jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 17:31, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

...

Hi all,

I'd like to have a code of conduct or anti-harassment policy at our conference, see for reasons my latest blog at http://blog.jospoortvliet.com

I made a draft: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Code_of_Conduct

Please, any input is more than welcome! But read before replying, there is a FAQ already so don't ask what is answered there ;-)

it's pretty difficult to define harassement, for example french inability to use neutral gender makes discussion of should some words been set male or female.

On the same subject, what cloth must we wear? in some places or countries go from nude to completely covered, with any of them forgiven when other are mandatories, from nude camps to publicly wearing niquab, and people being fired becaude coming with bermuda and no tie.

not to say we don't have to think about this, but setting rules is very difficult, specially if you want rules that can be used.

Sometimes this makes people go for the lowest common denominator, which is usually even worse. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 09 May 2011 18:27:45 jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 17:31, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

...

Hi all,

I'd like to have a code of conduct or anti-harassment policy at our conference, see for reasons my latest blog at http://blog.jospoortvliet.com

I made a draft: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Code_of_Conduct

Please, any input is more than welcome! But read before replying, there is a FAQ already so don't ask what is answered there ;-)

it's pretty difficult to define harassement, for example french inability to use neutral gender makes discussion of should some words been set male or female.

On the same subject, what cloth must we wear? in some places or countries go from nude to completely covered, with any of them forgiven when other are mandatories, from nude camps to publicly wearing niquab, and people being fired becaude coming with bermuda and no tie.

not to say we don't have to think about this, but setting rules is very difficult, specially if you want rules that can be used.

Didn't I ask to read the FAQ? ;-) The rules are intentionally imprecise. This is NOT a mathematical endeavour no matter how much we would like it to be. Harassment and offence is mostly defined by those harassed and offended. Yes, that goes against the "but you can define how the world is" philosphy a good hacker should have and opens the floor for endless discussion. Believe me (see my blog) I very much feel the pain. But the social reality simply is different. Which is why I put in the FAQ mentioning freedom of speech, how we'll judge, why you can really be yourself and why it is needed. If you have specific questions or comments on any of those, please let me know. General (and obvious) comments as feedback on how difficult it is to define harassment etc are slightly less useful. Sorry to slam down on you, my friend, but without being rude I have to tell you how it is. If only to show it is possible ;-) Cheers, Jos

jdd

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 07:20:12PM +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 19:02, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

...

Didn't I ask to read the FAQ? ;-)

I did, I even read the links (not up to the end... too long)

...

Which is why I put in the FAQ mentioning freedom of speech,

is that only speech is involved?

Visuals also could be involved. Physical activity as well.

...

General (and obvious) comments as feedback on how difficult it is to define harassment etc are slightly less useful.

it's an invitation to be more precise. An imprecise document is *worst* than anything.

Not true.

I beg there is a law where the conference is done, so respecting the law is of course mandatory. If we add some rules, it's to be more precise?

No. Again, this is to create an environment where harassment is not welcome, and if it happens, a consequence for that action happening. That's all.

did you really see the case of one people harassing one other people in public during OSC?

It has happened numerous times at other open source conferences, so there's nothing to stop it from happening here unless we specifically let everyone know that it will not be tolerated at all. Which this document is trying to do. If you feel the above posting does not properly address this issue, how do you propose it be changed to do so in a manner in which you would feel acceptable? thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:04:09PM +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 19:33, Greg KH a écrit :

...

It has happened numerous times at other open source conferences, so there's nothing to stop it from happening here unless we specifically let everyone know that it will not be tolerated at all.

Which this document is trying to do.

If you feel the above posting does not properly address this issue, how do you propose it be changed to do so in a manner in which you would feel acceptable?

seek what happened, looks like to know a lot about them (good!), and give some clue of what action could be done to prevent it. Who will say "stop", who will enforce it? stopping such thing needs autority and force.

So you are saying that we should not post anything and just hope to address it _after_ the fact? That's not good. This statement sets the tone for everyone that harassment will not be tolerated at all, and if it happens, explicit rules for what will happen. How is that not acceptable? Please re-read what has been posted, and if you have suggestions as to make it more explicit to state this, then please let Jos know. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:36:14PM +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 20:13, Greg KH a écrit :

...

So you are saying that we should not post anything and just hope to address it _after_ the fact? That's not good.

not at all. just the contrary.

we have to define what it forgiven (harassment, if you keep only this word, is extremely difficult to prove in court, let alone in an OSC), but also say how we will make the rule enforced (read again my last post, thanks)

Wait, have you _read_ the post? It specifically defines what Harassment includes. Is that not sufficient? If not, please point out how it could be made better. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 05:48:46PM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

* Greg KH (gregkh@suse.de) [20110509 20:54]:

...

Wait, have you _read_ the post? It specifically defines what Harassment includes. Is that not sufficient?

Nope, some terms are too vague:

offensive verbal comments related to ...

Define offensive.

of·fen·sive    [uh-fen-siv or, for 4, 5, aw-fen-, of-en-] –adjective 1. causing resentful displeasure; highly irritating, angering, or annoying: offensive television commercials. 2. unpleasant or disagreeable to the sense: an offensive odor. 3. repugnant to the moral sense, good taste, or the like; insulting: an offensive remark; an offensive joke.

sexual or racial images in public spaces

Them being defined as sexual or racial by whom?

By the person hearing them.

deliberate intimidation

Again, defined by whom?

By the person feeling intimidated.

inappropriate jokes and insults;

OK, insults should be out of the question but who defines the inappropriateness of a joke? That varies between cultures.

Again, it is defined by the person hearing it. Yes, it is vague, but that's the way language is, sorry. Even legal language dealing with this type of thing looks almost exactly like this wording, so you aren't going to get a much "clearer" definition anywhere that I know of.

inappropriate physical contact; and unwelcome sexual attention.

Needs to be defined as this is too unclear.

How would you define this? thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 06:06:03PM +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mardi 10 mai 2011, à 09:01 -0700, Greg KH a écrit :

...

Again, it is defined by the person hearing it.

I think that's the key point, and I fail to see why people want to strictly define everything in the policy.

We know the policy can't handle all cases, but what it can do is define what is the proper reaction when there is an issue for someone.

The point is: if someone feels uncomfortable because of something, then this person should not be afraid of raising her/his concern and people should try to adapt their behavior following this feedback.

Exactly, thanks for summarizing it this way. greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-05-10 Per wrote:

Vincent Untz wrote:

...

The point is: if someone feels uncomfortable because of something, then this person should not be afraid of raising her/his concern and people should try to adapt their behavior following this feedback.

Vincent, those three lines are _perfect_. Can we please have those as the policy?

Could you add them a place where you think it is appropriate? After all (and this goes for others who have asked for certain things to be added) this is a wiki page. Martin did the right thing by adding a few suggestions, I have no objection whatsoever to you doing the same :D More importantly, it saves me the work of going through all the mails here, adding things and hoping I understood what you proposed to change. If you want to make sweeping changes (esp removals) it would be polite to either be conservative or put such an area between "<remove>" or something like that with your name behind it, or suggest here very specifically what section to remove completely. But additions you should liberally make, I can easily use the diff functionality to figure out what changed and where appropriate make changes or discuss them. Thanks, I'm happy some of this discussion moved on from 'meta' to the actual text :D

On 05/10/2011 06:01 PM, Greg KH wrote:

...

sexual or racial images in public spaces

Them being defined as sexual or racial by whom?

By the person hearing them.

That is subjective

...

deliberate intimidation

Again, defined by whom?

By the person feeling intimidated.

That is subjective

...

inappropriate jokes and insults;

OK, insults should be out of the question but who defines the inappropriateness of a joke? That varies between cultures.

Again, it is defined by the person hearing it.

Again that is subjective IMO a policy should be impartial, subjective terms will not help Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 10/05/2011 23:51, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

of philosophy mode and talk about any concrete improvements? If there are none, then let's stop the discussion and we'll have a policy.

when I wrote about wearing an openSUSE T-Shirt, I was not joking. Such T-Shirt could be made free if we find a sponsor or even for some amount, in a 1000 copies, it shouldn't be that expensive and anyway a good product to show when coming back. Asking for openSUSE (or corporate) only posters on boots could also remove many image problems. Can we also make it alcool and tobbaco free? we *all* want to make the conference comfortable for anybody. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

we have to define what it forgiven (harassment, if you keep only this word, is extremely difficult to prove in court, let alone in an OSC), but also say how we will make the rule enforced (read again my last post, thanks)

Do We need to go that far? I believe the idea is to try to protect somehow our own group. Be feel safe, be confortable, nothing more nothing less... Izabel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-05-09 jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 20:13, Greg KH a écrit :

...

