[opensuse-translation] Managing SUSE translations in unified way
Hello guys, Let me tell you a "shorty" bit about my hackweek project. Currently our translation repositories are stored in internal svn and split by branches per release. I want to tackle the issue where translations are inconsistent among supported releases and also somehow consolide all the stuff we are providing to have only one input channel with less space for contributor confusion. As I described this in my previous mail [1] I want to fire up the weblate instance with help from Michal Cihar. But as people complained against web translations only we will simply list the git repositories with access to allow them merge requests on github or use the weblate only as interface to obtain the .po files. Items currently stored in svn [2]: yast - obvious, in github webyast - obvious, in github lcn - merged repository for various tools zypper/bootloader/... packages - repository for cd descs/etc... Some of the packages do not have suse upstream (eg special kde translations and so on). These will be migrated in the end to new github project (eg. openSUSE/translations-3rdparty.git; if you have cooler name we will use it :P). Also I bet we already have some projects that should be translated and are not. If you happen to be aware of such project we can also add it to the toolkit, just reply to this mail with its name and git repo. List of tasks to get this working ------------------------------------------- Infrastructure side: Deprecate translations mailinglists to keep only the opensuse-translation where everyone should discuss, with per language lists the problem is if the team goes inactive nobody notices, and we can have more active list where we ingore threads that do not bother us. Eg we can have them prefixed by lang if they matter only for those ([ru] Unable to translate foo due to xyz). [[Who can actually sent deprecation mails and mark them read only?]] Create new documentation on i18n which will contain the weblate instance and provide links to git repositories and pull requests description for contributors not wanting to use the weblate. Suspending the translation repositories to read-only until migration is complete. Note for translators, you can translate your stuff even in read-only mode. Merging then will be possible in weblate or by hand into the new location which will be described in the new repository listing. IMPORTANT: this must be done ASAP, because without the disabled write access we shouldn't start moving the files around. Upstream/developers side: Take the translations from the svn repository and create po/ folder in your project root. Structure looks like this (some projects already have po folder but the translations are in tarball, just throw away the tarball and unpack it): <snip> yast2-network/po/cs.po yast2-network/po/de.po yast2-network/po/yast2-network.pot </snip> Modify spec-file of the package to count with the translations from here (I am well aware it will create collisions in the start with the generic l10n packages we will remove later on, so we should obsolete them and make the lang pkg recommended). Create new hook that updates the .pot file with each commit and regenerates the .po files. I bet Michal already have some nice hook at phpmyadmin and he can provide it so we don't need to write one stock each time. Remove hooks that push into svn if there are some and it is not cron-based server side. [[Anyone knows how this is done?]] Update buildscripts to generate .mo files and to install them into right place. Easy in distutils, for autotools you need gettext Makefile.in.in, I will provide help and do the work where needed. After we fire up testing weblate we will also need to add weblate key to be able push to the repository. [[Michal could you please elaborate here how this taks need to be done?]] Of course you are not the ones who have to do the work, I will do the task if asked/allowed to touch your repos (scarabeusiv account at github). I am just pretty sure I will not be able to migrate all 205 repos in one week without screwing up somewhere, so any help will be highly appreciated, specially when you guys know your project much more than I do :-) Packaging side: We need to update the .spec files of the various translation modules like yast2-translations to be split into specified packages (yast2-network-lang,...) Packages that will be obsoleted and split are: yast2-translations [[I suck at searching in obs so if you see more of those that should be adjusted please reply here and I will do whats needed]] Possible future task that would make people happy: Allow translations of wiki pages instead of having separate wiki instances for each language. This stuff is messy and using weblate here would be so awesome. Cheers Tom PS: keep reply-to on opensuse-translation so we don't clutter the discussion on multiple places. PPS: this is quite lengthy mail so if I forgot to mention something just slap me and ask for more informations. [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2013-04/msg00000.html [2] http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/opensuse-i18n/
Dne Po 8. dubna 2013 15:22:28, Tomáš Chvátal napsal(a):
Items currently stored in svn [2]: yast - obvious, in github webyast - obvious, in github lcn - merged repository for various tools zypper/bootloader/... packages - repository for cd descs/etc...
