Re: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-factory] Still openSUSE 12.1 - NetworkManager does it worst....
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Nope. You should work with the maintainers and not the packagers. It's impossible for those few KDE people at openSUSE to know all of KDE's code or fix everything you come up with. Thus it makes sense (effectiveness and efficiency-wise) to take upstream issues upstream and only bother openSUSE people with openSUSE specific issues.
There's already a bug report on openSUSE. Do those people not say we have a problem here and then go to the source? If I were on the KDE team, I'd rather be hearing reports from the distros than all the users. Like I said, I'd have been fired from IBM, if I tried telling a user to go "upstream". What happens to people who buy the distro (I used to buy every version, until they changed the shipment method and made it very expensive in Canada) and pay for support? Will they be told to go upstream too? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Samstag, 19. November 2011, 23:02:06 schrieb James Knott:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Nope. You should work with the maintainers and not the packagers. It's impossible for those few KDE people at openSUSE to know all of KDE's code or fix everything you come up with. Thus it makes sense (effectiveness and efficiency-wise) to take upstream issues upstream and only bother openSUSE people with openSUSE specific issues.
There's already a bug report on openSUSE. Do those people not say we have a problem here and then go to the source?
For major issues, yes. But not for every little bug and wish. And in this case it has nothing to do with KDE anyway so it has to be taken to the NM devs. Which did happen.
If I were on the KDE team, I'd rather be hearing reports from the distros than all the users.
There are one to two people at openSUSE who take care of KDE, you can do the maths how much time they can spend on the product and whether they should waste some of that time for typing bug reports or doing the communication with upstream. They package and patch, they pick the major issues relevant for KDE, i.e. kdepim and packagekit-zypp backend for apper in 12.1, and then their time is gone. In an ideal world they might do all communication with upstream but with only one to two people around it makes more sense to keep everything off them that a user can do as well and let them concentrate on stuff a user cannot do.
Like I said, I'd have been fired from IBM, if I tried telling a user to go "upstream". What happens to people who buy the distro (I used to buy every version, until they changed the shipment method and made it very expensive in Canada) and pay for support? Will they be told to go upstream too?
Yes, because with that version only payed for the box, the manual, installation media and installation support. I bet at IBM people payed a bit more than just that. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
For major issues, yes. But not for every little bug and wish. And in this case it has nothing to do with KDE anyway so it has to be taken to the NM devs. Which did happen.
The isn't a little bug. It's a major design fault that significantly restricts mobile use for corporate users. And it's because there was initially no clear cause that the distro team should deal with it, as they are the ones that have the overview of the entire distro. As a KDE user, I don't know about Gnome issues. On the other hand, the distro teams mission is to have a working system. To otherwise would have the KDE users bugging KDE, Gnome users bugging Gnome etc., which will result in finger pointing. Also, as I own my computers, this issue barely qualifies as annoying, but it's a show stopper for corporate users. If a corporate customer has paid for support, are they also supposed to take it upstream? If so, then we're back to the same situation as Ford or GM telling a customer to complain to the OEM about a defective part. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 20. November 2011, 07:36:35 schrieb James Knott:
Also, as I own my computers, this issue barely qualifies as annoying, but it's a show stopper for corporate users. If a corporate customer has paid for support, are they also supposed to take it upstream?
No. If you pay for support you get what you paid for. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 07:36 -0500, James Knott wrote: <snip>
The isn't a little bug. It's a major design fault that significantly restricts mobile use for corporate users. And it's because there was initially no clear cause that the distro team should deal with it, as they are the ones that have the overview of the entire distro. As a KDE user, I don't know about Gnome issues. On the other hand, the distro teams mission is to have a working system. To otherwise would have the KDE users bugging KDE, Gnome users bugging Gnome etc., which will result in finger pointing. <snip>
very well in trying to detect where it went wrong and who to blame, but how to solve it? Or get around it while "others" solve it properly... can something be done with sudo, doing suid on NM? hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet wrote:
can something be done with sudo, doing suid on NM?
