On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Which is probably because only the latest version is actually boxed for sale. As you're doing a new install anyway, why not go for 13.1?

Because there seems to be a lot of argument about various features in 13.1 and because a new number release always seems to have a bunch of bugs that get fixed later. And because it took DAYS to download the file and it was broken. My connection speed is fine (in the neighborhood of 10 Mb/s) but the download process was a complete failure.

Oh good grief... do NOT base your decision on the trolls that have been busy gleefully poisoning the mailing list these last two weeks. They are just trolling the regulars and complaining because their highly customized openSUSE installs which fight things at every turn doesn't work - and not much wonder with all the effort they spend intentionally breaking things. openSUSE 13.1 is a LOT better than 12.3 - not to say 12.3 is bad, but. seriously.. please do not think that the trolling here is indicative of real actual problems with 13.1. It's a rock solid release.

That would be fine, but I just don't have a year to wait for a download. I can buy a computer on-line and have it delivered to my door in two days. Why can't SuSE manage to offer the same and for 12.X which the website says is still supported?

What mirror are you using? I download the 13.1 iso in under an hour on my connection and it's not much better than yours. If it's taking that long to download on a 10Mbit connection, there's a problem with the mirror you're using, not openSUSE. C. -- openSUSE 13.1 x86_64, KDE 4.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Thomas Taylor wrote: <snip>

Hi Tony, 13.1 has been out for some time now. Most of the bugs have been worked out and what remain are minor in nature. There is no such thing as a bug free operating system (case in point - Microsoft).

Not to start any flame wars here, but I'm pretty happy with Mac OS X. I remember when I first started using it and it looked an awful lot like the file structure on my Caldera Open Linux installation and I was pretty happy about that.

One way you can decide if a version is adequately bug-free for your use is whether the enterprise version has the same version number to what you wish to download. OpenSUSE gets any major bugs out before releasing that version in an enterprise package.

I need to do very few things with Linux: 1. run a CAD modeling program called variCAD. 2. run a PC board layout program called Eagle. 3. run Netatalk so I can transfer files to my Mac, so that needs a functioning gcc.

Personal question - why do you want a boxed version as opposed to a downloaded ISO?

Because it comes all finished in a box and I don't have to fuss with anything at all. And I get to pay someone an amount for the work they put out. Do you experience download problems with other software? Not at all. I believe

Earthlink is a telecom physical line only and if you live far from the telecom switch or have poor wiring it might be worthwhile to obtain one of the satellite services if that is affordable for you.

I only use Earthlink as an email address (on their SMTP server), and only out of habit. I have other email addresses on my domain hosting server. I have Comcast high-speed cable access to the web. Another option is to obtain

one of the Linux magazines which feature "free" DVDs of various distros. Of course you have to pay for the magazine but you get a lot of knowledge from it also.

Tom

That's true, but some of those distributions are bare minimum. I really need the full gcc compiler and all of the support libraries. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-13 07:02 (GMT-0700) Tony Alfrey composed:

it took DAYS to download the file and it was broken. My connection speed is fine (in the neighborhood of 10 Mb/s) but the download process was a complete failure.

Days using what method, a web browser? Try a full-fledged downloader instead. They have ways to deal with problems like broken connections and corruptions: Aria2, Curl, Wget, Torrent, maybe others. I've been using Wget ever since discovering what a downloader is.

That would be fine, but I just don't have a year to wait for a download.

Skip the web page and go straight to a mirror list. In the USA, go straight to http://mirrors.us.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/ and click your choice of version, then iso, then copy the URL of the tiny validation file (asc or md5 or sha1 or torrent), feed that to your downloader on a cmdline such as Konsole, when up arrow, remove the validation suffix, hit enter and wait only a reasonable time, which on a 10Mbit connection should take under 40 minutes. Going to http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/ instead of kernel.org may or may not be better than kernel.org in USA. Only trying both will tell if there's any significant difference.

I can buy a computer on-line and have it delivered to my door in two days. Why can't SuSE manage to offer the same and for 12.X which the website says is still supported?

There are web sites that will mail people with poor download service (anyone actually) a burned any of a number of different Linux installation isos for under $10. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Tony Alfrey wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Hello;

I tried playing with version 10.3 but discovered that I could not get an appropriate gcc complier with all of the needed libraries. So I'd like to get 12.3

I've tried to download from the SuSE site and it simply takes forever and the download usually fails.

I tried to buy 12.3 in a box but somehow, even though this page

http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:12.3

says I can buy it in a box, the link to purchase puts me over to buying 13.1.

Which is probably because only the latest version is actually boxed for sale. As you're doing a new install anyway, why not go for 13.1?

Because there seems to be a lot of argument about various features in 13.1 and because a new number release always seems to have a bunch of bugs that get fixed later.

Now is later as far as 13.1 goes :-) Well, I would go with 13.1, it's pretty solid. I don't think I've got any critical outstanding bugs anymore.

And because it took DAYS to download the file and it was broken. My connection speed is fine (in the neighborhood of 10 Mb/s) but the download process was a complete failure.

I guess there could be a mirror problem, but I haven't noticed anything myself. Of course I'm using different mirrors - it might be worth trying to access a specific mirror site directly.

...

How about downloading the ISO images and burning them yourself? If your connection is really poor, use rsync and auto-restart it with a script when it quits before a complete image. Once you've got a complete image, run a checksum and compare to the published one.

That would be fine, but I just don't have a year to wait for a download.

Wow. You're exaggerating of course, but are the access rates really so poor? Which mirror are you begin redirected to?

I can buy a computer on-line and have it delivered to my door in two days. Why can't SuSE manage to offer the same and for 12.X which the website says is still supported?

Support != for sale in a box. Also, to my knowledge, SUSE Linux GmbH does not sell openSUSE in a box anymore. That's done by a third party, AFAIK. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.7°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/13/2014 01:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-06-13 16:02, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

Which is probably because only the latest version is actually boxed for sale. As you're doing a new install anyway, why not go for 13.1?

Because there seems to be a lot of argument about various features in 13.1 and because a new number release always seems to have a bunch of bugs that get fixed later.

It is not that new, it was released last November. And 12.3 is supported till this September, so you will be wasting your money buying it.

http://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime

Listen, I'm using 13.1 on several machines, with no problems. 13.1 is a VERY good release, and it is scheduled by extended support by Evergreen.

Look, people use the forums and mail lists to complain and/or solve their problems. You will not see here many people praising a release all the time. Any release.

All releases were heavily criticised at their time.

