Carlos E. R. a écrit :

Maintaining (backporting) apps for such a long time is costly, and that is why SLES is expensive, and not so feature rich.

there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps. Could even pay until $60 for one time (buy time) such support for other apps, there is no need of long time support jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

jdd escribió:

there could be a medium point. I would be ready to pay a small fee ($10/year?) for security patches for kernel, apache, postfix and some very limited server apps.

I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 13/01/2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!

Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p

Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 13. Januar 2008 12:11:24 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

The Sunday 2008-01-13 at 01:21 -0000, Benji Weber wrote:

...

On 13/01/2008, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

...

I assume you are joking right ? so you really think a fee of $10 will be enough ? with $10 you dont even pay one man's hour !!

Not if you sell a few thousand items :-p

Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer.

Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years! I don't understand.

At least for one developer, that's true - but an LTS version, needs more than one developer, it needs a whole developer team and even then it has do sell 10'000 units, which frankly I doubt it will.. :/ Greetings Michael

Carlos E. R. schreef::

The Sunday 2008-01-13 at 12:51 +0100, Michael Skiba wrote:

...

...

Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years! I don't understand.

...

At least for one developer, that's true - but an LTS version, needs more than one developer, it needs a whole developer team and even then it has do sell 10'000 units, which frankly I doubt it will.. :/

Yes, that's true.

However, I would be enchanted if some old versions of the distro were still maintained somewhat - the 7.3 one, for instance: it is very good on old hardware.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Hi folks, What a discussion !!! I find the strongest point of OpenSuse that you are on the bleeding edge of the software development. I can always experience the newest software paths leading to future. The other side of this medal is that there are much changes and parts that are thrown away. This automaticly gives a short support time (there happens too much in a few years). If you want a long support time then you have to choose for a distribution what thakes and keeps only the best, that means a changemanagementfilosofie based on the long term ( a bit conservative). And thats another choice than OpenSuse. Hans. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-01-15 at 13:34 +0100, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

On Sunday 13 January 2008 14:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

However, I would be enchanted if some old versions of the distro were still maintained somewhat - the 7.3 one, for instance: it is very good on old hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suse_linux

7.3: 13 October 2001

I know.

Did you ever try to maintain any piece of software this old, with so many newer versions of any of its components having been released in the meantime?

I didn't say that it would be easy (nor did I say fully maintained). I said that I would be enchanted. You take things too seriously. :-P (curiously, new "embedded" machines I bought use kernel 2.4, not 2.6) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHjLuZtTMYHG2NR9URApYVAJ4hmgzCvCi528tV6uLVwro42sD2CACglRoO S7DtCwuLjNfbsp0GX+DvNaw= =52o0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: The Tuesday 2008-01-15 at 13:30 +0100, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

On Sunday 13 January 2008 12:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Even at 10,000 units that's barely enough for one developer.

Why? That's $10^5... that's... that's a high salary for 33 years!

Huh?

With the current Euro / US$ exchange rate (€1 = $1.48) , $100k are about €67.6k.

Depending on exactly what kind of cost you include in the calculation (office space, general organizational management), this will pay for roughly one man-year in Germany.

33 years? What kind of developer would you like to hire for that kind of money?

With a salary of 30000€ (I used € for my calculations, or $=€) per year, which is a high salary here for a supervisor in my country, that makes 10^4 * 10€ / 30000€ = Oops, 3.3 I forgot that in the calculator parlance 10^5 is 1E5, not 10E5, sorry. I must have been half sleep at the moment O:-) In $, the salary would be $20E3, making for 4.9 years. Or, if I assume a salary of $30E3, that would be 3.3 years. If you say that's too low a salary, mine as developer was 8000€/y not too long ago. Even now, many people here don't reach 1000€/month. And one developer has no organization at all, and works at home or in a corner :-p - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHjL7stTMYHG2NR9URAjsDAKCYZ9H8wY6azCANr57d5+AY1N91TwCgiCKz 1MigTU3eEVgR9Br6QxpbdTk= =8ioG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:10:51 +0100 (CET), Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

With a salary of 30000€ (I used € for my calculations, or $=€) per year, which is a high salary here for a supervisor in my country, that makes

€30000/year would barely get you a junior programmer here (if at all). If he's got a CS degree, you'd have to raise that significantly. And $ is € is ~ $ 1.5

Philipp

Hell, If I could do programming at home in my jammies for $30,000 a year I would jump on it. I worked my butt off for a lot less than that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2008-01-17 at 14:27 +0800, Jonathan Ervine wrote:

On Thursday 17 January 2008 00:36:17 Billie Walsh wrote:

...

Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

...

€30000/year would barely get you a junior programmer here (if at all). If he's got a CS degree, you'd have to raise that significantly. And $ is € is ~ $ 1.5

Hell, If I could do programming at home in my jammies for $30,000 a year I would jump on it. I worked my butt off for a lot less than that.

Meh - supply and demand. Market economics. Call it what you will. The key phrase you use is, 'If I could'. Philipp is correct. You'd struggle to get a junior programmer for $20K pa and you wouldn't hold onto them on that wage for long. I suppose the logical conclusion would be to outsource to India or another outsourcing location.

Actually, Novell did that. Last year they fired something like 200 people in the USA and I guess they hired some in the "far east".

I think that just about sums up (pun intended) the futility of an openSUSE LTS edition.

Dunno... I just hope they don't outsource it, I like the chaps that are at SuSE right now. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHjy4YtTMYHG2NR9URAhCtAKCBpE9nFOj8pAzRHEdd1AILb0XAqACfa9Lz qOwQyINnWTAeEVlQ0amPMBg= =T/6G -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hi Johannes, Johannes Nohl wrote:

The discussion seemed to be ended but the maintance release (!) of a LTS'ed Linux (http://www.ubuntu.com/news/lts-6.06.2) reminds me of this thread. I read that many responses to this release that I think the number of users must be extremly high. Most pointed out that they are not interested in cutting edge software but in stability. Don't you think a long time support release of opensuse will bring (more) people (back) to this great distribution?!

Johannes

I'm afraid Novell's counting on SLES and SLED for that matter. Though working for a company dealing with the Enterprise stuff I realy couldn't agree more with you! Nice Weekend to all, Ortwin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 steve schrieb: | That would be the equivalent of asking Red hat to make Fedora LTS, To late for that. There is already a stable re-branded RHEL called Centos. I don't think that Red Hat is that lucky about it, even if they don't admit it. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnTvYh8q3OtgoGAwRAplZAJ40N9Qo1ZSyoPUHxDL3SM18CwkKNwCggVLf 57p0wJXDcxSu+Hm5NKy3GSI= =2Dwl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 steve schrieb: | I know, anyway we look at it, we are the winners. I just dont see | novell changing their business model by supporting a community distro | when they already are doing it with sled. I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnUJph8q3OtgoGAwRAtVKAJ91cqIs51eEEioUZ39OxNaJ9rYi6gCfa5Q4 lpf4MUtEXZ52C7rIfgfewOI= =sHap -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Johannes Nohl wrote:

...

I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;)

Good point. Finnally you could ask yourself how long there will be a community version of suse at all. Whether they don't listen to their users demands or there won't be users because they went away to another distro.

When you're not paying a single Eur for the software, your "demands" are not all that interesting to a company which has to make a payroll every week. Get this through your head... opensuse is *NOT* a charity project for Johannes Nohl and his Linux buddies -- it's a test-bed for developing SLED and SLES distributions, which happens to serve a PR purpose in a loss-leader sort of way. And no, I have *no* association with SuSE, other than as a user (and before they discontinued retail distribution, a customer).

I ask again: If I'm forced to replace opensuse on some projects to a distribution with a longer life cycle why should I keep opensuse on my desktop?

Do what you have to do. But remember, nobody is going to just give away long life cycle support, while also maintaining a hi release rate -- maintaining 5 to 10 releases simultaneously is *not* a trivial task -- it requires a significant number of man-hours.

I'm on the move, probably. I'll see what will happen in april 2008...

You get high quality stuff for free, and then complain, because the life-cycle is "only" 18 months. Do you realize how much of a complete ingrate you make yourself appear to be? Why don't you lobby for a return of OpenSuse Professional, which was not nearly as expensive as SLED OR SLES, but sales of such could finance significant longer-term support. If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very convenient software distribution which has a value in many thousands of euros. The horse is dead; no matter how many times you kick it, it isn't going to get up and run a race.

Johannes

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Doug McGarrett [02-02-08 20:05]: ...

Why must we bow down to Microsoft?

Please site *specific* examples that excite you to this statement?

It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive.

and this. If you cannot, you are only spreading fud and acting in the interests of m$ as a shill!

If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.

