On 31/12/12 20:34, Marcus Moeller wrote:

Hi all.

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What do you think? every 1 week, every 2 weeks? monthly? Etc.

Taking current state of affairs, weekly is needed: * to bring thoughts to the same page, * to keep light pressure on fixing tasks for pending 12.3, * to propose new ideas for branding handling in future releases [1], * to establish need for group (team) lead [2].

One point that we can't do much before January 7th is that openSUSE-branding doesn't build. Fix by yecril71pl is ready as SR#146527: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/146527

[1] Apropos branding in the future there could be some improvements.

Urgent is to have public article in the wiki about packaging artwork, including branding.

But also, for instance, Factory should have own set of packages with clearly Factory branding. That will help in a few ways: * Mark clearly factory development phase. * Help to find missing branding. There is a lot of files to keep an eye on them.

Further that can be expanded to have each phase marked straight on the screen.

[2] Other need *one* *contact*, not "some contact", which usually translates in no contact. This also doesn't preclude it is a boss, just a guy that knows what is going on.

I cannot agree here. As mentioned before this is not a good way to go. Everyone should be aware of what is going on. This awareness could be established through transparent mailinglist communication.

Besides that, I personally prefer mailinglists over IRC meetings, especially in such a small team. I also must admit that I won't have the time to take part in regular meetings, the next year.

Greets Marcus

I would like to chime in here, i think ML 'meetings' are too slow and cumbersome, they do not give realtime discussions that is desperately needed. so please tell me who is doing what, what needs to be done, who can and will do them and how far along are they, you just can't randomly ask 'how you doing' as you will never get a full picture this way. Also if done correctly (minutes taken and shared with the ML and news.opensuse.org) everyone will know one way or another. Another benefit of these meetings is its a forum not one on one, meaning more is known and everyone in that meeting and the ML with the minutes are on the same page, you can't get everyone at once even mailing lists can't because who wants to read back logs constantly? its slow lazy and cumbersome and pushing many away as it is seen as information is deliberately redirected and hidden making the artists look like dicks. These meetings truly work and only really last an hour or so, surly you can spare and hour a week, if you are not convinced on how these work, look at the examples andi posted or sit in on one of the blender developer meetings (#blendercoders on freenode, Sunday, 1600 CET (1500 UTC)) these have been run ever since blender was opensourced and would be lost without them. (incase you missed andi's mail) Here is, for example, how the blender guys do their meetings and emailing. http://lists.blender.org/pipermail/bf-committers/2012-December/038667.html http://www.blendernation.com/2012/12/24/developer-meeting-notes-december-23-... Thank you Andy (anditosan) I would also like to add that if these meetings work and are done properly, (minutes taken and shared with the ML and news.opensuse.org) it could spread to other areas like kde or project as a whole which would help a big deal in opensuse becoming a great unified OS instead of the disconnected 'mess' it is now (including artowork) so please atleast try it and make some effort to keep it going -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Am 31.12.2012 13:14, schrieb Rajko:

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 22:33:07 +1100 Michael Fox wrote:

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I would like to chime in here, i think ML 'meetings' are too slow and cumbersome,

Email is not for meetings.

Problem with Forums is that interface is loaded with usual decorations that lower amount of text that can be presented at once.

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they do not give realtime discussions that is desperately needed.

That is true, but timezones are real problem.

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I would also like to add that if these meetings work and are done properly, (minutes taken and shared with the ML and news.opensuse.org) it could spread to other areas ...

That is similar approach that CBoltz used once. He posted to the mail list relevant part of IRC discussion log that was not scheduled meeting, so not many was present, but gave few ideas that should not be forgotten.

In other words we can setup meeting, or meetings on weekend, and then publish logs and minutes on a mail list, allowing for more discussion.

Publishing logs is always a good idea. I am also not totally against IRC meetings, they just got the disadvantage that they are sheduled on a fixed date, so one has to make sure he/she steps in then. Besides that we have to make sure that the topics are outlined in advance and we that got an open topic section at the end. Raise hand/voice rules should be stated before every meeting. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:21:28 +1100 Michael Fox wrote:

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On 31/12/12 23:50, Marcus Moeller wrote: Raise hand/voice rules should be stated before every meeting.

Yes, if that is real meeting in the company, but ... it is not. Insisting on formalities is pointless. More rules will not bring more people in, just the opposite. I learned that hard way with wiki. Too many rules keep people out. No one is willing to spend whole day reading rules and figuring out which one applies to his article. That is specially true for people that have something to say as they are usually busy and have no time for formalities.

