this is about 4 hours. My hourly rate is €200. Send me a check, I'll send you the ISO. Deal? -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 19. Januar 2019, 14:52:46 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:

On 19/01/2019 14.47, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Am 19.01.19 um 14:05 schrieb Rainer Hantsch:

...

I will be happy to receive such DVD-ISO, I could test it then at first chance.> OK, I'll create one for you.

I'd estimate the time I need to do this is about 4 hours. My hourly rate is €200. Send me a check, I'll send you the ISO.

Deal?

Good grief :-/

Indeed. Maybe I should swap jobs with Stefan..... ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/01/2019 15:48, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

I will unsubscribe from here in short time if this is waste of time, as it seems to be of no real interest to get such fundamental problems (as sticking with old kernels) solved as quick as possible.

You are of course free to do that. But the thing is, various people have tried to explain to you, step by step, why openSUSE does not do this. You ignore it. You don't engage with the arguments. You don't counter them. You don't discuss it. You just keep saying what you want, over and over again, without listening. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 at 21:41, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 02:05:44PM +0100, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

...

So it seems that a new ISO with kernel 4.19 everywhere, should fix most of this troubles.

It might... except it would also _bring_ one big problem you seem to be ignoring (even if Stefan already hinted at it): finding a volunteer who would spend time on preparing such image and - even more important - keep maintaining the respective kernel branch.

Not to mention that if this hypothetical image kept following upstream stable-4.19.y, it would become (in your terms) "ancient" pretty soon anyway. Because even if stable branches receive a lot of patches which wouldn't be considered in the past, their aim still isn't backporting of new device drivers.

Having an image with Tumbleweed kernel would make way more sense - and would mean much less work.

Michal Kubecek

I agree that the Tumbleweed kernel is a better choice for this scenario than any other kernel we have If we're seriously entertaining the idea of alternative installation media for Leap I would like to advocate for it not just focusing on an alternative Kernel Like I've said repeatedly, in my experience Leap 15.0's kernel has never been the cause of a problem on new hardware, but issues with shim/grub2 have crept up multiple times. Also udev once. If we really do want to universally solve this for Leap, I think we'd need to look at casting the net wider and including more than just an updated kernel else we'll just find ourselves reading threads like these again. And while I wouldn't consider SUSE's lack of interest in this being a blocker to such an effort, given Leap is based on SLE and we're talking about replacing key parts of that SLE base system (even if it's on an optional basis), I'd also wonder whether SUSE, especially SUSE Product Management would be interested in something like this also? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/01/2019 14:05, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

It seems (and this is also the opinion of other people I asked) that a new sort of BIOS is coming out. This new BIOS seems to have drastical internal changes.

Do you mean UEFI? UEFI is a pain.

I also saw on the systems where I had lots of troubles (but was able to boot from the stick) that a lot of errors was shown. All of them related to BIOS tables that were missing and/or not understood (I already mentioned that).

IME it is often necessary to update the firmware on a machine -- all kinds -- to successfully install Linux. Firmware is, by and large, *only* tested with Windows. Sad but true.

So it seems that a new ISO with kernel 4.19 everywhere, should fix most of this troubles.

For now. But in another few months it would be broken again when some unforeseen new firmware change comes along. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/01/2019 11.05, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 16.01.19 um 18:53 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

...

If I'm getting it correctly, bottom down, there is a request to support "newer" hardware.

No, an optional downloadable install media with new kernel, not officially supported.

The tools are there. If someone really wants this, all he needs to do is cook up an image in OBS. Or find someone to do it. Unfortunately the number of complainers is often much higher than the number of "do-ers".

The original complaint is from someone who installs Linux on customers systems for a living, so this would be a welcome opportunity to give something back to the community ;-)

Very few people are able to cook an install DVD. I tried using that kiwi web service, and failed. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 19:58:42 +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

2. Extend the current DVD ISO to allow to choose between current official kernel and this new 4.20 kernel. (I am no developer, I don't know how to do that).

This should be rather easy, and even doable with the current installer. In the online repo setup, you can add your own repo, and just put OBS Kernel:stable repo there. That's all.

