On Thursday, 13 April 2017 14:23:36 BST Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 15:05 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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Why not? Why does everyone have to use GNOME? If your argument carried, we should all be using Windows, not GNOME.

Linux desktop is weak, if there is only one general purpose Desktop, it has many benefit for all of us.

...

Papers or it didn't happen.

Please provide description. You are being asked for proof/evidence/reports of your statement that Gnome is more secure than KDE

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170407 Qt: 5.7.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.32.0 KDE Plasma: 5.9.4 kwin 5.9.4 kmail2 5.4.3 akonadiserver 5.4.3 Kernel: 4.10.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.14_1.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13 April 2017 at 15:29, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Thursday 2017-04-13 14:53, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

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Hello, most Linux distributions are using GNOME by default, including:

Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu starting with v18.04, RHEL and most of it's derivatives, and even SUSE Linux enterprise; so why openSUSE is using KDE by default?

Why not? Why does everyone have to use GNOME? If your argument carried, we should all be using Windows, not GNOME.

...

GNOME is more stable, has better support for Wayland and is extremely beautiful.

That's in the eye of the beholder.

...

Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Papers or it didn't happen.

In many ways, SUSE Linux Enterprise is the oddball here. The switch to GNOME occurred during that point in time where Novell didn't particularly care about SLE, and they had acquired Ximian, who invested quite heavily into the GNOME ecosystem (in part because Miguel de Icaza, who ran Ximian, helped create GNOME).

If anything, I'm more surprised that SUSE Linux Enterprise didn't switch back...

I disagree. I think GNOME makes the better sense for an Enterprise distributions I explained my thoughts as to why, at length, with the KDE project some time last year: https://lwn.net/Articles/681631/ https://lwn.net/Articles/681637/ LWN were kind enough to summarise the article if people do not want to read me sprouting on for ages: https://lwn.net/Articles/681417/ The REALLY short version of my opinion is: I do not think the upstream KDE project is positioned, structured, and responsive in a way that makes sense for an Enterprise distribution. I also think that the current offerings of the KDE project are not of sufficient quality to justify being the default in any community distribution, not even openSUSE. Neither of my above opinions should be read imply any sort of negativity towards OUR KDE team. I have a very, very, very high level of respect, admiration, amazement, and more for our openSUSE KDE team. Their exceptional efforts despite the hurdles in-front of them do not subtract from my opinion that KDE upstream makes things harder than necessary to live with them. KDE is openSUSE's current default for historical reasons. I do not mind if it continues to be so. If this debate is to be opened again, I would advocate for the following: Tumbleweed with no default - Because Tumbleweed aims for a more advanced user who should be able to pick between KDE, GNOME, or whatever they want easily enough Leap with GNOME default - Because that is the standard desktop environment of not only SLES, but RHEL, CentOS, Debian, and now even Ubuntu. Even if we ignore my above feelings regarding the KDE proejct, given Leap's close relationship to SLES and direct support of SLES packages from SUSE, GNOME should be the showcase desktop environment in that distribution. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Apr 13, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 13 April 2017 at 15:29, Neal Gompa wrote:

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On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Thursday 2017-04-13 14:53, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

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Hello, most Linux distributions are using GNOME by default, including:

Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu starting with v18.04, RHEL and most of it's derivatives, and even SUSE Linux enterprise; so why openSUSE is using KDE by default?

Why not? Why does everyone have to use GNOME? If your argument carried, we should all be using Windows, not GNOME.

...

GNOME is more stable, has better support for Wayland and is extremely beautiful.

That's in the eye of the beholder.

...

Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Papers or it didn't happen.

In many ways, SUSE Linux Enterprise is the oddball here. The switch to GNOME occurred during that point in time where Novell didn't particularly care about SLE, and they had acquired Ximian, who invested quite heavily into the GNOME ecosystem (in part because Miguel de Icaza, who ran Ximian, helped create GNOME).

If anything, I'm more surprised that SUSE Linux Enterprise didn't switch back...

I disagree. I think GNOME makes the better sense for an Enterprise distributions

I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too. ...

The REALLY short version of my opinion is:

I do not think the upstream KDE project is positioned, structured, and responsive in a way that makes sense for an Enterprise distribution.

I also think that the current offerings of the KDE project are not of sufficient quality to justify being the default in any community distribution, not even openSUSE.

Neither of my above opinions should be read imply any sort of negativity towards OUR KDE team. I have a very, very, very high level of respect, admiration, amazement, and more for our openSUSE KDE team.

Their exceptional efforts despite the hurdles in-front of them do not subtract from my opinion that KDE upstream makes things harder than necessary to live with them.

WOW, that was some confusing wording. Are they unresponsive and lack structure or are they amazing? OUR KDE == Part of the upstream KDE, I’d hope. Personally, I hated KDE because it was all about gears, squares and odd bizarro shapes. [1] And GNOME is ugly too. The entire thing needs to be dropped in a ditch. Yes, we need one and to focus on one to ensure it works fine. GNOME nor KDE are it for me on the Enterprise side… For openSUSE, I’d like to see a desktop without the wobbly graphics and the magic that once was cool and that now is just stupid, and a desktop that is well documented (which is lacking for all Distributions) [1] https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZHTfdKAkLLw/Um1xNgXcmFI/AAAAAAAAEpI/RjdZH...

On 2017-04-13 17:43, Mathias Homann wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 13. April 2017, 17:34:07 CEST schrieb Alejandro Bonilla:

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I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too.

a graphical desktop on a SERVER?

no thanks.

Yes, sure. Doesn't mean you have to use it, but some people want to be modern and work at the server with a full desktop instead of the ancient console. >:-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-13 20:01, opensuse@maridonkers.info wrote:

On 13-04-17 19:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 17:43, Mathias Homann wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 13. April 2017, 17:34:07 CEST schrieb Alejandro Bonilla:

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I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too.

a graphical desktop on a SERVER?

no thanks. Yes, sure. Doesn't mean you have to use it, but some people want to be modern and work at the server with a full desktop instead of the ancient console. >:-)

A GUI on a server should not be necessary. It only increases software size on the server, hence increases maintenance and decreases robustness and stability.

Millions of people disagree :-P If you refuse to give then the GUI, they will stay with Windows. What many people do is handle the server remotely from another machine, graphically. But on many small places I have been, the server has full keyboard and display (with mouse, of course), and of course, it is used graphically and directly, not remotely. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

opensuse@maridonkers.info wrote:

On 13-04-17 19:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 17:43, Mathias Homann wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 13. April 2017, 17:34:07 CEST schrieb Alejandro Bonilla:

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I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too.

a graphical desktop on a SERVER?

no thanks. Yes, sure. Doesn't mean you have to use it, but some people want to be modern and work at the server with a full desktop instead of the ancient console. >:-)

A GUI on a server should not be necessary. It only increases software size on the server, hence increases maintenance and decreases robustness and stability.

Yep. A GUI is just not necessary on a Linux server. Completely superflous. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.7°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2017-04-13 23:25, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:

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Yes, sure. Doesn't mean you have to use it, but some people want to be modern and work at the server with a full desktop instead of the ancient console. >:-)

Yes. Such people/ professors exist... I was surprised too. We have got a professor who wants to teach Linux via RDP. He doesn't want to use ssh for that. I spoke with our admin at the university about that. He said that's a requirement by a professor/ Linux user. So we need the graphical desktop and xrdp. I'm thinking about a solution for that ( as a student representative of the AG laboratories) now.

Give them x2go. I hear there has even been a demo involving just a web browser on the client side (but I do not remember where this particular subproject lives). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-13 17:43, Mathias Homann wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 13. April 2017, 17:34:07 CEST schrieb Alejandro Bonilla:

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I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too.

a graphical desktop on a SERVER?

no thanks.

Yes, sure. Doesn't mean you have to use it, but some people want to be modern and work at the server with a full desktop instead of the ancient console. >:-)

Not many. You can hardly get a monitor that'll fit in a 19" rack anymore. (except 2nd hand). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 04:40 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 17:43, Mathias Homann wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 13. April 2017, 17:34:07 CEST schrieb Alejandro Bonilla:

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I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too.

a graphical desktop on a SERVER?

no thanks.

Yes, sure. Doesn't mean you have to use it, but some people want to be modern and work at the server with a full desktop instead of the ancient console. >:-)

Not many. You can hardly get a monitor that'll fit in a 19" rack anymore. (except 2nd hand).

Monitor or not says nothing about GUI or non-GUI. KVM switches or KVM via iAMT or ipmi are very common for servers and are actually nothing else than remote monitors. Even all my qemu VMs have virtual graphic boards and monitors (via VNC) which I use sometimes to access the console in case of trouble or for initial installation. This works often better than serial console. Actually I have not a single VM or real server without graphic/Monitor (except some openWRT routers with serial console only). But I have even servers where GUI/WM is running. Sometimes you have to use proprietary software which comes with GUI only. Moreover although I always try to avoid GUI for myself. I can understand that non-experienced admins want to have a GUI instead of terminal. And this is not only about X. Webmin or phpmyadmin are also GUIs ... made for nothing else but servers. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13 April 2017 at 17:34, Alejandro Bonilla wrote:

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If anything, I'm more surprised that SUSE Linux Enterprise didn't switch back...