Don't let the door....... Now.. I/we do not *want* you to leave, but you are welcome to do as you wish. BUT your statements, threats and innuendos are false, baseless and without thought from a sane reasonable person. Do better or backup your threats. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008, Doug McGarrett wrote:-

On Sunday 27 January 2008 12:58, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

You get high quality stuff for free, and then complain, because the life-cycle is "only" 18 months.

ITYM 24 months, plus maybe a month or two extra. <Snip>

Why must we bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive.

Now there's some FUD if ever I saw it.

If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro,

And that makes a difference how? I have files I created, and still use on older SuSE[0] versions, as well as using them on later releases.

I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.

There's nothing wrong with that. I occasionally try out Debian and Fedora, and even more rarely Mandriva and Kubuntu. So may you find your foray into trying other distros a fruitful experience, and just like SUSE appears to have always said, have a lot of fun. [0] And yes, SuSE is the correct capitalization. The versions are 9.1 and 9.0, both before the rename to SUSE and, long before openSUSE. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Doug McGarrett writes:

...

[...] I disagree with your rant. I would like to see the return of SuSE Pro, and I don't mind paying $60 or so for it, but I do mind paying $200 or so for SLES or SLED (I don't understand the difference) and I want the manuals.

SUSE Pro is still available, it's called openSUSE now and available e.g. from shop.novell.com

...

You admit that SuSE Pro paid for itself, it came with the manuals, and you could buy it at a decent bookstore. And it came with some non-open-source things that were useful. What was wrong with that system? Why must we

And today all of that is available from day 1 - unless previously - to download from the internet (ok, you cannot download printed books, just pdfs).

...

bow down to Microsoft? It seems that they now own SuSE, and are determined to make it less and less attractive. If I didn't have a whole batch of stored files on this stable, older SuSE distro, I would try something else in a minute. And I may, anyway.

There's no significant between SUSE Pro and e.g. openSUSE 10.3,

Except that SusePro generated revenue for "long term support" of that product; in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and generates ZERO revenue for Novell.

Andreas

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Aaron Kulkis escribió:

...

Except that SusePro generated revenue for "long term support" of that product;

Revenue that was not enough to keep the ball rolling.

in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and

...

generates ZERO revenue for Novell.

It does generate it, but indirectly.

That's sophistry. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

On 2008-02-06T12:19:05, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

Revenue that was not enough to keep the ball rolling. in contrast, openSUSE is a loss-leader, and

...

generates ZERO revenue for Novell. It does generate it, but indirectly. That's sophistry.

No, it is not. Novell is well aware of the importance of openSUSE to our revenue stream, even if it cannot be directly measured.

If it was a true loss-leader, we wouldn't be doing it. I hope, as a share holder ;-)

The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products. For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF. To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philip Dowie wrote:

...

...

If it was a true loss-leader, we wouldn't be doing it. I hope, as a share holder ;-) The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products.

For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF.

To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly.

Except that in the case of the grocery store, it works, because there are multiple possible other items you could buy, and you have to physically pass them in order to pay for your chicken or mince.

I can't see how that applies to copies of openSUSE - not only do you not have to pass other items (if you do, its in someone else's store, not Novell's, so irrelevant), but there isn't really much else you could buy - most people have only 1 or 2 PCs, so hardly need a copy of SLED or SLES with their purchase, and all the small shops that will buy openSUSE won't be buying SLES or SLED either.

So you're saying that opensuse is not used to generate sales of SLES or SLED in the long run? If that's the case, then how does that fit with the statement that opensuse is an IMPORTANT PART of SuSE's revenue structure? You're missing the forest for the trees. The idea is to get the IT departments of businesses to try openSUSE before committing to the steeper price of SLED or SLES. -- ARK -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

The Magic Nose Goblin wrote: The purpose of a "loss-leader" is to INCREASE SALES of other higher-priced (and more profitable) products.

For example, grocery stores (at least in the U.S.) typically run sales on chicken and/or ground beef, selling below their cost because once a customer is in the store, they typically buy MORE STUFF.

To argue that opensuse isn't a loss-leader and at the same time, argue that it's an important component to the revenue stream is just plain silly.

Actually, based on your definition of a "loss-leader" in the first paragraph, the silly argument would be that opensuse IS a loss-leader and at the same time, that it's an important component to the revenue stream. A loss-leader's purpose is to increase the sales of the revenue generating components, so it can't be both. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, February 4, 2008 1:35 pm, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

Just my idea, and I hope someone would agree.

motion seconded -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Russ Fineman pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Monday 04 February 2008 01:35:31 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote: <snip>

...

Just my idea, and I hope someone would agree. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com </snip>

I agree I miss the good boxed set. I bought the 10.3 box set but it appears worthless because of the bug with SATA drive and SIS chip sets. I cannot install it. The bug report says its resolved but no link to the fix or how to use it with the 10.3 boxed set. I did install 10.4 Alpha from a DVD I made from the iso but thats not as good as the boxed set. Long download time for DVD ISO on fibre network.

Now that you have the 11.0 alpha 1 (not 10.4) you can download just the alpha 2 delta iso and use applydeltaiso to create the alpha 2 DVD. Much quicker download. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 04 February 2008 04:35:31 pm Kevin Dupuy wrote: ...........<snip a whole bunch>...........

What I would like to see is a return to the good boxed sets. Here's what I would like to see: a good design for the boxed edition, I like the lizard and all but I've got four boxes that all look exactly alike, with a giant lizard on a white background. I would be hoping for something closer to the look of 9.x or even 8.x boxed editions. I know Novell would probable want to use their own designers, but maybe they could open up to the community for some ideas. Then I'd like to see the openSUSE 11.0 system, it can be in a jeweled case with 2 DVDs like 10.3, but on the system, perhaps openSUSE could make a deal with the guys at Fluendo and include some legal codecs in the system, and DVD playback? That way, there is value added for the consumer, since they would be getting good extra software. Then a strong Start-Up guide, with info on installing, using the system, including incorporating the KDE and GNOME user guides into the book. And then some sort of "shameless plug" openSUSE branded stuff. Perhaps a window decal or a system badge? Just something cheap thrown into the box to give the user a feeling of openSUSE's brand.

And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them. In my case I was running some real old version of Red Hat, getting frustrated trying it out but while I was still usinng Windows 95. I walked into a Comp USA and saw SuSE 6. something or 7.0 maybe?, on the shelf. Bought it. Read all of the nice manuals, blew Red Hat away, installed it and never looked back. The manuals sat right there on the desktop next to the monitor until I found this list. Bought every boxed set afterwards up to 10.2 when there was no advantage to buying the boxed set and downloaded 10.2 and 10.3 to install them. But now I know what I am doing ??? There is no way a Joe Average brand new user can download and install SuSE without help from somebody already using it. I think of myself in those days. Nobody to help me with absolutely no technical computer training whatsoever. There are a lot of people out there like that. I venture to say there are very few people like me on this list.You all come from computer backgrounds. To those potential users, like I was, Windows kinda-sort-of works and they are afraid to try it. A lot of trouble and commitment for them to do it. I was lucky, I had the boxed set to start me out. The boxed set needs to be brought back for those potential new users. Makes it a lot easier for them. Hmmmm....Maybe SLED in a box? Unless Novell really doesn't want them. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Andreas, Since you are following the discussion, I'll add my 2 cents. On Tue February 5 2008 00:10:43 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

And how about all of the potential new users out there.  They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.

What about cover mounts for magazines?  Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?

I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer. A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there. As much as I miss holding the thick administration manual in my hands, I must say that the current package is a good compromise. But there could be an item in the box cover pointing to the "complete administration manual as PDF" and it could be available at the top level, readable from Windows before the installation. Finally, the stickers. Ah, how I miss the stickers! I would prefer a strip of cheap, small round ones, instead of just one fancy sticker. I removed the Windows sticker from my Thinkpad, but I have nothing to place on its stead. And my computers at the university don't advertise themselves as being different anymore. -- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:

...

...

What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.

It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche.

For other countries, I have no clue if and how we ever distributed DVDs that way.

CU

If you distribute it through magazines why not put it in the windows magazines? A live DVD that has the option to be installed? -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 15:14 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Ken Schneider writes:

...

Stefan Hundhammer pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

On Tuesday 05 February 2008 13:57, Carlos F. Lange wrote:

...

...

What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility? I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer.

It's not just Linux magazines. Here in Germany, c't magazine repeatedly had openSUSE DVDs on the cover (and of course a number of articles about it inside, too). This is one of the largest and also most well-respected computer magazines there is on the German market. This for sure does have large visibility in the entire IT market, not just the Linux niche.

Agreed, we do have more installation from just the c't magazine cover mount than worldwide box sales for openSUSE 10.3.