All in all, 13.1 was unlike many other x.1 releases. It was remarkable problem free and stable. As Carlos says, it is now mature; the updates are there and there is a whole new KDE repository if that's what you want. Oh, and many other repositories with specific tools thanks to the Build Service. I've just gone to one for an exFAT FUSE driver which isn't in the base. My tablet uses exFAT for its 32G and 64G microSD cards. The build service and other repositories I consider an essential part of what makes openSuse great!

Oh, yes, I remember that 5.3 was a good release. No idea why they ever released 6.1. >:-P

Yes, I started my openSuse adventures back then :-)

«DownThemAll!, a Firefox plugin, is one of the easiest way to use Metalinks.»

I have used it in Windows, works fine. In Linux I use aria2c.

If I know where it is I use wget; if I find it using Firefox I use DownThemAll. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello; I found a mirror that downloaded in two hours and I then burned an image (on my Mac). So should I attempt an "upgrade" or a "new install"? I desperately want to keep my boot loader configuration (it loads an additional linux on another SATA drive or Windows on an IDE drive) which uses LILO. When I did a "new install" for 10.3, I was able to retain LILO (but I needed to add some lines from my archived script). I don't understand GRUB. I have seen some posts that implied that an "upgrade" from 11.X to 13.1 failed. Any suggestions? Thank you. Tony Alfrey -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/13/2014 06:22 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Hello;

I found a mirror that downloaded in two hours and I then burned an image (on my Mac). So should I attempt an "upgrade" or a "new install"? I desperately want to keep my boot loader configuration (it loads an additional linux on another SATA drive or Windows on an IDE drive) which uses LILO. When I did a "new install" for 10.3, I was able to retain LILO (but I needed to add some lines from my archived script). I don't understand GRUB.

I have seen some posts that implied that an "upgrade" from 11.X to 13.1 failed.

Any suggestions?

As I said, context is everything and the answer to many questions like that is "it works for some of us and not for others" and the details of why are not completely determined or determinable. I've done both that upgrade with no problem and I've done new installs without encountering any of the problems that Per Jessen mentions. But obviously _some_ people have encountered those problems and hence the bug reports. It occurs to me that if you have systems on distinct drives than the BIOS boot loader can differentiate. If I press F11 I'm offered a choice of booting from DVD, USB or any one of my connected SATA and IDE drives. I have older systems on IDE drives, one just to prove I *can* put all of Linux on a 30G drive :-) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 06:35 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 06/13/2014 06:22 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Hello;

I found a mirror that downloaded in two hours and I then burned an image (on my Mac). So should I attempt an "upgrade" or a "new install"? I desperately want to keep my boot loader configuration (it loads an additional linux on another SATA drive or Windows on an IDE drive) which uses LILO. When I did a "new install" for 10.3, I was able to retain LILO (but I needed to add some lines from my archived script). I don't understand GRUB.

I have seen some posts that implied that an "upgrade" from 11.X to 13.1 failed.

Any suggestions?

As I said, context is everything and the answer to many questions like that is "it works for some of us and not for others" and the details of why are not completely determined or determinable.

I've done both that upgrade with no problem and I've done new installs without encountering any of the problems that Per Jessen mentions.

But obviously _some_ people have encountered those problems and hence the bug reports.

It occurs to me that if you have systems on distinct drives than the BIOS boot loader can differentiate. If I press F11 I'm offered a choice of booting from DVD, USB or any one of my connected SATA and IDE drives. I have older systems on IDE drives, one just to prove I *can* put all of Linux on a 30G drive :-)

The installation of 13.1 is a complete, broken mess. Supposedly everything went fine, but KDE is simply totally broken. It presents me with a screen with no taskbar, strange fragments of boxes that open sporadically as I try to create a panel or widget, strange blobs of stretched fonts. Stuff that appears and disappears on the screen at random.

There is no sense in spending any time with this whatsoever. There was a time long ago when I tried to convince Windows users that they should switch to linux and that installation and setup was transparent. That time has long since passed.

Thanks all for your help.

Very odd. I haven’t followed the thread closely, but 13.1 has been extremely easy to install, virtually problem free and overall an improved release. Did you check the installation media prior to install. Is it possible you have some buggy hardware? Gustav. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 07:44 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

Very odd. I haven’t followed the thread closely, but 13.1 has been extremely easy to install, virtually problem free and overall an improved release. Did you check the installation media prior to install.

I did not. I am downloading a different image and will do that.

...

Is it possible you have some buggy hardware? Gustav.

I think not. I have a Fedora 10 partition on the same box on a different drive which does exhibit some well-known Fedora issues, but not a complete mess of KDE. And my SuSE 9.1 install was just fine until my graphics card failed (and the new card was not recognized by Sax from that vintage). Even the 10.3 install looked good (a disk I'd had around forever) but again, no support for gcc, BerkeleyDB and Netatalk rpms for that vintage.

snip I tried burning the 13.1 image 4 times and it always failed the installation media check. I could not figure out what was wrong until I tried an external DVD drive. It seems that my laptop DVD drive is failing. I always check the media (on the installation menu) before installing. If it fails, burn another disk until it passes. Of course one's mileage may vary, but 13.1 has been the most pleasant install since suse 6.3. Up to now 10.3 had been my favorite version. In 13.1 everything works "out of the b ox" compared to other versions (I've had 11.0, 11.2.11.4 and 12.3 on this laptop). Pulse audio, video (nouveau driver), wifi, virtualbox, all my applications are without major glitches (except Amarok but I replaced that with clementine). I was even pleasantly surprised that Kwallet was easy to use - I have always given up on it before. The output to TV via HDMI was a breeze and on my wife's laptop 13.1 had to have the Nvidia driver installed (for HDMI out to work). The nvidia driver configuration on 13.1 was the easiest install ever - definitely something a newbie could do. Even the the bootloader installation picked up both my 12.3 Suse install and WinVista installations and automatically put them on the menu - I did not have to do any configuration for all systems to boot after the install. Don't give up on 13.1 so easily, it is IMHO a great release, and IMHO suse just gets easier and easier to use. I don't know if it's the best distro for newbies though. Gustav.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 03:33 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 06/14/2014 11:23 AM, Gustav Degreef wrote:

...

Don't give up on 13.1 so easily, it is IMHO a great release, and IMHO suse just gets easier and easier to use. I don't know if it's the best distro for newbies though. Gustav.

I agree, Gustav. I recently installed 13.1 on some new HP laptops and EVERYTHING WORKED! WiFi,Bluetooth, Webcam, and even the function buttons to control audio and screen brightness all worked.