... personally i like the rule of being polite and let others have their say

I would prefer to have that as the only rule, that is what we have in informal meeting on IRC every day. The only function chair should have is to take care of summary and even that right on the meeting. Type in channel: Summary: Everyone agrees to be polite and post to mail list discussions that are done in a small circle of present participants, but affect interest of many more people that should give opinion. Let people comment, improve, when done put in the wiki. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 31 Dec 2012 16:55:58 +0100 Marcus Moeller wrote:

Take a look at:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board_public_IRC_meetings

Two things: Fedora is not the most accessible project for the new contributors, due to a lot of established rules, and artwork group is not a Board. Artwork and specially photography that can be used to decorate openSUSE infrastructure and releases, should be the low hanging fruit for new contributors. Let we keep it that way. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-12-31 at 18:22 +0100, Marcus Moeller wrote:

What it wrong in typing ? for a question, ! to gain voice and +1 on votes?

Everyone should be able to do this, don't you agree?

Greets Marcus

Don't we already do that here in openSUSE meetings?? Here's the thing, meetings should run however efficiently it is seen based on the culture. As I once said in another organization: Rules must follow culture, not culture follow rules. In other words, rules may work well in one organization, but not another. Anyway, the problem of lack of transparency is not in whether there are meetings or not, but in how things are handled. If there is a meeting, go for it. Meetings have benefits in quick discussion and consensus-building. Post the logs of the meetings when done so everyone can see it, but also post a summarization. And I DO mean summarization, not interpretation, which seems to be the habit after artwork meetings around here. For major decisions that need wide consensus, post the question to the mailing list. Don't decide everything in the meetings where those who are not able to go to meetings but are significant contributors become left out. That's a sure-fire way to fall back to the trap of elitism and small-group we're seeing lately. Make community decision-making accessible by using more than just the one medium. (AKA: meetings + ML) Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Am 01.01.2013 06:30, schrieb DuBois, Scott L.:

Meetings are always a good idea in my opinion. As others have stated though, the time can be a hassle since many of us live in varied time zones across the globe.

I know I have looked back on old minutes a day or two after a meeting and wanted to ask questions about a topic only to feel like I'm a few days late on something that was already decided. I don't know what the etiquette is for asking questions after a meeting is held, but an outline would be nice as to how to go about it.

I've always thought it would be nice to have somewhere or someone I can turn to for a project if I have the time to do something to contribute. If I have some free time on a Saturday night or Sunday afternoon I could turn to a wiki page or send an email to someone to say "Hey, what needs to get done? I have some free time and feel like being creative." However from what I can tell this doesn't seem to be the case or I am not aware of it. Some people seem to pick up projects from I don't know where, maybe IRC which lately I haven't had time for but that will be changing soon.

I like the idea of working with teams personally and if having a meeting each week or two weeks will help then I'm game and will do my best to attend or at least provide feedback and support.

You mentioned a few reasons why I am not that big fan of IRC meetings at all. As Bryen lined out earlier, they might be good for on-demand topics, like: 'There is version 12.3 knocking on the door, and a few tasks left, lets talk about who will do what.' This team is a bit special, as when it's about work, noone is there. (you have read Richards comments on that) Ppl tend to talk a lot in advance and afterwards, but noone likes to do the work. Another special thing is noone remembers on what we have decided afterwards, even if it's in the logs. In the past (till now), there are some guys left like Ivan, tigerfoot, Richard, Victor and me who did most of the work, even if we asked for help several times (see the ML archive on that). As a result we have been called elitists. Thanks, but we would have prefered if PUTYOURNAMEINHERE would have helped to do the ugly work instead. And don't expect that beginners contributions will be treated the same as from established ones. You, DuBois are a good example to show how to do it right. You are interested and asking for help. Another way to go is to continuously contribute and improve, like Victor does. Anyhow, this issue has been addressed to the Board, with no real consequences. So my friendly (and not elitist) advice for anyone who is not already doing the real stuff: ask, learn, contribute, improve. If one is asking for help in a friendly manner and not even pissing the established members off for all the work we have done, we can work it out together in the future. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org

Hi My little contribution. Is hard for me to participate here because the language, but I read all the mails in the list... ;) I think that now that the date of new release is getting closely we can make some meetings via IRC channel for check some things about artwork and invite to other people of the project to join to meeting. There we can ask and some things, etc... and to share or improve some ideas. Maybe during the Hackathon would be good to have some meeting. (finally I will fly to Nue that week, be patience with me... ;) ) My 2cts Bye PS: Happy new Year!! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org