So you are saying that we should not post anything and just hope to address it _after_ the fact? That's not good.

not at all. just the contrary.

we have to define what it forgiven (harassment, if you keep only this word, is extremely difficult to prove in court, let alone in an OSC), but also say how we will make the rule enforced (read again my last post, thanks)

As was said before, what constitutes harassment will be judged based on how it was perceived. This is NOT, in any way, a legal thing and I don't want to go into that other than by saying we have every right to do what we need to do to protect visitors of our conference.

please, take example of images:

there are two ways to cope with offending images: white list of black list.

"only official opensUSE images will be authorized" is pretty hard, but there no discussions;

"please do not use any sexy (male or female) image" is softer, but much more difficult to sort with. Many advertisement campaign that we see in any street are inappropriate? In such case, we can have soft rules, if and only if one people (or a small group of people) is given the right to decide. You can't say "is inapropriate what is seen as inapropriate", because somebody have to arbiter!

Yes you can, that's exactly what we'll do. This does not mean anyone can go and complain someone said the world "airplane" and claim to be offended by that - we're not insane. But as a rule of thumb, what is perceived as offence IS an offence. Let me try to explain what would happen: If an offence is perceived and a complaint comes in, we'll talk to the offender and offended. If the offender was not aware of the offensive nature of his/her action (and we have good reason to believe that) we'll simply ask him/her to refrain from the action in question. An appology would be appreciated or required (depending on what happened). I doubt anyone will have a problem with this and I would hope the incident will be closed at that point. Only in case of repeated (after warning) offences/inappropriate behavior or somebody clearly violating all social norms more severe actions like expelling would be considered. But as was noted, this hasn't happened in the past so this is not really relevant. The arbiter will be the conference organization (including me, as I have some of the background to help with this). So proving, court, further definition - all irrelevant. This is not math. If you really have trouble understanding that, I'd rather have you mail me personally than keeping this discussion going. We can skype if you like. That doesn't mean I don't look for comments - I've already added some clarifications and I'm sure there is room for more. If you think it makes sense we could put the 'procedure' I described above up on the wiki page too. And if you think the procedure is not fair or anything like that, let me know. Just don't try to define 'unappropriate' or anything like that, it won't work.

don't se have already "guiding principles"? (and some peoples don't like this)

jdd

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:41 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 10/05/2011 16:18, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

...

If an offence is perceived and a complaint comes in, we'll talk to the offender and offended.

seems very unpractical;... the offender wont wait for you and in some hundred of people, it may be difficult to find him again.

What you describe is only possible if some one get drunk and we don't need policy to forgive these acts.

Reading your references, I mostly got the feeling that the problem was more collective than individual (Example of making some interviews of men as being women, etc).

The image problem is also more difficult. May I have a pin up on my T-Shirt? May I have a "fuck emacs" T-Shirt? Or may be simply "make love, not war"?

such things are pretty common, and I really think an accumulation on even softer sexual jokes can make women uncomfortable

asking people to wear openSUSE T-Shirt makes this highly improbable :-), it's the best way to be neutral

...

The arbiter will be the conference organization (including me, as I have some of the background to help with this).

good. How many women in the organisation team?

Izabel is there and she is in support of it. More women can step up, please go through the wiki pages.

I'm not at all against you and your policy. I only say that a good policy have to rely on well defined actions. speaking and writing is not enough.

jdd

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On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 11:13 -0700, Greg KH wrote:

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:04:09PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Le 09/05/2011 19:33, Greg KH a écrit :

...

It has happened numerous times at other open source conferences, so there's nothing to stop it from happening here unless we specifically let everyone know that it will not be tolerated at all.

Which this document is trying to do.

If you feel the above posting does not properly address this issue, how do you propose it be changed to do so in a manner in which you would feel acceptable?

seek what happened, looks like to know a lot about them (good!), and give some clue of what action could be done to prevent it. Who will say "stop", who will enforce it? stopping such thing needs autority and force.

Jumping in here mid-stream though i still have a lot more of this thread to read. I'm a bit concerned by the tone some of you have expressed and it seems misguided and based on observation and not on real-world experiences. I can tell you based on my *two* real-world legal experiences that Greg is on the right rrack and that Jos's intention here is excellent. Now... let me state a few things that are very important. Any segment of society that feels they have been victims of harassment definitely appreciate the intention here. It is good and excellent.to be exploring this topic and sends a strong message. However a policy of anti-harassment that is not coupled with a policy of diversity rings hollow in most cases. The two legal cases I was involved in were won simply because it was recognized that the entity in question did not have an equal policy on diversity and that the anti-harassment policy was in place simply because "they had to do it legally." So, the topic of diversity is something that we, on the CFP committee are going to have to address as well. And to the one person who said we need to look at the laws of the land where the conference will be held... sorry.. that's a cop out and rings hollow once again for the same reasons I stated above. Anti-harassment laws were put into place because people didn't have the common sense to know right from wrong and ensure that the right action would be taken. The only way to protect yourself from any liabilities is to go above and beyond what the local laws say you must do. To do just the bare minimum is to fail and won't work in a court of law, nor in a court of public opinion.

So you are saying that we should not post anything and just hope to address it _after_ the fact? That's not good.

Guess what folks! the "after the fact" notion here already exists. Last year, at the openSUSE Conference, during the party held at Novell's offices, my two female sign-language interpreters and I were sitting in a sofa area. As is the responsibility of my interpreters, they interpreted the environment happening around me. At one point, one of my interpreters suddenly went wide-eyed and a bit uncomfortable. It turns out, several men in the sofa area directly behind her were having a discussion explicitly detailing sexual positions that work well in controlling a woman in bed. And I do mean explicit. Because of the lack of an anti-harassment policy, I was unable to get up and state something to this group. If I had done so anyway, the most likely response was "We were not talking to you, this was our own private conversation." And a new argument would have ensued about whether the conversation was indeed private. The fact is... no. Such conversations are not private when they are held in a public place where anyone can hear them, as was in this case. Our policy needs to make clear that its not just about how we address offensive matters in public-speaking sessions, but also in how we behave ourselves in casual situations in the hallways and events sponsored by the conference. The policy also needs to give a safe avenue for the affected person to express privately to someone in a position of authority who can address the matter on their behalf so it can be dealt with quickly. Having a policy without an "ombudsman" of some sort again, becomes moot. Please... do not waste the time of this discussion focusing on wording and semantics and trying to narrow down explicitly what constitutes harassment and situations of extreme discomfort. Focus directly on using common sense. The policy is not here just to discipline and "censor" (for lack of a better word) the offender, but to give the offended a set of text in which they can comfortably state "Sir (or Ma'am) what you are saying is inapporpriate and I am extremely uncomfortable in this situation. Please refer to the policy for any clarification. Thank you." Without such a policy, the offended is powerless and further empowers the offender to continue their actions as was evidenced at the last conference. Bryen The anti-harassment policy needs to make clear that even a conversation

This statement sets the tone for everyone that harassment will not be tolerated at all, and if it happens, explicit rules for what will happen. How is that not acceptable?

Please re-read what has been posted, and if you have suggestions as to make it more explicit to state this, then please let Jos know.

thanks,

greg k-h

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On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 18:36 +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 11/05/2011 17:59, Bryen M. Yunashko a écrit :

...

Because of the lack of an anti-harassment policy, I was unable to get up and state something to this group.

I don't think an explicit policy is necessary in such situation, but I'm sure it's not sufficient

you said yourself :"the anti-harassment policy was in place simply because "they had to do it legally."

isn't it exactly what we are doing here?