To be fair. I am having trouble with SAMBA. -- Three things are certain: Death, taxes, and lost data. Guess which has occurred. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 8:29 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 06/14/2014 01:44 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote: While I do have a stable system it is the result of some compromises. If I install the Nvidia driver and use Thunderbird or Firefox under KDE then I can' drag-n-drop messages or tabs without causing a crash and ending back at the login prompt. Using 'nv' or 'nouveau' are fine. Then again, some splash screens from KDE-Look.org don't work in various 'interesting' ways, though I've not had what you seem to be describing.

There was something about this problem being fixed (for some people) in the new 340.17 release from Nvidia... https://devtalk.nvidia.com/default/topic/751890 C. -- openSUSE 13.1 x86_64, KDE 4.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-06-14 19:44, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

...

Very odd. I haven’t followed the thread closely, but 13.1 has been extremely easy to install, virtually problem free and overall an improved release. Did you check the installation media prior to install.

I did not. I am downloading a different image and will do that.

If you are using a real DVD (not an USB stick), just choose the entry on the boot menu that says "media check" or something similar.

I'm using a DVD. I booted from the original DVD, selected "Check Installation Media", a yast-like looking screen appeared, it plodded its way through the disk (taking some time) and announced "no errors found". The new mirror has decided that what was originally going to be a 2 hr download, is now an 8 hr download. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-15 03:06, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

I'm using a DVD. I booted from the original DVD, selected "Check Installation Media", a yast-like looking screen appeared, it plodded its way through the disk (taking some time) and announced "no errors found".

Then the dvd is good. Don't bother to download it again. You can also use one of the checksum methods to verify the downloaded file on your hard disk (gpg, md5...).

The new mirror has decided that what was originally going to be a 2 hr download, is now an 8 hr download.

You do have problems with Internet... If you were using a metalink downloader, as I suggested, it would download simultaneously from several mirrors, killing those that do not perform, automatically. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-15 09:29, jdd wrote:

Le 15/06/2014 03:06, Tony Alfrey a écrit :

if you have a good internet link, a solution is to use the net cd and install from the net.

But he hasn't. He had problems downloading the ISO, taking many hours and wrong size. What exact problem (cause) it is, it is unclear. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 06/14/2014 12:54 PM, C wrote:

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

The installation of 13.1 is a complete, broken mess. Supposedly everything went fine, but KDE is simply totally broken. It presents me with a screen with no taskbar, strange fragments of boxes that open sporadically as I try to create a panel or widget, strange blobs of stretched fonts. Stuff that appears and disappears on the screen at random.

There is no sense in spending any time with this whatsoever. There was a time long ago when I tried to convince Windows users that they should switch to linux and that installation and setup was transparent. That time has long since passed.

Thanks all for your help.

Huh? What happened?

I can't imagine what broke. I've installed 13.1 dozens of times on almost as many different hardware combinations, and it's absolutely fine every time. KDE4 in 13.1 works flawlessly. It's not broken at all after install - assuming a default install with out any tweaking it has always "just worked" on every single install I've done.

The more I think about it the more I believe Tony is describing a graphics problem and not a Linux or KDE problem. -- I'm often surprised at what I think is self-evident but isn't to others. -- Jim Henderson, 27.05.2012 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Carl Hartung wrote:

...

Huh? What happened?

My interpretation is he upgraded in situ and skipped a few releases in the process. This is really not a good idea, btw, IMPE* and IMHO.

*I've /read/ here on the list from time to time, over the years, that it usually, supposedly, 'just works' ... but I've never actually had that experience. I think it was the third time I got 'bit' trying (not too badly, had backups) that I gave it up for good. Now I always start with a clean '/' partition and do a fresh installation 'from scratch.' I move my user space on '/home' from ~/carlh to ~/.carlh and have the installer create a new 'stock' user space for me. Then I migrate (and troubleshoot, if necessary) my settings and data one application at a time. This method completely avoids me getting tripped up by user environment upgrade breakage and upgrade related system level problems.

Aha... I also never upgrade. I have critical data on a separate drive. I back up my /home to my NAS. Wipe and clean install. Make sure things are happy post-install (and on 13.1 that's easy as it's a point and click install), and copy back a few of the config files. A version update takes very little time.. and I clean things up along the way. I read over the problems Tony reported and it sounds like it's a video card problem. I've had failing hardware do exactly what he described... I hope that's not what's happening, but... sure sounds like it. C. -- openSUSE 13.1 x86_64, KDE 4.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 11:51 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

I installed a brand new video card before I started all of this.

And what was that? Tony, you're real good at supply hints but no details. have you bothered setting up that card in full composting mode? When you say Fedora knew what to do with it, was that running KDE 4.12/4.13? Because if not then remarks about what it can do and what Suse can do are specious. As I say, KDE can take a lot of options and is demanding of the way it is set up and the way the X server/driver is set up. Its possible that F10 was set up one way and suse was defaulting to another. Drooping hints and side comments like you do is unhelpful since we don't know what you have and how its configured. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 14/06/2014 20:10, Tony Alfrey a écrit :

As was mentioned, I'm going to load a different image. I can see no other excuse for this behavior other than a broken KDE.

yes, and please verify the imlage before complaining. faulty dvd if very often the cause of problems (specially when only a small part of the dvd is faulty). that said, if you never used kde4, may be you just have to learn it? I see you never tried windows 8 :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Tony Alfrey [06-14-14 13:31]: [...] rant removed

Linux has simply lost its relevance.

To YOU! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote: <snip>

I will say though, that Linux has been working fine for me for decades. But I would not use Mac hardware to install it on, that's looking for trouble, IMHO.

The only thing I'm using my Mac for is to download the ISO. Everything is installed on a vanilla Athlon XP box with a couple SATA drives. I need /some/ sort of box to connect to the web to get files and burn the ISO. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 12:54 PM, C pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

The installation of 13.1 is a complete, broken mess. Supposedly everything went fine, but KDE is simply totally broken. It presents me with a screen with no taskbar, strange fragments of boxes that open sporadically as I try to create a panel or widget, strange blobs of stretched fonts. Stuff that appears and disappears on the screen at random.

There is no sense in spending any time with this whatsoever. There was a time long ago when I tried to convince Windows users that they should switch to linux and that installation and setup was transparent. That time has long since passed.

Thanks all for your help.

Huh? What happened?

I can't imagine what broke. I've installed 13.1 dozens of times on almost as many different hardware combinations, and it's absolutely fine every time. KDE4 in 13.1 works flawlessly. It's not broken at all after install - assuming a default install with out any tweaking it has always "just worked" on every single install I've done.

C.

With a move from 9.1 and also to KDE4 I would guess that Tony doesn't know to "lock Widgets" to keep them from moving/disappearing like magic. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-14 09:35 (GMT-0700) Tony Alfrey composed:

The installation of 13.1 is a complete, broken mess.

