On 11/20/2011 6:32 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. November 2011, 23:02:06 schrieb James Knott:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Nope. You should work with the maintainers and not the packagers. It's impossible for those few KDE people at openSUSE to know all of KDE's code or fix everything you come up with. Thus it makes sense (effectiveness and efficiency-wise) to take upstream issues upstream and only bother openSUSE people with openSUSE specific issues.
There's already a bug report on openSUSE. Do those people not say we have a problem here and then go to the source?
For major issues, yes. But not for every little bug and wish. And in this case it has nothing to do with KDE anyway so it has to be taken to the NM devs. Which did happen.
If I were on the KDE team, I'd rather be hearing reports from the distros than all the users.
There are one to two people at openSUSE who take care of KDE, you can do the maths how much time they can spend on the product and whether they should waste some of that time for typing bug reports or doing the communication with upstream. They package and patch, they pick the major issues relevant for KDE, i.e. kdepim and packagekit-zypp backend for apper in 12.1, and then their time is gone. In an ideal world they might do all communication with upstream but with only one to two people around it makes more sense to keep everything off them that a user can do as well and let them concentrate on stuff a user cannot do.
Like I said, I'd have been fired from IBM, if I tried telling a user to go "upstream". What happens to people who buy the distro (I used to buy every version, until they changed the shipment method and made it very expensive in Canada) and pay for support? Will they be told to go upstream too?
Yes, because with that version only payed for the box, the manual, installation media and installation support. I bet at IBM people payed a bit more than just that.
This just yet another perfect example of what I've been saying about the change, (decline) in the the overall experience of a Suse user from a few years ago to today. I have been saying that it's the result of starting out with a highly polished, highly managed, non-diy distro, then decimating Suse's staff, then things are tolerable on inertia for a release or so, and by now it's really getting problematical because there is no longer the staff necessary to actually develop and test everything necessary to make a good distro while keeping up with software and hardware changes, and the distro is too managed to be well suited for DIY, and yet most user problem reports are answered with DIY answers and/or "file a bug report" without any expectation that filing a bug report will actually accomplish anything, it's just better to have them filed to amass data than not. It helps suse know where to spend it's few resources, it's more help to suse than to users. If this was a new distro, or if this was the way this distro always was, that would be one thing. You wouldn't have reasonable expectation of better. But this is not a new distro and the prior experience was much better and so there is utterly reasonable expectation of better. Like I keep saying, we have the worst of both worlds now. Why do I keep saying this? What do I want? I don't want or expect a perfect distro, especially on no staff and no money. (and the money/staff/sle/open issue is larger than I want to get into in this post) I mostly just want Suse staff and non-staff maintainers to stop telling users they are wrong for having problems! If you no longer have the staff to provide the previous level of user experience, then at least have the class to apologize for it! The OP was completely correct in his expression of the problem. If Suse can't even handle merely receiving that problem report let alone addressing it, that is an utter failure of Suse, not the user. Suse should be _apologizing_ not _criticizing_ pretty much by default these days. That would be the first step towards getting the "constructive" dialogue they claim to want. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org