Here for the lcn toolkit we need to figure out two more things. For SLE we currently have non-upstreamed patches that should be provided upstream. Stanislav will elaborate later on with showing one more script that allows easy diff between current upstream and what we are providing. The LCN team use some translation tool that works back with svn and we need to figure out if it can be tweaked to support git. If not we need to provide script that backports the translations back to the svn for the SLE branches and update them accordingly back to weblate... This will be quite hard so I hope their fancy tools support git. [[Btw anyone knows current contact for the LCN team except filling up bugzilla?]] Cheers Tom
Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
Hello guys,
Let me tell you a "shorty" bit about my hackweek project.
It is a very welcome effort. I just updated my translation-update-upstream generated files archive: http://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/sbrabec/translation-update-upstream/README http://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/sbrabec/translation-update-upstream/ Volunteers that would be able to merge Novell contribution back to upstream would be very welcome. It would need: - A tool to simplify the merge. - Native speakers from that are able to review differences of translations, pick the better one and communicate with the upstream translation community. Let me to introduce translation tools in short: translation-update-upstream: Collects strings from upstream and LCN and creates best-effort pot files for build-time update of packages (translation-update-upstream is a build dependency of the package and while called from the spec file, it updates translations in the unpacked sources). gnome-patch-translation: Collects strings from SUSE specific patches (not only GNOME) and creates translation domain (gnome-patch-translation.pot) from them. translation-update: Collects strings from LCN and creates install-time update packages. (It does not need rebuild of packages, but translation are installed twice then (old in package and new in translation-update)). -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +49 911 7405384547 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Stanislav Brabec wrote:
I just updated my translation-update-upstream generated files archive: http://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/sbrabec/translation-update-upstream/README
Now it was finally synced correctly. I forgot to mention: http://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/sbrabec/lcn-upstreaming/tools/ -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +49 911 7405384547 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
Let me tell you a "shorty" bit about my hackweek project.
I'm not that sure whether this all is actually wanted or even needed. And, more important, it looks confusing to me. But if the openSUSE community wants to go that way, it is fine with me. I'd guess the openSUSE community than would administer and manage this process (e.g., updating the translation packages, in case that that is still needed), and I could retire from it (which is also perfectly ok for me). Check with the opensuse project management and especially with coolo whether everthing is fine. Some general remarks. 1/ The current infrastructure sure has some weak areas. Thus, improvements are a good idea. 2/ In the context of translations, I'd avoid git as much as possible and stick with svn. 3/ I consider branches per release (openSUSE 12.1, openSUSE 12.2, etc.) as a good thing. Sometimes teams decide to translate a term differently from now on; but this does not mean you actually want to change past releases accordingly; users are used to that translation (even if "wrong") and translated documents or third party documentation might make use of that "wrongly" translated term. In the future (openSUSE 13.1(?)/SLE 12(?)) we already agreed to get rid of the separate SLE* and opensuse* branches. 4/ Re-arranging and renaming packages is always a PITA. Only do it if it is really needed (and you have nothing better to do ;) ). 5/ Permanent merging and updating translation files during development is bad; this only makes sense at the end of a release cycle. Of course, this is my very personal opinion; if the community thinks different, go for it. 6/ I'd avoid the Web for the actual translation process as much as possible; it will probably result in more but even worse translations ;) (see topic 5). I'd rather go for a translation app (Android).
Also I bet we already have some projects that should be translated and are not. If you happen to be aware of such project we can also add it to the toolkit, just reply to this mail with its name and git repo.
It is often more important rather difficult to identify obsolete stuff... -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Dne Út 9. dubna 2013 08:29:56, Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
Let me tell you a "shorty" bit about my hackweek project.
I'm not that sure whether this all is actually wanted or even needed. And, more important, it looks confusing to me. But if the openSUSE community wants to go that way, it is fine with me. I'd guess the openSUSE community than would administer and manage this process (e.g., updating the translation packages, in case that that is still needed), and I could retire from it (which is also perfectly ok for me).
Check with the opensuse project management and especially with coolo whether everthing is fine.
Some general remarks.
1/ The current infrastructure sure has some weak areas. Thus, improvements are a good idea.