Did you disable optional repos (VideoLAN, Packman, etc) first? If not, tsk tsk. Not disabling first might be OK going from one version to the next, but not likely leapfrogging several. Which KDE were you using before creating the mess? If KDE3 made you happy then, it should in 13.1 too, so enable the optional KDE3 repo[2], install KDE3 (from cmdline on one of the ttys if necessary[1]), remove KDE4 (can wait until after KDE3 works, or forever except for KDM4, unless you know how to change the default display manager from KDM4 to KDM3 in /etc/sysconfig/ or in YaST*), and restart the computer to get switched from KDM4 to KDM3. http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/SUSE/131/kde3pkgs.txt is a list of all installed kde3 packages on one of my 13.1 installations. Most there not in the list in [1] below were pulled in as deps of packages listed there. If you need tidy up help after installing KDE3, best you ask on the opensuse-kde3 list. [1] 'zypper ref; zypper in kdebase3-kdm kdebase3 kdebase3-SuSE kdebase3-runtime kdebase3-session kdebase3-workspace kdeadmin3 kdeutils3 kdebase3-apps' should be enough to get you started, after which you can get back to using YaST2 to remove KDE4 and add whichever other KDE3 bits you want. [2] If you can't reach YaST2, on a tty, login as root, 'cd /etc/zypp/repos.d/' and do 'wget http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_13.1/KDE:KDE3.r...; zypper ref' -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 02:06 PM, ellanios82 wrote:

On 06/14/2014 07:35 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

but KDE is simply totally broken

---

- nothing to be lost by using yast to install XFCE instead of KDE . . .

+1 -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Karl Sinn wrote:

Am 14.06.2014 20:30, schrieb Anton Aylward:

...

On 06/14/2014 02:06 PM, ellanios82 wrote:

...

On 06/14/2014 07:35 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

but KDE is simply totally broken

---

- nothing to be lost by using yast to install XFCE instead of KDE . . . +1

+1

What would be the appropriate command from a terminal? I assume "yast" to start, but then to install the window manager? Thanks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2014 03:03 PM, Karl Sinn wrote:

Am 14.06.2014 20:54, schrieb Tony Alfrey:

...

What would be the appropriate command from a terminal?

I assume "yast" to start, but then to install the window manager?

Thanks

yes, open yast on the command line or the gui (yast2) as root. then select: patterns-openSUSE-xfce_ patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office + everything else you want to install

I'm not sure if this will install everything needed, as I always choose XFCE when I first install openSuSE. If things are missing and you can't find them just write a message on this list.

After this you have to restart the xserver and choose XFCE for startup at the loginscreen

Karl

Its probably simpler to run from the root prompt # zypper install patterns-openSUSE-xfce (or even patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis. Patterns-openSUSE-xfce_laptop or patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office ) That way you get all the dependencies taken care of and don't have to fiddle around with the awkward version of yast that run in terminal mode. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:
> On 06/14/2014 03:03 PM, Karl Sinn wrote:
>> Am 14.06.2014 20:54, schrieb Tony Alfrey:
> 
>>> What would be the appropriate command from a terminal?
>>>
>>> I assume "yast" to start, but then to install the window manager?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>> yes, open yast on the command line or the gui (yast2) as root.
>> then select:
>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_
>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis
>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office
>> + everything else you want to install
>>
>> I'm not sure if this will install everything needed, as I always choose
>> XFCE when I first install openSuSE.
>> If things are missing and you can't find them just write a message on
>> this list.
>>
>> After this you have to restart the xserver and choose XFCE for startup
>> at the loginscreen
>>
>> Karl
> 
> 
> Its probably simpler to run from the root prompt
> 
> # zypper install patterns-openSUSE-xfce
> 
> (or even patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis. Patterns-openSUSE-xfce_laptop or
> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office )
> 
> That way you get all the dependencies taken care of and don't have to
> fiddle around with the awkward version of yast that run in terminal mode.
> 


I can't even get to a Terminal on the Desktop in KDE.  As I move the 
mouse around on the screen, all sorts of panels and windows open and 
close in various pieces, piling up on top of each other.

I managed to reboot into Failsafe mode to get a terminal.
Commanded yast, told me I had to go get it in /sbin, cd to sbin, ran 
yast, gave me a bunch of error messages about how various packages are 
not installed.  It can't find:
qt
ncurses
gtk

That's pretty fundamental for a linux box.

Then in desperation tried the above zypper install of xfce.
It wanted root privileges, I did that.
Then it started pulling packages from somewhere, some 301 packages 
needed.  It clanked along for perhaps a half hour.

Then I rebooted, and found a new option for xfce had appeared and 
started it.

It looks like a real window manager.  Drives, directories, apps, no 
silly junk, no flopping panels, no stupid distorted fonts, no silly widgets.

So the simple bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with my box, or 
my video card, it is KDE that is broken.  Seriously broken.

Thanks for the help in getting this xfce thing working.



-- 
Tony Alfrey
tonyalfrey@earthlink.net
"I'd Rather Be Sailing"
-- 
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On 2014-06-15 00:44 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