BTW, the kernel in OBS Kernel:stable repo has one big disadvantage. It's not signed with the official openSUSE key, thus it won't boot with secure boot. OTOH, if we take the real TW kernel package, it should work with secure boot, too. But it's not quite straightforward to assign a repo only for fetching the kernel package, as it seems. So usually I've recommended to install Kernel:stable package. But if this scenario (providing TW kernel for Leap) becomes more popular, we should reconsider a better way (e.g. a repo aggregating only the TW kernel package). Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 21:04:02 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 21:00, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

BTW, the kernel in OBS Kernel:stable repo has one big disadvantage. It's not signed with the official openSUSE key, thus it won't boot with secure boot. OTOH, if we take the real TW kernel package, it should work with secure boot, too.

But it's not quite straightforward to assign a repo only for fetching the kernel package, as it seems. So usually I've recommended to install Kernel:stable package. But if this scenario (providing TW kernel for Leap) becomes more popular, we should reconsider a better way (e.g. a repo aggregating only the TW kernel package).

Takashi

Most of the not-booting issues I've seen lately with modern hardware seem to be more related to UEFI/shim/Grub issues, causing black-screens of nothingness before the kernel comes into play

I'm not saying this to discourage the idea, but if we're going to invest significant time and effort into a solution for this complex problem, I don't think we should be setting peoples expectations too high - the kernel doesn't solve everything ;)

Yes, fully agreed. It's always good to have a bug report when a Leap doesn't work -- no matter whether the upstream kernel works or not. OTOH, there are known sets of not-well-supported hardware components. Recent AMD GPU is one of them for Leap 15.0, for example. They are indeed hard to support better with a fixed kernel like Leap, and it'd better to provide some level of workaround from the beginning. Overall, I'm not loudly advocating this TW kernel + Leap usage pattern, either. However, interestingly, it's also a combo of many (?) kernel developers actually take, AFAIK. This implies that, if you can bear with the frequent update of kernel (and with possible upstream kernel regressions), it's not too unrealistically bad choice. thanks, Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/01/2019 13.04, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Takashi Iwai schrieb:

...

[...] OTOH, there are known sets of not-well-supported hardware components. Recent AMD GPU is one of them for Leap 15.0, for example.  They are indeed hard to support better with a fixed kernel like Leap, and it'd better to provide some level of workaround from the beginning.

Who has such a machine and can document the workarounds needed? If there's a significant number of systems affected in the same way maybe it's even worth to put that in the release notes¹ so $searchengine can find it.

I know someone with a Nvidia Optimus laptop that doesn't work properly with 15.0, but did with previous releases. We have tried several times to help, but apparently unsuccessfully. I can ask him brand and model. I don't remember if there is a bugzilla.

I dare to point at the hardware section in the wiki² as it is horribly outdated. Maybe someone wants to step up and take the lead there to fill it with life again?

There was someone that created a package to populate a database with hardware details for every willing user. But only for TW. Not more than a year ago. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 21:00:15 +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 19:58:42 +0100, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

...

2. Extend the current DVD ISO to allow to choose between current official kernel and this new 4.20 kernel. (I am no developer, I don't know how to do that).

This should be rather easy, and even doable with the current installer. In the online repo setup, you can add your own repo, and just put OBS Kernel:stable repo there. That's all.

BTW, the kernel in OBS Kernel:stable repo has one big disadvantage. It's not signed with the official openSUSE key, thus it won't boot with secure boot. OTOH, if we take the real TW kernel package, it should work with secure boot, too.

... and last but not least, another bigger disadvantage is the lack of KMPs. The extra kernel module packages provided for Leap 15.0 kernel won't be available for this one. If there are alternative ones for TW, we can take them, though. Also, the Nvidia KMP build is often broken with each kernel version update. It'd be another reason to stick with TW kernel, not the bleeding edge one in OBS Kernel:stable. Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 11:14:47 +0100, Rainer Hantsch wrote:

If this is of any help to you, I can offer some testing.