I disagree. I think GNOME makes the better sense for an Enterprise distributions

I would disagree as well. XFCE would be way better for SLES, and very likely SLED too.

As you replied to this with your @suse.com email address I will politely point out that your employers Product Management and Development teams think differently than you ;) Being a bit less of an asshole, I think XFCE is great, but has its own flaws when it comes to being a choice for an Enterprise distro Ultimately, I believe the biggest requirement for an enterprise distro is trust Can the distro provider (SUSE) rely on the DE provider (GNOME, XFCE, KDE) to be a viable partner to work alongside them for years and to produce stuff they can rely on for years I think KDE is deficient in this area, for all the reasons in the links I already cited above. I think XFCE is deficient in this area, because it's development cadence is way too slow, even for a conservative enterprise distribution - 2 years since it's last stable release, how on earth are SUSE going to be able to provide their customers with a modern userspace or even 'middle-space' (eg. systemd et al) when XFCE is moving that slow and probably requiring ancient versions of everything in the process?

...

...

The REALLY short version of my opinion is:

I do not think the upstream KDE project is positioned, structured, and responsive in a way that makes sense for an Enterprise distribution.

I also think that the current offerings of the KDE project are not of sufficient quality to justify being the default in any community distribution, not even openSUSE.

Neither of my above opinions should be read imply any sort of negativity towards OUR KDE team. I have a very, very, very high level of respect, admiration, amazement, and more for our openSUSE KDE team.

Their exceptional efforts despite the hurdles in-front of them do not subtract from my opinion that KDE upstream makes things harder than necessary to live with them.

WOW, that was some confusing wording. Are they unresponsive and lack structure or are they amazing?

OUR KDE == Part of the upstream KDE, I’d hope.

With the way KDE works, no, not really For the purposes of this discussion I do not consider our openSUSE KDE team != Part of upstream KDE. Luca sorta is but AFAIK he isn't a maintainer of any part of KDE in practical terms. Call it cultural differences, result of community decisions, ivory tower mentality, or just a fact of life, but upstream KDE maintainers pretty much do their own thing, and our team is pretty much packaging, polishing, and altering what upstream KDE do. This isn't necessarily a criticism of how KDE upstream do their thing - lots of upstream projects work in a similar way, but when we're back to the 'requirements for an enterprise DE', that really undermines the whole 'able work with you for years' requirement.

And GNOME is ugly too. The entire thing needs to be dropped in a ditch.

See my earlier reminder ;) I sure hope your opinions on GNOME are not part of your SLES/SLED pitch as a Sales Engineer ;)

For openSUSE, I’d like to see a desktop without the wobbly graphics and the magic that once was cool and that now is just stupid, and a desktop that is well documented (which is lacking for all Distributions)

I actually consider GNOME exceptionally well documented, from https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-help/stable/ covering what users need to know, to https://help.gnome.org/admin/system-admin-guide/stable/ for admins and https://developer.gnome.org/ for Devs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13 April 2017 at 18:11, Aleksa Sarai wrote:

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Call it cultural differences, result of community decisions, ivory tower mentality, or just a fact of life, but upstream KDE maintainers pretty much do their own thing, and our team is pretty much packaging, polishing, and altering what upstream KDE do.

When did openSUSE stop being the premier KDE distribution?

I think openSUSE remains the best distribution from which to get KDE from. But it's clear KDE upstream have their own preference of premier KDE distribution now (Neon), so I think openSUSE's efforts are best spent on being a premier distribution, rather than a premier KDE distribution. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 13 April 2017 20:33:37 Richard Brown wrote:

I think openSUSE remains the best distribution from which to get KDE from. But it's clear KDE upstream have their own preference of premier KDE distribution now (Neon), so I think openSUSE's efforts are best spent on being a premier distribution, rather than a premier KDE distribution.

The declared intention of the KDE community is that Neon is one distribution amongst many others, not the premier one. The Neon people are certainly convinced of their distro, just as openSUSE is of their own distro. KDE does put a lot of effort into supporting other distributions, with openSUSE having a prominent place there. It goes both ways, though. The uninformed hostility shown in this thread doesn't help in how KDE cares about openSUSE. A constructive relationship is good for both sides, openSUSE as well as KDE. One of openSUSE's strengths is that it provides choice to its users. Let's build on this and work together to deliver a good KDE experience. This is how openSUSE and KDE can both win. -- Cornelius Schumacher -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13.04.2017 17:47, Richard Brown wrote:

I think XFCE is deficient in this area, because it's development cadence is way too slow, even for a conservative enterprise distribution - 2 years since it's last stable release,

So what are you missing?

how on earth are SUSE going to be able to provide their customers with a modern userspace or even 'middle-space' (eg. systemd et al) when XFCE is moving that slow and probably requiring ancient versions of everything in the process?

Care to give an example? Something that's not working for you? -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18.04.2017 17:59, Daniele wrote:

Il 18/04/2017 17:33, Stefan Seyfried ha scritto:

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On 13.04.2017 17:47, Richard Brown wrote:

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how on earth are SUSE going to be able to provide their customers with a modern userspace or even 'middle-space' (eg. systemd et al) when XFCE is moving that slow and probably requiring ancient versions of everything in the process?

Care to give an example? Something that's not working for you?

Nowdays, 4k/hidpi (hidpi for sure) monitor are not so rare and if I'm not wrong, xfce does not support hidpi. Maybe when

What is needed to "support hidpi"? It's just a display with a higher DPI, isn't it? I'm using XFCE on DPI from 75 to 175 and it just works. And I'd still like an example where "ancient versions of everything" neeeded by XFCE are hindering overall progress (simply because then I could work on getting rid of those requirements).

will be full ported to gtk3.. Gtk3 needed for wayland too..

What benefit will Wayland bring to SLES12 (does it even include Wayland? Can you run anything useful in Wayland?). Richard was talking about XFCE being "too slow for Enterprise". I'm quite sure that slow desktop development is hugely favored by many (most?) Enterprise customers.

Good to have xfce in the distro but not as default, IMHO. -- Stefan Seyfried

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il 19/04/2017 08:56, Stefan Seyfried ha scritto:

On 18.04.2017 17:59, Daniele wrote:

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Il 18/04/2017 17:33, Stefan Seyfried ha scritto:

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On 13.04.2017 17:47, Richard Brown wrote:

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how on earth are SUSE going to be able to provide their customers with a modern userspace or even 'middle-space' (eg. systemd et al) when XFCE is moving that slow and probably requiring ancient versions of everything in the process?

Care to give an example? Something that's not working for you?

Nowdays, 4k/hidpi (hidpi for sure) monitor are not so rare and if I'm not wrong, xfce does not support hidpi. Maybe when

What is needed to "support hidpi"? It's just a display with a higher DPI, isn't it? I'm using XFCE on DPI from 75 to 175 and it just works. And I'd still like an example where "ancient versions of everything" neeeded by XFCE are hindering overall progress (simply because then I could work on getting rid of those requirements). Not sure about hidpi and high resolution, you can workaround some issue scaling desktop with xrand, setting custom dpi, big fonts and icons but it lacks "native" support. I don't have hidpi monitor... :(

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will be full ported to gtk3.. Gtk3 needed for wayland too..

What benefit will Wayland bring to SLES12 (does it even include Wayland? Can you run anything useful in Wayland?). Richard was talking about XFCE being "too slow for Enterprise". I'm quite sure that slow desktop development is hugely favored by many (most?) Enterprise customers. Well, xorg will stay for years and I don't know if wayland support is important and included in SLES.

Mine are just some generic thoughts about *potential* problems/limits in software that you have to maintain for years. Enterprise it's not my world, so I don't know.. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2017-04-13 19:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-13 15:43, Richard Brown wrote:

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KDE is openSUSE's current default for historical reasons.

Historically, SuSE had no default.

Stop with your alternate facts already! http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst1-EQYhDOsX.png http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst2-6rzVkkkN.png (I can give you some historical SUSE CD ISOs.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/13/2017 10:17 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-13 20:54, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Thursday 2017-04-13 19:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 15:43, Richard Brown wrote:

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KDE is openSUSE's current default for historical reasons.

Historically, SuSE had no default.

Stop with your alternate facts already!

http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst1-EQYhDOsX.png http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst2-6rzVkkkN.png

I don't know what you want to tell me with those. :-?

It shows that KDE 1.0 was already the default for SUSE 6.0. AFAIR KDE 2 and 3 were also always default in openSUSE. I think at least since about 20 years SUSE/openSUSE nether had another default than KDE, except SLE-12 or a few openSUSE releases without any default at all. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 01:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-14 12:45, Rüdiger Meier wrote:

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On 04/13/2017 10:17 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 20:54, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Thursday 2017-04-13 19:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 15:43, Richard Brown wrote:

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KDE is openSUSE's current default for historical reasons.

Historically, SuSE had no default.

Stop with your alternate facts already!

http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst1-EQYhDOsX.png http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst2-6rzVkkkN.png

I don't know what you want to tell me with those. :-?

It shows that KDE 1.0 was already the default for SUSE 6.0.

Sorry, I was expecting the tick box in yast2 style installation screen :-)

Yeah, AFAIR the switch to yast2 also caused controversial discussions on the lists at these times ;) cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 2017-04-13 22:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-13 20:54, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Thursday 2017-04-13 19:17, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-04-13 15:43, Richard Brown wrote:

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KDE is openSUSE's current default for historical reasons.