I'm not sure 10.3 is a great example, since I'd argue that openSUSE 10.3 wasn't distributed well, it was only available online at shop.Novell.com. I'd also like to, at the very least, see openSUSE 11.0 become available for boxed editions at the same time as the release for public download, so we can get the boxed edition at the same time as the release time, instead of, what Andreas will probably remember, as waiting one month after the release of the product for free download for buyers to receive the boxed edition. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stickers! Yeah. I need more of those. I have some old from Mandrake times, t-shirt, stickers for tower and mouse pad (sticky one, that you glue down on your desk). I still use it even after 5 years, so yeah, I'm totally into stickers and small stuff. -- Best regards, Nick Zeljkovic -----Original Message----- From: Carlos F. Lange [mailto:carlos.lange@ualberta.ca] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:58 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: openSUSE Boxed Editions Andreas, Since you are following the discussion, I'll add my 2 cents. On Tue February 5 2008 00:10:43 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.

What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?

I would say no. Linux magazines have a very low visibility. I have to look hard for them behind the rows and rows of Win and Mac magazines (and I always pull some of them to the front :). But the common user only buys magazines _after_ he/she starts using a system and, even then, such a user may feel overwhelmed by all the overload of Linux programs the magazines tend to offer. A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there. As much as I miss holding the thick administration manual in my hands, I must say that the current package is a good compromise. But there could be an item in the box cover pointing to the "complete administration manual as PDF" and it could be available at the top level, readable from Windows before the installation. Finally, the stickers. Ah, how I miss the stickers! I would prefer a strip of cheap, small round ones, instead of just one fancy sticker. I removed the Windows sticker from my Thinkpad, but I have nothing to place on its stead. And my computers at the university don't advertise themselves as being different anymore. -- Carlos FL "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that." - G. H. Hardy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 14:21 +0100, Clayton wrote:

...

A non-Linux user will browse the shelves of Staples, Best Buy and Future Shop looking for programs to improve their user experience and the openSUSE box would certainly stand out there.

openSUSE is on the shelves at MediaMarkt (a rough equivalent to Future Shop in Canada) here in Germany and in the Netherlands. :-)

C.

yeah, I think I remember reading somewhere (a SUSE dev's blog I think) that they were on the shelves in Germany. That's good at least. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail Hope for America: Ron Paul for President. www.RonPaul2008.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.

It already comes with a DVD containing Suse. Cheers, Dave -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 05 February 2008 18:03, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD.  They do publish a SUSE Bible.

It already comes with a DVD containing Suse.

Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date

Right. That's the biggest problem with that approach. Books seem to have a much longer shelf life than software. You can still easily get a Linux book with a 9.1 CD / DVD these days. And even though that book's sections about installation might be outdated, the rest might not, so you can't really blame the book store or the publisher that much. CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis a écrit :

so that the primary product is the "current software," not the book.

no. The shelf will never be up to date and if not sold the vendor can't return a software (he can return a book) in fact the dvd if of little importance, the book is the main thing. And I just gave the 10.1 manual (last in french), laser printer and the 9.1 (paperbound) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael Loeffler wrote:

On Thursday 07 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

On Tuesday 05 February 2008 18:03, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

...

Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible. It already comes with a DVD containing Suse. Unfortunately, every SuSE Linux Bible or Redhat Linux Bible I've ever seen on store shelves has a CD or DVD of a version which is horridly out of date Right. That's the biggest problem with that approach. Books seem to have a much longer shelf life than software. You can still easily get a Linux book with a 9.1 CD / DVD these days. And even though that book's sections about installation might be outdated, the rest might not, so you can't really blame the book store or the publisher that much. And if you wanted to show someone Linux...would you even

Stefan Hundhammer wrote: think of showing him 9.1 now, in 2008?

THAT's the big problem with the book-store method.

It would be MUCH better to shrink-wrap the book with the CD/DVD packet OUTSIDE, in front of the front-cover of the book, with the SuSE Version number plainly visable, so that the primary product is the "current software," not the book. But this still won't change the shelf life cycle. After 18 months this software with an additional book is pretty outdated as well. M

But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE? Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

On Monday 11 February 2008 15:53, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?

Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.

Actually, here in Germany, this used to be pretty common, in particular for everything related to Linux. IIRC we made a large proportion of our box sales with that book store channel. This might have to do with sciense book stores in university cities having some tradition in selling books about Unix and X11.

That's great for the limited academic community, in which a "college book store" is more like a small department store, selling calculators, items for dorm rooms, and sweatshirts, jackets, bumper stickers, coffee cups, and anything else that has a college logo on it. Away from a college campus, however, book stores sell books and magazines, and optionally, music. While getting college students IS important, you have a LOT of people who are not in college, but who are also good prospects for

But times have changed, and most people buy software in electronics megastores where the salespeople rarely know anything about those colorful boxes they sell (unless it's the latest hottest game, of course, because they are already almost finished with it).

Exactly. And they carry products which are meant to be sold at "computer stores," not "book stores". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:53 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>

But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?

Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.

Well, because all of the computer shops only sell M$ stuff. And apple-software is only to be found in their dedicated apple-stores. Where else to look? At the grocery? the chemist? DIYS-shop? Hm, last one might be a good place actually ;-))) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 13 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Mon, 2008-02-11 at 09:53 -0500, Aaron Kulkis wrote: <snip>

...

But who goes to the bookstore looking for SOFTWARE?

Nobody has given a satisfactory answer to that question.

Well, because all of the computer shops only sell M$ stuff.

I've yet to see a computer shop which sells software not have a section for Mac software; generally smaller, but nonetheless its there.

I've yet to see a (non-Mac-only-dedicated) computer shop that would sell Mac software.

...

And apple-software is only to be found in their dedicated apple-stores.

Exactly. Tero Pesonen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dave Howorth wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

Perhaps SUSE could team up with the people who publish those Linux Bible books to include a CD. They do publish a SUSE Bible.

It already comes with a DVD containing Suse.

Cheers, Dave

Is that recent? I bought that book a few years ago, and I don't recall a DVD. I'll have to check my copy, when I get home tonight. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:

...

And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.

What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?

When was the last time ANYONE said to themselves: I nned some software... so I better go to the newspaper & magazine stand.

Andreas

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 06 February 2008 16:32, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Well, when was the last time anyone went to a bookstore, like Borders, and looked in the computer section? Perhaps you were looking for something else, but how could you not look in the computer section? You wouldn't be reading this list if you were not!

I'm not sure your point, but... I for one love to peruse the shelves of local bookstores. My favorites are the local used bookstore (a gold mine, if ever there was one, at least here in the Silicon Valley) and the Stanford bookstore (formerly plural, with the now-defunct location literally right around the corner from my now-defunct corporate gig). And Borders, at least the one on University Ave. in Palo Alto, has a very good computer / IT section, and I do enjoy browsing there. And suffering from book-lust as I do, I often cannot refrain from picking up a title or two.

...

Forget magazine stores. Think big.

Amazon.com? Kindle??

--doug

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, February 4, 2008 11:10 pm, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Bob S <911@sanctum.com> writes:

...

And how about all of the potential new users out there. They walk into the store and see it on the shelf. They're ticked off at Windows and they say hmmmm......I've heard a little about this. I think I will try this. Otherwise they would have no idea where to go or what to do to download and install SuSE, or if it was even possible for them.

What about cover mounts for magazines? Wouldn't that have the same effect of visibility?

That would be excellent. It would be especially effective if you would get them into magazines that aren't Linux-specific yet aren't Windows-focused. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media.

The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition. You could perhaps think of selling the books separately; maybe even a thicker one with lots of info :-? Instead of selling the dvd, sell the book, with a dvd for free. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqDwrtTMYHG2NR9URAmtIAJ43nwey1t5frTojXT/MNcsuSAijVACcDdRo 9KOcgC88PyzxzXXOVkge9ZU= =0Uef -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media.

The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition.

You could perhaps think of selling the books separately; maybe even a thicker one with lots of info :-? Instead of selling the dvd, sell the book, with a dvd for free.

Same here. I have every box set from 6.0 to 10.2, but no 10.3. The lack of manuals is the main reason I didn't buy 10.3... even though I don't use them that much, they do get used. Interestingly, a friend I introduced to openSUSE specifically bought the box version from a local shop rather than download it specifically because he got at least some documentation with it I like Carlos' idea of printed material as an extra. What about making the manuals available via one of the online print houses? I know we could all go submit an order ourselves, but facilitating the ordering. maybe via teh website might encourage some newer users to order the books. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. schrieb:

The lack of the printed manuals is the sole reason making me not buy the boxed edition.