No it is not, and you are missing the whole point of the discussion as evidenced by several of your previous posts. The main goal here is to encourage an foster an environment that is welcoming and inviting to people of all races, creed, gender and physical abilities. That requires multiple pieces to be put together to form a greater picture of clarity to all within the affected community. An anti-harassment policy is but one of the pieces necessary to make it clear to our community that we welcome diversity. An anti-harassment policy is not, in and of itself, a message welcoming such diversity, but rather a tool to help ensure such diversity. Other steps need to be taken, including proclaiming directly that we embrace diversity and putting words into actions that encourage diversity. One such method is to ensure that our CFP process encourages it. And myself and Alan Clark, both members of the CFP commmittee, have now stated within the thread here that we will do so.

We have to make evident we are going to enforce the policy (and say how, to be trusted). You should have known how to react and to whom go to signal the fact.

Clearly by stating what you just said you have actually supported my case. You have obviously very little personal experience being part of an affected community that experiences harassment (and discrimination) on a regular basis as a way of life. "You should have known..." sure... I could have stood up and walked over to the group and scolded them. But life isn't so black and white. I know from personal experience that reality isn't always so easy. Those who harass will endlessly argue their way out of accepting responsibility for their actions. That's why court dockets are filled with such infractions being argued in a court of law. And without the text present, those affected become powerless as a minority. The text gives us the tool we need to be on equal ground and its a very important tool. But again, not the only tool. Beecause those of us who are affected are not drawn to entities that simply have such a policy, we're drawn to those that vigorously embrace diversity. It's why so many people with disabilities are drawn to Google, because of their strong stance on embrace. Same with the GNOME Foundation. You can argue all you want, but until you've walked a mile in our shoes, your arguments don't hold much of a candle. If you're going to continue to find ways to get us out of this by watering down and narrowing down and looking for end-runs, then all you are doing is presenting yourself as a person who does not embrace diversity. I sincerely hope that interpretation is wrong, but your actions thus far aren't proving otherwise. Bryen

jdd

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Le 11/05/2011 19:32, Bryen M. Yunashko a écrit :

Clearly by stating what you just said you have actually supported my case. You have obviously very little personal experience being part of an affected community that experiences harassment (and discrimination) on a regular basis as a way of life.

you are wrong on this respect

experience that reality isn't always so easy. Those who harass will endlessly argue their way out of accepting responsibility for their actions.

that's why we are some to ask for more precisions

vigorously embrace diversity. It's why so many people with disabilities are drawn to Google, because of their strong stance on embrace. Same with the GNOME Foundation.

don't know for google or gnome, but I work with such people for a very long time now (specially visually impaired, but not only) you know, I dont think we desagree really on important points. Having clear words is nice. I just feel it's not enough. That said I think I have explained all what I had to and will stop arguing. I support you and your work, be sure of that. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 21:03 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Clearly by stating what you just said you have actually supported my case. You have obviously very little personal experience being part of an affected community that experiences harassment (and

...

discrimination) on a regular basis as a way of life.

Please stop making invalid assumptions and being arrogant and offensive. Your tone is entirely inappropriate.

Please everybody. The tone here generally gets far away from what anybody reading the archive would possibly be calling 'inviting' and 'open'. Let's look at the topic pragmatic and from 'far away': - Are we as the openSUSE community all pulling in the same direction? If yes: great! Let's keep on doing so! If no: what are the differences? Are there possibilities we as ONE community can overcome? - Do we agree that nobody in our community should feel discriminated or harassed? If we do agree on the above: why is it so difficult to put this down in a sentence? If we do not agree: why not? Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2011/5/11 Bryen M. Yunashko :

On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 11:13 -0700, Greg KH wrote:

And to the one person who said we need to look at the laws of the land where the conference will be held... sorry.. that's a cop out and rings hollow once again for the same reasons I stated above.  Anti-harassment laws were put into place because people didn't have the common sense to know right from wrong and ensure that the right action would be taken. The only way to protect yourself from any liabilities is to go above and beyond what the local laws say you must do.  To do just the bare minimum is to fail and won't work in a court of law, nor in a court of public opinion.

My point (I am "the person who said we need to look at the law", and I have a name) was simply that it is unnecessary to list examples as Jos did, or provide detailed guidelines. Point people to a policy written by experts on the topic (there are many associations that deal with this kind of problems), instead than re-inventing the wheel, which would lead to something approximate, which is something you do not want given how delicate the topic is. Referring to the law is not "doing the bare minimum", but doing the best you can, since anything else would be anyway unenforceable. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 05:40:19PM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

* Greg KH (gregkh@suse.de) [20110509 19:34]:

...

Again, this is to create an environment where harassment is not welcome, and if it happens, a consequence for that action happening. That's all.

I guess most would agree on harassment being unwelcome. The problems come when you want to define the term. My experience shows that there are noticable cultural differences as to what *is* a harassment. Who's definition do we use?

Let's start with the definition on the web site, do you agree with that? If not, do you have suggestions on how to make it agreeable? thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 06:52:38PM -0300, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On 2011-05-10 Philipp wrote:

...

* Greg KH (gregkh@suse.de) [20110509 19:34]:

...

Again, this is to create an environment where harassment is not welcome, and if it happens, a consequence for that action happening. That's all.

I guess most would agree on harassment being unwelcome. The problems come when you want to define the term. My experience shows that there are noticable cultural differences as to what *is* a harassment. Who's definition do we use?

"whatever makes someone feel uncomfortable".

Yes, completely subjective, and as this IS about subjective feelings, that is all the definition we need.

So can we hand out "Please take a shower" cards? (I welcome this whole anti-harrassment approach, just beware that we germans especially like to over-define rules and like to make them bomb proof. :/) Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Jos Poortvliet (jos@opensuse.org) [20110511 10:24]:

...

Who's definition do we use?

"whatever makes someone feel uncomfortable".

Sorry, but human interaction sometimes is uncomfortable. Ander that definition you can't even critisize someone as that could make the other feel uncomfortable.

Yes, completely subjective, and as this IS about subjective feelings, that is all the definition we need.

Brave new world indeed. Sorry, but this discussion will lead nowhere so I'll just drop out again. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 11 May 2011 23:06:02 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

Surely a disagreement in itself can be uncomfortable, and I realize I was exaggerating a bit. I just tried to say that this is a subjective thing and we'll take feelings serious. You can't define feelings nor can anyone judge how someone else feels. Hence we have to base it on that.

I think the definition you're looking for should include "unwanted and annoying actions". A good (though perhaps US-centric - but honestly the definition seems good enough to cover international cases as well) legal definition is available at http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=853 If someone engages in an activity that upsets another and the other asks them to stop and the first person refuses, then it's harassment. Since it sounds like the conference organizers are looking to protect themselves legally (as well as the attendees), then perhaps it would be good to discuss with a legal professional. It surprises me how much discussion this simple question has caused, because it's not like no other conference has never thought of this or addressed it before. Maybe the organizers could talk to someone involved in the BrainShare conferences, as I'm sure they've addressed this at some point in the past. Another option would be to set aside the harassment discussion and just say that the organizers are responsible for security at the event, and if they determine someone should be removed for any reason, they (the organizers) have that right. That covers all sorts of possibilities, and gives the organizers wide latitude to ensure the conference is a place where people can enjoy themselves (but not at the expense of other attendees). Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Ok, sorry for this mail, it was way too late and I was darn tired when sending it. In any case, I'll update the policy with sensible input I got. If you have any input after that just mail me privately. Jos On 2011-05-13 Jos wrote:

On 2011-05-12 Jim wrote:

...

On Wed, 11 May 2011 23:06:02 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Surely a disagreement in itself can be uncomfortable, and I realize I was exaggerating a bit. I just tried to say that this is a subjective thing and we'll take feelings serious. You can't define feelings nor can anyone judge how someone else feels. Hence we have to base it on that.

I think the definition you're looking for should include "unwanted and annoying actions".

A good (though perhaps US-centric - but honestly the definition seems good enough to cover international cases as well) legal definition is available at http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=853

If someone engages in an activity that upsets another and the other asks them to stop and the first person refuses, then it's harassment.

Since it sounds like the conference organizers are looking to protect themselves legally (as well as the attendees), then perhaps it would be good to discuss with a legal professional.

It surprises me how much discussion this simple question has caused, because it's not like no other conference has never thought of this or addressed it before. Maybe the organizers could talk to someone involved in the BrainShare conferences, as I'm sure they've addressed this at some point in the past.