Historically, SuSE had no default.

Stop with your alternate facts already!

http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst1-EQYhDOsX.png http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst2-6rzVkkkN.png

I don't know what you want to tell me with those. :-?

It means that, if you don't have a clue (such as in this instance about SUSE's defaults), it's better to shut up for once. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 2017-04-14 19:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...

...

...

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KDE is openSUSE's current default for historical reasons.

Historically, SuSE had no default.

Stop with your alternate facts already!

http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst1-EQYhDOsX.png http://picpaste.de/suse060-inst2-6rzVkkkN.png

I don't know what you want to tell me with those. :-?

It means that, if you don't have a clue (such as in this instance about SUSE's defaults), it's better to shut up for once.

What a nice use of language, in response to an honest question.

There is no question in the quoted text, assuming we agree on treating ":-?" as a smiley and not as an unconventional way to set a question. Anyway, this is not the first time you have stated a conjecture as a fact. Irrespective of the chosen language color, you should still heed the general recommendation: don't post it as a fact when you can't prove it (or alternatively, don't post at all). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13/04/17 09:05 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Thursday 2017-04-13 14:53, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

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Hello, most Linux distributions are using GNOME by default, including:

Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu starting with v18.04, RHEL and most of it's derivatives, and even SUSE Linux enterprise; so why openSUSE is using KDE by default?

Why not? Why does everyone have to use GNOME? If your argument carried, we should all be using Windows, not GNOME.

I might speculate that on lists devoted to Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, RHEL there are going to be people asking why Gnome is default and not KDE -- or LXDE ... or whatever they favour.

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GNOME is more stable, has better support for Wayland and is extremely beautiful.

That's in the eye of the beholder.

I'm sure that I can configure KDE to be more beautiful and configure Gnome to be more ugly. So what? Themes, wallpapers, 'eye candy'. Is this what really counts?

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Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Papers or it didn't happen.

That's a bit like asking if Ford cars are safer than GM. If you run Thunderbird, Firefox, then the issue isn't KDE or Gnome. Most of the security problems in the modern world lie the other side of the keyboard from the computer. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 02:10 PM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

On Thu, 2017-04-13 at 15:40 +0200, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

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There are hundreds distributions at https://distrowatch.com/ You listed few. Does it prove anything?

Those are most popular and big Linux distros.

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Isn't KDE more configurable, powerful, feature-rich, with more modern architecture, etc.?

Yes, KDE is extremely configurable and feature-rich, but I think this is a bad approach, because KDE is a little confusing, I'm not fan of minimalism, but I think it is better that KDE reduce some less-usable features and focus on stability and productivity.

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What does prevent anyone from install and use anything he/she likes?

It is not about personal preference, it is about *technical competence*.

...

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Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Any evidence? No? If not, this is just useless blah blah statement without any value.

I don't know about security of KDE, I asked that question in the hope that someone provide a good technical description. Because GNOME is more used than KDE and is used by big distros, I got the impression that GNOME is more secure than KDE, of course I know that GNOME is not impeccable in this field, for example, WebKitGTK+ has many security vulnerabilities:

https://webkitgtk.org/security.html

134 vulnerabilities only in one Security Advisory:

https://www.google.com/search?q=WSA-2015-0002

Counting security advisories for desktops isn't a fair comparison, I can find you many a security advisory for something that is pretty trivial and pointless given the access a untrusted app has in X11 anyway. Looking at browser engines is equally unfair, as they get a far greater focus due to more often running untrusted code. The Qt Webkit module probably has a similar Advisory with similar vun's given they share a bunch of code. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 04/14/2017 10:36 AM, Martin Herkt wrote:

As someone who isn’t involved with KDE development or openSUSE KDE packaging, KDE seems extremely unpolished to me. There’s just so much old and half-baked crap that the entire project is suffering from. Someone really needs to take out the trash, even if it means sacrificing functionality.

To me, it seems like the KDE project lacks direction. It’s like everybody’s just hacking on their own toy projects until they get bored with it, and nobody wants to be responsible for anything. There have been fundraising campains in the past, but it’s never been about fixing the architectural mess (some say it has “grown organically,”and to me it looks more like terminal cancer). This needs to be dealt with, or it’s going to be hard to take this project seriously enough to make it a default choice for anything.

[...] Dolphin, KMail, KWrite etc. are still great applications that I don’t want to miss.

IMO it's a pity that so many nice applications are bundled with KDE. When I was more into it (many years ago) I've had the impression that KDE wants to sponge up any existing Qt based apps. For example kcachegrind. There is no reason to build it for KDE. It builds fine against QT only as well. Unfortunately openSUSE does not ship qcachegrind. I guess if more of the existing smaller KDE applications would have been developed independent of the central KDE repo then either KDE base would have been evolved in a more stable/usable way or many of these smaller projects would have switched to Qt only. Both possibilities would be better than what we have now. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-14, Fri 13:29:54 CEST stakanov wrote:

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 12:06:49, Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

Both possibilities would be

better than what we have now.

Why?

IMO because it’d be better for the KDE project to focus on the core experience while some applications could be split off to provide benefits to all environments, not just KDE. NIH syndrome is bad. There’s no good reason to keep gnome-keyring and kwallet around when independent password managers like KeePassXC could be integrated instead (just think of people who are using more than one machine/OS). There’s no reason for both gvfs and kio to exist when the same could be achieved with better FUSE integration. There’s no reason to have a completely useless KDE-specific web browser (as much as I used to like it in the old days). There’s no reason to have a KDE-specific BitTorrent client that is unable to seed properly and tends to crash. There’s no reason for a KDE-specific terminal emulator (qterminal exists now). There’s no need for most of kded. There’s no need for a KDE-specific screenshot utility. There’s no need for Calligra. In short, putting tons of completely superfluous and half-baked code out of commission and eventually replacing it by integrating existing solutions which are actively maintained by larger communities might be the way to go.

On 04/14/2017 02:15 PM, Martin Herkt wrote:

On 2017-04-14, Fri 13:29:54 CEST stakanov wrote:

...

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 12:06:49, Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

Both possibilities would be

better than what we have now.

Why?

IMO because it’d be better for the KDE project to focus on the core experience while some applications could be split off to provide benefits to all environments, not just KDE. NIH syndrome is bad. There’s no good reason to keep gnome-keyring and kwallet around when independent password managers like KeePassXC could be integrated instead (just think of people who are using more than one machine/OS). There’s no reason for both gvfs and kio to exist when the same could be achieved with better FUSE integration. There’s no reason to have a completely useless KDE-specific web browser (as much as I used to like it in the old days). There’s no reason to have a KDE-specific BitTorrent client that is unable to seed properly and tends to crash. There’s no reason for a KDE-specific terminal emulator (qterminal exists now). There’s no need for most of kded. There’s no need for a KDE-specific screenshot utility. There’s no need for Calligra.

In short, putting tons of completely superfluous and half-baked code out of commission and eventually replacing it by integrating existing solutions which are actively maintained by larger communities might be the way to go.

Moreover if ktorrent and other mentioned programs would be developed independently then one could just easily try out a newer (probably fixed) version without upgrading whole kde which brings usually much more problems and surprises as we've learned from the past. It's about "trust" as mentioned in these very long and good posts from Richard Brown. I've learned to not trust any K* programs anymore. For example I was using kopete many years ago as ICQ messenger. Because AOL was changing their protocol every few months kopete stopped working very often. Following the fixed kopete upstream was nearly impossible without also upgrading whole KDE or better the whole distro. I've learned from such experiences that I should avoid any K* programs to have less pain in future. And KDE does not seem to be willing to improve things. Instead they just go one step further into the wrong direction, distributing their own distro to have even more freedom to make dependencies and incompatibilities worse. I don't believe that such a KDE distro will bring back many users. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 04:07 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:19:54 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

Moreover if ktorrent and other mentioned programs would be developed independently then one could just easily try out a newer (probably

You *can* do that already. You don't need to install Plasma to run ktorrent.

And they're developed independently. In particular, ktorrent is part of the "extragear" group of applications, meaning that they have their own release schedule and their own pace of development. They have no ties with either Frameworks, Plasma, or Applications.

I've just tried for fun to install ktorrent and gave up after 30 minutes. I don't think there is a way to install it without many other deps from the kde project. There is no documentation about what dependencies are needed. I can only run cmake again and again, downloading and installing more and more deps from KDE and hoping that finally it would not complain anymore. I'd say it does not look like ktorrent is made for users who simply wants to install a torrent client quickly. Maybe people who are familiar with the KDE tree like you may manage this faster than me, for me it's too painful.

Other examples include yakuake, konversation, labplot...

Haven't checked them but I know also two good examples qcachegrind and troijta which have no kde but only Qt deps. Still the fact that they are hosted on kde.org makes them suspect to me (the "trust" thing). I'm using qcachegrind (no alternative) but I would not use troijta, since it was moved to KDE in 2012. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:11:56 -0400 Todd Rme wrote:

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Rüdiger Meier wrote:

...

On 04/14/2017 04:07 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:19:54 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

Moreover if ktorrent and other mentioned programs would be developed independently then one could just easily try out a newer (probably

...