Indeed, I really do miss the printed handbook. A cheeky but subtle car sticker would be great too. Something like black chameleon eating a colorful butterfly or so. And btw, I can imagine to buy also Opensuse bundles with good Linux books, e.g. a Kofler for Germany or a O'Reilly in English, or what you find suitable in all countries. It would be great, if such bundles came, at least for major releases, with a Opensuse branding. -- All the best, Peter J. P-N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 05 February 2008 15:30, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media.   ...

They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up.

Well, no. Not only no, but "hell no!". ;-) That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have to click away during installation and then at your first login. It always started like that: Some people not finding it right away (but OTOH also not giving it a real hard try). Look at what stuff we already have that nobody (well, make that "very few", but usually "very few who have the authority to make us") wants to see. Let's take a small tour through current and recent releases we made - just a very random selection: - License agreement at installation start. Yuck. But the lawyers demand it. There must be some old lady who once in the course of this universe couldn't find it right away and then died of sorrow or desparation. ;-) - Media check. Come on. My CD / DVD buring software can do that a lot better, and at a much more appropriate time. - Time zone selection. Interesting for users who happen to install in Thai language on their way to Vladivostok, but just annoying for all those people whose location we can easily deduce from the language they selected. German, Czech, Swedish - time zone unique (unless they are on that train to Vladivostok, too). English is harder, agreed. Some other languages, too. But for most languages there is little question. - Release notes. Well, I might be interested in them after I have my installation done and everything works as expected (including the good MPlayer etc.), but certainly not bang in the middle of all that. - YaST control center. Yes, it's been a while, but we were made to force-press that thing upon the poor user at the end of the installation, too. It was broken for a long time, yet nobody complained. Must be quite some crowd out there using that thing. ;-) - Novell customer center (during registration). Well, marketing. - SuSE greeter. Do we still have it? Well, I guess so - when you don't recycle an existing home directory. It also used to have no window title bar etc. so you really had to hunt that icon down to get rid of it. Gah, gimme a break. - KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face. And now let's think again about documentation or anything else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-) CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 06/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have to click away during installation and then at your first login. It always started like that: Some people not finding it right away (but OTOH also not giving it a real hard try).

So when do you propose to inform people who are NEW to SuSE (especially those who have just switched from Windows).... 5 months after installation????

This may be annoying for you, the experienced user, but it's not about YOU..it's about the INEXPERIENCED USER who is *lost*... doesn't know what the "man" command is, has never heard of "info" either, and seriously needs something BLATANTLY IN HIS FACE to show him where to go to find answers.

To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.

We already have an "Online help" icon on the desktop already. While this has been a complete failure due to other problems that we won't go into here, the solution is not having Yet another annoying popup on login. Have you actually watched inexperienced users using new software? The popups first alarm them "What did I do wrong", then they worry "Is it safe for me to close this?" finally getting rid of it, without actually understanding the content. Popups on application start have all but disappeared from commercial software because they don't work. The information they generally contain tends to be either something like advanced like keyboard shortcuts that you could look up, or something that should be simple but is in fact hidden in the interface, highlighting a problem in the user interface design. The "ktip" style popups are completely context insensitive, meaning they are an interruption to the user's task. Making it easier for people to accomplish their tasks and find help when they get stuck is important, I disagree that throwing popups at them will solve anything.

I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.

Misplaced priority, if you ask me.

Links to your bug reports?

...

- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.

Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.

These have to be clicked on every new programme, which gets tedious, and in my experience fairly useless at imparting useful information to new users.

...

And now let's think again about documentation or anything else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-)

I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.

Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 07 February 2008, Benji Weber wrote:

On 06/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

That's the way we got all that annoying stuff you have

-snip-

...

To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.

We already have an "Online help" icon on the desktop already. While this has been a complete failure due to other problems that we won't go into here, the solution is not having Yet another annoying popup on login. Don't know why it should be a "complete failure" but in regards of Documentation and the different channels of communication it gives IMO an easy access for newbies. If needed we might list the manuals first and not as now as third thing. And I second the opinion against Yet another popup. Michael Have you actually watched inexperienced users using new software? The popups first alarm them "What did I do wrong", then they worry "Is it safe for me to close this?" finally getting rid of it, without actually understanding the content.

Popups on application start have all but disappeared from commercial software because they don't work. The information they generally contain tends to be either something like advanced like keyboard shortcuts that you could look up, or something that should be simple but is in fact hidden in the interface, highlighting a problem in the user interface design. The "ktip" style popups are completely context insensitive, meaning they are an interruption to the user's task.

Making it easier for people to accomplish their tasks and find help when they get stuck is important, I disagree that throwing popups at them will solve anything.

...

I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.

Misplaced priority, if you ask me.

Links to your bug reports?

...

...

- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When

I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.

Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.

These have to be clicked on every new programme, which gets tedious, and in my experience fairly useless at imparting useful information to new users.

...

...

And now let's think again about documentation or anything

else being force-pressed upon the user... ;-)

I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.

Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess.

-- Benjamin Weber

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Benji Weber a écrit :

Hypothesis 2 - People do investigate the icon on the desktop but get lost somewhere between help.opensuse.org and IRC/Forum/List.

my ISP uses a chat room for Hot line, but it's not IRC, but a web based chat, available at any time (7/7, 24/24) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 07/02/2008, Wolfgang Woehl wrote:

Benji Weber:

...

Hypothesis 1 - People don't notice the icon on the desktop, or don't think it's important.

In my case more like "People don't get the icon in the first place" (Fresh install, old /home and user account)

Ok, that's a third case I hadn't considered, although I'm not sure people who have a working existing install and have managed to upgrade are the same people who would benefit from help.opensuse.org. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 07 February 2008 04:36:09 am Benji Weber wrote:

On 06/02/2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

.......<snip a whole bunch>,,,,

...

I cannot fathom your mindset, when it's the onus is on the vendor to make things easier for the newbie user.

Making it easier is indeed important, which is why it is important to do it properly

OK, we all agree on that.

, not just "this seems like a good idea, let's add it". If there were popups for everything someone thought users should know it would be a complete mess.

You're probably rignt on that Benjamin. Sooo...What do we do about that. Ignore it?? The present way certainly doesn't work. The old way worked. Boxed sets and printed manuals. Did for me, many years ago. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Donnerstag 07 Februar 2008, Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

[...] Would that really make so many more users read them? And if so, when would they read them?

Just to add some thoughts about that: From my experience we don't get that much bug reports for documentation (if at all) from the community. Well, either our documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;) Even in magazins when they test our distribution, they barely look into our documentation or even rate it. Some tests don't mention it at all. So it seems that either users don't know or don't care. :) I remember a poll few years ago which also asked about our documentation. The answers showed that documentation was considered important but it was not important to have a printed manual. I don't know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now. Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Schraitle a écrit :

documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)

no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...

know the exact numbers, but that's rougly the trend that we are facing now.

may be you don't poll the low band users... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Schraitle a écrit :

...

may be you don't poll the low band users...

*I* did nothing, it was done by marketing. :) So I can't comment on the method they used.

of course :-) but most high band adsl users take they doc on the web (google is incredibly god), but how can the others do? and it's yet a grat part of the world I even know many (really many!!) that can't absolutely not read in english, when printing a book in any of the wiki langages would cost an eye... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Thu, 2008-02-07 at 17:32 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Thomas Schraitle a écrit :

...

documentation doesn't contain any errors (which I doubt) or it is of minor importance for most. ;)

no, but it's almost impossible to fix a printed book :-) and the next one is different, so fixing it is not possible either...

Well, it depends....

Some time ago i send a bug report to the guys from QNX. A lot of nice features were not working as extensively described in their manuals....

A month later a got a update from Canada: Not new software, but a new set of manuals in which they removed all the pages I referenced.

One way of "resolving issues".

That sounds like the Microsoft way of fixing the problems with their OOXML "standard". -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

On Wednesday 06 February 2008 20:51, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

...

They need to be presented to the new user at first boot up. Well, no. Not only no, but "hell no!". ;-) Put the crack pipe down.

Try to discuss like a grown-up person. Thank you.

...

So when do you propose to inform people who are NEW to SuSE (especially those who have just switched from Windows).... 5 months after installation????

This may be annoying for you, the experienced user, but it's not about YOU..it's about the INEXPERIENCED USER who is *lost*... doesn't know what the "man" command is, has never heard of "info" either, and seriously needs something BLATANTLY IN HIS FACE to show him where to go to find answers.

Any you want to show him all that in one pop-up during installation? That's an ambitious objective. I certainly like our manuals, but they are not a substitute for some willingness to learn.

Not a popup. Something USEFUL, like having SuSE Help Center running by default (until the user chooses to no longer have it running by default), as a reminder that REAL help (as opposed to windows-style "Bold text: click the bold text button to make text bold" non-help).

