Anders Johansson pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Friday 20 June 2008 20:29:15 Ken Schneider wrote:

...

1. How do you add apps to the taskbar in KDE4? I tried dragging but as soon as you click on the menu entry it launches. I tried to right click on the menu entry to get the popup that was in use in 3.x but that only launches the app as well. If I right click on the taskbar I only have the option of adding a widget ( whoopee ).

Dragging from the menu works perfectly in 4.1 beta. Maybe you should try that instead

Perhaps in the 4.1 beta it does, but that isn't the version that is on the 11.0 DVD install. Added note to subject line.

...

If this is the future of 4.x trash can it and go back to improving 3.x cause 4.x sucks!

and maybe you should look at the future of kde before saying it sucks - it is available for your perusal

When you remove a lot of the configuration options that were in the previous version it just plain sucks! Only the future will tell. If the config options are added back in then good otherwise it SUCKS! My opinion.

Anders

-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 03:20:14PM -0400, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

Anders Johansson pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

...

1. How do you add apps to the taskbar in KDE4? I tried dragging but as soon as you click on the menu entry it launches. I tried to right click on the menu entry to get the popup that was in use in 3.x but that only launches the app as well. If I right click on the taskbar I only have the option of adding a widget ( whoopee ). Dragging from the menu works perfectly in 4.1 beta. Maybe you should try

On Friday 20 June 2008 20:29:15 Ken Schneider wrote: that instead Perhaps in the 4.1 beta it does, but that isn't the version that is on the 11.0 DVD install. Added note to subject line.

...

...

If this is the future of 4.x trash can it and go back to improving 3.x cause 4.x sucks! and maybe you should look at the future of kde before saying it sucks - it is available for your perusal When you remove a lot of the configuration options that were in the previous version it just plain sucks! Only the future will tell. If the config options are added back in then good otherwise it SUCKS! My opinion.

The KE 4 FAQ says that they were not intentionally removed, they were just not added back yet.

In other words, as we said for MONTHS, KDE 4 is incomplete and NOT READY, Did you listen?? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Ciao, Marcus

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 06:30:37 Matt Archer wrote:

...

In other words, as we said for MONTHS, KDE 4 is incomplete and NOT READY,

Did you listen??

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Hi Aaron,

Not ready for what? 10.3 included a KDE4 alpha, but nobody complained about that.

It's not as if KDE4 is the only choice available, KDE 3.5.9 is there, and the help text on the window manager selection screen clearly says it's less mature

Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Then why are we seeing this rash of KDE4 problems? Is it perhaps because the warning was no where near explicit enough, suckering all kinds of first time users into installing KDE4? Way to make a good impression! People were begging for more explicit warnings, demanding the word Beta or even Alpha be included. Suse people on this list wer the only ones vociferously opposing this. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:49:35 John Andersen wrote:

...

Then why are we seeing this rash of KDE4 problems?

Is it perhaps because the warning was no where near explicit enough, suckering all kinds of first time users into installing KDE4?

I haven't actually seen an email about kde4 from a first time user.

This was discussed for MONTHS. So, then, either you are as blind as a bat, or you're lying. Which is it?

These threads have been started by long time users like Ken Schneider

Quit with the insults to our intelligence. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:20:44 Matt Archer wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:49:35 John Andersen wrote:

...

Then why are we seeing this rash of KDE4 problems?

Is it perhaps because the warning was no where near explicit enough, suckering all kinds of first time users into installing KDE4? I haven't actually seen an email about kde4 from a first time user. This was discussed for MONTHS.

Yes it was, Aaron, but not among the first time users.

Of course, that's because this month's first-time users weren't subscribed several months ago, so, what's your point exactly?

...

So, then, either you are as blind as a bat, or you're lying.

Neither, I know how to read the questions I'm answering, and the question wasn't "has this been discussed", it was "is it hitting first time users"

If it's hitting someone as experienced as Ken Schnieder.... So you're betting that Ken Schnieder makes WORSE installation decisions than first time users??? Remind me to never loan you any money....

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:40:50 am Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:34:03 Matt Archer wrote:

...

...

Yes it was, Aaron, but not among the first time users.

Of course, that's because this month's first-time users weren't subscribed several months ago, so, what's your point exactly?

I haven't seen any posts about KDE4 from first time users now either

...

...

...

So, then, either you are as blind as a bat, or you're lying.

Neither, I know how to read the questions I'm answering, and the question wasn't "has this been discussed", it was "is it hitting first time users"

If it's hitting someone as experienced as Ken Schnieder....

So you're betting that Ken Schnieder makes WORSE installation decisions than first time users???

It's a fairly safe bet. Experienced users are far more likely to go for the "hey this looks interesting, let's see what this looks like" kind of install

His experience also means that he's set in the ways of KDE3 and explicitly looks for functionality that used to be there

A new user will take it for what it is, and the core functionality is there. I grant you it's not as feature rich as KDE3, but it has all the core parts that a first time user will need.

So, the thinking is: They are dumb newbies. They don't know any better and won't know the difference, That means we can give them less. Nice ! You mentioned previously in this thread that the 10.3 users didn't complain. Maybe, maybe not, but they sure asked a lot of questions. I being one of them, It was you that told me how to get rid of all of KDE4, of which the method didn't work very well. KDE4 as it was supplied for 10.3 was a horror. It interfered with KDE3 and had none of my favorite functionality of KDE3. Whenever you "kdesu"ed to an app it would bring up the KDE4 app which didn't work properly. Yes I know it was a early alpha or something and I know it has probably improved tremendously, but at the time it was just to much of a hassle, so I got rid of it. I have patience, When I get around to installing 11,0 in about a month or so, I will be using KDE 3. In 6 months or so maybe I will try KDE4 to see if it has finally attained the functionality that KDE 3 has presntly. There is nothing wrong with KDE3. It is a great sophisticated desktop. SuSE should not be in competition with the other distros like kubuntu or fedora. SuSE is what it is because it is known and acclaimed to be a solid easily installed distro. I don't bitch and I don't moan and I understand, but IMHO you folks at SuSE/Novell have acted very unfairly to your user base, especially to the newbie converts. This needn't have been rushed. I sincerely hope it does not rise up and bite you in the proverbial place. Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Anders Johansson wrote: Several statements collected together here:

Well, which core functionality are you missing then? I'm using KDE4 and I haven't found anything crucial missing.