This policy is actually 90% literally based on a well established policy which was also used at LCA. LCA is well known as a conference which pioneered decent policies concerning minorities and it has worked out very well in the past. I have spoken to several people who explicitly stated LCA is the *only* conference they go to, due to the culture it has with regard to treating people. Linus Torvalds himself, for example, never misses an LCA despite being not a big fan of conferences at all - and these policies are one of the reasons for this.

Calling attention to the fact that having a good atmosphere matters has led at LCA to a great atmosphere and I am surprised and annoyed that so many people have been argueing so much against my proposal. Imho over half the arguments are irrelevant, the rest is simply wrong. A few make a little sense, and I applaud the 3-4 ppl who had concrete, useful suggestions. But the vast majority has been a waste of time.

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion is over. I'm gonna stop reading this thread, make the modifications made by the few sensible commenters and ignore the armchair philosophers. I bet they're even to lazy to change anything on the wiki anyway.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Next time I have something like this I'll just talk to a few sensible people and put it live.

g'night,

Jos

PS before you think otherwise, my rant is NOT targeted at you, Jim. I'll have a look at the link you posted tomorrow. And I'm sure the ppl who my criticism is targeting have no problem feeling it doesn't apply to them.

All I can say is that there seems to be (as often the case) a very strong inverse relationship between the number of (irrelevant) mails on -project someone sends and the amount of work someone does on openSUSE.

May I remember everyone here of the fact that opinions and ideas are cheap and work is what counts? If you're not even willing to put in a bit of time to properly read what others say and make concrete suggestions if someone asks for input (see the conference program thread for example) you'd better spend your time on, I dunno, a political mailinglist, where opinions are all that counts and nobody cares about reality.

Again sorry for the rant.

Am 15.05.2011 12:44, schrieb Thomas Hertweck:

I've just come back and have to read an email like this. That's awful! And an apology later on doesn't make this go away.

I thought it was one of the few threads on this list where people actually tried to stay on topic. Just because quite a few do not agree with your opinion doesn't make them armchair philosophers or invalidates the whole thread. Since you are citing the guiding principles frequently: "We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful." Clearly, this is just empty rhetoric for you... I can only shake my head about such an openSUSE community manager. Oh, by the way, sorry for the rant.

The guiding principals are a good thing, but you can´t expect that *everyone* *always* think of them and write his post according to them. We´re all human, and humans making mistakes, and often ram their heads together. And by the way, just because Jos is our community manager that doesn´t mean that he have to be always friendly and correct. Think of the catholic church. The´re priests swear to never ever have sex during their life and never ever marry. But it´s a fact that the most of them having children and also a woman they love. When you want a *always* clear and friendly discussion on such a topic, you need to talk with robots. To me, you´re all like little children who are arguing about a toy anyone wants to have.... And I think with this mail I become one of you. kind regards -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.05.2011 15:35, schrieb Basil Chupin:

On 15/05/11 23:01, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Am 15.05.2011 12:44, schrieb Thomas Hertweck:

...

I've just come back and have to read an email like this. That's awful! And an apology later on doesn't make this go away.

I thought it was one of the few threads on this list where people actually tried to stay on topic. Just because quite a few do not agree with your opinion doesn't make them armchair philosophers or invalidates the whole thread. Since you are citing the guiding principles frequently: "We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful." Clearly, this is just empty rhetoric for you... I can only shake my head about such an openSUSE community manager. Oh, by the way, sorry for the rant.

The guiding principals are a good thing, but you can´t expect that *everyone* *always* think of them and write his post according to them. We´re all human, and humans making mistakes, and often ram their heads together.

And by the way, just because Jos is our community manager that doesn´t mean that he have to be always friendly and correct. Think of the catholic church. The´re priests swear to never ever have sex during their life and never ever marry. But it´s a fact that the most of them having children and also a woman they love.

Oh boy :-( .

As an "openSUSE Ambassador" (as per your signature line) you shouldn't have come along this path..... :-( .

Well, I don´t come along this way as an ambassador, but as a person who doesn´t understand the sentence, that Jos shouldn´t say something like that as a community manager ;)

...

When you want a *always* clear and friendly discussion on such a topic, you need to talk with robots.

One has to ask the question: who started all this, and for what good reason?

political correctness

...

To me, you´re all like little children who are arguing about a toy anyone wants to have....

I think that the only child who wants his toy and is arguing for it is the one who rattled the cage and started off this whole unpleasantness.

...

And I think with this mail I become one of you.

Then welcome to the kindergarten, fellow child 8-) .

Which corner of the sand-pit do you want for yourself, and do you want the blue bucket or the yellow plastic spade to use? The red bulldozer is MINE! and you cannot have it, understand!?

the blue bucket. _But_ I *want* the red bulldozer....

BC

thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.05.2011 16:51, schrieb Basil Chupin:

Understood, but what I meant was ..... oh, never mind. ("Discretion is the better part of valour.")

Oh I guess you mean that I shouldn´t say the catholic-church-sentence because with such a sentence I easy can hurt someone´s feelings because he or she´s a big believer in the catholic-christian church? If so, this *wasn´t* my plan at all, because although I´m not a big fan of this church and although I´m a protestian and although I normaly believe in science and physics, I try to respect other´s churchs and faiths sorry, if anyone get hurt by this post -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.05.2011 15:38, schrieb jdd:

Get cool, boy, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkdP02HKQGc

sorry can´t see the vid.... "isn´t available in my country.... -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 15/05/11 14:01, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

[...] The guiding principals are a good thing, but you can´t expect that *everyone* *always* think of them and write his post according to them. We´re all human, and humans making mistakes, and often ram their heads together.

And by the way, just because Jos is our community manager that doesn´t mean that he have to be always friendly and correct. Think of the catholic church. The´re priests swear to never ever have sex during their life and never ever marry. But it´s a fact that the most of them having children and also a woman they love.

When you want a *always* clear and friendly discussion on such a topic, you need to talk with robots.

To me, you´re all like little children who are arguing about a toy anyone wants to have.... And I think with this mail I become one of you.

Grow up! You still think that an openSUSE community manager or ambassador or member can do whatever she/he wants and just get away with it, but that's not the case. I am sure if a "normal" community member had written an email like Jos' email, the wrath of a lot of mailing list members would have come down on that person. This has nothing to do with kids and toys, you are now trying to ridicule this thread to disgrace certain people. It is about respecting other people's opinions and concerns. Read this entire thread and you should realise that many people have expressed concerns about Jos' approach regarding a harassment policy and wanted to go for a short, simple statement. Do you really think just wiping all of these concerns away and stating "Next time I have something like this I'll just talk to a few sensible people and put it live" is the right approach? Do you really think a community manager should behave like this? I certainly don't think so. Unfortunately, on this mailing list people like you make the continuous attempt to silence other people who point out critical things or ask unpleasant questions, people who do not just say "yes" to everything the board or community manager or other members propose. Your email is another perfect example for this. One day even you will realise that something is wrong with this approach and those people perhaps contribute more than you think. It's just not necessarily the stuff you would like to hear. Th. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.05.2011 16:46, schrieb Thomas Hertweck:

Grow up! You still think that an openSUSE community manager or ambassador or member can do whatever she/he wants and just get away with it, but that's not the case.

It´s not the case that I have said this.

I am sure if a "normal" community member had written an email like Jos' email, the wrath of a lot of mailing list members would have come down on that person. This has nothing to do with kids and toys, you are now trying to ridicule this thread to disgrace certain people. It is about respecting other people's opinions and concerns. Read this entire thread and you should realise that many people have expressed concerns about Jos' approach regarding a harassment policy and wanted to go for a short, simple statement. Do you really think just wiping all of these concerns away and stating "Next time I have something like this I'll just talk to a few sensible people and put it live" is the right approach? Do you really think a community manager should behave like this? I certainly don't think so.

Of course it´s not. But when you, as an example, came up with the same language at Jos and tell him that you not agree with him, you´re really not better them him because you use the same language and the same respectless "aura" But when you say "Hey, Jos, what you´ve said is really not okay, please stop this and let it be for next time" instead, I wouldn´t have brought the children-toy-story thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.05.2011 16:46, schrieb Thomas Hertweck:

Unfortunately, on this mailing list people like you make the continuous attempt to silence other people who point out critical things or ask unpleasant questions, people who do not just say "yes" to everything the board or community manager or other members propose. Your email is another perfect example for this. One day even you will realise that something is wrong with this approach and those people perhaps contribute more than you think. It's just not necessarily the stuff you would like to hear.