> On 06/14/2014 11:25 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
>> Anton Aylward wrote:
>>> On 06/14/2014 03:03 PM, Karl Sinn wrote:
>>>> Am 14.06.2014 20:54, schrieb Tony Alfrey:
>>>
>>>>> What would be the appropriate command from a terminal?
>>>>>
>>>>> I assume "yast" to start, but then to install the window manager?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>> yes, open yast on the command line or the gui (yast2) as root.
>>>> then select:
>>>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_
>>>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis
>>>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office
>>>> + everything else you want to install
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if this will install everything needed, as I always choose
>>>> XFCE when I first install openSuSE.
>>>> If things are missing and you can't find them just write a message on
>>>> this list.
>>>>
>>>> After this you have to restart the xserver and choose XFCE for startup
>>>> at the loginscreen
>>>>
>>>> Karl
>>>
>>>
>>> Its probably simpler to run from the root prompt
>>>
>>> # zypper install patterns-openSUSE-xfce
>>>
>>> (or even patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis. Patterns-openSUSE-xfce_laptop or
>>> patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office )
>>>
>>> That way you get all the dependencies taken care of and don't have to
>>> fiddle around with the awkward version of yast that run in terminal mode.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I can't even get to a Terminal on the Desktop in KDE.  As I move the
>> mouse around on the screen, all sorts of panels and windows open and
>> close in various pieces, piling up on top of each other.
>
> Duh ...
>
> Ctl-Alt-F1 to get a REAL tty
>
>
>>
>> I managed to reboot into Failsafe mode to get a terminal.
>> Commanded yast, told me I had to go get it in /sbin, cd to sbin, ran
>> yast, gave me a bunch of error messages about how various packages are
>> not installed.  It can't find:
>> qt
>> ncurses
>> gtk
>>
>> That's pretty fundamental for a linux box.
>
> Right.  First it tells me that something went wrong with your
> installation if they are not there.
>
> Second, it tells me that somehow it is trying to run a graphics version
> (gtk, qt) and fails -- obviously -- and that you haven't installed the
> curses package. So yast can't run in any of those modes.
>
> Which makes perfect sense.
>
> Which is why I never even try.
>
> I did say to use zypper, didn't I
>
> You don't need yast to do an install of a package.
>
>> Then in desperation tried the above zypper install of xfce.
>
> "Desperation"?
>
>> It wanted root privileges, I did that.
>
> If you had somehow got yast to work it would have wanted root
> privileges. After all, you're doing an install.
>
>
>> Then it started pulling packages from somewhere, some 301 packages
>> needed.  It clanked along for perhaps a half hour.
>
> This is an older machine, right?
>
>>
>> Then I rebooted, and found a new option for xfce had appeared and
>> started it.
>>
>> It looks like a real window manager.  Drives, directories, apps, no
>> silly junk, no flopping panels, no stupid distorted fonts, no silly
>> widgets.
>
> I suspect that you have a slower/older machine/GPU that can't handle the
> composting (?sp?) that the eye-candy in KDE demands.
>
> XFCE is very very lightweight.  VERY.
>
>
>> So the simple bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with my box, or
>> my video card, it is KDE that is broken.  Seriously broken.
>
> Not Broken.  DEMANDING.
>
> KDE uses a hell of a lot of computing power and if your CPU and GPU
> can't deliver it then GAME OVER.
>
>
>> Thanks for the help in getting this xfce thing working.
>
> There are another dozen or so Dms of which many are also lightweight.
> Some express a particular philosophy, such as e16/e17.
>
> XFCE is the '1600 cc ford escort' where s KDE is the extended wheelbase

I think IceWM or TWM would be that micro-motor Escort, XFCE more like a 2.3 
litre Focus.

> Cadillac 12 cylinder SUV with monster wheels and glitz and power
> mirrors, automatic headlights ... You name it.

Overkill. Grand Marquis V8 might be more like it.

In between the Grand Marq and the Focus would be the v6 Taurus, KDE3. His 
SUSE 9.x would have had a KDE3 that demands little different than the KDE3 
available for 13.1.

>   Its not as if we _need_ anything faster than a 2008 P3 with 1G of
> memory.

Yet another typo? Didn't Intel stop producing P3s around 2000? In 2008 I 
think everything was already multicore and 45nm or less. 1G RAM might be on 
the mark.
-- 
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
-- 
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To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dne Ne 15. června 2014 02:42:00, Tony Alfrey napsal(a):

Felix Miata wrote: WAIT A MINUTE! Where can I get KDE 3 for SuSE 13.1? Is that actually possible?

http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3 -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

On 06/15/2014 05:53 AM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

Dne Ne 15. června 2014 02:42:00, Tony Alfrey napsal(a):

...

Felix Miata wrote: WAIT A MINUTE! Where can I get KDE 3 for SuSE 13.1? Is that actually possible? http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3

Glad to hear it. While I have been running KDE4 to resemble KDE3, it's not quite the same, though much better than the default KDE4. In my opinion, KDE4 "fixed" things that weren't broken and introduced other problems. I have added that page to my openSUSE bookmarks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-15 11:42, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

<snip>

...

In between the Grand Marq and the Focus would be the v6 Taurus, KDE3. His SUSE 9.x would have had a KDE3 that demands little different than the KDE3 available for 13.1.

WAIT A MINUTE! Where can I get KDE 3 for SuSE 13.1? Is that actually possible?

Of course it is. There is a bunch of volunteers that still maintain it for openSUSE. There is not a pattern for it, but the packages are there. Some of it possibly on the DVD. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 06/15/2014 02:51 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Strictly speaking, for a lot of what 'the industry' does, old DOS3.3 with WordPerfect4.2 met the requirements of 80% of the office/wordprocesseing needs and probably still does.

- likewise, ms spreadsheet called "Multiplan" on DOS 3.3 .......... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 15/06/14 05:44, Anton Aylward wrote:

KDE works. I mean, like, heck, we have to have something to eat up the power of our 8-core CPUs or all those electrons would just go to waste. Its not as if we _need_ anything faster than a 2008 P3 with 1G of memory. Lets face it, we can only type so fast and only read one page at a time no matter how many screen we have the GPU driving.

You clearly don't do much CGI/3D graphics work, or audio-video processing. My 8-core CPUs and heavy-weight GPUs are regularly churning away at full pelt for hours on end. Very few cycles go to waste round here... Dx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-15 19:22, Anton Aylward wrote:

But even so ... I stand by assertion that we don't need a lot of power ... For many applications. The company DNS/DHCP machine and LDAP/Authentication server is an old single core. So is the departmental IMAP/SMTP server. The receptionist's calendaring system used for reserving rooms and notifying people of appointments is likewise a simple desktop of great vintage.

Not everyone does CGI/D-D rendering or audio processing. The bulk of desktops run 'office' applications and once stripped of the Microsoft eye-candy they don't need a lot of power.

True. But many of us now and then need bursts of power, and we don't like to wait long ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

jdd wrote: <snip>

install is broken. As I said in my other post, dvd readers are the problem very often

jdd

Then I will go out and buy a USB flash card and try it again. I don't want to have a lot of broken stuff on my installation. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-15 16:13 (GMT-0700) Tony Alfrey composed:

It occurs to me that my download problem may be a Comcast problem (they provide my cable access). If the download takes more than an hour, I'm guessing that Comcast cuts my bandwidth and probably screws up the data transfer in the process.

Are you still not using a download app instead of a web browser? Before wasting your time trying to buy anything, download the 200MB or so net install iso, burn it to CD, and do a try install, without trying to add any optional repos until after you have a working installation, and while you're at it, deselect Gnome and KDE and select the third DE option on the choice of three screen. On the screen with a list of patterns, choose the detailed mode, and from there, select only whichever DE(s) you actually want, which IIRC offers KDE3 without needing any optional repos, in addition to LXDE and XFCE, but to get it may require you dig down a little to explicitly check all of the following that you are able to find: kdebase3 kdebase3-SuSE-branding-openSUSE kdebase3-apps kdebase3-kdm kdebase3-runtime kdebase3-session kdebase3-workspace kdelibs3 kdemultimedia3-mixer kdeutils3 - "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2014 08:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-06-16 01:13, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

jdd wrote:

...

