On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:05:01 +0100
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
On 19 February 2018 at 18:37, Liam Proven
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:29:19 +0100
Richard Brown <RBrownCCB(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
Your proposed approach would necessitate that we test each one of
those spins comparably.
Presumably there is some kind of testing that picking each desktop
So that means that something is ticking each box, checking it
installs cleanly, checking it runs, then moving on to the next one.
That would be a rather dramatic increase in our
How does changing the source medium mean a dramatic difference?
Unless we seriously are considering leaving vendors like Open Source
Press unable to produce DVD's and giving up on the idea of giving away
DVDs at conferences, then we're not talking about changing the source
medium, but adding another option.
More installation media options, mean more chances of one of those
having problems (either due to build or developer error), which means
more testing is needed.
I don't see that, but I don't know enough about how the product is
built (yet). At least I see that others in the thread share my
uncertainty, so that's a relief.
Your choice of terminology is confusing. openSUSE
anything to it's community, openSUSE IS it's community.
We're talking about what will the openSUSE community do in the
openSUSE communities distributions. We don't have anyone else to give
this problem to.
Um. I do not understand you, but I feel that you are lecturing me in a
very pedantic way, rather than trying to teach me something here.
I am quite new here. I have been a SUSE user for about 20 years, but
not much since 2004 when I switched to Ubuntu -- mostly because SUSE
Linux was so big, and included so much stuff I didn't need, whereas
Ubuntu was small and lean and focussed and took about a quarter as much
I missed YAST at first, and especially SAX, but everything else just
worked and I copied xorg.conf from my SUSE install.
Now I am back and I am enjoying the experience.
But I don't know how the company and its products and community are
structured, so please, by all means, tell me, rather than archly
questioning assumptions I didn't make and asking me why I have not
respected divisions that I do not even know exist.
Gecko Linux exists at all, so has SUSE -- no?
No - Gecko Linux is a derivative of openSUSE, utilising our Projects
free and open licensed software, to distribute our software with
additional software in a way which we believe to be inconsistent with
the licenses and patents involved.
They have no involvement with the openSUSE project. They do nothing on
our behalf. And asking them to do anything on our behalf would
potentially be problematic for the openSUSE Project from a legal
Again, this is assuming knowledge I do not have. I would need it to be
clarified and explained for me if you want me to understand.
I think Ubuntu and Fedora can get away with it because
try to run their Projects in a way where the community shape it's
very nature. Their corporate overlords can declare a default and
all the rest have to deal with it.
I do not see that at all, no.
Well you seem to think that the openSUSE community can outsource
itself unto itself, so I think it's safe to say that we both have a
very different perspective on community dynamics.
No, not really. You know how it works. I don't. But you assume that I
do and are criticising me for my lack of knowledge. That does not
feel good. Just saying.
I have been providing free support for Ubuntu since 2004, as a way of
paying a little something back for a great OS I've been using for
nothing for 14 years now. I have never worked for them, but I am a
member of the community so I know how it works.
I have worked for Red Hat for a short time and have a slightly better
idea of how it works.
I do not know how SUSE works.
So, by all means, please do educate me, but can you try not to do it by
saying "I think we have a different perspective" and "would
potentially be problematic" and "we" versus "SUSE"?
You and I are both SUSE employees communicating via our SUSE email
addresses. I do not know what you mean. I do not know what you mean
when you keep talking about "we" versus "SUSE".
Your above statements neglect the great work our
awesome openSUSE KDE
and openSUSE GNOME teams do working together.
No they do not.
I am saying I do not like the software. I am not saying anything about
the people who make it, from any company or none. I am not saying
anything about their vendors, suppliers, employers, their personal
preferences in UI design, or anything.
I'm just saying I personally don't like the software and my own
personal observations about it.
And, *again*, I am not saying anything about any people, communities,
employees or anything else.
Mainly, I am asking questions here, and offering observations and
suggestions, and that's all.
They may work on different software that suits
sensibilities, but the importance is that when working together as
part of _openSUSE_, our community contributors do an awesome job of
bridging the gaps between themselves and their various upstreams.
I concede that I, myself, in particular often don't do a good enough
job talking about that, but I certainly can't let someone saying the
opposite stand unchallenged.
I do not know what your beliefs, choices or preferences are and I am
not challenging them.
move between them, people change allegiances, but
there is already a _huge_ amount of duplicated effort between them
Nothing SUSE does or doesn't do will change that.
Why are you talking about SUSE Linux GmbH/SUSE LLC suddenly?
Because we both work for them. Because they package this software and
it goes out with their name and logo on it.
If you are trying to teach me about the corporate structure, this is a
rotten way of doing it!
But even if I did agree with that approach, the fact
is that for
openSUSE I would prefer not open a discussion about focusing on a
single desktop environment first
AIUI, SLE only supports a single desktop: GNOME 3. There's no option
for anything else, including KDE.
So SUSE has _already_ made that choice.
SUSE is not openSUSE.
Their choices are not openSUSE's choices.
openSUSE is an independent open source project
which SUSE contributes
to as peers and partners - not controllers.
You are assuming my knowledge here. I don't have it. *Please* instruct
me rather than just telling me I'm wrong?
All indications are that no DE in openSUSE has a
majority of our
Really? I'd say the answer to that poll is a pretty clear
indication of the favoured desktop. There are just 2, all the
others are a rounding error (by definition, <=10%). And of the 2,
one has a 25% lead.
The fates of countries have swung on less, as you and I discussed in
So yes, I'd call that _very_ clear, myself.
So you'd piss off the majority of volunteers and users to favour the
most popular minority choice?
I think we have very different mindsets when it comes
to what makes a
No. I don't even know what yours is, and you don't know mine, but
you're leaping to conclusions about it.
One of openSUSE's strengths is we do not cater to
just the needs of
the largest groups in our community, but we strive to create an
environment where anyone can help shape openSUSE into what they need.
Sorry, man, but this sounds like content-free marketing guff to me, I'm
But no, no spins for us please..I don't like that
model at all.
And that's your right and that's fine. It does work, though, and it
does make the installation process simpler with fewer questions. I
think it arguably could _simplify_ testing. Does that not merit
It doesn't simplify testing, unless you throw away parts you decide
you no longer want to test.
Splitting things into smaller chunks tends to make them simpler. It
reduces the range of functionality. That should make it easier to test,
That seems counterproductive, especially when the
issue at hand is a
DE which no longer fits on our installation media, but is still 100%
fully tested and fully supported by the openSUSE Project.
Again, I don't know what this means and I need further explanation,
Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o.
Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia
Email: lproven(a)suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084
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