2/ In the context of translations, I'd avoid git as much as possible and stick with svn.
It luckily does not matter that much because both can be accessed +- the same. With the weblate you can even reduce the requirement to have svn/git installed because user can just fetch the .po whenever he feels like working and then upload it back and it will be merged automatically. No git merges/svn merges forced to be done by user.
3/ I consider branches per release (openSUSE 12.1, openSUSE 12.2, etc.) as a good thing. Sometimes teams decide to translate a term differently from now on; but this does not mean you actually want to change past releases accordingly; users are used to that translation (even if "wrong") and translated documents or third party documentation might make use of that "wrongly" translated term.
In the future (openSUSE 13.1(?)/SLE 12(?)) we already agreed to get rid of the separate SLE* and opensuse* branches.
Actually the problem is that we have opensuse/sle branches even for software that is released/branched independently and then put to the sle/opensuse. Thats why I want to put some of the things into the git to be next to the devel code (as already webyast is). The rest will be still branch by release so we match the reality. Btw this separate branches agreement would you mind to elaborate which translations will be used then? The pro ones or the community provided ones? I also hope to take look on the tools Stanislav posted to show diff for upstream application, because our task should be to provide this stuff up to them and if they decide to not use it reflect the requests by them into our translations because we are just having more people work on one translation and it is bit wastefull :-)
4/ Re-arranging and renaming packages is always a PITA. Only do it if it is really needed (and you have nothing better to do ;) ).
That I agree. It is PITA but I think it is long term worth the task as we finally know what strings are release dependant and whatnot. Also it seems that only package you do this way is the yast thingu rest is already done with the src package together.
5/ Permanent merging and updating translation files during development is bad; this only makes sense at the end of a release cycle. Of course, this is my very personal opinion; if the community thinks different, go for it.
Permanent merging is bad, but reviewed merging is pretty cool thing that allows you to fix bugs even on "stable translations". I know about software that had translations broken for 3 years stating it will be fixed with next major bump where it is already fixed. Because translators were to work only with trunk. And also other way around. Everyone works on stable branch and forgets to merge stuff. This tool will be just to easily visualise the possibilites to merge while you are translating. And it will be up to you as translator to decide if you want it to happen or not.
6/ I'd avoid the Web for the actual translation process as much as possible; it will probably result in more but even worse translations ;) (see topic 5). I'd rather go for a translation app (Android).
Yeah lots of people hate web, but I think the apps are even more crazy. I tried to translate on android and my arms hurt pretty much, the touchscreen thingy is not great for typing too much :-)
Also I bet we already have some projects that should be translated and are not. If you happen to be aware of such project we can also add it to the toolkit, just reply to this mail with its name and git repo.
It is often more important rather difficult to identify obsolete stuff...
Agreed that removing obsolete stuff is also important, but from looking on our stats we have everything in pretty much translated state so more stuff wont hurt kittens. Tom
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
Actually the problem is that we have opensuse/sle branches even for software that is released/branched independently and then put to the sle/opensuse. Thats why I want to put some of the things into the git to be next to the devel code (as already webyast is). The rest will be still branch by release so we match the reality.
If the maintainers would tell me or the SVN admins about these parts that need a special treatment, we could create a separate directory.
Btw this separate branches agreement would you mind to elaborate which translations will be used then? The pro ones or the community provided ones?
Thus far, details are not worked out. openSUSE will come with the translations done by the community translators and SUSE will "finalize" these translations for the business products.
That I agree. It is PITA but I think it is long term worth the task as we finally know what strings are release dependant and whatnot. Also it seems that only package you do this way is the yast thingu rest is already done with the src package together.
Yes. In the very past, translation were also shipped together with all the single yast modules, but then they voted for one translation package per language (yast2-trans-LL)...
Yeah lots of people hate web, but I think the apps are even more crazy. I tried to translate on android and my arms hurt pretty much, the touchscreen thingy is not great for typing too much :-)
;) Happily some devices allow you to connect an external keyboard. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Karl Eichwalder wrote:
It is often more important rather difficult to identify obsolete stuff...