Le 15/06/2014 05:25, Tony Alfrey a écrit :

...

This ISO is a freaking mess. Today I tried to add patches to a package of files for BerkeleyDB and the stupid install couldn't find the patch files sitting in the same directory as the un-tarred archive. Time to buy the DVD in a box.

Please, could you instead say how exactly you were doing the above?

+1 Tony, your screams of outrage -- I can imagine you throwing up your hands -- are incredibly unhelpful to us. They may be useful to you for letting of steam but to be of any use we need a bit of precision.

That is, what exactly you were trying to install (filenames, download site, link to the instructions you are following etc), and how.

And also what you were trying to ACHIEVE by this action, what were your OBJECTIVES? Because there may be a completely different way of doing this. One of the UNIX adages *thanks to Larry Wall) is "There's more than one way of doing things".

A paid for DVD will not solve that particular problem.

+1 Years ago when I had similar problems I got a friend to burn a suse DVD for me. Tony, why do you imagine a paid-for-in-a-box DVD will be any better than a (good) download and a (good) burn by someone else?

Notice that zypper will ignore a package name you give that is in, say, the current directory. It will insist in finding it in one of the configured repositories. And, it is incapable of installing anything but rpms. Certainly not source tars, nor source patches.

+1 -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-16 09:22, jdd wrote:

the sold iso is exactly the same as the downloaded one and always was. It's even a reason why the iso is never updated.

Not always. It often was a dual layer DVD, that is, 9 gigs. Sometimes it was a double arch DVD (for both 32 and 64 bit installs, and other times it contained one arch and many more packages (thus two DVDs in the box, one for each arch). In the later case it meant they were better for offline upgrades.

You should understand than the original dvd is not the reason, and try to fix your problems - starting from the running xfce you seems to have :-)

Absolutely. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-16 12:54, jdd wrote:

Le 16/06/2014 12:26, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

It often was a dual layer DVD, that is, 9 gigs.

AFAIR it was before openSUSE, when it was not downloadable at all (two box versions, personal or professional)

No, no. openSUSE 11.1 was like that. Telcontar:~ # df -h /mnt/dvd Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/sr0 6.8G 6.8G 0 100% /mnt/dvd

Sometimes it was a

...

double arch DVD (for both 32 and 64 bit installs,

but same content as the dl one

Nope. Not really.

and other times it

...

contained one arch and many more packages (thus two DVDs in the box, one for each arch).

?? if you have two arch (32 & 64 bits), you need two dvd or a double face one (it's the same thing)

No. This is the 11.1 DVD in the box (came with an extra CD): Telcontar:~ # ls /mnt/dvd/suse/ i586 i686 noarch setup x86_64 Telcontar:~ # Telcontar:~ # cat /mnt/dvd/media.1/media openSUSE 20081210052423 1 Telcontar:~ # cat /mnt/dvd/media.1/products / openSUSE 11.1-0 Telcontar:~ # cat /mnt/dvd/media.1/build openSUSE-11.1-DVD9-i586-x86_64-Build0006 Telcontar:~ # Notice the "DVD9-i586-x86_64" string in the name. But 11.3: Telcontar:~ # df -h /mnt/dvd Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/sr0 7.7G 7.7G 0 100% /mnt/dvd Telcontar:~ # cat /mnt/dvd/media.1/media openSUSE 20100707095733 1 Telcontar:~ # cat /mnt/dvd/media.1/build openSUSE-DVD-Biarch-i586-x86_64-Build0702 Telcontar:~ # It was called "Biarch". The box had an extra DVD with other things. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Le 16/06/2014 12:54, Tony Alfrey a écrit :

There are clearly pieces missing on the DVD. I mentioned qt, ncurses, gtk.

if it was so, no kde nor gnome application could run :-)

Now I can't patch code-to-be-compiled (that I need for BerkeleyDB) with a simple command line (from within the un-archived BerkeleyDB directory)

patch -p0 < name-of-patch-file

did you install development pattern (gcc and the like)? looks like you don't understand how things work jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-16 12:54, Tony Alfrey wrote:

There are clearly pieces missing on the DVD. I mentioned qt, ncurses, gtk.

False. Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1 # ls openSUSE-13.1-DVD-i586.iso openSUSE-13.1-DVD-x86_64.iso.sig openSUSE-13.1-Rescue-CD-i686.iso.sig openSUSE-13.1-Rescue-CD-x86_64.iso.sig openSUSE-13.1-DVD-i586.iso.sig openSUSE-13.1-Rescue-CD-i686.iso openSUSE-13.1-Rescue-CD-x86_64.iso openSUSE-13.1-DVD-x86_64.iso openSUSE-13.1-Rescue-CD-i686.iso.meta4 openSUSE-13.1-Rescue-CD-x86_64.iso.copia Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1 # mkdir mnt Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1 # mount openSUSE-13.1-DVD-x86_64.iso mnt/ mount: /dev/loop0 is write-protected, mounting read-only Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1 # cd mnt Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1/mnt # ls ARCHIVES.gz GPLv3.txt autorun.inf content.key dosutils license.tar.gz openSUSE13_1_NET.exe ChangeLog INDEX.gz boot control.xml gpg-pubkey-307e3d54-4be01a65.asc ls-lR.gz suse EFI README content directory.yast gpg-pubkey-3dbdc284-4be1884d.asc media.1 GPLv2.txt SuSEgo.ico content.asc docu images openSUSE13_1_LOCAL.exe Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1/mnt # So, I have now mounted the 13.1 DVD image (the downloaded one). Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1/mnt # zgrep -i yast INDEX.gz | grep -i qt ./suse/x86_64/yast2-control-center-qt-3.0.0-2.1.3.x86_64.rpm ./suse/noarch/yast2-qt-branding-openSUSE-13.1-10.4.13.noarch.rpm Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1/mnt # See? those are the yast QT components. And: Telcontar:/data/storage_b/Isos/isos_13.1/mnt # zgrep -i qt INDEX.gz | wc -l 61 61 QT packages in the DVD.

Now I can't patch code-to-be-compiled (that I need for BerkeleyDB) with a simple command line (from within the un-archived BerkeleyDB directory)

patch -p0 < name-of-patch-file

BECAUSE devel packages are NOT installed by default! Just open up YaST, and install the simple development pattern.

that worked just fine when I performed the same compile on the 9.1 and 10.3 install /and I can patch the exact same file set with the exact same command on my Mac/ ! The only conclusion that remains is that the ISO is broken.