But that can hardly be called a core desktop functionality. If you really need it, KDE3 konsole is still around and can be used from the KDE4 desktop

KDE4 is not just a rewrite, it's also a cleanup, and features that go unrequested may be ignored

A cleanup, starting from ground zero? Who gets to define what "core desktop" features are? Why would thing used heavily and every day be stripped out, and replaced with unproven things? (or nothing). Why not just recompile everything making the minimal amount of changes to get it to run in the new infrastructure? Why Gnome-ify KDE? Why toss out so much and wait for bitching to decide if you will add it back in? (And then act so defensive when bitching arrives?) Why hide Kong Filemanager mode so deep? What possible reason would there be to rewrite Konsole? -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Pete Connolly wrote:

Why is this discussion not on a KDE development list? The original complaint was that the wording on the installation regarding desktop choice was poor.

That was the original complaint as regards Opensuse. It has now gone beyond that if you ave been following the thread. We are now told that anything missing from KDE4 must be asked for on Novell's bug reporting system. So the discussion still belongs here. We are also being told that KDE3 is dead even before KDE4 is expected to be complete, and KDE3 will be dropped from Opensuse 11.1. We are told we have to file a bug report on that too. (How do you file a bug report on a future action?). It still belongs on this list. We are opensuse users. Why can't we discuss the contents of Opensuse here? -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Florian Schäfer wrote:

...

It still belongs on this list. We are opensuse users. Why can't we discuss the contents of Opensuse here?

Because the way it is discussed here is really annoying!

Well, if the suse personnel would stop being assholes, and adjust THEIR attitude, then maybe the discussion wouldn't be so annoying. But until they do, the heat will continue to be turned up higher and higher and higher. Because frankly..WE are being nice. The business community won't bother writing on the list -- they'll just move to a new vendor, and let SUSE's people starve. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:12:45 -0400, Aaron wrote:

...

Well, if the suse personnel would stop being assholes, and [...] Because frankly..WE are being nice.

I'd call that a contradiction in terms :-) Like Aaron and politeness.

Hmmm, Phillip, which of the following would you classify as nice, and which would you classify as "mean" 1: Advise you where you're fucking up, so that you can correct your errors. 2: Watching you screw up, and not saying anything, so as to just leave you to fail and go out of business. I know..it's an incredibly difficult riddle, but a smart guy like you should be able to figure it out.

Philipp

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Pete Connolly wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Pete Connolly wrote:

...

Why is this discussion not on a KDE development list? The original complaint was that the wording on the installation regarding desktop choice was poor.

That was the original complaint as regards Opensuse. It has now gone beyond that if you ave been following the thread.

Of course I've been following the thread. The thread has gone way beyond the remit of this list and is heading towards the killfile stage.

...

We are now told that anything missing from KDE4 must be asked for on Novell's bug reporting system. So the discussion still belongs here.

Can someone just file bugs somewhere saying what is missing? I don't care if it's Novell's bugzilla or the KDE one, just do something constructive instead of spending hours writing "KDE4 is crap". Come on, 95% of this KDE4 discussion is hot air, rants and insults against the very developers that spend their time producing _free_ software the we can all use - think what could be done in that time.

...

We are also being told that KDE3 is dead even before KDE4 is expected to be complete, and KDE3 will be dropped from Opensuse 11.1. We are told we have to file a bug report on that too. (How do you file a bug report on a future action?).

As easily as you file a bug against a current application. Just try.

...

It still belongs on this list. We are opensuse users. Why can't we discuss the contents of Opensuse here?

I'm not saying you can't discuss this there, I'm just saying it's not the best place to do so. KDE4 isn't a purely opensuse 11.0 thing, it just so happens to be the best implementation of KDE4 that's available. And the thanks that the KDE devs in SuSE get for doing such a great job? Nothing. Aaron and others (or maybe they're all Aaron), insult, denigrate and abuse the developers publicly and at great length about missing 'things'.

Wrong. I'm insulting and denigrating the suse people on this list who are clearly lying and have been doing so for half a year now -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Pete Connolly wrote:

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

Several statements collected together here:

...

Well, which core functionality are you missing then? I'm using KDE4 and I haven't found anything crucial missing.

...

But that can hardly be called a core desktop functionality. If you really need it, KDE3 konsole is still around and can be used from the KDE4 desktop

...

KDE4 is not just a rewrite, it's also a cleanup, and features that go unrequested may be ignored

A cleanup, starting from ground zero? Who gets to define what "core desktop" features are? Why would thing used heavily and every day be stripped out, and replaced with unproven things? (or nothing).

Why not just recompile everything making the minimal amount of changes to get it to run in the new infrastructure? Why Gnome-ify KDE?

Why toss out so much and wait for bitching to decide if you will add it back in? (And then act so defensive when bitching arrives?)

Why hide Kong Filemanager mode so deep? What possible reason would there be to rewrite Konsole?

Why is this discussion not on a KDE development list? The original

Because Binner threatened that KDE 3 will be removed from 11.1 unless we all switch and file bug reports for missing stuff that never should have been removed in the first place. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:34:03 Matt Archer wrote:

...

...

Yes it was, Aaron, but not among the first time users. Of course, that's because this month's first-time users weren't subscribed several months ago, so, what's your point exactly?

I haven't seen any posts about KDE4 from first time users now either

...

...

...

So, then, either you are as blind as a bat, or you're lying. Neither, I know how to read the questions I'm answering, and the question wasn't "has this been discussed", it was "is it hitting first time users" If it's hitting someone as experienced as Ken Schnieder....