Unfortunately, this is a perfect example for somebody, who can´t understand why somebody disagree with him and needs to declar him as somebody who doesn´t be against unfriendly, stupid or whatever things. And I don´t say yes to everything the board or a member or "even" our community manager is saying. This is just stupid and a false statement. As an example. when Jos {or AJ, or the board, or somebody from Novell/Attachmate} would say: openSUSE becomes a closed linux distro, we don´t need the community, it was a nice time, have fun anyway, I would be the first one who really would make a big drama about it and really becomes unfriendly. But at this thread, it just does not make any sense to strike back to that, what Jos is doing wrong. You know, when, as an example, Germany would say: "France? It´s just *******", France has two choices: * begin a war against Germany, maybe they would win land and new resources but they could also lose and get under the government of the Germans * Try to create a dialog, and speak to Germany, maybe they doesn´t mean it so, and it was just a misunderstanding on the french side. You (and some others) had choosen the first choice. So, know, Jos´ and your country is burned down and you have to rebuild it. What I want to say is the following: At this point, where you answer with the same unfriendlness and the same unrespectness, I garantee to you, that you will get it back. kind regards though -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 15.05.2011 18:44, schrieb Thomas Hertweck:

And yes, I will use the same "language" and rhetoric as used against me - you should remember that it wasn't me who started the unfriendliness. I think Jos' rant was completely uncalled-for.

I think you don´t understand my points. It´s not my problem who started and who just answered the whole thread. I just think, that we all (I include myself because I came up on the same way as you and Jos did) just fight and fight back. I think critism is okay and it´s necessary. It shows that a community is working well. But I think, that it doesn´t make sense at all to strike back, when Jos is saying, that he won´t reply to this thread anymore and just continue with something that isn´t necessary at all. For me that means, that I won´t reply to this thread for some days to win distance and maybe think about my posts to maybe correct something or just getting a different (better?) view of the thread. thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador / openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org | http://www.suse.de Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

please, you all, stop this, like Jos. Don't forget this is archived and don't serve openSUSE

thanks jdd

Well said jdd, - it's really getting a bit silly. One of the problems with lists is that the argument is set in print and archived, and isn't just a late-night moment of raised voices quickly forgotten. Still, any reader with an ounce of sense knows that a few individuals do not represent the entire project, just as a few silly or angry statements don't represent a person. If anyone wants to take the proposed anti-harassment policy document in a different direction, they are most welcome to write one that covers their points. If you want to write a long and detailed document, please go ahead. An ideal solution might be to have a brief statement as the main page with a clearly visible link to further information for those who want more details. I have no objection to such a document, I just don't want to spend my time writing something that I feel people probably won't read. This doesn't mean you shouldn't go ahead and do it, if you feel it is important to cover specifics. Go ahead and create a Wiki page or write a draft in another format. Other than that, there is already the bones of a pretty decent statement there on the page, so I think we can all move on with other productive work. My personal view is that it's openSUSE and we aren't idiots. This document is simply putting a few words around what we all already know. Really, how necessary is it to actually write down "treat other people with respect"? I'd like to think it's not necessary at all - this is for the benefit of maybe a very few selfish idiots, so they know we won't put up with their nonsense, --- and most importantly, for people who have experienced disrespect - or who fear it - to know that they will be supported. best, Helen IRC: helen_au helen.south@opensuse.org helensouth.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Kim Leyendecker wrote:

And by the way, just because Jos is our community manager that doesn´t mean that he have to be always friendly and correct.

No, but he does need to show aptitute for managing this community, and this debate is not a shining example. IMHO. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 13/05/11 09:33, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Wed, 11 May 2011 23:06:02 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Surely a disagreement in itself can be uncomfortable, and I realize I was exaggerating a bit. I just tried to say that this is a subjective thing and we'll take feelings serious. You can't define feelings nor can anyone judge how someone else feels. Hence we have to base it on that. I think the definition you're looking for should include "unwanted and annoying actions".

A good (though perhaps US-centric - but honestly the definition seems good enough to cover international cases as well) legal definition is available at http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=853

If someone engages in an activity that upsets another and the other asks them to stop and the first person refuses, then it's harassment.

Since it sounds like the conference organizers are looking to protect themselves legally (as well as the attendees), then perhaps it would be good to discuss with a legal professional.

It surprises me how much discussion this simple question has caused, because it's not like no other conference has never thought of this or addressed it before. Maybe the organizers could talk to someone involved in the BrainShare conferences, as I'm sure they've addressed this at some point in the past. This policy is actually 90% literally based on a well established policy which was also used at LCA. LCA is well known as a conference which

On 2011-05-12 Jim wrote: pioneered decent policies concerning minorities and it has worked out very well in the past. I have spoken to several people who explicitly stated LCA is the *only* conference they go to, due to the culture it has with regard to treating people. Linus Torvalds himself, for example, never misses an LCA despite being not a big fan of conferences at all - and these policies are one of the reasons for this.

Calling attention to the fact that having a good atmosphere matters has led at LCA to a great atmosphere and I am surprised and annoyed that so many people have been argueing so much against my proposal. Imho over half the arguments are irrelevant, the rest is simply wrong. A few make a little sense, and I applaud the 3-4 ppl who had concrete, useful suggestions. But the vast majority has been a waste of time.

As far as I'm concerned, the discussion is over. I'm gonna stop reading this thread, make the modifications made by the few sensible commenters and ignore the armchair philosophers. I bet they're even to lazy to change anything on the wiki anyway.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Next time I have something like this I'll just talk to a few sensible people and put it live.

g'night,

Jos

PS before you think otherwise, my rant is NOT targeted at you, Jim. I'll have a look at the link you posted tomorrow. And I'm sure the ppl who my criticism is targeting have no problem feeling it doesn't apply to them.

All I can say is that there seems to be (as often the case) a very strong inverse relationship between the number of (irrelevant) mails on -project someone sends and the amount of work someone does on openSUSE.

May I remember everyone here of the fact that opinions and ideas are cheap and work is what counts? If you're not even willing to put in a bit of time to properly read what others say and make concrete suggestions if someone asks for input (see the conference program thread for example) you'd better spend your time on, I dunno, a political mailinglist, where opinions are all that counts and nobody cares about reality.

Again sorry for the rant.

And you have advised us all that you are a qualified, and presumably a fully certified, 'psycho'. At which academic institution did you get your qualification, just as a matter of interest, and at which clinic did you practice? I have been reading this thread and have been wondering if you have been trying to find a problem for which you have an imaginary solution just for something to do or whether you genuinely believe that you have a possible solution for an imaginary problem. "Sorry to be so blunt." BC -- "The time has been That, when the brains were out, the man would die," "Macbeth", Shakespeare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 18/05/11 07:12, Per Jessen wrote:

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On 2011-05-12 Jim wrote:

...

It surprises me how much discussion this simple question has caused, because it's not like no other conference has never thought of this or addressed it before.

Or not addressed in fact. (because it was never a problem).

...

...

Maybe the organizers could talk to someone involved in the BrainShare conferences, as I'm sure they've addressed this at some point in the past.

I have been attending various conferences for about twenty years - IBM SHARE/GUIDE mostly, OOPSLA on occasion, internal corporate conferences more often. None of those have had an "anti-harassment policy", simply (AFAICT) because they expect attendees to be behaving professionally and with decorum. (Anstand). Perhaps that is the most interesting thing about this debate - our community manager does clearly NOT expect that.

...

Calling attention to the fact that having a good atmosphere matters has led at LCA to a great atmosphere and I am surprised and annoyed that so many people have been argueing so much against my proposal.

Don't be annoyed, be thankful that your community consists of people who care enough to argue. In my opinion, your proposal is causing a problem because it tries to address an issue that does not, as far as we know, exist. You have so far neglected to argue why you deem this policy to be necessary.