You *can* do that already. You don't need to install Plasma to run ktorrent.

And they're developed independently. In particular, ktorrent is part of the "extragear" group of applications, meaning that they have their own release schedule and their own pace of development. They have no ties with either Frameworks, Plasma, or Applications.

I've just tried for fun to install ktorrent and gave up after 30 minutes. I don't think there is a way to install it without many other deps from the kde project. There is no documentation about what dependencies are needed. I can only run cmake again and again, downloading and installing more and more deps from KDE and hoping that finally it would not complain anymore. I'd say it does not look like ktorrent is made for users who simply wants to install a torrent client quickly.

Maybe people who are familiar with the KDE tree like you may manage this faster than me, for me it's too painful.

The dependencies are listed in CMakeLists.txt, and they all seem like pretty straightforward things that something like ktorrent would need.

But when it comes to building from source, generally it is easier to use kdesrc-build, which handles all of that for you. GNOME has something similar called Jhbuild. Lots of projects have similar tools to make dependency handling easier.

This isn't a particular issue with KDE, any useful piece of software will require multiple dependencies. I don't see why you think projects that are part of the KDE community are particularly bad in this regard. On the contrary, a lot of work has been going on to limit the dependencies of KDE software to only what is really needed.

...

...

Other examples include yakuake, konversation, labplot...

Haven't checked them but I know also two good examples qcachegrind and troijta which have no kde but only Qt deps. Still the fact that they are hosted on kde.org makes them suspect to me (the "trust" thing). I'm using qcachegrind (no alternative) but I would not use troijta, since it was moved to KDE in 2012.

So you are saying you explicitly distrust anything and everything that is part of the KDE community, merely based on the fact that they choose to associate with that community?

Given the quality of software delivered by the project over the years? Totally. My guess is the average quality of anything k* is below the average of random piece of software downloaded off the interwebz. That's been my experience over the years trying some k* applications or the whole DE from time to time. I mean one of the responsibilities of a project *is* to keep software in shape or trash it as has been said numerous times. Otherwise the people not really familiar with the project structure judge it by all the 'extra gears' that are not part of it but pre-installed by default or recommended by KDE. It is probably aggravated by the sponging up of applications and renaming them k*. It is hard to let the thing go and not getting connected with it when it starts going under once you made it obvious part of the DE. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Michal Suchanek wrote:

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:11:56 -0400 Todd Rme wrote:

...

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Rüdiger Meier wrote:

...

On 04/14/2017 04:07 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:19:54 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

Moreover if ktorrent and other mentioned programs would be developed independently then one could just easily try out a newer (probably

...

You *can* do that already. You don't need to install Plasma to run ktorrent.

And they're developed independently. In particular, ktorrent is part of the "extragear" group of applications, meaning that they have their own release schedule and their own pace of development. They have no ties with either Frameworks, Plasma, or Applications.

I've just tried for fun to install ktorrent and gave up after 30 minutes. I don't think there is a way to install it without many other deps from the kde project. There is no documentation about what dependencies are needed. I can only run cmake again and again, downloading and installing more and more deps from KDE and hoping that finally it would not complain anymore. I'd say it does not look like ktorrent is made for users who simply wants to install a torrent client quickly.

Maybe people who are familiar with the KDE tree like you may manage this faster than me, for me it's too painful.

The dependencies are listed in CMakeLists.txt, and they all seem like pretty straightforward things that something like ktorrent would need.

But when it comes to building from source, generally it is easier to use kdesrc-build, which handles all of that for you. GNOME has something similar called Jhbuild. Lots of projects have similar tools to make dependency handling easier.

This isn't a particular issue with KDE, any useful piece of software will require multiple dependencies. I don't see why you think projects that are part of the KDE community are particularly bad in this regard. On the contrary, a lot of work has been going on to limit the dependencies of KDE software to only what is really needed.

...

...

Other examples include yakuake, konversation, labplot...

Haven't checked them but I know also two good examples qcachegrind and troijta which have no kde but only Qt deps. Still the fact that they are hosted on kde.org makes them suspect to me (the "trust" thing). I'm using qcachegrind (no alternative) but I would not use troijta, since it was moved to KDE in 2012.

So you are saying you explicitly distrust anything and everything that is part of the KDE community, merely based on the fact that they choose to associate with that community?

Given the quality of software delivered by the project over the years?

Totally.

My guess is the average quality of anything k* is below the average of random piece of software downloaded off the interwebz.

That's been my experience over the years trying some k* applications or the whole DE from time to time.

Oh please, this is wrong to the point of being trolling. Quite a lot of KDE applications (such as k3b, Digikam, Kate, kstars, marble, cantor, and KDE Connect) are considered the best of their type on Linux, and some, like Krita, are considered the best of their type on any platform. And it is not like g* software is uniformly top-of-its-class. Some KDE versions of programs are better, some GNOME versions of programs are better, and for some it is a matter of personal preference. But to claim "the average quality of anything k* is below the average of random piece of software downloaded off the interwebz" is just blatantly false.

It is probably aggravated by the sponging up of applications and renaming them k*.

Such as...?

It is hard to let the thing go and not getting connected with it when it starts going under once you made it obvious part of the DE.

Again, such as...? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 21:26:15, Michal Suchánek ha scritto:

Such as konqueror? It's a kind of zombie of a web browser that nobody can take seriously for years already but it's still *the* KDE web browser .. because k* I like Konqueror. It has gotten too little attention. But still it is, IMO, better the then google chromium crap. Does not crack on my privacy. And sometimes, when all fails, well, it happens that konqueror still works. Question is: why does it bother you. Uninstall it. There are AFAIK no dependencies that forces you to use it.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 01:54 PM, Michal Suchánek wrote:

The thing is: user installs *the* KDE web browser. It fails to render their favorite web page. That's a bad KDE experience because it is the KDE web browser.

In my experience, the user install Firefox or Chrome, not knowing that there is such a thing as "the KDE web browser." If the user is knowledgeable enough to know that, then the user is generally emotionally mature enough not to get upset if it doesn't work and will simply use a different web browser--likely Firefox or Chrome. Plenty of KDE things don't work. Plenty of GNOME things don't work, too. Pick the ones you like the best and use those, because thanks to a lot of people's hard work, KDE or QT programs look and generally behave fine in GNOME, and vice versa. I'm typing this in Thunderbird, running in KDE Plasma. Next to it is Firefox, Lollypop (GTK), Kate (QT/KDE). THere are some bugs, of course (all tracked in bugzillas), but they generally play nice. No need to get religious about it. Nate -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Em Sex, 2017-04-14 às 14:17 -0600, Nate Graham escreveu:

   Plenty of KDE things don't work. Plenty of GNOME things don't work, too.   Pick the ones you like the best and use those, because thanks to a lot   of people's hard work, KDE or QT programs look and generally behave fine   in GNOME, and vice versa. I'm typing this in Thunderbird, running in KDE   Plasma. Next to it is Firefox, Lollypop (GTK), Kate (QT/KDE). THere are   some bugs, of course (all tracked in bugzillas), but they generally play   nice. No need to get religious about it.    Nate

I agree. All the desktop environments have pros and cons, but generally all of them work well, so there is no best. There are DEs that fit better for some people, while other DEs fit better for other people. As the original post is talking about KDE versus GNOME, I would like to share my opinion and my experience with those two DEs. I use Linux for a few years and I went through KDE 3.x to 5.x. It seems like the KDE guys like to reinvent the wheel from times to times (maybe they have learned  that with Microsoft). I started with Kurumin 7.0 (KDE 3.5.5) [1] and, as it was discontinued, I switched to Debian 5.0 (KDE 3.5.10) [2]. KDE then was awesome. I've read a lot of people talking about KDE 4.x, so I switched to Kubuntu [3] to give it a try (not sure the version, but I think it was the 10.04 with KDE 4.4.2). KDE was well then, but after 3 unsuccessfull dist-upgrades (I think it is impossible to upgrade from one version to another on Ubuntu, which on the other hand works flawlessly on Debian and openSUSE), I came back to Debian, then 6.0 with KDE 4.4.5. But, despite Debian's stability, its KDE version seemed not to work as well for me. That was when I gave GNOME 2.30 a try. I used it for more than a year, it was working very well. That was when a friend of mine talked to me about openSUSE, I gave it a try and I'm using it since then: 12.2 (KDE 4.8.4), 12.3 (KDE 4.10), 13.1 (KDE 4.11.2), 13.2 (KDE 4.14.2) [4], all successfull zypper dup ;) KDE was finally awesome again, when... Leap 42.1 was released with KDE 5.4.2. Everything broke up again. I almost gave up on Leap [5], but then I came back to it and managed to use a newer version of KDE present on an OBS repo, the same that was later released with Leap 42.2 (KDE 5.8.2). That release was going better than the previous one, but I was still not happy with KDE (and fearing that in the future KDE 6.x would brake up everything again). I've read someone saying here that KDE better manages his/her two monitors. For me, using KDE 5.x with two monitors was a pain. Many times I had to reboot for my two monitors to work as I had setup them. And I've read many people on the Internet reporting similar issues. kscreenlocker was also a pain: often, I had to switch to a terminal (say, tty1), login as root and run loginctl unlock- sessions to unlock the screen. After testing many DEs within Leap 42.2, I'm using GNOME 3.20 for a few months now and I decided to definitely move to it. For my use cases, I found that GNOME is working better than KDE. For me, GNOME simply, magically works, as KDE used to be. On the other hand, leaving my disappointments with KDE for a while, I agree that openSUSE is the best KDE distro. It's true that I haven't tested Neon nor all the KDE distros available, but comparing openSUSE with the other distros I used (and some I have tested), the work of the openSUSE KDE team is awesome! The fact that they were able to bring the latest stable upstream release to a stable distribution as they did with Leap 42.2 shows how their packaging process is mature and safe. I think that KDE problems come from upstream, the openSUSE guys do what is possible to integrate KDE into the whole distribution. It's easy to see that people from other distros report the same bugs as the openSUSE KDE users report. In short, my opinion: if you ask me what is the best DE, I say the best DE is the one that best fits your needs. If you try KDE and GNOME and think KDE is the best, go on with KDE. If you think GNOME is the best, go on with GNOME. But if you ask me what I'm using now, I'm going to say I'm using GNOME. I think that "we should move to GNOME because many distros are doing that" is an invalid argument. "We should move to GNOME because it is better", maybe, but that is arguable: it is better for me, not necessarily it is better for everyone. "We should move to GNOME because it is more stable, it does not reinvent the wheel many times and things are more likely to keep working", well, I think that is more a feeling than a scientific argument, but that is by far the impression I have of the GNOME project. I would go with that. Antonio The Linux Kamarada Project https://kamarada.github.io/ [1] https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=kurumin [2] https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=debian [3] https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=kubuntu [4] https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=opensuse [5] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2016-07/msg00388.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 02:25 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Michal Suchánek composed on 2017-04-14 21:54 (UTC+0200):

