4 Jun
2019
4 Jun
'19
3:08 p.m.
Hello,
My name is Igor. I'm long-time contributor in Fedora and started
recently to contribute to the openSUSE with focus on cross-distro
collaboration. I'm also contributor to many upstream projects which
includes RPM.
You can see my oSC19 talk here:
https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSC19/program/proposals/2489
There are still few things which are different between Fedora and
openSUSE spec files for rust packages, more specifically those are
license header, Group tag and changelog. While license header and
changelog things are not easy to fix, the Group one is.
In Fedora, we have removed all Group tags in F30:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Remove_Group_Tag
Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer to see some kind of
tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form
text field) and usually you can't put application into one group
because they belong to multiple groups.
I spoke to a few people on the oSC and it seems that only YaST is
using this information to generate UI. So it should be doable to
change its representation which is not based on the Group tag.
Considering above, is there some process like Fedora Changes
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Policy) in openSUSE where I
can propose this?
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4 Jun
4 Jun
3:13 p.m.
On Tuesday 2019-06-04 15:08, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
My name is Igor. I'm long-time contributor in Fedora [..]
https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSC19/program/proposals/2489 [..]
Groups are hard to choose [..]
You don't say.
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00465.html
https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00518.html
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/issues/632
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3:14 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 9:08 AM Igor Gnatenko
<ignatenkobrain(a)fedoraproject.org> wrote:
Hello,
My name is Igor. I'm long-time contributor in Fedora and started
recently to contribute to the openSUSE with focus on cross-distro
collaboration. I'm also contributor to many upstream projects which
includes RPM.
You can see my oSC19 talk here:
https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSC19/program/proposals/2489
There are still few things which are different between Fedora and
openSUSE spec files for rust packages, more specifically those are
license header, Group tag and changelog. While license header and
changelog things are not easy to fix, the Group one is.
In Fedora, we have removed all Group tags in F30:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Remove_Group_Tag
Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer to see some kind of
tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form
text field) and usually you can't put application into one group
because they belong to multiple groups.
I'm actually not a fan of the fact Fedora doesn't use the Group tag.
It's more or less a cop-out to not provide some kind of way to
organize all the packages in some manner. The fact that Fedora is the
*only* distro that doesn't use it speaks more to the fact that YUM
historically did not expose a way to sort using that tag. DNF does,
and frontends like dnfdragora can use it to sort.
I'd rather re-introduce a better formulated Group tag in Fedora, but
that takes some time I don't have right now...
I spoke to a few people on the oSC and it seems that
only YaST is
using this information to generate UI. So it should be doable to
change its representation which is not based on the Group tag.
Considering above, is there some process like Fedora Changes
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Policy) in openSUSE where I
can propose this?
Basically the way to do this is break everything by making submit
requests to delete it from everything, update the rpmlint policy to
flip from requiring a Group tag to requiring it to be eliminated, and
so on.
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3:15 p.m.
On 6/4/19 9:08 PM, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
Hello,
My name is Igor. I'm long-time contributor in Fedora and started
recently to contribute to the openSUSE with focus on cross-distro
collaboration. I'm also contributor to many upstream projects which
includes RPM.
You can see my oSC19 talk here:
https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSC19/program/proposals/2489
There are still few things which are different between Fedora and
openSUSE spec files for rust packages, more specifically those are
license header, Group tag and changelog. While license header and
changelog things are not easy to fix, the Group one is.
In Fedora, we have removed all Group tags in F30:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Remove_Group_Tag
Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer to see some kind of
tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form
text field) and usually you can't put application into one group
because they belong to multiple groups.
I spoke to a few people on the oSC and it seems that only YaST is
using this information to generate UI. So it should be doable to
change its representation which is not based on the Group tag.
Considering above, is there some process like Fedora Changes
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Policy) in openSUSE where I
can propose this?
+1 from me
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3:15 p.m.