Did your car come with a manual trying to teach you how to drive?

I can go anyplace and find a driver's education school. I can also find numerous places to find out how to use not only windows, but even how to use a particular PROGRAM in Windows -- ridiculous, but true. There are *NO* "learn to use Linux" classes in most places, unless one is willing to spend several hundred dollars or more for a systems admin course to get certification to show a potential employer. The typical Linux newbie does NOT want to spend $500 to learn how to use an OS.

...

To the newbie, that's not annoying, it's FRIENDLY.

No, it's not. I've been working on that installation stuff for years. I've come across all kinds of users. We did all kinds of tests with newbies, even with computer illiterates, and of course also with what we consider "average" users.

When you are new to an OS, the first obstacle you have to come across is to get it installed so you can start experimenting. This is why the installation experience is so important. The more complicated we make this for the user, the more potential for trouble we create. So we try to make it simple, to figure out stuff automatically whenever we can, to make useful suggestions, not to ask questions the user cannot really answer. Yet at the same time, we always try to keep the door open for more advanced users - we provide "expert" and "details" buttons and dialogs wherever possible. So that installation workflow is really a very delicate balance.

This is not to say the installation is already perfect, much less perfect for everyone. It's a permanently ongoing effort to improve it. (OTOH those who know what it was like in the pre-6.3 days know that Linux installations have come a long way.)

Yes, we would also prefer everybody to have the printed manuals. And to read them, preferably BEFORE the installation. But for economic necessities this

Which is why I advocate the Boxed editions, which have been nixed in favor of this download thing. Now you have a problem... the newbie users DOES NOT HAVE ANY PRINTED MANUALS... and doesn't have the slightest clue how to find the sort of information normally contained in them.

no longer seems to be possible. That's bad. But even worse would be to not have a consumer and/or community distro at all any more (and I know some people around here who put in a lot of their heart blood to prevent just that). So the compromise was to make the printed manuals thinner and save on production cost. Yet, the content is still there - just no longer completely in printed form.

Is a PDF an adequate substitute for a printed manual? Well, certainly not for me. And as this discussion shows, also not for many others.

Again, if the new user doesn't know that the PDF is there, what good is it? It needs to be pointed out to the user that the PDF exists.

Would it improve the situation to tell the user where those PDFs are?

Would it hurt?

Would that really make so many more users read them?

You can't force users to do anything.

And if so, when would they read them?

I can guarantee that if they don't know where the PDF's are then they will never read them. And if the they don't even know they exist, they won't even look for them (not that the new user particularly knows HOW to look for them in the first place. You and I know how to use locate and grep and find..but by definition, newbies don't.)

Imagine the situation. You just got new software installed. It's new, you are eager to try it out. You heard so much about it, now you want to see it for real. You install it. You log in. You try to make sense of everything - everything is new to you.

And there's a NICE FRIENDLY MANUAL ON THE DESKTOP IN CASE YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.....

Is that the situation where you open a PDF reader to read the manuals?

Probably not...but if it's already OPENED UP TO THE INTRODUCTORY DOCUMENT, then the user is being taught such resources are there on the system, available at any time.

Or don't you rather start clicking to see with your own eyes what's happening?

I can only speak for myself, but whenever I am in that kind of situation, I am barely patient enough to read a one-page "quick start" guide. I experiment.

And you and I both are far more technically proficient, AND CONFIDENT, than the typical user on a system they've never used before.

...

...

- License agreement at installation start. Yuck. But the lawyers demand it. Because the law does.

Not quite. There is no law saying "you must present a license agreement". But there are lawyers who convince you that you might lose a lawsuit if you don't.

But if you don't, then it can lead to legal hot water rather quickly.

Anyway, this point is moot - we simply have to do it.

Exactly.

...

I certainly do NOT want to waste *MY* time going through the software selections (which usually takes me about 2 hours) only to find out AFTER the installation that there are detectable errors on the installation media.

So you don't check MD5SUMs when you burned a downloaded ISO?

Just because my .iso file is flawless doesn't mean that the DVD produced from it is flawless too. I've had PRESSED CD's and DVD's with errors on them. You think I'm going to gonna automatically trust a burned CD or DVD to be perfect? There's dust and all kinds of things that can ruin what APPEARS to be a good CD or DVD..but the only way to know for sure is to do an MD5SUM or some other sort of comprehensive check on it.

...

...

- Time zone selection. Interesting for users who happen to

install in Thai language on their way to Vladivostok, but just annoying for all those people whose location we can easily deduce from the language they selected. German, Czech, Swedish - time zone unique (unless they are on that

train to Vladivostok, too). English is harder, agreed. Some other languages, too. But for most languages there is little question.

So when I was doing an English language installation while in Iraq, I'm just screwed, eh.

You didn't read thoroughly. For English, of course we'd always have to ask. But not for those many languages where the result is clear. And it's not as if you couldn't change it if the automatic didn't guess right; it's only one mouse click away in the installation proposal dialog.

Personally, after the langauge is selected, I would set up the time zone based on the language for SOME languages (the ones where the native speakers tend to be limited to one time zone) and then proceed to the time-zone selection to VERIFY that it's the correct time zone. If it's correct, then just click "next"

...

Time zone selection takes minimal amount of time, and yes, it SHOULD be done at the beginning. Any other time is even less appropriate.

English-language users are in a tremendous number of time zones - 6 or 7 in North America alone.

See above.

...

...

- YaST control center. Yes, it's been a while, but we were made to force-press that thing upon the poor user at the end of the installation, too. It was broken for a long time, yet nobody complained. Must be quite some crowd out there using that thing. ;-)

I've noticed problems since 10.0. And instead of fixing it, you guys seem more interested in changing the appearance.

Instead of fixing a buggy presentation of a program at an entirely inappropriate time?

And it's not about changing the appearance what we are about to do. Read the Wiki pages. It's about making it _usable_ again after it has lost its usefulness with the appearance of more and more modules over all the years.

...

Misplaced priority, if you ask me.

Rather, misinformed discussion partner. ;-)

...

...

- SuSE greeter. Do we still have it? Well, I guess so - when you don't recycle an existing home directory. It also used to have no window title bar etc. so you really had to hunt that icon down to get rid of it. Gah, gimme a break.

/home should be on a separate partition by default, (and by default NOT re-formatted) so that /home is recycled

IIRC that's how it has been for the last couple of releases. But then, I am not 100% sure since I rarely change my partitioning when I reinstall - I simply select mount points.

...

...

- KDE tip windows on startup on every program. WTF?! When I open a "konsole" (the KDE xterm) I don't want to be bothered with that stuff. I want to issue some commands, and probably not just for fun. Get that thing out of my face.

Then click "do not show me again" or whatever it is, and stop whining. That's what I did, and you can, too.

You missed the point. This is another example of surprising the user with something completely unrelated and throwing him out of his path. Too many pop-ups are a way of reducing the user's overall attention to those that are really important.

But I'm not advocating KDE style popups every time a new app is started.

CU

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Kevin,

you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing to pay the box price - and a different company that does not go aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-(

Andreas

Hey Andreas, First off, regarding the documentation, I am glad that the PDFs are offered, what I was referring to was to reorganize the Start Up guide, which is printed in the box, to include short tours of the desktop environments in the printed manual.

I think there are enough new users that would be interested in paying a relatively small fee (under $100USD) and getting a good boxed edition (meaning the printed manual I spoke of above, the full system, possibly with legal codecs in the system for paying customers, and just some small cheap openSUSE stickers or decals).

As far as the different company (I'm assuming you're referring to Novell here, correct me if I'm wrong) well, that's a problem that I suppose will always be there.

I couldn't say it better myself. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Bennett wrote:

On Feb 6, 2008 6:43 AM, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 08:09 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Kevin,

you're right that the box is smaller than before but the manuals you're asking for are available as PDFs on the media. We do not have the box anymore in most of the stores. This is indeed a lost marketing way but this is both a result of a changing environment where many more users prefer to download for free (I know there are others) instead of willing

Here in Australia, one of the most popular IT mags (Australian Personal Computer - APC) which is predominately Windows, but also does reasonable coverage of other OS's, often (nearly always) has at least one Linux distro, either as a live version or as an ISO, on their cover DVD. They also have at least one major article re Linux. They are fairly current as well, publishing versions fairly close to the actual release.