This script is capable to create list of all actually used po domains: http://ftp.suse.com/pub/people/sbrabec/translation-update-upstream/SLE11-SP3... Note that it is not capable to find domains in use that had no translations in the time of release. You need a complete RPM (binary) repository mirror in your local file system. Its primary target was identifying interested stuff in the git.gnome.org, but it could be easily used for LCN purge. I will re-run it and put outputs to generated-outputs directory. It will be named create-tlst-temp-all-po-projects.lst (If it is useful for other purposes, I can remove the "-temp-" in the next version and stop deleting it after use.) -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +49 911 7405384547 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-04-09 at 08:29 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Tomáš Chvátal <> writes:
Let me tell you a "shorty" bit about my hackweek project.
I'm not that sure whether this all is actually wanted or even needed. And, more important, it looks confusing to me. But if the openSUSE community wants to go that way, it is fine with me. I'd guess the openSUSE community than would administer and manage this process (e.g., updating the translation packages, in case that that is still needed), and I could retire from it (which is also perfectly ok for me).
It is too confussing to me. I do not understand a word of it. It may well mean that I have to retire and stop my contributions as translator. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFkOJEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V0nQCfVGD0vR/oXeN44WNO/ZxlwBCI Rc0AoIireZo4BEiDcvA4xLN8hDrI0qml =QbqX -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dne Út 9. dubna 2013 17:49:37, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Tuesday, 2013-04-09 at 08:29 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Tomáš Chvátal <> writes:
Let me tell you a "shorty" bit about my hackweek project.
I'm not that sure whether this all is actually wanted or even needed. And, more important, it looks confusing to me. But if the openSUSE community wants to go that way, it is fine with me. I'd guess the openSUSE community than would administer and manage this process (e.g., updating the translation packages, in case that that is still needed), and I could retire from it (which is also perfectly ok for me).
It is too confussing to me. I do not understand a word of it. It may well mean that I have to retire and stop my contributions as translator.
He just says that he is fine with the mess I am doing technically ;-) and as I said multiple times it will be you guys who will be using the merging feature if you decide to do so. Also if after redesign of the layout there will be still some indepenedent lang packages (like the yast-lang one) in obs he will be more than happy if someone from community could take and manage it. Cheers Tom
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-04-09 at 18:24 +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
Dne Út 9. dubna 2013 17:49:37, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
It is too confussing to me. I do not understand a word of it. It may well mean that I have to retire and stop my contributions as translator.
He just says that he is fine with the mess I am doing technically ;-) and as I said multiple times it will be you guys who will be using the merging feature if you decide to do so.
Also if after redesign of the layout there will be still some indepenedent lang packages (like the yast-lang one) in obs he will be more than happy if someone from community could take and manage it.
Whatever. When you people finish changing things, tell us. I'll have a look, and if I can understand and work with it, as a translator, I will. If I don't like it, I will not. I don't care how the trees are kept, what is done behind, as long as I can do my stuff and don't have to learn a whole loaf of new procedures. There is a limit to what I can learn - unless they pay me to learn. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFklWQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VFiQCeOWY5lee5T7WjvqaDCQN3tAEk ZIoAoJJUjb5iYr8TxP1JGcMRDCascPH8 =s8PW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dne Po 8. dubna 2013 15:22:28, Tomáš Chvátal napsal(a):
Upstream/developers side: Take the translations from the svn repository and create po/ folder in your project root. Structure looks like this (some projects already have po folder but the translations are in tarball, just throw away the tarball and unpack it): <snip> yast2-network/po/cs.po yast2-network/po/de.po yast2-network/po/yast2-network.pot </snip>
After a bit of investigation this upstream stuff apply only for tools that are not branched same way as suse releases of course. So if your package is distinct among sle/opensuse versions then it stays in the git/svn and does not require any messing with your git repo. Only stuff that has different branching scheme (or none) will be moved to the source repos as it make sense to be put there. I will wall through the po list tomorow and write a list of those that should be moved here and will do pull requests when I get the read-only on svn for a bit from admins. Cheers Tom
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
I will wall through the po list tomorow and write a list of those that should be moved here and will do pull requests when I get the read-only on svn for a bit from admins.