Igor Gnatenko píše v Út 04. 06. 2019 v 15:08 +0200:
Hello,
My name is Igor. I'm long-time contributor in Fedora and started
recently to contribute to the openSUSE with focus on cross-distro
collaboration. I'm also contributor to many upstream projects which
includes RPM.
You can see my oSC19 talk here:
https://events.opensuse.org/conferences/oSC19/program/proposals/2489
There are still few things which are different between Fedora and
openSUSE spec files for rust packages, more specifically those are
license header, Group tag and changelog. While license header and
changelog things are not easy to fix, the Group one is.
In Fedora, we have removed all Group tags in F30:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Remove_Group_Tag
Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer to see some kind of
tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form
text field) and usually you can't put application into one group
because they belong to multiple groups.
I spoke to a few people on the oSC and it seems that only YaST is
using this information to generate UI. So it should be doable to
change its representation which is not based on the Group tag.
Considering above, is there some process like Fedora Changes
(https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Policy) in openSUSE where I
can propose this?
We are already in process of abandoning it. See the thread 'Killing
Group tag in .spec files' on this ML.
In short I think we removed it now everywhere except the packagehub
website [1]. @ismail could you give up some feedback if you guys are
still relying on this?
When that gets solved we can kill it right away.
Cheers
Tom
[1] https://packagehub.suse.com/package-categories/archiving/
3:19 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 04, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer to
see some kind of
tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form
text field) and usually you can't put application into one group
because they belong to multiple groups.
If I look at the Group tags from openSUSE spec files: somebody copies
a draft specfile, somebody has no idea, doesn't find the right group,
whatever: many Group entries are wrong, useless or something similar,
so from no benefit for users. So removing them would not really change
the situation, so I'm in favour of it.
Thorsten
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SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany
GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah, HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg)
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4:44 p.m.
On Tuesday 2019-06-04 15:19, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:
On Tue, Jun 04, Igor Gnatenko wrote:
Most Group entries are actually right, good enough, or something
similar.
I have to know. A bot sends me a mail about every openSUSE:Factory
submit request, and I should be known as someone who jumps at metadata
any time.
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Groups are hard to choose (I would rather prefer
to see some kind of
tags), there is no check from RPM itself (it is basically free-form
text field) and usually you can't put application into one group
because they belong to multiple groups.
If I look at the Group tags from openSUSE spec files: somebody copies
a draft specfile, somebody has no idea, doesn't find the right group,
whatever: many Group entries are wrong, useless or something similar,
27 Aug
27 Aug
9:09 a.m.
Hi,
Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback on this I've
created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group
tag if encountered:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256
Cheers
Tom
Q: Do I have to do anything?
A: Nothing unless you want to, if you use spec-cleaner it will be auto
removed.
Q: What about SLE and backporting to older releases?
A: Packages without groups will generate RPMlint warning, but apart
from that are okay for submission (again the group is not really
visible to the end
user).N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�
9:46 a.m.
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback
That's twisting reality quite a bit there.
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9:50 a.m.
Jan Engelhardt píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 09:46 +0200:
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Your lonely complain is not a major pushback...
TomN�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�
Tiny followup on this. As there was no major
pushback
That's twisting reality quite a bit there.
10:23 a.m.
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:50, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Jan Engelhardt píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 09:46 +0200:
It must be said the proponents of removing it were _equally_ lonely.
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On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal
wrote:
Your lonely complain is not a major pushback... Tiny followup on this. As there was no major
pushback
That's twisting reality quite a bit there.
10:41 a.m.
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 10:23, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:50, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
>Jan Engelhardt píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 09:46 +0200:
>> On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
>>
>> > Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback
>>
>> That's twisting reality quite a bit there.
>
>Your lonely complain is not a major pushback...
[1] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00465.html
[2] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00518.html
[3] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00467.html
[4] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2019-06/msg00055.html
So two people want to get rid of Group tags. Most package maintainers give a
literal fuck: For them, the field might as well _stay_, because removing is
work, too, and luckily there's a crazy German keeping the Group line up to date
for them anyway. Not to mention that proposal of his to repurpose the field
as a more useful Tags line. So, based on the old credo "those who do, decide",
I do not feel forcing Group: out in a scripted fashion makes a very good
picture of the efforts put in. And that pisses me off.