...

Yes, Chrome is bad with always asking Google if it can fart. Either of these are browsers that work for most of the web which is something Konqueror cannot claim.

Konq provides functionality not offered by the latest available version of any of the following: Chrome Chromium Edge IE Opera Qupzilla Safari

Does Kong support SmartCard authentication through libcoolkey and pcscd? Firefox and Chrome support this, but it would be nice to have an alternative. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Robert Kaiser composed on 2017-04-15 01:18 (UTC+0200):

Felix Miata composed:

...

One particular functionality I have in mind is to display an object in the browser window with predictably accurate stated physical dimensions. IOW, one inch always measures one inch; one cm always measures one cm; 12pt always measures 12/72", etc.

Note that is not how they are defined in CSS officially. Actually, 1cm = 96px/2.54according to official web standards,

Whether what any CSS "web standard" says, official or otherwise, depends on context. The issue here is virtually the same usurpation that occurred with well established decimal multiples being hijacked by the binary computing world, trying to redefine units with previously uncontroverted meanings. (kilo, mega, giga, etc.) At least those eventually got a reasonable fix.[1] A centimeter isn't a centimeter unless it measures an ISO standard centimeter. When I open a web page that says something measures a centimeter, if my ruler doesn't measure it a centimeter, it isn't a centimeter, regardless what is contained in CSS standards. Currently on a PC screen, a centimeter that actually measures a centimeter is only possible either: 1-by chance (if physical display density in fact measures 96 DPI), or 2-using an unsupported old version of any of several current browsers, or 3-using a current Gecko browser, along with proprietary CSS styles, or 4-using a KHTML browser

... https://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#absolute-lengths ... reference pixel...about... Any browser not adhering to that standard correctly is actually wrong, whatever you believe otherwise. ;-)

Depends whether one is trying to display objects that measure ISO standard linear lengths, or something else; an actual size, rather than some apparent size from an arbitrary viewing distance. People shouldn't have to print a web page to be able to verify a content object measures a specific standard intended size, e.g. "life" size. People should be able to prove a declared size of a screen object with a common measuring tool, without having to resort to hiring an engineer with expensive equipment that can equate angles with lengths. The CSS standard is derelict in omitting any way to do this, particularly in the usurpatory way it transmogrified the support it had. [1] http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. schrieb:

On 2017-04-15 02:45, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Robert Kaiser composed on 2017-04-15 01:18 (UTC+0200):

...

Felix Miata composed:

...

One particular functionality I have in mind is to display an object in the browser window with predictably accurate stated physical dimensions. IOW, one inch always measures one inch; one cm always measures one cm; 12pt always measures 12/72", etc. Note that is not how they are defined in CSS officially. Actually, 1cm = 96px/2.54according to official web standards, Whether what any CSS "web standard" says, official or otherwise, depends on context. The issue here is virtually the same usurpation that occurred with well established decimal multiples being hijacked by the binary computing world, trying to redefine units with previously uncontroverted meanings. (kilo, mega, giga, etc.) At least those eventually got a reasonable fix.[1]

A centimeter isn't a centimeter unless it measures an ISO standard centimeter. When I open a web page that says something measures a centimeter, if my ruler doesn't measure it a centimeter, it isn't a centimeter, regardless what is contained in CSS standards. That's what I would expect, yes. One centimetre measured with a plastic rule right on the screen. Not an apparent size.

For one thing, I was just referring to a standard that web browser manufacturers under the roof of the W3C decided on after a long discussions, and they surely had good reasons. All that said, if you expect 1cm in CSS to be an actual centimeter on whatever surface it's shown on, I hope you never project a website onto a wall (where the browser probably doesn't even know the actual size of the projection) or display it on a giant screen for presentation etc. as anything using your definition of CSS units would probably become invisibly small for the normal viewer. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:07:15 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

Robert Kaiser composed on 2017-04-16 14:22 (UTC+0200):

...

Carlos E. R. composed:

...

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

...

Robert Kaiser composed on 2017-04-15 01:18 (UTC+0200):

...

...

...

...

Felix Miata composed:

...

...

...

...

...

One particular functionality I have in mind is to display an object in the browser window with predictably accurate stated physical dimensions. IOW, one inch always measures one inch; one cm always measures one cm; 12pt always measures 12/72", etc.

...

...

...

...

Note that is not how they are defined in CSS officially. Actually, 1cm = 96px/2.54according to official web standards,

...

...

...

Whether what any CSS "web standard" says, official or otherwise, depends on context. The issue here is virtually the same usurpation that occurred with well established decimal multiples being hijacked by the binary computing world, trying to redefine units with previously uncontroverted meanings. (kilo, mega, giga, etc.) At least those eventually got a reasonable fix.[1]

...

...

...

A centimeter isn't a centimeter unless it measures an ISO standard centimeter. When I open a web page that says something measures a centimeter, if my ruler doesn't measure it a centimeter, it isn't a centimeter, regardless what is contained in CSS standards.

...

...

That's what I would expect, yes. One centimetre measured with a plastic rule right on the screen. Not an apparent size.

...

For one thing, I was just referring to a standard that web browser manufacturers under the roof of the W3C decided on after a long discussions, and they surely had good reasons.

Reasons, yes. Legitimate, in result, not, due to the usurpation of long established meanings of measurement units, as was done with GB, MB, KB, etc.

...

All that said, if you expect 1cm in CSS to be an actual centimeter on whatever surface it's shown on, I hope you never project a website onto a wall (where the browser probably doesn't even know the actual size of the projection) or display it on a giant screen for presentation etc. as anything using your definition of CSS units would probably become invisibly small for the normal viewer.

Again, context matters. Using a wall projector to display something at its actual size one would probably more likely be interested in measuring a displayed object appropriately measured in meters rather than centimeters. Taking a ruler to the display device matters no less using a wall than a PC screen or a handheld device screen. Measuring an object's actual size means at the actual object or the device on which the object is depicted, wherever that be, including on a wall via projection. The CSS spec would have the task of displaying anything at actual size be impossible absent specific hardware, i.e. a display device with physical pixel density of 96 DPI. Luckily for Gecko users there is a workaround, but not because of any standards body specification.

If CSS were implemented as you would like it in browsers and 1cm was actually 1cm on computer screen, 1cm on phone screen and 1cm on wall as projected by a beamer there would be no sane unit for web designers to use to make the web elements visible on all devices. They would have to design a different CSS for every screen size the users might use. One possibility to solve that would be implementing a new unit like 'veiw angle' and deprecating all the old units - pixels, centimeters, points. Given the adoption of such changes web designers W3C rather chose the redefinition of existing units which makes existing sites work seamlessly on any device when implemented according to specification and does not require designers to change to new units. I can see your proposal as vastly inferior solution to creating usable web designs. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-14 21:42, stakanov wrote:

...

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 21:26:15, Michal Suchánek ha scritto:

...

Such as konqueror? It's a kind of zombie of a web browser that nobody can take seriously for years already but it's still *the* KDE web browser .. because k*

I like Konqueror. It has gotten too little attention. But still it is, IMO, better the then google chromium crap. Does not crack on my privacy. And sometimes, when all fails, well, it happens that konqueror still works.

Firefox does not crack on your privacy any more that Konquerer AFAIK. Yes, Chrome is bad with always asking Google if it can fart. Either of these are browsers that work for most of the web which is something Konqueror cannot claim.

...

Question is: why does it bother you. Uninstall it. There are AFAIK no dependencies that forces you to use it.