So you're betting that Ken Schnieder makes WORSE installation decisions than first time users???

It's a fairly safe bet. Experienced users are far more likely to go for the "hey this looks interesting, let's see what this looks like" kind of install

His experience also means that he's set in the ways of KDE3 and explicitly looks for functionality that used to be there]

Because that functionality is what makes KDE the most desirable desktop out there,... even more than the offerings of the commercial vendors like IBM, HP, SUN and SGI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:34:03 am Matt Archer wrote:

...

If it's hitting someone as experienced as Ken Schnieder....

Advice to read mail first is still applicable, Aarcheron.

???

I have no clue who is Mr. Schnieder.

The guy who started the thread. Tell me you're not really that stupid to not recognize the name of who as several postings in this thread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:40:00 pm JB2 wrote:

...

...

... Ken Schnieder.... ... Mr. Schnieder.

Ken has been on this list at *least* since I got on using 7.3

Ken Schneider is the guy that I answered, but someone came in claiming that some Mr. Schnieder is experienced user and has problems. You would be better off if you wouldn't rush to post. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:34:03 am Matt Archer wrote:

...

If it's hitting someone as experienced as Ken Schnieder....

Advice to read mail first is still applicable, Aarcheron. I have no clue who is Mr. Schnieder.

Then search the list archive, and perhaps it will refresh your memory. You're starting to write like a politician. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008, John Andersen wrote:

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 06:30:37 Matt Archer wrote:

...

In other words, as we said for MONTHS, KDE 4 is incomplete and NOT READY,

Did you listen??

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Hi Aaron,

Not ready for what? 10.3 included a KDE4 alpha, but nobody complained about that.

It's not as if KDE4 is the only choice available, KDE 3.5.9 is there, and the help text on the window manager selection screen clearly says it's less mature

Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Then why are we seeing this rash of KDE4 problems?

Is it perhaps because the warning was no where near explicit enough, suckering all kinds of first time users into installing KDE4?

Way to make a good impression!

People were begging for more explicit warnings, demanding the word Beta or even Alpha be included. Suse people on this list wer the only ones vociferously opposing this.

-- ----------JSA---------

I have been saying this for ages the menu for install needs to state very clearly KDE 3.5.x Stable good to go KDE 4.x.x VERY ALPHA/BETA install at your own risk lots missing and faulty Gnome Please yourself but all i ever get i shot down from on high within opensuse the same happened on LWN as well with the same people accusing me of bieng all sorts of idiot for saying KDE 4 IS NOT READY and should NOT BE INCLUDED IN A Distro it probably needs another 9 to 12 months of work before inclusion in a distro it has to be at LEAST as good as the present release of KDE 3.5.x and i mean all the tools ALL the CONFIG options ALL the APPS . I have just got to say I TOLD YOU SO people at suse your reviews will be CRAP and you only have yourselfs to blame there are so many bugs that should have delayed the release for a few weeks it is untrue , You have made your bed you lie in it . Pete (vindicated at last) -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:44:00 Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 06:30:37 Matt Archer wrote:

...

In other words, as we said for MONTHS, KDE 4 is incomplete and NOT READY,

Did you listen??

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Hi Aaron,

Not ready for what? 10.3 included a KDE4 alpha, but nobody complained about that.

It's not as if KDE4 is the only choice available, KDE 3.5.9 is there, and the help text on the window manager selection screen clearly says it's less mature

Anders

Hands up. Only those over 50, male and bored are complaining. Cool beer anyone? L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 10:41:00 John wrote:

Yep I'm over 50 and not complaining but would like to know what suse's stance is on upgrading users of 11.0 to kde 4.1 and 4.1 final when they are released which should be not too far into the future. Or are they simpley going to hang on and release suse 11.1 later?

You would probably do better to ask on the opensuse-factory mailing list. The decision in the end is taken by the project manager. As far as I know it's still under discussion In the mean time, the betas are available in the build service, and the final will be too, regardless of what happens with the online update Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:20:16 Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 04:01:54 am Anders Johansson wrote:

...

You would probably do better to ask on the opensuse-factory mailing list.

Not really, since 11.0 is out now, this is the list for the questions.

Factory would be good for 11.1 version, ie. any questions for the future versions.

In principle, yes, but the factory list is more closely read by developers and project management, so it would stand a higher chance of getting through to the right person But factory is the place for "ongoing development" type questions, and "what do we do about kde 4.1?" qualifies, I think Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 15:49:14 Rajko M. wrote:

The complete question is "what do we do about kde 4.1 in openSUSE 11.0 ?" and it is a border case. How it will be treated depends on reader and his/her current mood ;-) I guess that Beineri can tell us what they intend to do.

Mhm? KDE 4.1 will be the desktop only in openSUSE 11.1 and discussion what to do there respectively what to concentrate on for it has only just started: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-06/msg00040.html Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 10:39:44 pm Bob S wrote: ...

Wow, I hope that you are also considering offering KDE3.5.9. You know, just in case KDE4.1 still doesn't have the functionality that KDE3 has.

It will be there. There are serious users of KDE that can't switch back and fort at will, so KDE3 will be present for some time. The only thing that is changed now is that KDE3 does not get new features, but only bug fixes. All new features go to KDE4. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 10:39:44 pm Bob S wrote: ...

...

Wow, I hope that you are also considering offering KDE3.5.9. You know, just in case KDE4.1 still doesn't have the functionality that KDE3 has.

It will be there. There are serious users of KDE that can't switch back and fort at will, so KDE3 will be present for some time. The only thing that is changed now is that KDE3 does not get new features, but only bug fixes. All new features go to KDE4.

-- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands.

I just gotta reply to this one , I have said already KDE4 should be labeled as Alpha or at best Pre Beta but also i have tried the full release of 11.0 now it is so full of holes and failures are you sure it is not a pre RC beta been renamed . Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008 05:39:44 Bob S wrote:

Wow, I hope that you are also considering offering KDE3.5.9.