In the U.S., all of the "General computing" magazines are so heavily influenced by MS'es advertising dollars, that they editorially constrained from even mentioning MS'es competitors, other than to put them down (increasingly rare as MS'es competitors tend to get torpedoed one way or another...). The only way to get Linux in front of joe-average-user is to keep it on store shelves, or try to rely on the persuasion abilities of IT people. But remember...having a product ON THE SHELF gives the type of credibility that the typical MS user relies on. To them, box on the shelf = credible product, and "download" = crippleware products that want their credit card numbers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael Loeffler a écrit :

...

aggressively into the stores. We had a hard time pushing the box on the shelves in the end - and even where it is still today, you see far smaller numbers:-( I just can second this. With the distribution of broadband combined with the availibility of other

you are right. On my advice, selling the box is nearly impossible. The main reason is not what I have seen, but the fact than new distro come too fast and the box is too soon obsolete. So I think it would be much better to have the *manuals* sold, with inside a dvd. the life is much greater - the 10.1 french manual (the last french available one) is still usable - many manual customers don't worry really about the dvd... this could be first done by mail order, as a cheap try... through amazon, for example, for english manual jdd -- http://www.dodin.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Montag 04 Februar 2008, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

[...]

The point was, not only did having the boxed editions in stores raise the visibility of SUSE, even though it cost money it was worth it. Many of you may wonder how the boxed editions are worth it now, when anyone can go onto openSUSE.org and download the full thing for free. Well, I do feel that openSUSE boxed has lost some worth. Primarily because the old boxed editions came with a good manual. I mean no disrespect to the team who produces the absolutely great documentation at openSUSE, but the printed Start-Up guide, in just from 10.0 -> 10.3 has lost a description of the desktop environments. The actual two desktops are no longer discussed in the printed manual! This is actually useful. especially in openSUSE since we make the user choose between environments at the install. The users could read through the book's description of KDE and GNOME and make their decision that way.

Well, as a member of the documentation team, maybe I can add some more information. :) It's true that there is no description of the desktop environments in the *printed* manuals anymore. However, there is a completely separate book about KDE[1] and GNOME[2] (around 300 pages). Do you know our Quickstart Manuals? For users who just want a small, concise overview, we created the Quickstart Manuals (12 pages) for KDE and GNOME, see [3,4]. As we generate our books for openSUSE and Enterprise products from mainly one source, it is not always easy to make a good selection. Restrictions like time, pages, wishes from PM, etc. force us to think carefully what should go into the printed manuals and what can we leave out. :-) Bye, Tom ---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Dienstag 05 Februar 2008, Carlos F. Lange wrote:

[...]

...

---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf

I just checked my 10.3 boxed DVD 1 and I only found the release notes under DVD:/docu/

You right, I looked at the wrong place.

It would be if they could easily be found by someone looking at the DVD on Windows.

As far as I remember, we had this in former releases but had to remove the PDFs because they were too big.

Are these manuals available anywhere after installation of 10.3?

Search for the packages: * opensuse-manual_en * opensuse-manual_en-pdf * opensuse-gnomeuser_en * opensuse-gnomeuser_en-pdf The HTML version is accessible through the the help center. Bye, Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Schraitle wrote:

Hi,

On Montag 04 Februar 2008, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

[...]

The point was, not only did having the boxed editions in stores raise the visibility of SUSE, even though it cost money it was worth it. Many of you may wonder how the boxed editions are worth it now, when anyone can go onto openSUSE.org and download the full thing for free. Well, I do feel that openSUSE boxed has lost some worth. Primarily because the old boxed editions came with a good manual. I mean no disrespect to the team who produces the absolutely great documentation at openSUSE, but the printed Start-Up guide, in just from 10.0 -> 10.3 has lost a description of the desktop environments. The actual two desktops are no longer discussed in the printed manual! This is actually useful. especially in openSUSE since we make the user choose between environments at the install. The users could read through the book's description of KDE and GNOME and make their decision that way.

Well, as a member of the documentation team, maybe I can add some more information. :)

It's true that there is no description of the desktop environments in the *printed* manuals anymore. However, there is a completely separate book about KDE[1] and GNOME[2] (around 300 pages).

Do you know our Quickstart Manuals? For users who just want a small, concise overview, we created the Quickstart Manuals (12 pages) for KDE and GNOME, see [3,4].

As we generate our books for openSUSE and Enterprise products from mainly one source, it is not always easy to make a good selection. Restrictions like time, pages, wishes from PM, etc. force us to think carefully what should go into the printed manuals and what can we leave out. :-)

Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom. However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing. It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.

Bye, Tom

---- References: [1] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdeuser_en.pdf [2] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomeuser_en.pdf [3] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-kdequick_en.pdf [4] DVD:/docu/en/opensuse-gnomequick_en.pdf

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Dienstag 05 Februar 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

[...] Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.

However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.

It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.

Well, that's not our part, I'm sorry. We only write it. By the way: Did you know, the HTML documentation is accessible from the SUSE help center? :) Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Mittwoch 06 Februar 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

[...] If they're going to pay you to write documentation for new users, and then not work out a mechanism for new users to be (actively) notified the that documentation exists, then SuSe is *FAILING* the new user.

If you think it is important, create a Bugzilla entry.

[...]

Tom -- Thomas Schraitle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX GmbH >o) Documentation Specialist Maxfeldstrasse 5 /\\ 90409 Nuernberg _\_v http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lessons_for_Lizards --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JB2 wrote:

On Tue 05 February 08 08:28, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

<snip>

...

Writing this documentation is all very good, and commendable on your part, Tom.

However..if the new user DOESN'T KNOW IT EXISTS, then it is almost as bad as not even existing.

It needs to be not only "findable" to the new user -- it *MUST* be presented in a way that the new user CANNOT HELP BUT TO SEE THAT IT IS THERE.

Something during the installation, lika a pop-up window that expressly tells the user to write down where the pdf's are and what they are would be a very good start, that way once the system is installed, the user can then go look at them and read them if s/he wants.

If that sort of idea is used, it should be done with 1: "ATTENTION!" written in very BIG letters 2: Statement short enough to read on screen (no scrolling) 3: A mandatory click-button (similar to the that used with license agreements ... clicking a radio button to "I have read and COPIED the location" and a seperate "next" or "proceed with installation" button. However, none of this helps the newbie who needs advice or help concerning partitioning (and lets face it, the default partitioning STINKS). /home, /opt, /tmp, and /local should have their own filesystems.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dear Aaron! I don't know what to add in substance but since you addressed me directly let me clear some things.

Do you realize how much of a complete ingrate you make yourself appear to be?

I don't claim a special version for me (or my buddies as you call them). All I said was that there are distributions with a longer life cycle. For all the Suses I came in touch to I'm thankful. They all, from Suses to opensuses, were a great piece of work. In the end it's not about emotions but future actions. I will choose the linux which seems best for me. And I liked the suse way all the time so I asked if there're plans to release a version which is suitable for my needs. Because I wanted to stick with suse. I will never say (like others do) that any other distribution is superior. That is unthankful. I appreciate what I get and allow myself to ask for things I held useful for.

Why don't you lobby for a return of OpenSuse Professional, which was not nearly as expensive as SLED OR SLES, but sales of such could finance significant longer-term support.

Is this logical inside your argumentation? Is there a difference between opensuse "LTS" and suse prof? All I lobby for is a broad base of "my" linux flavor. I want a sufficient number of people in community. I like all the tuts and hints over the web.

If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very convenient software distribution which has a value in many thousands of euros.

Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg for it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using suse. It reminds me to discussions windows users like to have. Why can't I get windows for free?? Freedom of software is freedom of choice, too.

The horse is dead; no matter how many times you kick it, it isn't going to get up and run a race.

Thanks for the conclusion. I support this. Johannes P.S It always has been a chameleon; not a horse. Hopefully only the horse is dead. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 05:44:14PM +0100, peter wrote:

Johannes Nohl schrieb:

|> If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be |> prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that |> it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very |> convenient software distribution which has a value |> in many thousands of euros.

| Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg for | it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using suse.

As I do. I've always bought SuSE Professional, since the 6.0 release if I recall correctly. I couldn't install it w/o help but I bought it anyway; all the way up till 9.3. Even in the old SuSE times it was not that hard to get a burned copy of SuSE, but I bought it anyway. It was fun to unpack the box and to smell the fresh printed handbook. It was something very valuable to me, but now it became fastfood.

What *I* need is a Long Time Supported SuSE Professional with printed handbook and updates tested several times. Not such as the latest 'disastrous' kernel update. With all the multimedia running out of the box for my workstation and a decent Yast-preset for a CLI-server. Maybe even with a support option based on access to a mailing list where a patient dev would answer all the stupid questions I might have. That means added value to me and believe me I really wouldn't mention to pay for it...again!

What disastrous kernel update? And would you like fries with that? Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter wrote:

I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood.

Escargot? ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter wrote:

James Knott schrieb:

...

...