This drives me a tad nervous now. Where do you want to set an SVN server read-only? It's a no-op to set any directory of https://svn.opensuse.org/svn/opensuse-i18n to 'ro'. At least, not now. We first want to see and become familiar with the new set of tools, before we consider a switch. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Dne St 10. dubna 2013 10:13:40, Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
I will wall through the po list tomorow and write a list of those that should be moved here and will do pull requests when I get the read-only on svn for a bit from admins.
This drives me a tad nervous now. Where do you want to set an SVN server read-only? It's a no-op to set any directory of https://svn.opensuse.org/svn/opensuse-i18n to 'ro'. At least, not now. We first want to see and become familiar with the new set of tools, before we consider a switch.
I need it read-only for a while to move away the files that are not sle branch relevant anyway, so the po files are in the correct place. Then it will be switched back to RW. So something like few hours work and handfull of po files disappearing to the respective devel git trees. After this the svn will be writable and I need to find out wether it will be possible with your tools to use git directly or not. Also wrt the partial svn checkouts you don't loose that as weblate allows you to download only po file you desire to work on, or just some set of po files that are from some common criteria if you don't want to keep the git tree on your local machine. In theory the final git migration of the main translations repo is not such a hard requirement because we could use git-svn (I have to ask Michal if it is possible) but in such case there will be some parts of translations stored in git (even now they are) and some in svn, and we could actually have everything under github and be done with it so there is just one way how to access the stuff. Cheers Tom
Tomáš Chvátal <tchvatal@suse.cz> writes:
I need it read-only for a while to move away the files that are not sle branch relevant anyway, so the po files are in the correct place. Then it will be switched back to RW. So something like few hours work and handfull of po files disappearing to the respective devel git trees.
If the file do not belong to the SVN there, just tell me the names and the reason why, and we will remove them. If they are still needed there, we do not want to mess with the files. If you want to perform experiments, just create a branch "for testing".
After this the svn will be writable and I need to find out wether it will be possible with your tools to use git directly or not. Also wrt the partial svn checkouts you don't loose that as weblate allows you to download only po file you desire to work on, or just some set of po files that are from some common criteria if you don't want to keep the git tree on your local machine.
There are also guys who neither want to use a Web UI nor git. Maybe, we would switch to git, if git would offer advantages for the whole translation process.
In theory the final git migration of the main translations repo is not such a hard requirement because we could use git-svn (I have to ask Michal if it is possible) but in such case there will be some parts of translations stored in git (even now they are) and some in svn, and we could actually have everything under github and be done with it so there is just one way how to access the stuff.
I'm not convinced that I'd like to go that route. Thus far, none of the software translation files I somehow coordinate is stored outside of the translation SVN (that's right now svn.opensuse.org); it is actually a requirement to make use of svn.opensuse.org if you want to have something translated. It has to be discussed with coolo and the openSUSE project leads and the community whether that's the right approach. Of course, nothing it crafted in stone. We can switch repositories if we see clear advantages. But, just some months ago, we switch from berlios to svn.opensuse.org (after switching from novell.com to berlios), and I do not feel comfortable to switch now again. There are more than 100 accounts involved (these are mostly translators and developers who would have to get used to the new location), written documentation here and there, and quite some third party tools you are not aware of. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 11:03 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Of course, nothing it crafted in stone. We can switch repositories if we see clear advantages. But, just some months ago, we switch from berlios to svn.opensuse.org (after switching from novell.com to berlios), and I do not feel comfortable to switch now again. There are more than 100 accounts involved (these are mostly translators and developers who would have to get used to the new location), written documentation here and there, and quite some third party tools you are not aware of.
Indeed. Please consider our current tools, like vertaal, which several teams depend on. It would break and have to be redesigned. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFlNFoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XRwQCdEFp8XuZoSiyLmhOXYBytyiz6 /TEAnjx0Ck70+6ztSzNn76GBBDrcdapA =3sJt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 11:43 10.04.13 wrote:
On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 11:03 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
Of course, nothing it crafted in stone. We can switch repositories if we see clear advantages. But, just some months ago, we switch from berlios to svn.opensuse.org (after switching from novell.com to berlios), and I do not feel comfortable to switch now again. There are more than 100 accounts involved (these are mostly translators and developers who would have to get used to the new location), written documentation here and there, and quite some third party tools you are not aware of.