It will be removed from the distro release (and continue to be only available as build service project) some time. This may happen with openSUSE 11.1. As long as users give us not concrete feedback but rather "KDE4 is not KDE3!" (which will stay true forever) and ambigious "it's incomplete" it's likely. Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 07:24:18 -0400, Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Translation: a big "Fuck you, lusers" from Steve Binner.

Aaron, I guess it's high time to register with a new alias. You should know by now that insulting users is the quickest way to get banned. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:15:15 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

And Steve Binner wasn't being insulting????

It's Stephan, not Steven. You don't even seem to care for the names the people you discuss with. And unless there was some hidden secret code in that mail, I didn't notice anything like it. That is, unless you call "people giving no concrete feedback" an insult. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 12:15:15 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

...

And Steve Binner wasn't being insulting????

It's Stephan, not Steven.

Then why does he sign his email that way? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:18:33 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

So, punish the users for their preference, is that it Steve?

Which part of 'As long as users give us not concrete feedback' didn't you understand? It simply means (like Anders already pointed out) that if users give us specific feedback as to which functionality is missing or which functionality doesn't work as expected and report that via bugzilla so it can be tracked, the chances are much higher that either KDE3 stays a bit longer or that KDE4 gets the features you want. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:11:02 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

OpenSuse refused to take the concrete feedback provided months ago about the inclusion, promotion, and clear favoring of KDE4

Because of feedback on opensuse-factory, which was and will be the place to discuss versions currently under development (and which is therefore the list where you'll reach quite a few developers), the dialog was changed to include KDE 3.5 and give no preselection. So you can't say Novell/SuSE doesn't listen.

Just how quickly do you suppose a but report would be summarily closed with "wont fix" if it stated:

Stephan Binner stated on OpenSuse mailing list regarding KDE3: "It will be removed from the distro release (and continue to be only available as build service project) some time. This may happen with openSUSE 11.1." This is a mistake, and premature as KDE4 is incomplete.

Of cause such a bug would be closed immediately. Note that I wrote *specific feedback* and the above is general hand waving. Be specific, tell the developers which feature you think is missing or is not working as you expect and I'd say your chances are rather good that you'll get responses other then a quick closing of the bug. Philipp PS: This is my last mail on this topic as the discussion seems to lead nowhere. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:18:33 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

So, punish the users for their preference, is that it Steve?

Which part of 'As long as users give us not concrete feedback' didn't you understand?

In the U.S., we have this saying: Don't "fix" what ain't broken to begin with.

It simply means (like Anders already pointed out) that if users give us specific feedback as to which functionality is missing or which functionality doesn't work as expected and report that via bugzilla so it can be tracked, the chances are much higher that either KDE3 stays a bit longer or that KDE4 gets the features you want.

That's a bunch of nonsense. There's no reason that a shift from qt2 to qt4 would require throwing out the qt2 code, and starting from scratch. You update the function calls and object types as needed, and move on.

Philipp

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:07:37 -0400, Matt Archer wrote:

...

There's no reason that a shift from qt2 to qt4 would require throwing out the qt2 code, and starting from scratch.

This only shows that you don't really know what you're talking about. First of all, it's qt3 and qt4 we are talking about and the differences are rather huge.

Bullshit. I've got the documentation for both from Trolltech in my posession, and the EXPOSED changes are less than 5% (which is to say, the public interfaces... object names and associated functions.

So huge that it makes sense for a project like KDE to take the opportunity and rather than adapt old code rewrite it. And while doing that, also get rid of things nobody really needed like artsd.

And apparently, everything that people do like.... like a general purpose Konqueror -- which made COMPLETE sense, and replacing it with a befuddled Konqueror and it's retarded fraternal twin, Dolphin.

Philipp

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:18:33 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

So, punish the users for their preference, is that it Steve?

Which part of 'As long as users give us not concrete feedback' didn't you understand?

It simply means (like Anders already pointed out) that if users give us specific feedback as to which functionality is missing or which functionality doesn't work as expected and report that via bugzilla so it can be tracked, the chances are much higher that either KDE3 stays a bit longer or that KDE4 gets the features you want.

That's a crock, and you know it. Why should users have to go out specifically look for every single functionality of KDE 3.5 to see if it still exists. The devs not only have the 3.5 code...they're also proficient at READING IT... they already know what 3.5 can do and can't do. Just because I know C++ doesn't mean I can just pick up the code from a project like KDE and figure out what is going on where, without taking a significant period of time to study it -- which my employers does NOT pay me to do. And when I'm off work, I don't have the time to sort through that much code just to make sure that the devs are doing what they should have been doing in the first place.

Philipp

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

primm wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 09:44:00 Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 06:30:37 Matt Archer wrote:

...

In other words, as we said for MONTHS, KDE 4 is incomplete and NOT READY,

Did you listen??

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo Hi Aaron,

Not ready for what? 10.3 included a KDE4 alpha, but nobody complained about that.

It's not as if KDE4 is the only choice available, KDE 3.5.9 is there, and the help text on the window manager selection screen clearly says it's less mature

Anders

Hands up. Only those over 50, male and bored are complaining. Cool beer anyone?

I'm 42. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Is there some kind of weird German nationalism driving this or what?

I would doubt it. If anything, I would suspect that Novell made the decision that Gnome is their future some time ago. Recall that Novell purchased Ximian (Gnome) in August of 2003. This was "before" they purchased SuSE. The handwriting's been on the wall for years. Remember when SuSE offered KDE before Gnome on the installation screen? Recall the bruhaha when Novell moved Gnome into first place? I'm sure that some wags are thinking that offering KDE 4.0 as "finished" will encourage new users to use Gnome after being burned by the KDE monster. All that being said, I think Novell has been doing a good job. KDE is still a choice, after all. Things could be worse... Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 20 June 2008 03:20:14 pm Ken Schneider wrote:

Anders Johansson pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

Dragging from the menu works perfectly in 4.1 beta. Maybe you should try that instead

When you remove a lot of the configuration options that were in the previous version it just plain sucks! Only the future will tell. If the config options are added back in then good otherwise it SUCKS! My opinion.