I do not even install it for years already. The thing is: user installs *the* KDE web browser. It fails to render their favorite web page. That's a bad KDE experience because it is the KDE web browser. Compared to that GNOME used to have GNOME branded Gecko based Galeon. They figured they cannot keep up maintaining it so they just dropped it and nobody heard of it for years - see the difference there?

Thanks

Michal Well, one could then opt to not install it from default but put a pattern. Still, who knows Konqueror appreciate it. Just because a webside doesn't render I have a bad KDE experience? Well, IF a browser is so important for the identification of a DE, then this calls for immediate brush up and polish of of Konqueror, the most important piece of software in KDE? See, IMO, everything, in a harmonic and integrated way, is part of a DE. Thus, it is not by criticizing the surplus and the richness that you are going to tackle the problem. FF with me is so crippled and defended by noscript, selfdestructing cookies, https everywhere, ublock etc that sometimes invasive websites I can simply not open. So with Konqueror that nearly always work. Very few times I needed to go down

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 21:54:52, Michal Suchánek ha scritto: the road of Vivaldi (I am a old age, long year Opera user and still suffer the idiotic decision to drop a winning software for a google chrome fkdup clone). What KDE needs is to close old and unnerving bugs. When you open Kmail the side bar does not have the right size. I am still on kmail4 but: kmail3 was simply perfect, did not loose a mail in years. Did not have problem. With 4 they really screwed it up but finally repaired it at the end. However by reading the bugzilla of KDE this stupid little bug is still there in 5. That makes a lifetime of about ..... 6-8 years for that annoying bug? Another "superbug" is the one appearing with notification sounds. Bug 348414 the mythical "Crash in notification" with a felt 250 duplicates. Still proudly crashing. It does not seem that available software is the problem. Untouched bugs are. And maybe also unclear responsibilities for the different software parts. But I really do not understand the current argumentation against KDE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/19/2017 02:58 AM, Michal Suchánek wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 07:13:48 +0200 stakanov wrote:

...

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 21:54:52, Michal Suchánek ha scritto:

...

On 2017-04-14 21:42, stakanov wrote:

...

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 21:26:15, Michal Suchánek ha scritto:

You don't have to use noscript, ublock, https everywhere, and whatnot in firefox. IIRC it is not even the default so you had to opt in for all or most of these features that cripple FF experience for you.

The problem I see with konqueror is not the software or its availability but the presentation of its quality.

The description of Konqueror says "File and Web Browser".

We could just change the description, its still a pretty reasonable file browser. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:26:15 +0200 Michal Suchánek ha scritto:

means part of the desktop core and have usually a few alternatives. So you can install Thunderbird in place of Evolution and still get a full featured GNOME desktop.

That is the same for Plasma. The fact that you don't know about it doesn't make it less true.

Such as almost everything developed at kde.org?

Please stop these generalizations. Bring concrete examples. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:54:01 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

What about "nepomuk" or akonandi? In my office, most of my colleagues who had tried out openSUSE 11.4/kde4 at that time still think today

Nepomuk is no longer being used since years (the semantic idea was nice, but the third-party technology it relied on was not reliable). It has been replaced with a regular file indexer. Akonadi is only used if you install KDE PIM (and you can do without, if need be), and is only started on demand (again, PIM if configured, or a plugin that's off by default in Plasma 5). It has also improved massively over the years, but I may be a bit biased as I run it daily. Ah, and few KDE Applications outside of PIM make use of that. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

On 04/15/2017 03:10 AM, Rüdiger Meier wrote:

On 04/14/2017 11:51 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:54:01 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

What about "nepomuk" or akonandi? In my office, most of my colleagues who had tried out openSUSE 11.4/kde4 at that time still think today

Nepomuk is no longer being used since years (the semantic idea was nice, but the third-party technology it relied on was not reliable). It has been replaced with a regular file indexer.

"since years" sounds long. But I see nepomuk-core was still part of openSUSE 13.2, which is newer than SLE-12. Good for the SLE maintainers that they made right decisions and don't need to maintain this for the next decade.

...

Akonadi is only used if you install KDE PIM (and you can do without, if need be), and is only started on demand (again, PIM if configured, or a plugin that's off by default in Plasma 5). It has also improved massively over the years, but I may be a bit biased as I run it daily.

Ok, I've tried it now one more time (on 42.2) ...

$ zypper install --no-recommends kmail

The following 19 NEW packages are going to be installed: akonadi-runtime kdepim4 kdepim4-runtime kdepimlibs4 kmail libbaloopim4 libgrantlee_core0 libgrantlee_gui0 libkdepim4 libkfbapi1 libkolab0 libkolabxml1 libmysqlclient18 libqt4-sql-mysql libxapian22 libxerces-c-3_1 mariadb mariadb-client mariadb-errormessages

$ kmail & $ ps aux | grep -i akonadi rudi 6395 0.0 0.1 155748 12144 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_control rudi 6397 0.0 0.2 1362828 21512 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 akonadiserver rudi 6399 0.2 1.0 2039024 84132 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 /usr/sbin/mysqld --defaults-file=/home/rudi/.local/share/akonadi/mysql.conf --datadir=/home/rudi/.local/share/akonadi/db_data/ --socket=/tmp/akonadi-rudi.iYdPO0/mysql.socket rudi 6444 0.0 0.6 420744 49224 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_agent_launcher akonadi_akonotes_resource akonadi_akonotes_resource_0 rudi 6445 0.0 0.6 412212 48720 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_agent_launcher akonadi_contacts_resource akonadi_contacts_resource_0 rudi 6446 0.0 0.6 414784 49592 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_agent_launcher akonadi_ical_resource akonadi_ical_resource_0 rudi 6447 0.0 0.6 420660 48888 ? Sl 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_agent_launcher akonadi_maildir_resource akonadi_maildir_resource_0 rudi 6448 0.0 0.6 379888 51436 ? S 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_maildispatcher_agent --identifier akonadi_maildispatcher_agent rudi 6449 0.0 0.7 424456 55268 ? S 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_newmailnotifier_agent --identifier akonadi_newmailnotifier_agent rudi 6450 0.0 0.6 344084 49348 ? S 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_migration_agent --identifier akonadi_migration_agent rudi 6455 0.0 0.6 358644 50996 ? S 02:46 0:00 /usr/bin/akonadi_birthdays_resource --identifier akonadi_birthdays_resource rudi 6600 0.0 0.0 10544 1524 pts/1 S+ 02:50 0:00 grep --color=auto -i akonadi

What do you mean exactly with akonadi is only started "on demand"? Never mind, forget about this.

One more thing ... even now after $ killall kmail $ zypper rm --clean-deps kmail All this akonadi mess and also mysql is still running ... actually as I expected but maybe good to refresh my bad experience. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il giorno Sat, 15 Apr 2017 03:10:35 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

"since years" sounds long. But I see nepomuk-core was still part of openSUSE 13.2, which is newer than SLE-12. Good for the SLE

API and ABI stability constraints meant that it couldn't just be deleted. It was there, just not used. Nepomuk was phased out in February 2014, so that's 3 years ago.

maintainers that they made right decisions and don't need to maintain this for the next decade.

But you feel right in slapping the current maintainers of the KDE stack though.

$ zypper install --no-recommends kmail [...] What do you mean exactly with akonadi is only started "on demand"? Never mind, forget about this.

"I've hit my foot with a hammer, now why does it hurt?" ;) Jokes aside, it was started on demand. KMail demanded it because it needs it (it handles all the email fetching and retrieval among other things). -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il giorno Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:05:23 +0200 Martin Herkt ha scritto:

What’s a little disconcerting, though, is that D-Bus becomes a serious bottleneck when you have something like all of

Newer versions (in TW already, and in 42.3 soon) use a better protocol which tries to reduce the use of dbus, and it's much faster. More optimizations are on the way as well (but not for the upcoming 17.04, it's 17.08 material).

and became independent from KDE and the Calligra project, it had no

Krita is not independent from KDE at all. It uses the KDE Frameworks, and it's still part of KDE. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

On Friday, 14 April 2017 20:12:15 BST Carl Symons wrote:

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Michal Suchanek wrote:

...

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:11:56 -0400

Todd Rme wrote:

...

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Rüdiger Meier

wrote:

...

On 04/14/2017 04:07 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:19:54 +0200

Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

Moreover if ktorrent and other mentioned programs would be developed independently then one could just easily try out a newer (probably

You *can* do that already. You don't need to install Plasma to run ktorrent.

And they're developed independently. In particular, ktorrent is part of the "extragear" group of applications, meaning that they have their own release schedule and their own pace of development. They have no ties with either Frameworks, Plasma, or Applications.

I've just tried for fun to install ktorrent and gave up after 30 minutes. I don't think there is a way to install it without many other deps from the kde project. There is no documentation about what dependencies are needed. I can only run cmake again and again, downloading and installing more and more deps from KDE and hoping that finally it would not complain anymore. I'd say it does not look like ktorrent is made for users who simply wants to install a torrent client quickly.

Maybe people who are familiar with the KDE tree like you may manage this faster than me, for me it's too painful.

The dependencies are listed in CMakeLists.txt, and they all seem like pretty straightforward things that something like ktorrent would need.

But when it comes to building from source, generally it is easier to use kdesrc-build, which handles all of that for you. GNOME has something similar called Jhbuild. Lots of projects have similar tools to make dependency handling easier.