FALSE! It is not broken, and if you dish out money and buy the box you will face the exact same result, because those packages are not installed by default. It is not broken, but simply that everything is not installed upfront.

The ONLY reason that I don't run the 10.3 install is that I need some other discontinued files from the 10.3 repository. I actually may have just found a source for them but I'm going to try a reinstall of 13.1 with a decent disk first.

Waste of time. Please listen to us, ask us for advice, and don't go up in a wild chase. And give us the exact and full details of what you are attempting to do! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-16 15:15, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 06/16/2014 08:14 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

But rather than document what he'd trying to do, perhaps he should try to detail what he's trying to ACHIEVE.

Absolutely, you are right. English is not my first language, and some times I do not express correctly what I mean. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-16 15:58, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 06/16/2014 09:42 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-06-16 15:15, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 06/16/2014 08:14 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

But rather than document what he'd trying to do, perhaps he should try to detail what he's trying to ACHIEVE.

Absolutely, you are right. English is not my first language, and some times I do not express correctly what I mean.

That's OK, Carlos, when living in 'consulting mode' I find many managers and executives -- for whom English is their first language -- make the same confusion. They do this even though many of the business books and business Gurus have made this point.

I know. :-} In this case, I wanted to express you you said, but I failed to convey it well. Certainly, at least initially I just try to answer what they ask, not what they mean. It is usually later on when I switch to the other mode, and I want to know the goal in order to understand the real issue and advise better. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 06/16/2014 10:12 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Certainly, at least initially I just try to answer what they ask, not what they mean.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less." ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 06/16/2014 08:14 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

...

The ONLY reason that I don't run the 10.3 install is that I need some other discontinued files from the 10.3 repository.

And what are those - and to what purpose?

...

...

I actually may have

...

just found a source for them but I'm going to try a reinstall of 13.1 with a decent disk first.

...

Waste of time.

Please listen to us, ask us for advice, and don't go up in a wild chase. And give us the exact and full details of what you are attempting to do!

While Tony is very good at imprecision about what he is doing, the lack of details (other than complaints, most of which are invalid) is a frustration to anyone trying to assist him. He doesn't document details.

I explained what I need. I need to run VariCAD (which means I'll need to adjust display settings) and I need to run Netatalk so I can transfer files to my Mac. All of this stuff was incredibly transparent in SuSE 9.1 and the only reason I din't reinstall that after I blew up my video card is that repositories are obsolete for that distro. Netatalk needs a compiler and Netatalk needs BerkeleyDB and I'd rather use the vary old versions that I've been using for 10 years because I know how they work. Really very simply, I'd like my old machine to work just like it did. I don't need any fluff or eye candy. It took all of about 30 minutes to make that distro do exactly what I needed. I'm annoyed because linux has evolved from something that an amateur could install (as I was 15 years ago) into something that requires a large skill base. You're not going to convince people to give up Windows with this sort of "experience". Many on the list (about this topic) have given me very specific, helpful details. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-06-17 00:05, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

I'm annoyed because linux has evolved from something that an amateur could install (as I was 15 years ago) into something that requires a large skill base.

Linux evolves at a very quick rate, and it always did.

...

You're not going to convince people to give up Windows with this sort of "experience".

But we do :-p

When c't reviewed openSUSE 13.1 they also concluded that it was a stable release, although more for the experienced user than the beginner. I can't tell you if the writer was right or wrong, but c't is usually quite well-balanced and unbiased. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/16/2014 01:54 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

try a reinstall of 13.1 with a decent disk first

- perhaps it is sufficient to run, as root-konsole : #zypper ve ................. - that will show what dependencies, if any, are unsatisfied ...................... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-06-16 03:54 (GMT-0700) Tony Alfrey composed:

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The ONLY reason that I don't run the 10.3 install is that I need some other discontinued files from the 10.3 repository. I actually may have just found a source for them but I'm going to try a reinstall of 13.1 with a decent disk first.

10.3 was my least liked openSUSE release of all time, in part IIRC because zypper first made its appearance in 11.0.

zypper was in 10.3 too. I'm still using 10.3 for my personal workstation. It's showing it's age, but still going strong. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/16/2014 02:13 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-06-16 03:54 (GMT-0700) Tony Alfrey composed:

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The ONLY reason that I don't run the 10.3 install is that I need some other discontinued files from the 10.3 repository. I actually may have just found a source for them but I'm going to try a reinstall of 13.1 with a decent disk first.

10.3 was my least liked openSUSE release of all time, in part IIRC because zypper first made its appearance in 11.0.

+1

OTOH, post-11.2, 13.1 is maybe my most liked, after 11.4 (because systemd hadn't yet appeared) or tied with it. None of 13.1's bugs I'm aware of have anything to do with your goals or installation trouble.

+1 -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-15 05:25, Tony Alfrey wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

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Its probably simpler to run from the root prompt

# zypper install patterns-openSUSE-xfce

(or even patterns-openSUSE-xfce_basis. Patterns-openSUSE-xfce_laptop or patterns-openSUSE-xfce_office )

That way you get all the dependencies taken care of and don't have to fiddle around with the awkward version of yast that run in terminal mode.

I can't even get to a Terminal on the Desktop in KDE. As I move the mouse around on the screen, all sorts of panels and windows open and close in various pieces, piling up on top of each other.

The answer above told you to "run from the root prompt". You did not.

I managed to reboot into Failsafe mode to get a terminal. Commanded yast, told me I had to go get it in /sbin, cd to sbin,

We said _root_.

ran yast, gave me a bunch of error messages about how various packages are not installed. It can't find: qt ncurses gtk

That's pretty fundamental for a linux box.

It means that your install is broken.

Then in desperation tried the above zypper install of xfce.

The answer above told you to use zypper. Tony, you do not read what we tell you...

So the simple bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with my box, or my video card, it is KDE that is broken. Seriously broken.

KDE is not broken at all (not in your sense, anyway). YOUR install is broken. Do you think we all would be here, happily chatting, if KDE were that seriously broken for most of us? LOL. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-15 12:40, jdd wrote:

Le 15/06/2014 12:32, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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Do you think we all would be here, happily chatting, if KDE were that seriously broken for most of us?

for a 9.x user, zypper is brand new :-) - and a bit frightening :-)

Yep. Huh, nay! An old user would know how to use rpm to install upgrades manually, solving dependencies and conflicts! :-PP -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 09:35:31AM -0700, Tony Alfrey wrote:

The installation of 13.1 is a complete, broken mess. Supposedly everything went fine, but KDE is simply totally broken. It presents me with a screen with no taskbar, strange fragments of boxes that open sporadically as I try to create a panel or widget, strange blobs of stretched fonts. Stuff that appears and disappears on the screen at random.