So does that really mean that there is no way to add an icon on the taskbar? That sounds really impossible. I've spent two hours yesterday trying to figure how to do that with no luck, but I though maybe it's just well hidden somewhere. Right click now opens the applications in the menu, which doesn't sound right, left click is enough. Taskbar is not confugurable at all, the only thing to change is the size, no transparency/hiding... And quite honestly is it only me thinking that widgets for every icons on the desktop is not very good idea? We don't use resize/move/configure for most of the icons on the desktop so often anyways. Those sound like a very good thing for Clock/News/Slideshow things... Resizing the icons on the desktop with usual thing from configure desktop doesn't work anymore, neither resizing from the widget works for all icons. No different timezones (simultaneously) in clock. "Run" seems to be missing from the menu (luckily Alt + F2 still works) No right click -> safely remove on the usb disk from my computer? The whole menu just got replaced with couple of things. The search on the top of the classical menu, which was soooo good is gone. yeah, I had a bad night too :-) I liked the dolphin, though Sergey -- Sergey Mkrtchyan, PhD Student @ Department of Physics & Astronomy, Faculty of Science, University of Waterloo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sergey Mkrtchyan pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Friday 20 June 2008 03:20:14 pm Ken Schneider wrote:

...

...

Dragging from the menu works perfectly in 4.1 beta. Maybe you should try that instead When you remove a lot of the configuration options that were in the

Anders Johansson pecked at the keyboard and wrote: previous version it just plain sucks! Only the future will tell. If the config options are added back in then good otherwise it SUCKS! My opinion.

So does that really mean that there is no way to add an icon on the taskbar? That sounds really impossible. I've spent two hours yesterday trying to figure how to do that with no luck, but I though maybe it's just well hidden somewhere.

Right click now opens the applications in the menu, which doesn't sound right, left click is enough.

Taskbar is not confugurable at all, the only thing to change is the size, no transparency/hiding...

And quite honestly is it only me thinking that widgets for every icons on the desktop is not very good idea? We don't use resize/move/configure for most of the icons on the desktop so often anyways. Those sound like a very good thing for Clock/News/Slideshow things...

Resizing the icons on the desktop with usual thing from configure desktop doesn't work anymore, neither resizing from the widget works for all icons.

No different timezones (simultaneously) in clock.

"Run" seems to be missing from the menu (luckily Alt + F2 still works)

No right click -> safely remove on the usb disk from my computer? The whole menu just got replaced with couple of things.

The search on the top of the classical menu, which was soooo good is gone.

yeah, I had a bad night too :-)

I liked the dolphin, though

Sergey

Not ready for prime time is all I can say. In the process of removing 4.x and installing KDE 3. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 00:17:35 Kevin Donnelly wrote:

On Friday 20 June 2008 20:03, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Dragging from the menu works perfectly in 4.1 beta. Maybe you should try that instead.

Where exactly is this located? I still haven't found anything higher than 4.0.82.

That is the 4.1 beta. You never include letters in version names in rpm, because rpm has trouble comparing letters to numbers, so it always causes problems. So traditionally, betas have been called something.81, .82 etc. and release candidates are numbered .91, .92 and so on Try it, I've been using the betas for a while now, and while the OBS repos can sometimes break (after all, it is still in development), the devels are very quick to answer and fix problems Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 05:53:33 Matt Archer wrote:

...

It's not like we haven't been telling that to the SUSE people on this list for several MONTHS.

If you think that something has been going wrong all time maybe you should start thinking about if this list is/was the right place for it and if there is something more constructive like Bugzilla than trolling. ;-)

Bye, Steve

"If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting." - Richard Eberling Don Henson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider wrote:

Donald D Henson pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

Stephan Binner wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 05:53:33 Matt Archer wrote:

...

It's not like we haven't been telling that to the SUSE people on this list for several MONTHS.

If you think that something has been going wrong all time maybe you should start thinking about if this list is/was the right place for it and if there is something more constructive like Bugzilla than trolling. ;-)

Bye, Steve

"If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting." - Richard Eberling

Don Henson

It was never my intention to open a can of worms when I started this thread. I just wanted to vent/rant a little about KDE 4. It should never have been presented on the main desktop selection screen as it gives the user a false sense of being mature enough for everyday use. Telling someone to install 4.1 afterward is pointless as new users won't know anything about it and will be left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Ken.. it needed to be said. And from a new source.

Having used SuSE/openSUSE for over ten years I have come to expect a certain amount of quality. Had the simple decision been made to have the KDE4 choice moved to the "other" selection screen during install that quality would exist with 11.0. Don't ever discount the power of word of mouth to make or destroy a product. Someone mentioned good product reviews. Let's see what happens when more of them are in with regards to KDE4 being installed from the start.

KDE4 is coming along nicely but doesn't deserve front page billing yet as too much is still missing. And no I don't have the time to open 10's of bugzilla reports for all of the missing parts.

Which is PRECISELY what a couple dozen people tried to get across to the SUSE Holier-than-thous for several months, who always replied with some variation of some "don't you worry your pretty little head about it" condescending CRAP. Well, they shit in their bed...now they're stuck laying in it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:01:40 am Ken Schneider wrote:

...

It was never my intention to open a can of worms when I started this thread. I just wanted to vent/rant a little about KDE 4. It should never have been presented on the main desktop selection screen as it gives the user a false sense of being mature enough for everyday use. Telling someone to install 4.1 afterward is pointless as new users won't know anything about it and will be left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Ken, everyone complaining is comparing KDE4 to KDE3. It is not fair to compare well developed stuff, after years of development, with new kid in town. I see only guys with hidden agenda, or naive to fall in their net, to complain. I guess you are the second category.