On my systems, I often set up a sudo directory, where I gain root privileges. I then symlink from that directory to what I want to run. I have done this for things like starting a VPN, which required root privilege. If the problem is changing files in a directory where users don't have write permission, then the solution could be as simple as creating a group for that director and giving group members write permission for that directory. Then it's a simple matter of making the user a member of that group. I have done that sort of thing on a server at work, where access to areas of the server are dependent on job classification (management, accounting, technicians etc.). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2011-11-20 at 12:32 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote: <snip>
There are one to two people at openSUSE who take care of KDE, you can do the maths how much time they can spend on the product and whether they should waste some of that time for typing bug reports or doing the communication with upstream. They package and patch, they pick the major issues relevant for KDE, i.e. kdepim and packagekit-zypp backend for apper in 12.1, and then their time is gone. In an ideal world they might do all communication with upstream but with only one to two people around it makes more sense to keep everything off them that a user can do as well and let them concentrate on stuff a user cannot do.
<snip> I remember that _a lot_ of people at SuSE used to be working at KDE, because of some German gouvernemental project, explicitly demanding KDE... At the time of the Novell deal, i remember that some left, but is it really true, that they all left? The closer you are to the fire, the biggest chance you can influence it to your (companies need). hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Søndag den 20. november 2011 15:57:49 skrev Hans Witvliet:
I remember that _a lot_ of people at SuSE used to be working at KDE, because of some German gouvernemental project, explicitly demanding KDE...
At the time of the Novell deal, i remember that some left, but is it really true, that they all left?
There's 1-2 SUSE employees working full-time on KDE packaging etc. There are still a lot of KDE developers working at SUSE in other functions. http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 20. November 2011, 16:16:44 schrieb Martin Schlander:
There's 1-2 SUSE employees working full-time on KDE packaging etc.
There are still a lot of KDE developers working at SUSE in other functions. http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team
Is that list up-to-date, e.g. Lubos? Most of them are hardly visible if at all, i.e. bug fixing, communicating on a mailinglist etc. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 20.11.2011 20:10, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 20. November 2011, 16:16:44 schrieb Martin Schlander:
There's 1-2 SUSE employees working full-time on KDE packaging etc.
There are still a lot of KDE developers working at SUSE in other functions. http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_team
Is that list up-to-date, e.g. Lubos? Most of them are hardly visible if at all, i.e. bug fixing, communicating on a mailinglist etc.
There are at least two people on that list that won't voluntarily touch KDE code with a ten foot pole and another one that will only touch it if it is older than KDE4.0 (e.g. KDE3). So no, that list is not up-to-date. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 21. November 2011, 11:14:11 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
There are at least two people on that list that won't voluntarily touch KDE code with a ten foot pole
What about skipping those ideological bits and sticking to something like: "there are at least two people on that list that do not work on KDE". Informative and it makes you appear less frustrated and more sovereign. A bit less frustration might also help you to repress the ranting and blaming (stuff you do not use anyway) reflex that leads to false allegations.
So no, that list is not up-to-date.
I thought so. I'll try to update it. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday, November 21, 2011 11:42:10 AM Sven Burmeister wrote:
So no, that list is not up-to-date.
I thought so. I'll try to update it. Thank you! Our wiki is a torrid mess. -- Roger Luedecke openSUSE Ambassador Ind. Repairs and Consulting **Looking for a C++ etc. mentor*** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister wrote:
There are one to two people at openSUSE who take care of KDE, you can do the maths how much time they can spend on the product and whether they should waste some of that time for typing bug reports or doing the communication with upstream. They package and patch, they pick the major issues relevant for KDE, i.e. kdepim and packagekit-zypp backend for apper in 12.1, and then their time is gone. In an ideal world they might do all communication with upstream but with only one to two people around it makes more sense to keep everything off them that a user can do as well and let them concentrate on stuff a user cannot do.