I'd consider even fries, although I'm not that much into fastfood.

...

Escargot? ;-)

Not that tasty, but at least it can't be considered as a very *fast* food. :)

Yeah, the problem with fast food is you have to catch it first! ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 08:19:26PM +0100, peter wrote:

Marcus Meissner schrieb:

...

What disastrous kernel update?

ROTFL. I knew I'll get some feedback on that point. I was just making sure I get your (opensuse) attention. ;) Nevertheless, you got to admit, the latest update was way far from being perfect...

As I am responsible for tyhe last 10.3 update, its in my area and I can say that having another opensuse version would not really have helped. ANd what specific problem? There was one problem which might have been caught by better testing, the disabled CPUFREQ support. All the KMP issues would have been difficult to solve with all the external KMP handling we have for openSUSE. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David Bolt wrote:

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, peter wrote:-

...

Nevertheless, you got to admit, the latest update was way far from being perfect... Not here it wasn't. I did the kernel upgrade on 3 10.3 systems[0] and, apart from a reordering of the Grub menu on the system that dual-boots, I've not had a problem. The update did or required a change in Grub ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008, David Bolt wrote:- <snip>

before the upgrade. Afterwards, the ordering changed to:

openSUSE 10.3 openSUSE 10.3 - failsafe Windows

Okay, having decided my memory isn't quite as good as it could be, I decided to check and the Memtest section isn't there. Could have sworn it was, unless it's written in black text on a black background, it doesn't show up when booting. The Windows section is still there, and the ordering definitely changed. Just as well Memtest was the last section. I'd hate to have to explain to my wife why she couldn't use Windows when she wants to. Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC |RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 03 February 2008, peter wrote:

Johannes Nohl schrieb: |> If you want something which COSTS MONEY, then be |> prepared to pay for it, and quite *WHINING* that |> it's not being given to you IN ADDITION to a very |> convenient software distribution which has a value |> in many thousands of euros. | | Do you think I'm crying about missing presents? Do you think I beg | for it? No, I don't. I'm *WHINING* about the good time I had using | suse.

As I do. I've always bought SuSE Professional, since the 6.0 release if I recall correctly. I couldn't install it w/o help but I bought it anyway; all the way up till 9.3. Even in the old SuSE times it was not that hard to get a burned copy of SuSE, but I bought it anyway. It was fun to unpack the box and to smell the fresh printed handbook. It was something very valuable to me, but now it became fastfood.

Second that. I always had the boxed Pro versions. 9.3 is still today the best distro I've ever had. If only it was still supported, or I was knowledgeable enough to support it myself, I would be using it instead of this 10.3 that I'm now running. Quality-wise, going to 10.2 from 9.3 was a huge step backwards for me. 10.3 has been even buggier than 10.2, even with all the apparmor, beagle etc. crap removed. Everything about this feels a bit flimsy and unsteady. Heck, even something as simple as the updater applet works unreliably. When I set up the next system I will have to consider between the enterprise desktop version (I think they promise a decent life span for it) or looking at some other distro. I don't know yet. But the current openSUSE is not what SuSE was. Maybe SLED ain't either, but at least they provide security updates for it longer than 18 months or so, meaning, that suppose I get it set up right, I won't have to move to a yet another system the next year.

What *I* need is a Long Time Supported SuSE Professional with printed handbook and updates tested several times.

Couldn't agree more. Regards, Tero Pesonen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Johannes Nohl schrieb: |> I'm afraid you're right on that, but I hope that they at least |> appreciate the feedback they got from us. It could sometimes be more |> worth than an advice of a Goldman Sachs investment banker... ;) | Good point. Finnally you could ask yourself how long there will be a | community version of suse at all. Whether they don't listen to their | users demands or there won't be users because they went away to | another distro. | I ask again: If I'm forced to replace opensuse on some projects to a | distribution with a longer life cycle why should I keep opensuse on my | desktop? Let's brainstorm: 1. SLES with certificates, 24/7 support, provided warranties, etc and with several years of support agreement for a proper calculated charge. 2. Opensuse Community, bleeding edge, *only* downloadable, free of charge for guinea pigs like me. :) 3. Opensuse Comminity LTS, *only* privat-buyable, coz with no possibility of support agreement or warranties, with printed handbook, paying let say 100$ at once. Thus: Novel would cover existing demand. Novel gains indirectly on image and reputation. Most users would stick to the brand; To be honest, 100$ it's probably less painful then getting acquainted with a new distro. I do strong believe there will be not much companies substituting SLES with Opensuse LTS because most of the risk management routines in those companies would forbid it... but if so, then that would be IMO better for novel than let his users substitute Opensuse with e.g. Centos. Some of us, however, would really love to substitute Opensuse with Opensuse LTS e.g. for servers. A Opensuse LTS would thus generate an additional cash flow for novel or opensuse.org. The latest means less subvention for opensuse.org provided by novel or better salaries for the devs. I'm convinced that a LTS release would neither endanger the current position of Opensuse Community release nor make it obsolete for users. There is an urge among users for bleeding edge software which suits new hardware and make GNU/Linux look fancy. And btw no sane user would mix up a stable LTS with bleeding edge packages, and pay for that "comfort" 100$. Now the easy task: Calling a Goldman Sachs investment banker and let him valuate such an investment strategy... ...hopefully not by the means of WACC ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnfH9h8q3OtgoGAwRAjuFAJwPjVO6CSkf13cZ9ddKxpOaIWu5pACfajUi +IN2A1+wt8/uORE5TL71Vi8= =N89g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

 I have said many times that the ".3" releases should stop being innovative and  just be a cumulative of the ".0" + ".1"+".2" + fixes and IT should get the 2 years of updates alone. This way those wishing to avoid "cutting edge" would  be able to load a Distro with very little "gotcha's" . This would not really be an "LTS" as much as a "this one is absolutely not beta" version.  Novell could actually profit from this in that it's support of the ".3" could  relate more directly to "SP's" for SLE.  but I'm just a "country bumkin", what do I know!  LOL -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket NH 03857 "let's make a difference" http://en.opensuse.org/education -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Aaron Kulkis escribió:

...

selling Suse Desktop and Suse Professional for a small amount of money which helped pay for everything.

No, it didnt help.

...

and YaST would become unavailable, because the source would still be Novell property.

No, Yast is GPL, it cannot become unavailable. you are seriously lost in your analysis.

When was YaST GPL'ed? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Aaron Kulkis wrote:-

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

Aaron Kulkis escribió:

...

selling Suse Desktop and Suse Professional for a small amount of money which helped pay for everything. No, it didnt help.

...

and YaST would become unavailable, because the source would still be Novell property. No, Yast is GPL, it cannot become unavailable. you are seriously lost in your analysis.

When was YaST GPL'ed?

A GPL'd YaST2 was released with SuSE 9.1: davjam@thargon:~> rpm -qi yast2 Name : yast2 Relocations: /usr Version : 2.9.60 Vendor: SuSE Linux AG, Nuernberg, Germany Release : 5 Build Date: Wed 07 Apr 2004 18:15:53 BST Install date: Mon 01 Nov 2004 19:45:22 GMT Build Host: pythagoras.suse.de Group : System/YaST Source RPM: yast2-2.9.60-5.src.rpm Size : 1074160 License: GPL Signature : DSA/SHA1, Wed 07 Apr 2004 18:17:58 BST, Key ID a84edae89c800aca Packager : http://www.suse.de/feedback Summary : YaST2 - Main Package Description : This package contains scripts and data needed for SuSE Linux installation with YaST2 Authors: -------- Michael Andres Waldo Bastian Michael Hager Stefan Hundhammer Klaus Kaempf Mathias Kettner Thomas Roelz Arvin Schnell Stefan Schubert Andreas Schwab Steffen Winterfeldt Distribution: SuSE Linux 9.1 (i586) Regards, David Bolt -- Team Acorn: http://www.distributed.net/ OGR-P2 @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~15Mkeys SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit | openSUSE 10.3 32bit | openSUSE 11.0a1 SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit | openSUSE 10.3 64bit RISC OS 3.6 | TOS 4.02 | openSUSE 10.3 PPC | RISC OS 3.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:30:40 +0100, peter wrote:

I would tend to agree. IMO there should be an additional LTS release of Opensuse.

This is comunity guys, so nobody stops you from doing something like that, even though Novell will stick to the SLE/SLED products. Grab the packages and do a stable release much in the way CentOS does it- Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 03:15 +0100, peter wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Philipp Thomas schrieb:

| This is comunity guys, so nobody stops you from doing something like | that, even though Novell will stick to the SLE/SLED products. Grab the | packages and do a stable release much in the way CentOS does it-

Something like: If you want a nice vacation then why don't you build your own hotel? This is that kind of logic I really admire, indeed.