That's preposterous. KDE4 is not "a New Kid in town." KDE4 is billed as the new "major version of the K Desktop Environment." Its the same product in the developer's eyes. Therefore, we have a proper expectation that it should include everything its predecessor did. KDE4, at this point is a major retrograde step. Where have you EVER heard of a release 4 of anything being less complete than a release 3?

KDE guys follow their convention where base of the name is KDE with appended major version number and trolls are misusing this systematically. No one is talking about features, versions, just general KDE4, like that is all the same.

It is all the same product. Go read the KDE website.

If they would be interested in advancement, they will be more detailed, but they are not. The KDE naming is misused to deter new users from KDE4 which will reduce number of people filling bug reports, asking for features, and that will slow down current rush development.

Why should we have to ask for features that were there in 3.5? When the next kernel comes out should we expect it to have dropped multi-user support, serial line support, and keyboard interfaces and still be billed as the next major release? And if it did, should we busily run around and fill out bug reports telling the devs to put back in all the stuff they intentionally stripped out?

I don't think that is just some annoying guy crusade. Whoever will benefit from delaying KDE4 development is behind this.

And not that you've donned the tin foil hat, who does your conspiracy theory suggest might benefit from delaying KDE4?

Apropos KDE4, it is usable. It has all basic functions of the desktop and many more are in place.

If we wanted basic functions, we would be running Xfce4. We wanted all the rich functionality that kde3 had.

You can't mark it as alpha, beta, as number of functions over what is expected for basic desktop does not determine software status.

Yes you can. When you go into your product, strip OUT functions and then bill it as a the next major release of the product you have taken a retrograde step.

Just check existing, and if you see something missing add your report. That will help you and developers. They will see feature request, and adjust priorities in porting functionality, and you will get feature sooner.

How bout adding back in all the code the gutted? How about starting with what they HAD and improving from there? The reference model is right there for them. KDE4.2 might be a suitable replacement for KDE3.5. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:01:40 am Ken Schneider wrote:

...

It was never my intention to open a can of worms when I started this thread. I just wanted to vent/rant a little about KDE 4. It should never have been presented on the main desktop selection screen as it gives the user a false sense of being mature enough for everyday use. Telling someone to install 4.1 afterward is pointless as new users won't know anything about it and will be left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Ken, everyone complaining is comparing KDE4 to KDE3. It is not fair to compare well developed stuff,

Yes, it is fair when KDE 4 is being presented as an upgrade and replacement for KDE 3.

after years of development, with new kid in town. I see only guys with hidden agenda, or naive to fall in their net, to complain. I guess you are the second category.

B**s***. Do you serve grape juice and call it wine? Why not? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008 03:31:24 Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

If anything, it looks like SUSE is trying to kill KDE.

This doesn't become more true with the amount of fake identities you use to post here ;-)... Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

You're answering questions like a politician..which is to say, your (non-)answers amount to "hey, look, a bunny rabbit!"

It was actually "Hey look.. another Aaron!" There are no bunny rabbits.. just Aarons multiplying like bunny rabbits. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008 10:32:29 Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

...

This doesn't become more true with the amount of fake identities you use to post here ;-)... Throwing around goofy assertions to avoid answering the question.

Goofy? How many trolls on this list have been posting from the same IP? Matt Archer Raskolnikov Tkachuk Evans Garde Washington Irving and I do not keep mails for longer than 30 days. Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 08:01:40 am Ken Schneider wrote:

...

It was never my intention to open a can of worms when I started this thread. I just wanted to vent/rant a little about KDE 4. It should never have been presented on the main desktop selection screen as it gives the user a false sense of being mature enough for everyday use. Telling someone to install 4.1 afterward is pointless as new users won't know anything about it and will be left with a bad taste in their mouth.

Ken, everyone complaining is comparing KDE4 to KDE3. It is not fair to compare well developed stuff, after years of development, with new kid in town. I see only guys with hidden agenda, or naive to fall in their net, to complain. I guess you are the second category.

Judging by the comments by the suse people, it's quite plain that there's an agenda to dump KDE 3 while KDE 4 is still under-developed and little more than a clumsy child.

It is classic misuse of established rule, in this case, that same name software with bigger version number is development of that software with more functionality.

No..it's a classic misuse of established rule to label as anything other than ALPHA something which is an incomplete, supposed successor of a widely-used and understood suite of code. Especially when the first prior code was thrown out completely and re-written from scratch.

KDE guys follow their convention where base of the name is KDE with appended major version number and trolls are misusing this systematically. No one is

Or more accurately, Suse and KDE are misusing a well-understood convention by failing to label incomplete code as Alpha.

talking about features, versions, just general KDE4, like that is all the same. If they would be interested in advancement, they will be more detailed, but they are not. The KDE naming is misused to deter new users from KDE4 which will reduce number of people filling bug reports, asking for features, and that will slow down current rush development.

I don't think that is just some annoying guy crusade. Whoever will benefit from delaying KDE4 development is behind this.

NOBODY is trying to "delay KDE 4 development" What I and others are telling you is simple -- that it's not developed enough, and WE WANT MORE DEVELOPMENT of KDE 4 before you get to the point of forcing it on the userbase... which ONE of you has already indicated might be as soon as SuSE 11.1. And if that happens, you can pretty much rule out any business where I participate in decision-making receiving a recommendation to switch, or even continue using SUSE.

If it is company, I can understand, it is fight for the market, but if it is another open source group than it is plain stupid to shoot at your forerunner.

The previous two sentances by Rajko are hallucinations... oh, oh, people are complaining about a stupid decision we made, and we don't show any signs of changing our bull-headed ways -- let's label them as trolls and plants from another company. Excellent plan there, Rajko -- ignore the users, and the feedback they're giving you -- just continue doing what has been demonstrated for several months now to utterly piss off your userbase to the point that eventually, they'll all start leaving. Then, where will you be?

Apropos KDE4, it is usable.

So is a go-kart. That doesn't mean I'm going to drive it to work, or even take it on the public roads around town, let alone highways where I do most of my driving.