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11:25 a.m.
Am 27.08.19 um 10:41 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 10:23, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
I see your point. But I think we really should eliminate *the need* to have a
group line. Because for many packages it's just BS. Can we meet there?
Greetings, Stephan
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On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:50, Tomas Chvatal
wrote:
> Jan Engelhardt píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 09:46 +0200:
>> On Tuesday 2019-08-27 09:09, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
>>
>>> Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback
>>
>> That's twisting reality quite a bit there.
>
> Your lonely complain is not a major pushback...
[1] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00465.html
[2] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00518.html
[3] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-05/msg00467.html
[4] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2019-06/msg00055.html
So two people want to get rid of Group tags. Most package maintainers give a
literal fuck: For them, the field might as well _stay_, because removing is
work, too, and luckily there's a crazy German keeping the Group line up to date
for them anyway. Not to mention that proposal of his to repurpose the field
as a more useful Tags line. So, based on the old credo "those who do, decide",
I do not feel forcing Group: out in a scripted fashion makes a very good
picture of the efforts put in. And that pisses me off.
1:20 p.m.
On Tuesday 2019-08-27 11:25, Stephan Kulow wrote:
That goal is already reached. The Group tag has not been considered
mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only polishing
left:
* rpmlint's warnings
* the Specfile Guideline wiki page needs a touch-up to
explicitly declare it as "optional"; right now it is unspecified.
Neither of these mandate active removal good Group lines.
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luckily
there's a German keeping the Group line up to date [..]. Not
to mention that proposal of his to repurpose the field as a more
useful Tags line. I do not feel forcing Group: out in a scripted
fashion makes a very good picture of the efforts put in.
I see your point. But I think we really should eliminate *the need* to have a
group line. Because for many packages it's just BS. Can we meet there? 
28 Aug
28 Aug
9:38 a.m.
On 8/27/19 1:20 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
[...] The Group tag has not been considered
mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only polishing
left:
Also the output of 'rpm -qi' would look strange:
$ rpm -qi $PACKAGE | grep ^Group
Group : Unspecified
Have a nice day,
Berny
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1:51 p.m.
Am 28.08.19 um 09:38 schrieb Bernhard Voelker:
On 8/27/19 1:20 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Sounds easy to patch in rpm
Greetings, Stephan
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[...] The Group tag has not been considered
mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only polishing
left:
Also the output of 'rpm -qi' would look strange:
$ rpm -qi $PACKAGE | grep ^Group
Group : Unspecified
4:49 p.m.
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 7:51 AM Stephan Kulow <coolo(a)suse.de> wrote:
Am 28.08.19 um 09:38 schrieb Bernhard Voelker:
Unless it make it hide it iff it renders Unspecified and show up otherwise...
That said, Zypper and YaST currently sort and organize RPMs via the
Group tag. What are you going to do about that? You're going to need a
better way to render that view if all the RPMs suddenly become
"Unspecified"...
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On 8/27/19 1:20 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Sounds easy to patch in rpm
[...] The Group tag has not been considered
mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only polishing
left:
Also the output of 'rpm -qi' would look strange:
$ rpm -qi $PACKAGE | grep ^Group
Group : Unspecified 
4:57 p.m.
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:49 PM, Neal Gompa <ngompa13(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 7:51 AM Stephan Kulow
<coolo(a)suse.de> wrote:
Not the case for YaST anymore:
https://github.com/libyui/libyui-qt-pkg/commit/e7709a7f9a52423316ea529f670c…
https://github.com/libyui/libyui-ncurses-pkg/commit/8f1e61b356cfec6e024e168…
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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Am 28.08.19 um 09:38 schrieb Bernhard Voelker:
Sounds easy to patch in rpm
Unless it make it hide it iff it renders Unspecified and show up
otherwise...