Please read http://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ if you have not already done so. Jos linked to it from his blog (I forget whether it was mentioned explicitly in this thread or not). There may not have been problems at previous openSUSE conferences (I certainly hope not!) but there *have* been problems at an assortment of other open source conferences in the past. A statement like "we don't tolerate harassment" does not necessarily imply that anyone *expects* harassment - surely most people are generally decent, right? - but it lets everyone know (especially those who have had bad experiences at other conferences), that there is awareness of the potential for problems and a willingness to take a stand against them should they manifest. (Note: I'm not arguing here for or against the current form or content of the policy, just trying to demonstrate the general utility of having one.) Regards, Tim -- Tim Serong Senior Clustering Engineer, OPS Engineering, Novell Inc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 17 May 2011, Per Jessen wrote:

Don't be annoyed, be thankful that your community consists of people who care enough to argue. In my opinion, your proposal is causing a problem because it tries to address an issue that does not, as far as we know, exist. You have so far neglected to argue why you deem this policy to be necessary.

Of course it's a problem that exists; harassment at conferences has been well documented, even if you haven't seen it personally. Has it happened before at an openSUSE event? I don't know. But "it hasn't happened yet" is not a reasonable argument against having a policy. Policies are put in place to make it clear to everyone what is unacceptable, and most importantly, make it clear how to respond. If the policy ends up being completely unnecessary over the years, that's great. Honestly, I don't understand why this is an issue. If there's no downside to having a policy, why not have one? -- Matt Barringer, Software Engineer SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, DE GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)

Le 18/05/2011 09:04, Matt Barringer a écrit :

If there's no downside to having a policy, why not have one?

are you sure the places having problems didn't have a policy? The main problem is not having a policy but having a day to day (not only at events) way of making it real. seeing how we work for several years now, I don't think we behave so badly, but may be we should have some sort of "ombudsman" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ombudsman). That is an arbiter, independant equally from the board, Novell and the community. I don't see this as a hard work, but somebody the advice could be called by anybody in the community from time to time, specially when the code of conduct or the guiding principles are involved. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Matt Barringer wrote:

...

On Tue, 17 May 2011, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Don't be annoyed, be thankful that your community consists of people who care enough to argue.  In my opinion, your proposal is causing a problem because it tries to address an issue that does not, as far as we know, exist.  You have so far neglected to argue why you deem this policy to be necessary.

Of course it's a problem that exists; harassment at conferences has been well documented, even if you haven't seen it personally.  Has it happened before at an openSUSE event?  I don't know.  But "it hasn't happened yet" is not a reasonable argument against having a policy.

Nor is "but it could happen" a reasonable argument for having a policy.

"there is a significant possibility it will happen" is a good argument, but noone has (as far I have seen) tried using that yet.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-05/msg00158.html One reason I see why we should have it.

/Per -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- Regards Manu Gupta -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Le 09/05/2011 19:02, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

...

Didn't I ask to read the FAQ? ;-)

I did, I even read the links (not up to the end... too long)

...

Which is why I put in the FAQ mentioning freedom of speech,

is that only speech is involved?

...

General (and obvious) comments as feedback on how difficult it is to define harassment etc are slightly less useful.

it's an invitation to be more precise. An imprecise document is *worst* than anything.

+1. Better a short few lines with an intent than a lengthy imprecise policy. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Greg KH wrote:

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 07:00:32PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Hi all,

I'd like to have a code of conduct or anti-harassment policy at our conference, see for reasons my latest blog at http://blog.jospoortvliet.com

I made a draft: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Code_of_Conduct

Please, any input is more than welcome! But read before replying, there is a FAQ already so don't ask what is answered there ;-)

It looks pretty good to me, although words like "inappropriate" are not really appropriate :-( "inappropriate" will always be in the ear of the beholder.

{sigh}

No, that's not true at all. "Inappropriate" is something that is offensive to others.

Like I said, it's in the ear of the beholder. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Greg KH wrote:

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 07:55:27PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 07:00:32PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Hi all,

I'd like to have a code of conduct or anti-harassment policy at our conference, see for reasons my latest blog at http://blog.jospoortvliet.com

I made a draft: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Code_of_Conduct

Please, any input is more than welcome! But read before replying, there is a FAQ already so don't ask what is answered there ;-)

It looks pretty good to me, although words like "inappropriate" are not really appropriate :-( "inappropriate" will always be in the ear of the beholder.

{sigh}

No, that's not true at all. "Inappropriate" is something that is offensive to others.

Like I said, it's in the ear of the beholder.

{sigh}

No, not at all, there are well defined definitions of harassment. Don't pretend otherwise, to do so is to demean it.

[sigh too] Please don't tell me what to do. I shall pretend otherwise unless those definitions are culture- and language-neutral. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.0°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Greg KH wrote:

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:40:24PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

[sigh too]

Please don't tell me what to do. I shall pretend otherwise unless those definitions are culture- and language-neutral.

Is the posted list of "Harassment includes" not defined in such a manner? If not, how could it be made better?

The posted list includes the word "inappropriate", that's where it gets de-railed, because that is 100% culture- and language-specific (aka in the ear of the beholder). Jokes that are entirely appropriate in Scandinavia will be inappropriate in Germany, cause a pub-fight in Britain and imprisonment in Turkey. (just a theoretical example, no offence to anyone intended). The key issue in what Jos wrote (presumably borrowed from elsewhere?) is that it way too long, which leads to people thinking it is or should be precise. Rather than trying to define everything in minute detail, I think we should accept that it's not possible and only have a short and concise statement or policy, preferably referring to our guiding principles as jdd and Jos have already mentioned. Why not simply state that the openSUSE Guiding Principles also apply to the openSUSE conference? (as Jos did in the intro). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (18.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 09/05/2011 23:04, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

In both cases, problem solved.

We won't be kicking out anyone on a whim,

the good point of this thread is that references given are interesting. I still feel like the solution is not, not only, mostly not a rule of conduct. I'm pretty sure nobody will complain about the rule of conbduct content. Nobody will ask for rape freedom (Hum... seems like this is not completely true given the recent US news). But if you read the references, you see that a women was subject of inapropriate (at least) tentatives *in her room* *late in the evening* *after many beers*. I don't see where our rules of conduct can have an utility here! But may be we want to forgive alcoohol in the conference? (that said, this would not have done any good in the case cited, on the contrary, forgiving alcohol in the conf makes people go to they room to drink. we probably have to setup organisation rules to *prevent* problems. And, Jos, do you think *you* are going to kick some drunk people out? what if he is 1.90m tall and 100kgs? I already have managed such problem, trust me, it's not easy :-( jdd NB: one of my daughter if a singer in a local feast orchestra, I can say inappropriate conduct problems are frequent and the best arm is cop dog! -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-05-09 Greg wrote:

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 11:58:59PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

And, Jos, do you think *you* are going to kick some drunk people out? what if he is 1.90m tall and 100kgs? I already have managed such problem, trust me, it's not easy :-(

I can easly handle such people, being a bit bigger than that, and lots of experience being a bouncer at a punk-rock bar for a number of years.

Looks like we have an official bouncer, awesome. On a more serious note, I think the policy made clear that 'the conference organization' would be responsible for both judging, deciding and executing any actions, responding to complaints. That team does indeed include me I would hope that physical kicking out will not be nessesairy. Most people in our community are friendly and sensible people and no, I don't think we'll have any major issues. This more about giving a signal to potential visitors of minorities that they will be safe, AND empower them to speak up IF inappropriate behavior is occuring by giving a clear contact point. We still need to find someone for that, by the way. I am more than willing to act as contact point but if someone else steps forward that'd be great of course.

greg k-h

On 2011-05-10 Per wrote:

Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 09 May 2011 21:12:56 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:40:24PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

[sigh too]

Please don't tell me what to do. I shall pretend otherwise unless those definitions are culture- and language-neutral.

Is the posted list of "Harassment includes" not defined in such a manner? If not, how could it be made better?

The posted list includes the word "inappropriate", that's where it gets de-railed, because that is 100% culture- and language-specific (aka in the ear of the beholder). Jokes that are entirely appropriate in Scandinavia will be inappropriate in Germany, cause a pub-fight in Britain and imprisonment in Turkey. (just a theoretical example, no offence to anyone intended).

The key issue in what Jos wrote (presumably borrowed from elsewhere?) is that it way too long, which leads to people thinking it is or should be precise. Rather than trying to define everything in minute detail, I think we should accept that it's not possible and only have a short and concise statement or policy, preferably referring to our guiding principles as jdd and Jos have already mentioned.