It has all basic functions of the desktop and many more are in place.

Blah blah blah. Dolphin is a pain, and using Konqueror for filemanagement is now a royal pain, too

You can't mark it as alpha, beta, as number of functions over what is expected for basic desktop does not determine software status. KDE4 has more functionality that many desktops hidden in software repositories, and they are not alpha or beta, unless developer is testing new features.

More handwaving to distract from the heart of the discussion -- Does KDE 4 do what we users want and have reasonable expectations that it should be able to do: a: yes B: NO Thats the ONLY standard, and right now, KDE 4 fails. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

It was never my intention to open a can of worms when I started this thread. I just wanted to vent/rant a little about KDE 4.

Novel offers stable business version of linux and also contributes to bleeding edge free version (aka opensuse). What you get is your choice and your money. I do believe our function when we use an opensource product is to take advantage of a free product (and almost nothing is free in this world) and contribute in any form we can 1. send money in many cases to help the developers to live 2. contribute in development 3. contribute in bug reporting 4. contribute with the documentation 5. help to spread the product. If you find something you do not like or is missing, it is nothing wrong to do a bug report or communicate to the developers or even send it to a mail list like this one. Example 1: I do not like the menu because of.... and I would prefer this other alternative. Example 2: I miss this feature that was in the previous version. And always THANKS the developers and people involved in the product. The spend zillions of hours trying to make something for you to use. I have read more than 100 messages in this thread and I believe less than 5 are worth it. Why instead of all this time writing rubbish users do not spend the time helping to solve problems or given suggestions to the team. With this approach all us will benefit. Enough! ..and have all a good weekend -=terry(Denver)=- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 05:53:33 Matt Archer wrote:

...

It's not like we haven't been telling that to the SUSE people on this list for several MONTHS.

If you think that something has been going wrong all time maybe you should start thinking about if this list is/was the right place for it and if there is something more constructive like Bugzilla than trolling. ;-)

Are you always a completely obtuse jerk, or only on the internet. And how does writing Bugzilla entries for functionality which the devs already know is missing change anything? Are you telling us that if it's not in Bugzilla, that your brains are completely incapable of exercising common sense???? Because that's what it sounds like you're telling us. Are you sure you're cut out for this work -- that without someone holding your hand, you can't make the proper decision.... Un-fucking-believable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Steve Jeppesen wrote:

wtf! Why do you keep coming back like a stray cat? Who keeps feeding Aaron?

I can see why some are disappointed in KDE4, but if you look beneath the surface, there's a lot of potential there. Every new system has birthing pains -- some of us are more resistant to them than others. I updated a 10.3 workstation to 11.0/KDE4 on Thursday, when it first became available, and had some disappointments. I couldn't install and run Amarok, for example, so no way to import my server music library in a familiar application. But I kept going. Installed a brand new server yesterday (two 750GB drives) and set it up the way I'd always wished I'd had disk space for, and most things worked. But not all. I spent until 2am trying to get the server talking with my Windows and Linux workstations, and eventually got there. But KDE4 was still frustrating. I finally broke down and removed KDE4 from both machines, and installed KDE3. Somewhere I'd heard that the two aren't compatible, and I wouldn't be able to switch, so I changed over completely. Got things working the way I wanted. Then I found out that I CAN have both, and switch sessions at will. So I reinstalled KDE4 on both machines, and then UPDATED. There were post-release fixes that I didn't expect already. And the final result is, I'm able to do whatever I want with both machines, in KDE4. And the new GUI really IS slick. I'm impressed. And I anticipate that by doing an online update from time to time, it will only get better. I doubt that I'll need to return to KDE3 to do anything I really need to do, but if that DOES become necessary, all I'll need to do is log off, and start a new session. That's ordinarily pretty painless. The only remaining issue for me is that authentication takes forever. Logging on takes a couple of minutes (on the workstation, which was upgraded -- not on the server, which was a new install). Starting YaST or a root console (or SU) takes a couple of minutes (literally). If anyone has any ideas what I can do about that, I'd appreciate it. I'll probably put up with it for a while, then do a new installation on the workstation that preserves my original /home, but I truly hope it doesn't come to that. If I'd only done the update, I'd be pretty upset with both 11.0 and KDE4. But since it's working great on the server, I know the problem is somewhere in my installation, and not inherent to the new OS or GUI. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:34:45 Anders Johansson wrote:

On Saturday 21 June 2008 20:31:31 Jerry Houston wrote:

...

The only remaining issue for me is that authentication takes forever. Logging on takes a couple of minutes (on the workstation, which was upgraded -- not on the server, which was a new install). Starting YaST or a root console (or SU) takes a couple of minutes (literally). If anyone has any ideas what I can do about that, I'd appreciate it.

What do you use to authenticate? LDAP? kerberos? AD?

If it's anything related to networking, could you try disabling IPv6? Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

What do you use to authenticate? LDAP? kerberos? AD?

Ah, that's probably my problem. When I open the users and groups administration module, I see that I have NIS, LDAP and Kerberos configured. It's also a member of a Samba domain (in place for our Windows workstations), which may be a mistake, however smb user authentication is disabled. I don't think I enabled all of those intentionally -- I just did a new installation of the server, and haven't got things quite sorted out yet. For example, my Windows laptop can see the smb shares, but can't join the domain. I'm guessing I need to turn on smb user authentication in order to get that working. I would have figured that the first authentication method that works would be sufficient. Do you think the multiple authentication sources are what's causing my problem? What would you suggest I try? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

Well, the first step would be to remove anything that isn't actually in use on your network.

Indeed. When I let the NIS client restart, it couldn't find an NIS server. (The old server was set up that way, and having updated the workstation, it still expected it to be there.) I've installed the NIS server on the machine where it's expecting it, and I suspect I'll soon have the problem solved. Thanks for your input! It appears to have pointed out the problem. Indeed, it would have waited quite a while for the NIS server that wasn't there, then gone with Plan B. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Stephan Binner wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 05:53:33 Matt Archer wrote:

...