That said, Zypper and YaST currently sort and organize RPMs via the
Group tag. What are you going to do about that? You're going to need a
better way to render that view if all the RPMs suddenly become
"Unspecified"... On 8/27/19 1:20 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
> [...] The Group tag has not been considered
> mandatory by tooling for a while, I believe. There is only
polishing
left:
Also the output of 'rpm -qi' would look strange:
$ rpm -qi $PACKAGE | grep ^Group
Group : Unspecified 
27 Aug
27 Aug
2:40 p.m.
Am Dienstag, 27. August 2019, 11:25:19 CEST schrieb Stephan Kulow:
I see your point. But I think we really should eliminate *the need* to have
a group line. Because for many packages it's just BS. Can we meet there?
+1
OTOH, I cannot see a good reason to *actively* *eliminate* the Group line
either, other than throwing away good work of good people.
A thousand years ago, people incited the crusades, just because there were
other people, that doesn't fit their expectations.
Folks, don't incite a crusade against Group lines, please. They will not hurt
you.
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10:02 a.m.
Am 27.08.19 um 09:09 schrieb Tomas Chvatal:
Q: What about SLE and backporting to older releases?
A: Packages without groups will generate RPMlint warning
Then please get a rpmlint update into SLE-{11,12,15}-{GA,SP{1,2,3,4}}.
This is annoying as hell and creates support effort for many people.
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"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over
public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
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10:13 a.m.
Stefan Seyfried píše v Út 27. 08. 2019 v 10:02 +0200:
Am 27.08.19 um 09:09 schrieb Tomas Chvatal:
It is just SLE-12 (GA+SP1+SP2+SP3) and 15.
SLE11 I don't see any reason why that one should be done as it is under
LTSS support for 2 months now.
The fix is oneliner so I don't see a reason why not release that
really.
But honestly I don't consider it being too important. There are so many
warnings there printed right now, with older codestreams even
misleading... about update-alternatives/buildroot/clean...
Only tw lists around 14 000 warnings on something like 7000 packages,
which means 2 per pkg...
https://rpmlint.opensuse.org/
If it would be an Error then I agree we would need to release rpmlint
updates prior the change, but like this it is mostly noop.
Tom
Q: What about SLE and backporting to older
releases?
A: Packages without groups will generate RPMlint warning
Then please get a rpmlint update into SLE-{11,12,15}-
{GA,SP{1,2,3,4}}.
This is annoying as hell and creates support effort for many people.
29 Aug
29 Aug
10:51 a.m.
Am 27.08.19 um 09:09 schrieb Tomas Chvatal:
Hi,
Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback on this I've
created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group
tag if encountered:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256
SLES11 rpm chokes on missing group tag.
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3 Sep
3 Sep
2:31 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 4:52 AM Stefan Seyfried
<stefan.seyfried(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 27.08.19 um 09:09 schrieb Tomas Chvatal:
If you can convince SUSE to backport the following fixes to SLE 11's
rpm package, that'd be amazing:
*
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/commit/c094de4d1017af3ffbe89…
*
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/commit/6c0651926aedc302816a0…
I just wish the issues with using stronger/better GPG keys wouldn't
break rpm 4.4... I'm waiting patiently for the day that I can retire
my weak RSA GPG key used for SLE 11 packages...
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Hi,
Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback on this I've
created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group
tag if encountered:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256
SLES11 rpm chokes on missing group tag.
2:19 p.m.
On 8/27/19 9:09 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Tiny followup on this. As there was no major pushback
on this I've
created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group
tag if encountered:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256
(Are there) next steps?
Have a nice day,
Berny
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4 Sep
4 Sep
3:18 a.m.