Why not simply state that the openSUSE Guiding Principles also apply to the openSUSE conference? (as Jos did in the intro).

I wanted to add a bit more info and examples and build upon something that is defined and discussed by many people already instead of re-inventing the wheel.

Which is completely reasonable, although in my opinion unnecessary.

...

In any case, as the FAQ stated clearly, your comments on 'but it is not precise' are completely irrelevant. What is an offence IS in the ear/eye of the beholder. And that is how it is, period. We (including you) have to accept that - it's how people work.

Hey, I was the one who pointed that out to begin with.

...

We can go into the deepest philosophy you want, but I'm a psychologist and for me - what people experience is real. Period. Nothing else is relevant.

To me, your tone is way inappropriate now.

In that case, I'm sorry, I did not intend to offend you.

* Thomas Hertweck (Thomas.Hertweck@web.de) [20110510 20:48]:

On 09/05/11 20:12, Per Jessen wrote:

I like Helen's second paragraph in her email sent today. I think this would point the way! At the end of the day, each case needs to be looked at on an individual basis anyway.

Seems we're on par here ;-) I too like Helen's suggested wording and would love to see that worked into the official statement. And I also think that each case needs to be dealt with individually. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 11:11:11AM -0700, Greg KH wrote:

No, not at all, there are well defined definitions of harassment.

Don't pretend otherwise, to do so is to demean it.

That's exactly the point. With policies and similar things you have to start somewhere. It is unfortunate that you cannot make a perfect first approach to stop harassment or have a policy that is understood well by everyone and applies to all cultures. But you have to start somewhere. I have read many of those articles which inspired our policy and these articles made me sad. The most notable was the one (sorry, I don't have the link anymore) that the computer industry lacks women and the attendance of women at IT conferences is already very low compared to other industries, but even on top of that it is far worse with open source conferences. This is a message we all need to understand, because it simply means that women don't feel welcome and/or safe at open source conferences. Things need to change. One big step is the anti-harassment policy for openSUSE conference 2011. Thanks Jos! Thanks also to Greg for defending it! -- Bye, Stephan Barth Novell Technical Services, Worldwide Support Services Linux SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuremberg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 05:55:59PM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

* Greg KH (gregkh@suse.de) [20110509 19:12]:

...

No, that's not true at all. "Inappropriate" is something that is offensive to others.

With that you presto arrive at political correctness where everbody tries to evade even the tiniest possibility of possibly being offensive and at least I would not want to be part of it.

NO. It is NOT "political correctness" at all. It is the act of causing others to feel intimidated and degraded. That is what we need to work to remove and not allow. How is that "politically correct"?

...

If you try to parse this out individually, sure, you can get stuck in the minor details of wordsmithing.

NO! It's not minor details of wordsmithing! You seem to assume that cultural differences don't exist as otherwise you wouldn't talk in that way.

I'm not saying that there aren't cultural differences at all. I know that very well. What I am trying to do here is help create an environment where all are welcome and do not feel uncomfortable. I'm sure that you can agree that this is a good goal, so, how would you reword the existing document to fit this in a manner in which you feel would better show differing cultural differences? thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-05-10 Per wrote:

Greg KH wrote:

...

It is NOT "political correctness" at all.

It is the act of causing others to feel intimidated and degraded. That is what we need to work to remove and not allow.

How is that "politically correct"?

...

...

If you try to parse this out individually, sure,

you can get stuck in the minor details of wordsmithing.

NO! It's not minor details of wordsmithing! You seem to assume that cultural differences don't exist as otherwise you wouldn't talk in that way.

I'm not saying that there aren't cultural differences at all. I know that very well.

What I am trying to do here is help create an environment where all are welcome and do not feel uncomfortable.

I am assuming we already have such an environment, and that we therefore do not need any further guidelines. I agree with Philipp, if we take this any further, in the extreme we'll end up with political correctness:

"Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, religious belief, disability, and age-related contexts". (from wikipedia).

The goal of this is to write down our implicit policy. It doesn't aim to change the status quo, just bring awareness of the issues. And it's not even meant to bring awareness of these issues to 99% of you but to people who might be uncertain or are worried about how they would be treated at a technical conference. You and others here seem to underestimate the bad reputation open source conferences have under at least some subset of our community (females in particular, but not only them). This policy aims to (help) change that perception and make clear that we don't tolerate improper behavior. It's not meant to make our conference politically correct, heck, I don't like that as much as anyone here. But I do care about giving off a signal to woman and others that we want them to be at our conference too. So please look at this policy from THAT point of view: primairily as a message, not as an enforcement tool. As I said before, I doubt issues like these would've been handled much different in the past (although it is possible that if they had come up people would've underestimated the seriousness of them).

On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 18:59 +0200, Egbert Eich wrote:

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 05:55:59PM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

...

* Greg KH (gregkh@suse.de) [20110509 19:12]:

...

No, that's not true at all. "Inappropriate" is something that is offensive to others. With that you presto arrive at political correctness where everbody tries to evade even the tiniest possibility of possibly being offensive and at least I would not want to be part of it. If you try to parse this out individually, sure, you can get stuck in the minor details of wordsmithing. NO! It's not minor details of wordsmithing! You seem to assume that cultural differences don't exist as otherwise you wouldn't talk in that way. YES, it is! Skimming over the links posted on harassment cases on conferences I did not find a single one which I would have not considered inappropriate and I think most of us would feel the same way.

+1, the cultural-relativity argument is a straw-man. And it is your conference; you get to define the culture. I've been to conferences and I'm pretty sure I was in the room for one of the instances mentioned in the articles [presenter using slide of bikini clad females]. It was ridiculous, and would have been ridiculous anywhere. Hooray to those who are putting some guidelines down. Just make sure you send a copy to those presenting / volunteering; don't just stash it on some forgotten wiki somewhere. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-05-10 Alin wrote:

...

And it is your conference; you get to define the culture. I've been to conferences and I'm pretty sure I was in the room for one of the instances mentioned in the articles [presenter using slide of bikini clad females]. It was ridiculous, and would have been ridiculous anywhere. Hooray to those who are putting some guidelines down.

I agree with you that women in bikini in a presentation about opensuse/opensource can be bad taste... but feeling harassed by that seems to me a little bit too much.... bad taste != harassment

It serves no purpose while it does make people feel uncomfortable. Why not tell a presenter beforehand we don't want such imagery and ask them to find another way of making their point? Yes, that is surely one of the things this policy is meant to do - for presenters at least. Altough I would hope the visitors and presenters at our conference have the decency to think of this themselves.

Alin

On Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:22:22 AM Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Tue, 10 May 2011 13:09:39 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams

wrote:

...

the cultural-relativity argument is a straw-man.

No it's not! And do speak from experience. Mind you, nothing as stated in the lwn article but on a lower level.

After some hours of thinking it over I do think it is a good idea to state up front what we don't tolerate *if* we also make clear that each case will be jugded on an individual basis.

So, I guess your happy with the proposal that Jos made in this thread:

If an offence is perceived and a complaint comes in, we'll talk to the offender and offended. If the offender was not aware of the offensive nature of his/her action (and we have good reason to believe that) we'll simply ask him/her to refrain from the action in question. An appology would be appreciated or required (depending on what happened). I doubt anyone will have a problem with this and I would hope the incident will be closed at that point. Only in case of repeated (after warning) offences/inappropriate behavior or somebody clearly violating all social norms more severe actions like expelling would be considered. But as was noted, this hasn't happened in the past so this is not really relevant.

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE aj@{novell.com,suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, May 09, 2011 09:32:53 PM Per Jessen wrote:

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Monday, May 09, 2011 05:31:50 PM Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Hi all,

I'd like to have a code of conduct or anti-harassment policy at our conference, see for reasons my latest blog at http://blog.jospoortvliet.com

I made a draft: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Code_of_Conduct

Please, any input is more than welcome! But read before replying, there is a FAQ already so don't ask what is answered there ;-)

Jos, thanks a lot for doing this, this is indeed needed!

Btw. let me add two URLs that convinced me that we need such a policy: https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ http://jezebel.com/5705980/women-fed-up-with-open-source-community-creeps

Andreas, I'm curious (really just curious, but I think it's important), why do you think our Guiding Principles are insufficient for this particular event?