It's not like we haven't been telling that to the SUSE people on this list for several MONTHS.

If you think that something has been going wrong all time maybe you should start thinking about if this list is/was the right place for it and if there is something more constructive like Bugzilla than trolling. ;-)

If a user list where major decisionmakers is not a "right place" to comment, then your whole company is going to go down the tubes very quickly.

Stop being a pig-head, and insulting our intelligence.

'Onya! Aaron. The way to go. (So now you've gone Russian, eh? Sigh. Yet another name to add to the Bit Bucket filter.) -- If you don't succeed you run the risk of failure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

...

'Onya! Aaron. The way to go.

(So now you've gone Russian, eh?

Sigh. Yet another name to add to the Bit Bucket filter.)

Haha... at least he keeps our email filtering skills fresh.

(1) I really don't know why he bothers. (2) He must be a real "dumb-ass", using a favourite American expression. Or, "As thick as a brick", used in Australia. (3) Why does he keep changing his name? (4) Go back to (1) Ciao. -- If you don't succeed you run the risk of failure. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John E. Perry wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Clayton wrote:

...

...

'Onya! Aaron. The way to go.

(So now you've gone Russian, eh?

Sigh. Yet another name to add to the Bit Bucket filter.)

Haha... at least he keeps our email filtering skills fresh.

(1) I really don't know why he bothers.

Because he enjoys it.

...

(2) He must be a real "dumb-ass", using a favourite American expression. Or, "As thick as a brick", used in Australia.

Well, actually, to my rather unsophisticated eye, many of his posts are pretty helpful, and sometimes even well-thought-out. But, ...

...

(3) Why does he keep changing his name?

...He always degenerates more or less gradually into an abusive idiot, and eventually gets banned from the list...

...

(4) Go back to (1)

...So he re-subscribes under a new fake name, and starts the process over again.

Although under the Matt Archer and Raskolnikov whatever pseudonyms, he degenerated rather more quickly than usual. I'm surprised Henne has put up with these two ID's as long as he has.

You call it degenerated. I call it using appropriate descriptions of certain mental midgets who infest this list -- unfortunately, more than a few seem to be employed by SUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 June 2008 18:38, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Sigh. Yet another name to add to the Bit Bucket filter.)

76.243.106.37 since at least April 27, 2008. RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008 08:59, Richard wrote:

On Sunday 22 June 2008 9:17:13 am Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Saturday 21 June 2008 18:38, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

Sigh. Yet another name to add to the Bit Bucket filter.)

76.243.106.37 since at least April 27, 2008.

RRS

Randall, thanks for the IP. sure makes filtering easy. Richard

Sure. It's in every header, and to confirm I searched (using KMail) for every message with that string in any header, and all the names were alias for our good buddy Aaron. And now the caveats... We do not know for a fact that this is a static allocation or even one of those essentially permanent DHCP assignments, but it appears to have been stable for a couple of months. Also, I did not try to verify the converse, that no message (seemingly) from Aaron came from a different IP address. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 22 June 2008 12:54, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Randall R Schulz [06-22-08 15:26]:

...

And now the caveats...

We do not know for a fact that this is a static allocation or even one of those essentially permanent DHCP assignments, but it appears to have been stable for a couple of months.

Also, I did not try to verify the converse, that no message (seemingly) from Aaron came from a different IP address.

I did and found none in the last 90 days. I do not have a complete base after 90 days :^(

... -- Patrick Shanahan

For the record, I do not ever blacklist anyone. While it's clear (especially to those who subscribe to the OT list) that Aaron and I disagree strongly on many things, and his manner is more crude than I personally care for or would employ myself (unless I'm alone...), I really don't like even the symbolic stifling of a person represented by "plonking" someone. There are a couple of denizens of the SuSE list realm (_not_ including Aaron) whose posts I find almost completely without redeeming value and whose posts I usually skim but briefly and largely ignore, but their posts all remain in my archive. Censorship, even purely local / personal quasi-censorship rubs me the wrong way. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun June 22 2008 4:14:26 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:

For the record, I do not ever blacklist anyone. While it's clear (especially to those who subscribe to the OT list) that Aaron and I disagree strongly on many things, and his manner is more crude than I personally care for or would employ myself (unless I'm alone...), I really don't like even the symbolic stifling of a person represented by "plonking" someone.

There are a couple of denizens of the SuSE list realm (_not_ including Aaron) whose posts I find almost completely without redeeming value and whose posts I usually skim but briefly and largely ignore, but their posts all remain in my archive.

Censorship, even purely local / personal quasi-censorship rubs me the wrong way.

Randall Schulz

I have to agree. Once we start censorship because we disagree with someone, it is too easy to censor for the sake of censorship. If you don't like what someone says, hit the NEXT button. You never know, the person you summarily delete might be the one that warns you of something you really need to know about. The opposing point of view isn't always wrong even if it is the opposing point of view. There is often enough truth in what the opposing viewpoint suggests to examine ones own views more carefully. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider writes:

Aaron is not censored because of his views, it is because of his profanity and attacking nature.

Correct, see the discussion last October in the archives, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-06-22 at 15:54 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

:0 * ^Received:.*76.243.106.37 /dev/null # -------------------------------------------------------

I do not like devnulling anyone; at worst, I would save to a different folder. But as you are using mutt, I think you can use the score system (man procmailsc). I'm not sure how to use it, though; I would like to see practical examples. Also programs like Pine have a score system (which I haven't tried, either), so surely mutt has it too. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIYCYBtTMYHG2NR9URArk6AJ9BgV0JXqoMJbzTuDjwy43At0ZH/QCfWpkn hiOKCs1UsWPdW7BV1K0s6RA= =DNXJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:25:47 -0400 Raskolnikov Tkachuk wrote:

Stop being a pig-head, and insulting our intelligence.

better yet, stop rejoining this list would ya? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org