On Tuesday 2019-09-03 14:19, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 8/27/19 9:09 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Since yast2-sw_single no longer displays groups, I have now made a basic
alternate program to bring back the functionality of a software
catalogue browser that, like yast2_sw, reads the Group: field and
presents a tree.
https://github.com/jengelh/rpm-catalog
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:jengelh:dev/rpm-catalog
This is meant to operate with a modern tag/category/keyword list, akin
to SO tags, placed in the Group: field. The program equally eats the
"Foo/Bar/Baz" groups of current packages.
Naturally, such a browser can only work if there is group/tag
information to begin with.
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Tiny followup on this. As there was no major
pushback on this I've
created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group
tag if encountered:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256
(Are there) next steps?
3:26 a.m.
On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 9:18 PM Jan Engelhardt <jengelh(a)inai.de> wrote:
On Tuesday 2019-09-03 14:19, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
I'll just point out that your readme indicates that the Debian
"Section" field lets you set multiple values. This is wrong. You can
only set _one_ value, just like the Group tag in RPM. The "tags" you
see in the Debian package search web UI only exist there and nowhere
else. Fedora's tagger service did something similar, but it was
equally pointless.
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On 8/27/19 9:09 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
Since yast2-sw_single no longer displays groups, I have now made a basic
alternate program to bring back the functionality of a software
catalogue browser that, like yast2_sw, reads the Group: field and
presents a tree.
https://github.com/jengelh/rpm-catalog
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:jengelh:dev/rpm-catalog
This is meant to operate with a modern tag/category/keyword list, akin
to SO tags, placed in the Group: field. The program equally eats the
"Foo/Bar/Baz" groups of current packages.
Naturally, such a browser can only work if there is group/tag
information to begin with. Tiny followup on this. As there was no major
pushback on this I've
created request to have next release of spec-cleaner to drop the group
tag if encountered:
https://github.com/rpm-software-management/spec-cleaner/issues/256
(Are there) next steps?
8:44 a.m.
On 9/4/19 3:18 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Since yast2-sw_single no longer displays groups, I
have now made a basic
alternate program to bring back the functionality of a software
catalogue browser that, like yast2_sw, reads the Group: field and
presents a tree.
https://github.com/jengelh/rpm-catalog
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:jengelh:dev/rpm-catalog
This is meant to operate with a modern tag/category/keyword list, akin
to SO tags, placed in the Group: field. The program equally eats the
"Foo/Bar/Baz" groups of current packages.
Naturally, such a browser can only work if there is group/tag
information to begin with.
IIUC that means that we don't have to remove the existing 'Group:' line
from the spec files, right?
Thanks & have a nice day,
Berny
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11:23 a.m.
On Wednesday 2019-09-04 08:44, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
On 9/4/19 3:18 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
There was never a time that you had to remove it.
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Since yast2-sw_single no longer displays groups,
I have now made a basic
alternate program to bring back the functionality of a software
catalogue browser that, like yast2_sw, reads the Group: field and
presents a tree.
https://github.com/jengelh/rpm-catalog
https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/home:jengelh:dev/rpm-catalog
This is meant to operate with a modern tag/category/keyword list, akin
to SO tags, placed in the Group: field. The program equally eats the
"Foo/Bar/Baz" groups of current packages.
Naturally, such a browser can only work if there is group/tag
information to begin with.
IIUC that means that we don't have to remove the existing 'Group:' line
from the spec files, right?
3:41 p.m.
On 9/4/19 11:23 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Wednesday 2019-09-04 08:44, Bernhard Voelker
wrote:
... apart from $SUBJECT (and e.g. the Fedora link in the 1st post). ;-)
Thanks & have a nice day,
Berny
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IIUC that means that we don't have to remove
the existing 'Group:' line
from the spec files, right?
There was never a time that you had to remove it.
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28 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
Bernhard Voelker -
Hans-Peter Jansen -
Igor Gnatenko -
Jan Engelhardt -
Maurizio Galli (MauG) -
Neal Gompa -
Stasiek Michalski -
Stefan Seyfried -
Stephan Kulow -
Thorsten Kukuk -
Tomas Chvatal