Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-translation (94 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-translation] Managing SUSE translations in unified way
  • From: "Stathis Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr)" <eiosifidis@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 23:56:30 +0300
  • Message-id: <517EDE7E.1030009@gmail.com>
Sorry for the top post.

I didn't read all mails, do I don't know the result.
Regarding Greek team, we used Vertaal, 2 releases ago.
I wrote a small tutorial in Greek http://el.opensuse.org/%CE%92%CE%BF%CE%AE%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1:Vertaal_SVN

Greek translators stopped to translate the distro. I'm doing all the job right now and I upload everything using SVN.
They asked me for Transifex, they wanted to translate online.

I tried to set up an unofficial openSUSE translation on Transifex but failed managing it.
I saw weblate during previous openSUSE conference and tried to set it up but also failed (I'm not tech guy).

So right now I get notification from Vertaal everytime that a file changes, I update my SVN repo, translate it and I upload it using SVN tools.

Thanks for reading.
Stathis


Στις 29/04/2013 11:24 μμ, ο/η Leandro Regueiro έγραψε:
I am going to send this message because I read several really stupid
phrases, from several different persons.


On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 19:02 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:

2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:

Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of
procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince
us
:-)

Pardon me? I don't remember me proposing anything.

Sorry, I confuse names. This is your second post in this mail list since
2006 at least. Welcome, newcommer. Who are you, then? :-?



Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in
English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can
then
simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain.

In that case, you cannot wonder that there is attempt to unify current
mess, when you don't tell anybody about your tool and basically nobody
uses it.

Mess? :-o

Nobody? :-o

Vertaal is currently used by these openSUSE translation teams:

Italian
Russian
Hungarian
German
Czech
Greek
Spanish
Arabic
Brazilian Portuguese
French
Galician
Portuguese
Punjabi
Catalan
Turkish
Georgian
As part of the Galician translation team I can tell that we are using
Vertaal and or POAT (I can't remember) since 2008. That makes like 5
year or so. Our team is not much active, but from time to time some of
us translate and manage to keep the translation level.

I want to make clear that the phrase "about your tool and basically
nobody uses it." includes two errors. First one is that the tool is
from Gabriel, not Carlos, and IIRC it was stated at least one time in
the thread. Second error is that nobody uses it, since Carlos is
clearly claiming that he uses it. Even more, other people use it, and
not only from Carlos team.


But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they
document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own
people
who has to read it.

And that might actually be the reason why there is attempt to
implement some tool. Nobody knows about yours, so it was assumed that
there are none such in place.

We are the people doing the translations, and we know about the tools we can
use. It is you, newcommer, who don't know. Ask the team translating your
language, join it, and contribute :-)
Generally the documentation for a translation team is in the language
that that team is translating to. For example documentation of the
Galician translation team is in Galician because it is the language
our translators usually understand better. Your complains about lack
of English documentation in a Translation team docs is really, really
stupid.


I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without
consulting community.
Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.

Nor yours :-)

Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just
complain and are overall unconstructive.

We are already here doing things. You want to come and change how we do
things... the onus is on you, not us.
I don't recall previous conversations about changing to Weblate. I
don't really follow every discussion that happens on this mailing list
so it might happen. But given Carlos reacted this way I have my
doubts.


There could still be some debate started. Something actually
productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community.
Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening?
It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.

Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without
the
translator community having any thing to say or do.

As I said, nobody knew about your tool, it was assumed, that there is
none.
Don't be stupid, we knew about this tool. Other people also do. So
don't say nobody.


You people did not bother to ask us first.
This comment is really stupid. They don't have to ask. Anyway it will
be good for the developers to ask so this discussion could be avoided.


Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some
problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you
could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which
would make everyone happy.

As said, the onus is on the people wanting to change the current system.
You (by you I mean those who are arguing in a stupid way, for example
Carlos and Vít) are the ones that are not acting in a constructive
way.


Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same
level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving
current suboptimal situation.
Good. Can anybody provide any link to the mail where he expressed this
commitment and asked for input to create the tool?


But he is not a member of the translator community here.
And what is the problem?


And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to
stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as
it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or
not.
And just this discussion, or the notice of the new tool were enough to
make Gabriel wanting to drop Vertaal, the tool that for years we have
being using.


I was not the only one complaining. I'm the one putting more words into it.
How many posts do you here from translators saying "yeah, lets do it!"?
Some. And that is no problem. Tools can be improved. Tools can be
replaced by new better ones. Some people might start using this tool.
I don't see a problem at all. Some others will want to keep working as
they did until now.


And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working
on
translations, I would have to quit.

While current situation makes many people not to start at all.
You are still in the idea that Vertaal don't exist at all.


They are free to contribute...
Of course not. New people are not free to contribute. There are
blockers: things to learn, hard work to do...


There are languages that have only one person or two, an they use their own
methods (and tools). It is a lot of work, some languages started not long
ago and have much to catch up.

Some other languages may even have financial contributions...




/That/ is how we work.


You were defending your position by saying that your tool is
documented, which it effectively is not.


It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community
developed
and implemented when they saw we needed something.

"Your" means, tool (only) your team uses. Which is correct.

Several language teams, dude.
Carlos is right here.


It is not the first tool
or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one,
yet.
I'm just a happy user of this tool.

One of ... er ... three users?

How do you count the number of users?
I am asking the same question.


So, do you mean it in a way, that it is OK if those three people block
improvement for the remaining languages?
Nobody is blocking. I just see comments from people asking for
answers, and writing a lot of stupid comments.

BTW, lets suppose you deploy Weblate, or whatever tool, does anybody
think for a moment that this would make impossible for the translators
to not use that tool at all and still keep translating and sending its
translations?


Again, how do you count the number of users?


Let me see... 11 people on the german team. 9 on the Italian. 32 on the
French. 12 on the Spanish. And there are more teams.


Say again... 3 people? :-O



If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain
it.
Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting.

Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with
propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before.
We just tell our translators how to translate and which workflow and
tools do we use. So why do we have to tell a person that perhaps we
don't either know? Do we have to tell anybody? Perhaps not, but this
what some teams do in their docs.


Why?

People wanting to contribute translations find the translation wiki, find
the mail list, and ask to join. We guide them to the documentation they need
and teach them with what they need.


For example, I looked at the general wiki,
<http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide>. From there I found the
wiki of the French team, and there I found a link to vertaal documentation
here <https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide>, in English.

It is not that difficult to find...
This last comment is really stupid. This wiki jumps can sometimes be
really hard to discover.


Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence
"OK, I'm going to implement this".

Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns
its webpage just in first entry found.
While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that
basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none.
You are true.


The openSUSE translator community knows about it. You don't know about it
because you don't contribute here. Your help will be welcome ;-)
Also true. But a tool like this should be easier to find in order to
allow new teams to join.


In general this thread has a lot of stupid comments. I just read a few
of the later messages, and leaving aside Gabriel and Luiz ones, the
other comments just suck.

I didn't tested Weblate, and probably won't test in the near future. I
am really sick with the avalanche of web translation related tools
that just appeared this last years: Weblate, Transifex, Pootle...

So in short, Vertaal works just fine for me since 5+ years ago, so I
will hate to have to change.

Bye


--
http://about.me/iosifidis
http://eiosifidis.blogspot.gr
http://blogs.gnome.org/eiosifidis

Great leaders don't tell you what to do...
They show you how it's done.

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