The Guiding Principles are a good base for the statement but I like how the proposed draft gives more details on how we interpret them at the conference and what to do, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE aj@{novell.com,suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 09/05/2011 21:22, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

Btw. let me add two URLs that convinced me that we need such a policy: https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ http://jezebel.com/5705980/women-fed-up-with-open-source-community-creeps

we need a way to avoid such things. I personnally think a written policy is of little use. It makes us feel good and keep bad old habits... I speciall y like this link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Timeline_of_incidents but then you simply discover our society [our :-))) you see I'm in occident] is incredibly sexist, what may not be a surprise. this makes me think we need actions, not policies. The problem seems to be mostly sexism. If so *we* should have, as organisation, a self policy, specially aimed to the presenters and organisers. The harassment list of Jos seem aimed at individual harassement, when I see the references more speaking of collective harassement. For example, the more recent thing: http://blog.mozilla.com/dherman/2011/05/02/a-failure-of-imagination/ the problem there is not that of the public, but that of the organiser. Thats why I asked for a survey of the problems. I never imagined a conference organiser could do such a thing! We need a list of stupid things to avoid. Nobody will read (or remember code of conduct), but some small sentences, yes. Do not name the hurricanes only from female surnames... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.youtube.com/user/jdddodinorg http://jdd.blip.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 5/9/2011 at 02:13 PM, in message <201105092213.38765.aj@novell.com>, Andreas Jaeger wrote: On Monday, May 09, 2011 09:47:46 PM jdd wrote: Le 09/05/2011 21:22, Andreas Jaeger a écrit : Btw. let me add two URLs that convinced me that we need such a policy: https://lwn.net/Articles/417952/ http://jezebel.com/5705980/women-fed-up-with-open-source-community-creeps

we need a way to avoid such things. I personnally think a written policy is of little use. It makes us feel good and keep bad old habits...

I don't see a different way - and looking what others write, this seems to be the best option.

I agree with AJ and applaud Jos initiative. I recommend that the CFP reference this policy so that conference speakers are made aware of the policy prior to being accepted as presenters and that they can then plan to adhere to it. Alan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 10/05/11 09:57, Helen South wrote:

There's some pretty extreme situations being raised here, which I think could derail the intention somewhat. Issues like actual physical assault and rape are serious and require law enforcement. These are not to be taken lightly.

My understanding of this document is that it is to articulate that we, as a community, value and respect people of all stripes - genders, orientations, races, abilities, shapes and sizes - and will not tolerate vilification, abuse or harassment in any form. We appreciate that cultural differences may cause misunderstanding so are trying to clarify these, and will attempt to smooth misunderstandings as they arise, but expect people to not play dumb, and make an effort. I think it's important that we state this in writing. It's not going to be a perfect document and it's a brief position statement, not a 500-page manual of How Not To Be A Loser.

Regrettably, the people who need most to read and understand it will do neither.

cheers

Helen

The story goes that Moses received 2 stone tablets on Mount Sinai which contained 10 very simple and easy to understand instructions. Everyday each one of them is broken by thousands of people. BC -- "The older the violin the sweeter the music." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 05/10/2011 09:38 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 10/05/2011 01:57, Helen South a écrit :

...

we, as a community, value and respect people of all stripes - genders, orientations, races, abilities, shapes and sizes - and will not tolerate vilification, abuse or harassment in any form. We appreciate that cultural differences may cause misunderstanding so are trying to clarify these, and will attempt to smooth misunderstandings as they arise, but expect people to not play dumb, and make an effort.

I really like this phrasing. This should be simply added to the guiding principles (eventually as a side note).

I like it also

We have to accept than open source users are people like any others, nor better nor worse and if we meet them in a number, we have to take appropriate organisation.

but IMHO we need also some internal set of practical rules to enforce we as organisation are not breaking our own rules

The highest type of ruler is one of whose existence the people are barely aware. Next comes one whom they love and praise. Next comes one whom they fear. Next comes one whom they despise and defy. When you are lacking in faith, Others will be unfaithful to you. The Sage is self-effacing and scanty of words. When his task is accomplished and things have been completed, All the people say, "We ourselves have achieved it!" (Dao De Jing #17) Togan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-05-09 Greg wrote:

On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Hi all,

I'd like to have a code of conduct or anti-harassment policy at our conference, see for reasons my latest blog at http://blog.jospoortvliet.com

I made a draft: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Code_of_Conduct

Please, any input is more than welcome! But read before replying, there is a FAQ already so don't ask what is answered there ;-)

Cheers, Jos

(resend)

If the primary concern is sexual harassment, the US military instituted a fairly simple rule 10+ years ago that seems to work for them.

In addition to a document which defines harrasment, they instituted a green light, yellow light, red light system.

If in discussion a person feels the conversation is veering into questionable territory, they can say yellow light. I think the others are to take that as, your close to the line, but didn't go over it.

If someone says "red light", then the line was crossed and the person should immediately stop whatever they were doing.

I believe the fundamental reason for that is what Per is saying, what is appropriate varies from culture to culture, person to person, and sometimes even time to time.

Thus what might be in appropriate in the first few minutes of meeting someone, may become a welcome advance at the end of the second private dinner together.

But with the traffic light system, when I guy makes crude but not totally inappropriate statement, a woman can simply say "yellow light". Meaning you didn't offend me, but that's as far as it going so don't try anything else.

One thing I believe they liked about this system was it was intuitively obvious and did not require a lot of instruction.

ie. ==== What did you do after she said red-light?

She was just playing hard to get, so I tried to kiss her.

Guilty - bye. ==== Greg

While I think it is a very good protocol for situations where there is a clear issue and a tension is present, I think it is a bit overkill for our conference. I even believe we'd run the risk of making these issues so visible we'd get a self-fullfilling prophecy. In other words, I agree with Helen and incidentally love her "How Not To Be A Loser" joke :D

On Thursday, May 19, 2011 09:46:46 AM Jos Poortvliet wrote: ...

... The conference organization team would like to let you know that this document is now final.

Page is now semi-protected, in other words only established wiki editors (autoconfirmed) can change it, new wiki users can't.

Greetings, Jos Poortvliet

-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 21 May 2011 14:00:04 DenverD wrote:

On 05/21/2011 02:06 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday, May 19, 2011 09:46:46 AM Jos Poortvliet wrote: ...

...

... The conference organization team would like to let you know that this document is now final.

Page is now semi-protected, in other words only established wiki editors (autoconfirmed) can change it, new wiki users can't.

is there good reason to not allow grammatical, word choice, and spelling errors (and other little nits) which are held for approval by the established wiki editors prior to inclusion/publication? As far as I am concerned, no reason to block those. Just make them and an admin will look & approve...

On Saturday, May 21, 2011 12:00:17 PM Manu Gupta wrote:

...

As far as I am concerned, no reason to block those. Just make them and an admin will look & approve...

Thats what happens, anyone with wiki privileges does just that

Well, semi protected is not the same as protected, all wiki editors with more then few edits had right to edit page that is semi protected, no need for admin privileges. Now is back to unprotected, so anyone can change anything and it will stay that way until there is consensus how to treat that and similar pages. IMHO, all pages that contain something like "Conference Code of Conduct" should be protected to some extent, or monitored for changes. Page "openSUSE:Conference Code of Conduct" is in namespace that is not included in FlaggedRevs extension, as it should be work space with files that don't need protection against vandalism. So automatic monitoring does not exist. Options are: * move page to Main namespace where FlaggedRevs is active * manual monitoring recent changes, or checking RSS feed of recent changes * include in a personal watch list and check often that list * protect page * consider page as not important -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hey, On 22.05.2011 00:59, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday, May 21, 2011 12:00:17 PM Manu Gupta wrote:

...

...

As far as I am concerned, no reason to block those. Just make them and an admin will look& approve...

Thats what happens, anyone with wiki privileges does just that

Well, semi protected is not the same as protected, all wiki editors with more then few edits had right to edit page that is semi protected, no need for admin privileges. Now is back to unprotected, so anyone can change anything and it will stay that way until there is consensus how to treat that and similar pages.

For now we have pages with guidelines and rules and stuff in full protection and discuss all changes first on mailing lists. I think this is needed because the influence of wording, spelling and "other little nits" on meaning can be great. Lets protect this one too. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org