And btw, you don't need to build anything. Just take SLES and its updates and do a re-branding. It's mostly open source. You just need some little effort and one or two capable layers. But that not the point. The point is to calculate what is better: To wait for such event or to satisfy an existing demand among the users prior that event.

You can probably do that for OpenSuSE, but i'm not sure if you are allowed to do that for SLE(s/d) After all, you need a contract to be able to download the images and the udates. You might breach the terms of that contract.... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hans Witvliet schrieb: | You can probably do that for OpenSuSE, but i'm not sure if you are | allowed to do that for SLE(s/d) According to the GPL releases I would be allowed. | After all, you need a contract to be able to download the images and the | udates. You might breach the terms of that contract.... Nobody's said that the contractor and the builder of such re-branded SLES must be one and the same institution...and sharing GPL/2/3 code AFAIK is not forbidden. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnfWph8q3OtgoGAwRAlFVAKCMNl+spVRmiWyBr8+nvmLkrN/KmACgjD5s 9dmWxXz0xlrYawasW3dJknw= =08rw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Little correction: Ortwin Ebhardt

You need a contract to get updates. If you don't have one you only get updates in the first 30 days. A Novell Contract comes at $290 for a year, $725 for three years.

This is not Dollars, but Euros. till then, Ortwin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 peter wrote:

This all of course purely theoretically!! I just speculate on that topic in order make a point that an Opensuse LTS might be, to same extend, a proper precaution for the future for Novell. But as always I might be wrong.

I think someone is arguing for openSuSE to adopt the Windows Siesta licence model :-) Having so many versions that everyone gets confused :-) - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnLrUasN0sSnLmgIRAgQNAJ0Q+lg6pdush64911DB0cq66LXuygCbBBmf U9CWWRreS85nk40pSxmhvUs= =LCAX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008-01-28T17:22:39, peter wrote:

That's my point. Those updates, maybe not all, are GPl. AFAIK there is no way Novell can forbid to share those updates and AFAIK Novell has also even to provide the source code if at least demanded. The only thing Novell might do is to terminate the subscription under some legally suited pretext.

The code is GPL (or whatever the license happens to be); the signatures, patchinfos etc are not. You'd be allowed to redistribute re-compiled binaries of course. You could create that, just like CentOS, but it would be "unsupported" and "uncertified" by the big ISVs like SAP and Oracle etc. So I wonder what advantage you'd get from that; afterall, the support and certification agreements are a key asset of chosing an Enterprise distro. Regards, Lars -- Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philipp Thomas schrieb: | You're wrong once again. You need a valid maintenance contract in order | to get access to the updates. So rebranding won't work. Keep dreaming. There is no problem in getting such a contract. Don't you have friends and friends and friends. The law is on my side. Read the GPL. Wo ein Wille ist, ist auch ein Weg. ;) - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHnfN8h8q3OtgoGAwRAmBCAJ48mjlEeAWjpG811rXNIQW4Gd22lQCgjC8d 99wR58hsDqb21TdBZG+1SD8= =1gXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Philipp Thomas schrieb: | Even if you know people that provide you with access, you can't offer | those packages openly without being sued. So there is no legal way to do | something like CentOS, unless you're willing to do the maintenance | yourself. You are probably right, but most of the software contained by SLES is GPL. Thus the question is how much time would it take for let say 4 Eastern European hackers to remove the dependencies to the proprietary binaries from the source code and do so for future maintenance as well? I can't define it at will. Can you? Maybe Novell can and thus feels such sure about not having any such competition in the near future. But this is IMO only a minor aspect of the discussion. The main problem is that there are other rpm based distributions which provide stable LTS releases. Thus ask yourself what would one do if forced to use e.g. centos on his server? Will he switch to fedora on his wks as well? Will he ever come back to Opensuse? What distro will he be forcing at his job in the future? SLES or e.g. RHEL? Change is slow, even in the computer industry, but when it starts it might be unstoppable and there might be no time for late reconsiderations. And no, I'm not a reincarnation of Nostradamus. Even if I sometimes sound like a one. ROTFL. Please take also into account that I do wish well for both Opensuse and Novell. If wouldn't do so, then I wouldn't even have 'engaged' into this discussion and thus would consider myself as a troll. - -- All the best, Peter J. N. aedon DESIGNS http://www.hochzeitsbuch.info http://www.hochzeitsbuch.selfip.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHniPxh8q3OtgoGAwRAuhVAJ9+F2rjGsK29ED+Q2AQSqfeQwhk9QCdFNe+ tP0KxnZ1M7bjAEOuRqamIXE= =nfb7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008-01-27T20:56:27, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

So let's sum it up: It is _very_ unlikely, that Novell will help with producing/maintaining openSUSE LTS, so the main question is: are we strong enough community to handle that task?

I'm non-developer, but I'm willing to assist with BETA-testing (which is even more important for LTS releases, than non-LTS ones).

Are there any _developers or maintainers_, that want to handle this difficult, time consuming task?

I've read through this all, and I think you're heading down the wrong path, even though it's well-worn. LTS, or what is commercially called "Enterprise" distros, are a PITA. They avoid change. That makes them brittle, unflexible and costly. Have you ever heard a management trainer advocate "Manage to avoid change"? No? Ask yourself why. What you want, what you _really_ want even if you don't know it, is fluid, painless change. You don't want frozen distros. You want everything to continue working with the newest code. What people _really_ want are perfectly smooth upgrades. This whole Enterprise stuff forces Linux into the mould left by dinosaurs, such as AIX and VMS. They confuse "stability" with "unchanging". You will also find that the same people who want "unchanging" distributions want them to run on the newest hardware at top speed, while providing all the latest features. How people fail to not see the paradox here has always amazed me. Don't fall into that trap. We do it because it brings in cash, not because it makes anyone particularly happy. As long as you think change == bad, you'll fail and suffer. Regards, Lars -- Teamlead Kernel, SuSE Labs, Research and Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

On 2008-01-27T20:56:27, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

So let's sum it up: It is _very_ unlikely, that Novell will help with producing/maintaining openSUSE LTS, so the main question is: are we strong enough community to handle that task?

I'm non-developer, but I'm willing to assist with BETA-testing (which is even more important for LTS releases, than non-LTS ones).

Are there any _developers or maintainers_, that want to handle this difficult, time consuming task?

I've read through this all, and I think you're heading down the wrong path, even though it's well-worn.

LTS, or what is commercially called "Enterprise" distros, are a PITA. They avoid change. That makes them brittle, unflexible and costly. Have you ever heard a management trainer advocate "Manage to avoid change"? No? Ask yourself why.

What you want, what you _really_ want even if you don't know it, is fluid, painless change.

You don't want frozen distros. You want everything to continue working with the newest code. What people _really_ want are perfectly smooth upgrades.

This whole Enterprise stuff forces Linux into the mould left by dinosaurs, such as AIX and VMS. They confuse "stability" with "unchanging".

You will also find that the same people who want "unchanging" distributions want them to run on the newest hardware at top speed, while providing all the latest features. How people fail to not see the paradox here has always amazed me.

Don't fall into that trap. We do it because it brings in cash, not because it makes anyone particularly happy.

As long as you think change == bad, you'll fail and suffer.

I agree 100%. My main disappointment with the change from SuSE Pro to openSUSE is that because openSuSE is a loss-leader, the money isn't there to keep enough people on payroll to make sure that each release is as stable as it should be. SusE Pro 9.3 and each of the previous releases (6.x and up) were very stable products. 10.0 introduced "upgrades" what weren't ready for prime time. In November, 2006, I installed 10.1, hoping it would be an improvement. Instead, YOU (Yast Online Updater) didn't work. I re-installed 2 weeks later. Since I was in Baghdad in the middle of a war zone, writing up a bug report was just about last on my list of then current priorities in life. Reading the list, I see all kinds of nonsense concerned with fiddling with the look and feel of YaST... but if the doggone thing isn't working properly, this is no more beneficial than re-arranging the deck chairs on the RMS Titanic, when the hull has been breached, and bulkheads don't reach the ceilings. I'm still reading on this list complaints of basic functionality which used to work, and are now broken, and they're not getting fixed. I'd be more than happy to pay a reasonable price (along the lines of SuSE Pro) for the hiring of the staff to allow problems like this to get fixed. Another problem ... without your retail version, the local computer (a nation-wide chain named Micro-Center store no longer has ANY sign Linux on the shelves). Congratulations -- by ending SuSE Pro and SuSE Desktop, Novell and SuSE have dropped from a position offering minimal existance in the awareness of the uninitiated to one of complete non-existance. This is NOT the path to increasing the size of the user base. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org