When I was was at IBM Canada, I was the sole person doing 3rd level support for the OS/2 desktop operating system. I also supported several applications, including some on Windows 95 & NT. I also worked with the build team, including doing integration testing, to make sure everything worked properly on all 3 platforms. As I mentioned earlier, I was also responsible for taking things "upstream" to the developers. How does this differ from the KDE team? One thing that was certain is that I owned a problem until resolution, unless it had to be transferred to someone else, because it was out of my scope (database issues, printing, etc.). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/20/2011 6:32 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 19. November 2011, 23:02:06 schrieb James Knott:
Sven Burmeister wrote:
Nope. You should work with the maintainers and not the packagers. It's impossible for those few KDE people at openSUSE to know all of KDE's code or fix everything you come up with. Thus it makes sense (effectiveness and efficiency-wise) to take upstream issues upstream and only bother openSUSE people with openSUSE specific issues.
There's already a bug report on openSUSE. Do those people not say we have a problem here and then go to the source?
For major issues, yes. But not for every little bug and wish. And in this case it has nothing to do with KDE anyway so it has to be taken to the NM devs. Which did happen.
If I were on the KDE team, I'd rather be hearing reports from the distros than all the users.
There are one to two people at openSUSE who take care of KDE, you can do the maths how much time they can spend on the product and whether they should waste some of that time for typing bug reports or doing the communication with upstream. They package and patch, they pick the major issues relevant for KDE, i.e. kdepim and packagekit-zypp backend for apper in 12.1, and then their time is gone. In an ideal world they might do all communication with upstream but with only one to two people around it makes more sense to keep everything off them that a user can do as well and let them concentrate on stuff a user cannot do.
Like I said, I'd have been fired from IBM, if I tried telling a user to go "upstream". What happens to people who buy the distro (I used to buy every version, until they changed the shipment method and made it very expensive in Canada) and pay for support? Will they be told to go upstream too?
Yes, because with that version only payed for the box, the manual, installation media and installation support. I bet at IBM people payed a bit more than just that.
This just yet another perfect example of what I've been saying about the change, (decline) in the the overall experience of a Suse user from a few years ago to today. I have been saying that it's the result of starting out with a highly polished, highly managed, non-diy distro, then decimating Suse's staff, then things are tolerable on inertia for a release or so, and by now it's really getting problematical because there is no longer the staff necessary to actually develop and test everything necessary to make a good distro while keeping up with software and hardware changes, and the distro is too managed to be well suited for DIY, and yet most user problem reports are answered with DIY answers and/or "file a bug report" without any expectation that filing a bug report will actually accomplish anything, it's just better to have them filed to amass data than not. It helps suse know where to spend it's few resources, it's more help to suse than to users. If this was a new distro, or if this was the way this distro always was, that would be one thing. You wouldn't have reasonable expectation of better. But this is not a new distro and the prior experience was much better and so there is utterly reasonable expectation of better. Like I keep saying, we have the worst of both worlds now. Why do I keep saying this? What do I want? I don't want or expect a perfect distro, especially on no staff and no money. (and the money/staff/sle/open issue is larger than I want to get into in this post) I mostly just want Suse staff and non-staff maintainers to stop telling users they are wrong for having problems! If you no longer have the staff to provide the previous level of user experience, then at least have the class to apologize for it! The OP was completely correct in his expression of the problem. If Suse can't even handle merely receiving that problem report let alone addressing it, that is an utter failure of Suse, not the user. Suse should be _apologizing_ not _criticizing_ pretty much by default these days. That would be the first step towards getting the "constructive" dialogue they claim to want. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, James Knott wrote:
to people who buy the distro (I used to buy every version, until they changed the shipment method and made it very expensive in Canada) and pay for support? Will they be told to go upstream too?
We, as in the openSUSE project (as well as SUSE, the company) do not
sell openSUSE, we are happy to give it away for free. :-)
There are some third parties who sell an openSUSE, or openSUSE-based,
box product with physical media and printed manuals. These may offer
support according to their respective policies.
Gerald
--
Dr. Gerald Pfeifer
participants (8)
-
Brian K. White -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Hans Witvliet -
James Knott -
Martin Schlander -
Roger Luedecke -
Stefan Seyfried -
Sven Burmeister