This isn't a particular issue with KDE, any useful piece of software will require multiple dependencies. I don't see why you think projects that are part of the KDE community are particularly bad in this regard. On the contrary, a lot of work has been going on to limit the dependencies of KDE software to only what is really needed.

...

...

Other examples include yakuake, konversation, labplot...

Haven't checked them but I know also two good examples qcachegrind and troijta which have no kde but only Qt deps. Still the fact that they are hosted on kde.org makes them suspect to me (the "trust" thing). I'm using qcachegrind (no alternative) but I would not use troijta, since it was moved to KDE in 2012.

So you are saying you explicitly distrust anything and everything that is part of the KDE community, merely based on the fact that they choose to associate with that community?

Given the quality of software delivered by the project over the years?

Totally.

My guess is the average quality of anything k* is below the average of random piece of software downloaded off the interwebz.

That's been my experience over the years trying some k* applications or the whole DE from time to time.

KDE users are fine with what they're using and don't seem to be antagonistic towards GNOME, at least on this thread. It's telling that some people associated with GNOME such as Michal Suchanek resort to outlandish disparagement of KDE.

Gnome trolls are all over the KDE places, they seem very insecure about their choices so have to try and deflect the argument by trolling - very immature attitude from them. Why can't they just live and let live on what people like.

I've had some difficulties with applications from the KDE Community. In my own experience, the Community has been quick to resolve them. Very helpful. However, I've also had difficulties with GNOME-related applications (such as a simple clipboard that required an extension and that often needed a restart.)

Not advocating for your favorite UI while disparaging another UI is unlikely to gain supporters.

We're discussing a radio button choice here. This insulting language and disparagement is not germane to that subject. You're not only insulting software; your nasty language insults people who like using KDE.

...

I mean one of the responsibilities of a project *is* to keep software in shape or trash it as has been said numerous times. Otherwise the people not really familiar with the project structure judge it by all the 'extra gears' that are not part of it but pre-installed by default or recommended by KDE. It is probably aggravated by the sponging up of applications and renaming them k*.

False. Just wrong. What are you trying to accomplish with this propaganda?

Wouldn't it be easier to say that you strongly prefer GNOME? Do you think that it helps attract users when you bad-mouth? That's nutz.

I have had no end of trouble with https://extensions.gnome.org/. I work around the issues or get help. Anything other than coming to a public, collegial email list and denigrating stuff.

It is hard to let the thing go and

...

not getting connected with it when it starts going under once you made it obvious part of the DE.

Thanks

Thanks for what?

Carl

...

Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170407 Qt: 5.7.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.32.0 KDE Plasma: 5.9.4 kwin 5.9.4 kmail2 5.4.3 akonadiserver 5.4.3 Kernel: 4.10.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.14_1.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Some of the posts belong to two categories: a) users using KDE and saying it’s good stuff b) users not using KDE and saying its bad stuff It seems one group is wrong. The question is just, is it a) or b) or both or none or just not that easy? I personally started with KDE3 and found it boring. Happily switched to KDE4 asap, it turned out to be unusable (system freezes). Switched to Gnome 2 and liked it but still used kate, okular, …. Gnome 3 was for me a real pain and I faked Gnome 2 behavior as long as I was able to do it. Then tried KDE 4 DE again and use it since then quite happy. There was a time I liked the Gnome tools (evince, gedit, gnome-terminal) especially as I got problems with the KDE tools. However the current trend for Gnome tools makes me use more KDE tools again. Unfortunately the once using KDE stuff and liking this stuff are not as loud as the other ones. From my side: Thanks a lot for KDE: Plasma, kate, okular, …. and thanks for the Gnome tools, thanks for openSUSE! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:20:34 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

I've just tried for fun to install ktorrent and gave up after 30 minutes. I don't think there is a way to install it without many

How so? It's one "zypper install" away. (--no-recommends if you don't want extra dependencies) -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

On 04/14/2017 03:56 PM, stakanov wrote:

PS. SDDM is an example were the whole thing leads. It is NOT a KDE application. It is full of bugs and (that's the most funny part) people THINK it is a KDE application and blame KDE for it.

You forget that the only reason why we had to meet this terrible sddm thing is that it is the recommended "successor of the KDE Display Manager". Probably nobody on earth would have ever used this thing if KDE wouldn't recommend it. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 05:08 PM, stakanov wrote:

In data venerdì 14 aprile 2017 16:13:05, Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

...

On 04/14/2017 03:56 PM, stakanov wrote:

...

PS. SDDM is an example were the whole thing leads. It is NOT a KDE application. It is full of bugs and (that's the most funny part) people THINK it is a KDE application and blame KDE for it.

You forget that the only reason why we had to meet this terrible sddm thing is that it is the recommended "successor of the KDE Display Manager". Probably nobody on earth would have ever used this thing if KDE wouldn't recommend it.

cu, Rudi Well, to be honest, you do not HAVE to meet this terrible thing. If you do run nvidia cards it runs for me quite well. If you do have an Intel based notebook you can actually without issues use lightdm.

I have not had any problems with graphics cards, just dozens of other small issues https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=994205

But when I was still using kdm it was opening listening x-server connections on 6001, 6002 etc no matter what. Not really "fine stile". So, I repeat: nobody forces you to follow the recommendations of KDE. If you do however and the project screws up, then the culprit is that project not being up to expectations and not KDE. Fair enough?

This thread is about openSUSE defaults. I don't care about KDE being default if at least the displaymanager is usable to login and to select another WM. I've never had any problems with kdm but our default sddm setup is painful and unusable for many use cases. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-04-15 11:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

This thread is about openSUSE defaults. I don't care about KDE being default if at least the displaymanager is usable to login and to select another WM. I've never had any problems with kdm but our default sddm setup is painful and unusable for many use cases.

sddm is only the default if you choose to install kde in the installer, if you choose Gnome you will get gdm and if you install any other desktop (excluding icewm) you will get lightdm as the default. We don't have a distro default display manager.

What if one installs all desktops? There should be one display manager that works well with any desktop and be installed be default always. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-17 02:32, Simon Lees wrote:

On 04/16/2017 08:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

What if one installs all desktops?

There should be one display manager that works well with any desktop and be installed be default always.

All 3 should work well with any desktop if they don't please report a bug. Its more about the dependencies each pull in and more consistent branding as much as anything else, for example on the machine I was messing with wayland on I am using gdm, but I don't think i've ever launched Gnome on it, for most of my other machines I have lightdm. The way this is implemented hasn't been finalized for 42.3 due to the new desktop selection, but it will be something like, if you select the Gnome radio button you will get gdm, if you select the kde radio button you will get sddm and if you select other then a different desktop pattern you will get lightdm (if you select other and no desktop you will get nothing).

The fact that selecting Gnome uses GDM and selecting KDE uses sddm is completely up to the choice of the Gnome/KDE maintainers, As the enlightenment maintainer I chose that if you only install enlightenment you will get lightdm by default as it pulls in less gnome/kde deps then others. It is only recommended so you as the user may choose to install something else and use that instead.

I think that openSUSE should have its own display manager, not using libraries from any of the big desktops. Lightweight. Capable of starting any desktop. Always the same, regardless what is the default desktop. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-17 02:50, Nate Graham wrote:

On 04/16/2017 06:49 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-04-17 02:32, Simon Lees wrote: I think that openSUSE should have its own display manager, not using libraries from any of the big desktops. Lightweight. Capable of starting any desktop. Always the same, regardless what is the default desktop.

Sounds like LightDM, no?

That's the one I use on this computer, yes. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-04-17 10:02, Simon Lees wrote:

On 04/17/2017 10:19 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-04-17 02:32, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 04/16/2017 08:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

What if one installs all desktops?

There should be one display manager that works well with any desktop and be installed be default always.

All 3 should work well with any desktop if they don't please report a bug. Its more about the dependencies each pull in and more consistent branding as much as anything else, for example on the machine I was messing with wayland on I am using gdm, but I don't think i've ever launched Gnome on it, for most of my other machines I have lightdm. The way this is implemented hasn't been finalized for 42.3 due to the new desktop selection, but it will be something like, if you select the Gnome radio button you will get gdm, if you select the kde radio button you will get sddm and if you select other then a different desktop pattern you will get lightdm (if you select other and no desktop you will get nothing).

The fact that selecting Gnome uses GDM and selecting KDE uses sddm is completely up to the choice of the Gnome/KDE maintainers, As the enlightenment maintainer I chose that if you only install enlightenment you will get lightdm by default as it pulls in less gnome/kde deps then others. It is only recommended so you as the user may choose to install something else and use that instead.

I think that openSUSE should have its own display manager, not using libraries from any of the big desktops. Lightweight. Capable of starting any desktop. Always the same, regardless what is the default desktop.

And who do you propose is going to do this work? and why should we write our own display manager when there is already multiple in existence that we can just package? If someone was so inclined to do this work, adding up to date Qt branding to lightdm would probably be a starting point then Qt based desktops could use lightdm without gtk. Of course you should start by getting a consensus that this is the direction the project wanted to take.

