On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:05:01 +0100
Richard Brown
On 19 February 2018 at 18:37, Liam Proven
wrote: On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:29:19 +0100 Richard Brown
wrote: Hi Liam,
Your proposed approach would necessitate that we test each one of those spins comparably.
Would it?
Presumably there is some kind of testing that picking each desktop works, right?
So that means that something is ticking each box, checking it installs cleanly, checking it runs, then moving on to the next one.
That would be a rather dramatic increase in our required test coverage.
How does changing the source medium mean a dramatic difference?
Unless we seriously are considering leaving vendors like Open Source Press unable to produce DVD's and giving up on the idea of giving away DVDs at conferences, then we're not talking about changing the source medium, but adding another option.
More installation media options, mean more chances of one of those having problems (either due to build or developer error), which means more testing is needed.
I don't see that, but I don't know enough about how the product is built (yet). At least I see that others in the thread share my uncertainty, so that's a relief.
Your choice of terminology is confusing. openSUSE can't 'outsource' anything to it's community, openSUSE IS it's community. We're talking about what will the openSUSE community do in the openSUSE communities distributions. We don't have anyone else to give this problem to.
Um. I do not understand you, but I feel that you are lecturing me in a very pedantic way, rather than trying to teach me something here. I am quite new here. I have been a SUSE user for about 20 years, but not much since 2004 when I switched to Ubuntu -- mostly because SUSE Linux was so big, and included so much stuff I didn't need, whereas Ubuntu was small and lean and focussed and took about a quarter as much disk space. I missed YAST at first, and especially SAX, but everything else just worked and I copied xorg.conf from my SUSE install. Now I am back and I am enjoying the experience. But I don't know how the company and its products and community are structured, so please, by all means, tell me, rather than archly questioning assumptions I didn't make and asking me why I have not respected divisions that I do not even know exist.
Inasmuch as Gecko Linux exists at all, so has SUSE -- no?
No - Gecko Linux is a derivative of openSUSE, utilising our Projects free and open licensed software, to distribute our software with additional software in a way which we believe to be inconsistent with the licenses and patents involved. They have no involvement with the openSUSE project. They do nothing on our behalf. And asking them to do anything on our behalf would potentially be problematic for the openSUSE Project from a legal standpoint.
Again, this is assuming knowledge I do not have. I would need it to be clarified and explained for me if you want me to understand.
I think Ubuntu and Fedora can get away with it because they don't try to run their Projects in a way where the community shape it's very nature. Their corporate overlords can declare a default and all the rest have to deal with it.
I do not see that at all, no.
Well you seem to think that the openSUSE community can outsource itself unto itself, so I think it's safe to say that we both have a very different perspective on community dynamics.
No, not really. You know how it works. I don't. But you assume that I do and are criticising me for my lack of knowledge. That does not feel good. Just saying. I have been providing free support for Ubuntu since 2004, as a way of paying a little something back for a great OS I've been using for nothing for 14 years now. I have never worked for them, but I am a member of the community so I know how it works. I have worked for Red Hat for a short time and have a slightly better idea of how it works. I do not know how SUSE works. So, by all means, please do educate me, but can you try not to do it by saying "I think we have a different perspective" and "would potentially be problematic" and "we" versus "SUSE"? You and I are both SUSE employees communicating via our SUSE email addresses. I do not know what you mean. I do not know what you mean when you keep talking about "we" versus "SUSE".
Your above statements neglect the great work our awesome openSUSE KDE and openSUSE GNOME teams do working together.
No they do not. I am saying I do not like the software. I am not saying anything about the people who make it, from any company or none. I am not saying anything about their vendors, suppliers, employers, their personal preferences in UI design, or anything. I'm just saying I personally don't like the software and my own personal observations about it. And, *again*, I am not saying anything about any people, communities, employees or anything else. Mainly, I am asking questions here, and offering observations and suggestions, and that's all.
They may work on different software that suits different peoples sensibilities, but the importance is that when working together as part of _openSUSE_, our community contributors do an awesome job of bridging the gaps between themselves and their various upstreams. I concede that I, myself, in particular often don't do a good enough job talking about that, but I certainly can't let someone saying the opposite stand unchallenged.
I do not know what your beliefs, choices or preferences are and I am not challenging them.
Sure, people move between them, people change allegiances, but there is already a _huge_ amount of duplicated effort between them all.
Nothing SUSE does or doesn't do will change that.
Why are you talking about SUSE Linux GmbH/SUSE LLC suddenly?
Because we both work for them. Because they package this software and it goes out with their name and logo on it. If you are trying to teach me about the corporate structure, this is a rotten way of doing it!
But even if I did agree with that approach, the fact is that for openSUSE I would prefer not open a discussion about focusing on a single desktop environment first
AIUI, SLE only supports a single desktop: GNOME 3. There's no option for anything else, including KDE.
So SUSE has _already_ made that choice.
SUSE is not openSUSE.
It isn't?
Their choices are not openSUSE's choices.
They aren't?
openSUSE is an independent open source project
It is?
which SUSE contributes to as peers and partners - not controllers.
It does? You are assuming my knowledge here. I don't have it. *Please* instruct me rather than just telling me I'm wrong?
All indications are that no DE in openSUSE has a majority of our userbase (eg. https://twitter.com/sysrich/status/947169171632205826 )
Really? I'd say the answer to that poll is a pretty clear indication of the favoured desktop. There are just 2, all the others are a rounding error (by definition, <=10%). And of the 2, one has a 25% lead.
The fates of countries have swung on less, as you and I discussed in Brussels.
So yes, I'd call that _very_ clear, myself.
So you'd piss off the majority of volunteers and users to favour the most popular minority choice?
What? No!
I think we have very different mindsets when it comes to what makes a healthy community.
No. I don't even know what yours is, and you don't know mine, but you're leaping to conclusions about it.
One of openSUSE's strengths is we do not cater to just the needs of the largest groups in our community, but we strive to create an environment where anyone can help shape openSUSE into what they need.
Sorry, man, but this sounds like content-free marketing guff to me, I'm afraid. :-)
But no, no spins for us please..I don't like that model at all.
And that's your right and that's fine. It does work, though, and it does make the installation process simpler with fewer questions. I think it arguably could _simplify_ testing. Does that not merit examination?
It doesn't simplify testing, unless you throw away parts you decide you no longer want to test.
Splitting things into smaller chunks tends to make them simpler. It reduces the range of functionality. That should make it easier to test, no?
That seems counterproductive, especially when the issue at hand is a DE which no longer fits on our installation media, but is still 100% fully tested and fully supported by the openSUSE Project.
Again, I don't know what this means and I need further explanation, please. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org