I.e. leave me two little images,not doing much more than booting an extremely stripped-down system (just prompt in a rescue, or so), with latest TW kernel and kernel 4.20.

Then I can test which one works on next problematic hardware and give feedback.

Thanks for the offer, but basically we need no special hardware just for testing such an image or an update repo. It'll be applicable for all hardware, after all. Takashi

Am Donnerstag, 17. Jan 2019, 10:10:17 schrieb Takashi Iwai:

...

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 21:00:15 +0100,

Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 19:58:42 +0100,

Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

...

2. Extend the current DVD ISO to allow to choose between current official

kernel and this new 4.20 kernel. (I am no developer, I don't know how to do that).

This should be rather easy, and even doable with the current installer. In the online repo setup, you can add your own repo, and just put OBS Kernel:stable repo there. That's all.

BTW, the kernel in OBS Kernel:stable repo has one big disadvantage. It's not signed with the official openSUSE key, thus it won't boot with secure boot. OTOH, if we take the real TW kernel package, it should work with secure boot, too.

... and last but not least, another bigger disadvantage is the lack of KMPs. The extra kernel module packages provided for Leap 15.0 kernel won't be available for this one. If there are alternative ones for TW, we can take them, though.

Also, the Nvidia KMP build is often broken with each kernel version update. It'd be another reason to stick with TW kernel, not the bleeding edge one in OBS Kernel:stable.

Takashi

--

mit freundlichen Grüßen

Ing. Rainer Hantsch (Firmeninhaber)

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On Wednesday 2019-01-16 19:58, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

2. Extend the current DVD ISO to allow to choose between current official kernel and this new 4.20 kernel. (I am no developer, I don't know how to do that).

This should be rather easy, and even doable with the current installer. In the online repo setup, you can add your own repo, and just put OBS Kernel:stable repo there. That's all.

But putting it on the install media would make it even easier. Speaking of which, that is exactly what SUSE 5.3 did. YaST 0.99 would ask whether you wanted a 2.2 or a 2.4 kernel. Old but gold! Perhaps it's time for a little case of "back to the roots". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 2019-01-16 22:00, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

Speaking of which, that is exactly what SUSE 5.3 did. YaST 0.99 would ask whether you wanted a 2.2 or a 2.4 kernel.

Old but gold! Perhaps it's time for a little case of "back to the roots".

Heh, we're leaping back, right? :)

"back... to the future" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 16. Jan 2019, 21:51:56 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

On Wednesday 2019-01-16 19:58, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

...

2. Extend the current DVD ISO to allow to choose between current official

kernel and this new 4.20 kernel. (I am no developer, I don't know how to do that).

This should be rather easy, and even doable with the current installer. In the online repo setup, you can add your own repo, and just put OBS Kernel:stable repo there. That's all.

But putting it on the install media would make it even easier.

Speaking of which, that is exactly what SUSE 5.3 did. YaST 0.99 would ask whether you wanted a 2.2 or a 2.4 kernel.

Old but gold! Perhaps it's time for a little case of "back to the roots".

From my point of view (again, I am a user, no developer), offering two different kernels in GRUB is for sure the very best way.

The user can decide between the officially used kernel (in this case the install will end up 1:1 as now), or the v4.20 kernel (in this case the kernel and related modules will be the only difference). Appears very handsome to me. Imagine a usual install procedure: You visit somebody, having a suicided Windows computer (Laptop, Desktop, whatever). What happens is: You plug in the USB stick, boot, and it doesn't work. What now? Fiddle around many hours in fron of a user where you explained before the advantages of Linux? This leaves a very bad impression ("What, such complicated it is???"). Finally you pick in best case the whole computer and try to get the OS working on it in your own lab. -> This is for sure a very cost-effective method. You waste many hours with it. When I can choose an alternative kernel in such cases, it will give me at least a second chance to get this install solved. You need to keep in mind that there is for almost sure no Internet available (no second PC) where you try to install. So "everything needed" has to be on the install stick. Therefore a online install thingy is often not really practical (one of the reasons for asking here for an unofficial iso or any other useful solution). Rainer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org