Hi, I suffered from the same troubles when i installed 13.1 on my 11 year old computer. After some troubleshooting i found out that it was caused by desktop effects. The problem was solved as soon as i disabled the desktop effects. You disable them by pressing Alt+Shift+F12. I do not remember if pressing the keys makes it permanent. To make them permanent disable "desktop effects at startup" via Desktop Configuration. HTH Regards, Cor -- Bureaucratia, goddess of pointless rules -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Tony Alfrey wrote:

Cor van Haastregt wrote:

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On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 09:35:31AM -0700, Tony Alfrey wrote:

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The installation of 13.1 is a complete, broken mess. Supposedly everything went fine, but KDE is simply totally broken. It presents me with a screen with no taskbar, strange fragments of boxes that open sporadically as I try to create a panel or widget, strange blobs of stretched fonts. Stuff that appears and disappears on the screen at random.

Hi, I suffered from the same troubles when i installed 13.1 on my 11 year old computer. After some troubleshooting i found out that it was caused by desktop effects. The problem was solved as soon as i disabled the desktop effects. You disable them by pressing Alt+Shift+F12.

Thanks, I will try that. The KDE window manager is still on the box but xfce is now running and looks like a clean, simple, straightforward window manager. I cannot imagine why anyone would go to all the work required to construct this new KDE thing.

WOW. A real window manager now appears! Where did you find out about this trick? A complete transformation in performance in KDE. There is simply no comparison, it is now a usable machine! Needless to say, thanks very much! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 20:25:25 -0700 Tony Alfrey wrote:

I can't even get to a Terminal on the Desktop in KDE. As I move the mouse around on the screen, all sorts of panels and windows open and close in various pieces, piling up on top of each other.

Tony, What kind of mouse do you have? I've only ever seen behavior like this twice in the past. In the first case, and this was many years ago, the mouse wasn't properly configured. Somehow, motion that would normally move the mouse pointer was being interpreted as left and right clicks. In the second case, the bizarre behavior you've described was caused by random signals being generated by a mouse cable that had worn out and was fraying at a bend. I replaced the mouse and the problem went away. regards, Carl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/13/2014 02:09 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 06/13/2014 01:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2014-06-13 16:02, Tony Alfrey wrote:

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Per Jessen wrote:

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Which is probably because only the latest version is actually boxed for sale. As you're doing a new install anyway, why not go for 13.1?

Because there seems to be a lot of argument about various features in 13.1 and because a new number release always seems to have a bunch of bugs that get fixed later.

It is not that new, it was released last November. And 12.3 is supported till this September, so you will be wasting your money buying it.

http://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime

Listen, I'm using 13.1 on several machines, with no problems. 13.1 is a VERY good release, and it is scheduled by extended support by Evergreen.

Look, people use the forums and mail lists to complain and/or solve their problems. You will not see here many people praising a release all the time. Any release.

All releases were heavily criticised at their time.

All in all, 13.1 was unlike many other x.1 releases. It was remarkable problem free and stable.

Anton, as you like to point out, it's all about context. 13.1 still has some serious/annoying issues:

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=877126 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=872086 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=867779 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=866443 (workaround available) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=862739 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=861318

For the desktop, I'm contemplating migration to 13.1 for some boxes, but not for anything production-related.

As you say, its about context. I didn't encounter any of those installation problems; perhaps they were addressed by the time I burnt my DVD? I see people encountering problems I can't reproduce or don't suffer from and I can't resolve the nvidia driver problems that I have. Maybe its my hardware ... The simultaneous IP connection issue looks interesting. As that page says, some web pages draw from many locations ... 'resource servers' I understand some people call them. At lest now when you start up Firefox it doesn't start up every tab and promptly runs out of connections! But even so I've not encountered that bug. Perhaps there are some deeper issues. Perhaps as well Configuration is Everything :-) But 'leading edge' and 'production' should not be used in the same context. -- The problem with comforting illusions is that someone else ends up footing the bill for your comfort. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2014 02:59 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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As you say, its about context.

I didn't encounter any of those installation problems; perhaps they were addressed by the time I burnt my DVD? That's another context item, I only install over the network, never from physical media.

Good point. I keep a distribution DVD around for other purposes such as the 'rescue mode'. Does the network installation disk have that? I tried an upgrade once using that method. It worked OK. No complaints. But IIR the DVD approach ends up offering you the opportunity to connect to the update repository towards the end of the installation so does it make any difference? Either you download everything to the DVD or you download everything from the network at install time.

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The simultaneous IP connection issue looks interesting. As that page says, some web pages draw from many locations ... 'resource servers' I understand some people call them. At lest now when you start up Firefox it doesn't start up every tab and promptly runs out of connections! But even so I've not encountered that bug.

You would need an environment where ICMP redirects are issued. It's nothing special, but perhaps somewhat unusual.

As you say ... Given the right context ... Anything is possible. Having to reproduce and deal with fringe cases -- all of them -- can put quite a strain on developers and integrators. Especially FOSS types that don't have the big budget for it. -- If people were really trying to just reduce risk, they would be running on OpenBSD rather than windows. So what we are generally trying to do is not really Risk Assessment, but Risk Justification. We don't want to reduce risk so much as justify why we are allowing our assets to be so exposed. -- Bill Royds, 16th September 2005 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 06/15/2014 02:59 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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As you say, its about context.

I didn't encounter any of those installation problems; perhaps they were addressed by the time I burnt my DVD? That's another context item, I only install over the network, never from physical media.

Good point. I keep a distribution DVD around for other purposes such as the 'rescue mode'. Does the network installation disk have that?

Yes, there is a "Rescue system" option.

But IIR the DVD approach ends up offering you the opportunity to connect to the update repository towards the end of the installation so does it make any difference?

When I remember, I specify the update repo before I start the installation, but I'm pretty certain the installation process also asks in the end. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.7°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-13 16:02, Tony Alfrey wrote:

I can buy a computer on-line and have it delivered to my door in two days. Why can't SuSE manage to offer the same and for 12.X which the website says is still supported?

SUSE does not sell the boxes, that's somebody else that does the selling. The boxes may have their own, separate, support deals, which AFAIK only covers basic installation. I believe there is a German box, and another company doing the English version, which the last time I looked had outdated boxes. And they don't ship to every country. I remember a period when USA was not included, dunno if it is now. It would be easier you find a magazine that includes the DVD for free. The support being given by SUSE means basically that they update the packages which you then download via internet, so you'd better get your Internet problem sorted out. If you have problems, you ask us, not them. And we don't get paid :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)