It is just an idea, don't be so grumpy :-) Choose or make one that works on all situations without many frills with openSUSE artwork and branding. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Am Montag, 17. April 2017, 02:32:36 CEST schrieb Simon Lees:

On 04/16/2017 08:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-04-15 11:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

This thread is about openSUSE defaults. I don't care about KDE being default if at least the displaymanager is usable to login and to select another WM. I've never had any problems with kdm but our default sddm setup is painful and unusable for many use cases.

sddm is only the default if you choose to install kde in the installer, if you choose Gnome you will get gdm and if you install any other desktop (excluding icewm) you will get lightdm as the default. We don't have a distro default display manager.

What if one installs all desktops?

There should be one display manager that works well with any desktop and be installed be default always.

All 3 should work well with any desktop if they don't please report a bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1017478 deals with sddm issues as well on TW. No update since nearly 4 month. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 17. April 2017, 09:14:28 CEST schrieb Luca Beltrame:

Il giorno Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:09:53 +0200

Axel Braun ha scritto:

...

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1017478 deals with sddm issues as well on TW. No update since nearly 4 month.

The problem is, at least for what I tried, I can't reproduce it. I run SDDM on 5 machines, and neither of them experiences this issue.

Yes, can imagine that some bugs are hard to reproduce. Let me know what logs you need, and I will try to reproduce (switched to kdm in between, as this works) Cheers Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il giorno Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:50:16 +0100 ianseeks ha scritto:

people know it been looked at and is noted as unreproducible and perhaps need more info?

I know, but my priority has been getting Applications 17.04 in shape for TW and Leap, and that sucked up all my time (and energy)... -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

On 2017-04-15 11:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

This thread is about openSUSE defaults. I don't care about KDE being default if at least the displaymanager is usable to login and to select another WM. I've never had any problems with kdm but our default sddm setup is painful and unusable for many use cases.

sddm is only the default if you choose to install kde in the installer, if you choose Gnome you will get gdm and if you install any other desktop (excluding icewm) you will get lightdm as the default. We don't have a distro default display manager.

What if one installs all desktops?

There should be one display manager that works well with any desktop and be installed be default always. To tell the truth: sddm in the standard setup seems to be simply depending on the quality of....the graphics card.

In data domenica 16 aprile 2017 13:17:16, Carlos E. R. ha scritto: plasma in the stardard setup seems to have problem with people ...just because of the graphics card. in tumbleweed I had to eliminate in a definite way plymouth..... because I had a nvidia graphics card with nouveau and that fkd up more often then none. Since then no problem. But should other user be influenced by the pitfalls and bad policies of the graphic-card-producer-policies and by local configurations? Yet if you want to have linux running on all machines you install the kernel in console mode. That should do. Wasn't this all about choice? The people should have choice. They have with everything. If it is about getting intellectually so stupid to not know how to use a radio button, if they do not want to experiment, to take no risk....then the should IMO not use IT at all. Better a pencil, they will be better off. BTW. SDDM in its latest version seems to work well in TW. So, it is all a question of patience. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il giorno Fri, 14 Apr 2017 12:06:49 +0200 Rüdiger Meier ha scritto:

IMO it's a pity that so many nice applications are bundled with KDE.

KDE is not a desktop environment (for the n!th time). It is a community that develops software. Many applications do not require Plasma (the DE) and in fact run fine on other DEs or WMs (there's a percentage of bug reports coming from users that don't use Plasma). That was the whole point of modularization of the libraries (KDE Frameworks 5) and splitting the DE (Plasma) from the applications (Applications). They're not even released on the same schedule.

When I was more into it (many years ago) I've had the impression that KDE wants to sponge up any existing Qt based apps.

Most lower-tier Frameworks have just Qt dependencies and nothing else. They can be used fine without adding any other high-level component (again, one of the reasons of the modularization). There's more than that, but we're going off-topic. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

On Friday, 14 April 2017 09:36:27 BST Martin Herkt wrote:

As someone who isn’t involved with KDE development or openSUSE KDE packaging, KDE seems extremely unpolished to me. There’s just so much old and half-baked crap that the entire project is suffering from. Someone really needs to take out the trash, even if it means sacrificing functionality.

To me, it seems like the KDE project lacks direction. It’s like everybody’s just hacking on their own toy projects until they get bored with it, and nobody wants to be responsible for anything. There have been fundraising campains in the past, but it’s never been about fixing the architectural mess (some say it has “grown organically,”and to me it looks more like terminal cancer). This needs to be dealt with, or it’s going to be hard to take this project seriously enough to make it a default choice for anything.

That said, I still run a KDE session, albeit with i3 as its window manager (and sway once Wayland on desktop actually works). Dolphin, KMail, KWrite etc. are still great applications that I don’t want to miss. I still want to recommend KDE, but it’s getting harder and harder for me to do so.

Well, why don't you display your experience and knowledge and step up and show how its done? Trolling and sniping from the sidelines is no use to anyone and makes you look bad. -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170407 Qt: 5.7.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.32.0 KDE Plasma: 5.9.4 kwin 5.9.4 kmail2 5.4.3 akonadiserver 5.4.3 Kernel: 4.10.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.14_1.1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 09:24 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-04-14 01:37, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 04/13/2017 10:23 PM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

...

Hello, most Linux distributions are using GNOME by default, including:

Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Anything running in X11 is inherently insecure, whether its gnome, kde or anything else. Wayland will improve this alot when its ready for general consumption but its not quite there yet.

It seems that there are more reports here about problems with KDE than with Gnome, but maybe it is because more people use one than the other.

But nothing about safety as I remember.

Well two simple examples, under X11 any application can view all the keystrokes being sent to another application, they can also view whats being displayed on any application (this is how gimp's color picker works). There is likely many others that I haven't mentioned as well. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 14/04/17 14:10, Chan Ju Ping wrote:

On Thursday, 13 April 2017 20:53:30 +08 Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

...

Hello, most Linux distributions are using GNOME by default, including:

Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu starting with v18.04, RHEL and most of it's derivatives, and even SUSE Linux enterprise; so why openSUSE is using KDE by default?

GNOME is more stable, has better support for Wayland and is extremely beautiful.

Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Aside frome the multitude of responses already given, I use openSUSE because of the explicit support for KDE. Ergo, I want to use KDE. If that were not the case Ubuntu or Fedora would be my distribution of choice.

Exactly. The only reason I stay with openSUSE despite multiple confusions over the standing and point of a number of repositories, and the effects of using them, is its support of KDE. If that goes, so do I. -- Robin K Wellington "Harbour City" New Zealand -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/14/2017 11:40 AM, Chan Ju Ping wrote:

On Thursday, 13 April 2017 20:53:30 +08 Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

...

Hello, most Linux distributions are using GNOME by default, including:

Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu starting with v18.04, RHEL and most of it's derivatives, and even SUSE Linux enterprise; so why openSUSE is using KDE by default?

GNOME is more stable, has better support for Wayland and is extremely beautiful.

Is not GNOME more secure than KDE even?

Aside frome the multitude of responses already given, I use openSUSE because of the explicit support for KDE. Ergo, I want to use KDE. If that were not the case Ubuntu or Fedora would be my distribution of choice.

Swapping the default from KDE to Gnome would not change how the openSUSE project supports KDE. KDE would continue to be supported and openSUSE would probably continue to be a leading KDE distro, just as openSUSE is a leading enlightenment distro although its not the default. Unlike someother distro's such as Ubuntu one of the joys of openSUSE is as long as someone is willing to maintain something that something will be maintained well by the community. That is why we ship 1 DVD with multiple desktops rather then multiple CD's with different "flavors". -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 04/16/2017 01:41 AM, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

Yesterday I did more think on the matter and I understand that GNOME is really a *BAD* choice for DESKTOP, for example GNOME Shell lacks three essential features as a application launcher:

* lack of provide full name of programs, if some applications have long name, their name appears incomplete * lack of category sorting of applications * lack of provide a short description about programs, this is extremely useful for small programs

it is a GPU hungry and its extension system is really bad and has many problems that does not solved during these years.

in addition to these, totally GNOME 3 UI design is suitable for touch screens and tablets, not for desktop,[1] they did remove a extremely useful control element, the "MENU BAR" and replaced it with different menu buttons, caused to confusing and lack of support by keyboard shortcuts.

Yesterday I did switch to Cinnamon, but maybe I switch to MATE or XFCE, I no longer use GNOME and now I don't suggest GNOME to be default DE on any distro.

[1] I don't known who use Linux on tablet that GNOME developers destroyed GNOME.

If you don't like GNOME, don't use it. I do agree with many of your points, which is why I don't use GNOME myself--but a more constructive approach would be to file (polite) bugzilla tickets and submit patches. Nate -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Todd Rme: [...]

openSUSE defaults to KDE because, as far as anyone has been able to determine, a plurality of openSUSE users want KDE as the default. You can disagree with that as much as you want, but unless someone comes up with a more reliable way to determine what the community wants, openSUSE maintainers have to use the best information available to them. [...]

Are there download numbers available? Someone with access to the data can pick two packages, one needed (only) for a desktop with Plasma, the other for Gnome. For each distribution of openSUSE divide the number of downloads for these package with the number of available (update-)versions of the selected package. Perhaps the result might be a possible hint, what is used the most and should be the default. The choice will be better based on numbers than on the opinions from a very active but still small group. Only if the results are quite close, further discussions might be needed. All the best. sg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org