Indeed.
Please consider our current tools, like vertaal, which several teams depend on. It would break and have to be redesigned.
AFAIK all these tool should be able to handle .po files which can be otained either via got or newly from web interface, so there should be no problem, except that it will lower the barrier for newer contributors. And git even supports real off-line usage which was mentioned in this discussion several times ;-) -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 12:42 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 11:43 10.04.13 wrote:
Please consider our current tools, like vertaal, which several teams depend on. It would break and have to be redesigned.
AFAIK all these tool should be able to handle .po files which can be otained either via got or newly from web interface, so there should be no problem, except that it will lower the barrier for newer contributors.
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned. Please ask Gabriel whether he can do it or not. :-| - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFlh9IACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UPJQCeKSVz7H9oqS4cB14Lo6sfaWDn FWAAnA4AUL5rl77Je5cQWWaVBIbFm8Ut =o8iP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 17:40 10.04.13 wrote:
On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 12:42 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 11:43 10.04.13 wrote:
Please consider our current tools, like vertaal, which several teams depend on. It would break and have to be redesigned.
AFAIK all these tool should be able to handle .po files which can be otained either via got or newly from web interface, so there should be no problem, except that it will lower the barrier for newer contributors.
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned.
So it doesn't have any off-line mode and is hard tied to one particular version control system? Sounds like a strange choice in application design...
Please ask Gabriel whether he can do it or not. :-|
I'll admit that I tried googling for that super cool tool you mentioned, this 'vertaal', but kinda failed, couldn't find it and I obviously have no experience with it. Are there many translators using it? Are there some real benefits over mainstream tools like Localize? Can you provide something more, like url? I even tried searching in obs and couldn't find it... -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Michal Hrusecky <michal@hrusecky.net> wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 17:40 10.04.13 wrote:
On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 12:42 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 11:43 10.04.13 wrote:
Please consider our current tools, like vertaal, which several teams depend on. It would break and have to be redesigned.
AFAIK all these tool should be able to handle .po files which can be otained either via got or newly from web interface, so there should be no problem, except that it will lower the barrier for newer contributors.
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned.
So it doesn't have any off-line mode and is hard tied to one particular version control system? Sounds like a strange choice in application design...
Please ask Gabriel whether he can do it or not. :-|
I'll admit that I tried googling for that super cool tool you mentioned, this 'vertaal', but kinda failed, couldn't find it and I obviously have no experience with it. Are there many translators using it? Are there some real benefits over mainstream tools like Localize? Can you provide something more, like url? I even tried searching in obs and couldn't find it...
http://www.vertaal.com.ar/ Bye
-- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
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Leandro Regueiro - 18:59 10.04.13 wrote:
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Michal Hrusecky <michal@hrusecky.net> wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 17:40 10.04.13 wrote:
On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 12:42 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 11:43 10.04.13 wrote:
Please consider our current tools, like vertaal, which several teams depend on. It would break and have to be redesigned.
AFAIK all these tool should be able to handle .po files which can be otained either via got or newly from web interface, so there should be no problem, except that it will lower the barrier for newer contributors.
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned.
So it doesn't have any off-line mode and is hard tied to one particular version control system? Sounds like a strange choice in application design...
Please ask Gabriel whether he can do it or not. :-|
I'll admit that I tried googling for that super cool tool you mentioned, this 'vertaal', but kinda failed, couldn't find it and I obviously have no experience with it. Are there many translators using it? Are there some real benefits over mainstream tools like Localize? Can you provide something more, like url? I even tried searching in obs and couldn't find it...
So it's web application someone set up and some people are using? Now that close ties to one version control system and not having off-line version makes sense :-D From the proposal, that application will be most probably replaced by Weblate. So web translations will be still possible, interface will change a little bit probably thought. Let's see when Tomas will make some progress and will make a public Weblate instance available to be tested ;-) -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:53 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned.
So it doesn't have any off-line mode and is hard tied to one particular version control system? Sounds like a strange choice in application design...
Please ask Gabriel whether he can do it or not. :-|
I'll admit that I tried googling for that super cool tool you mentioned, this 'vertaal', but kinda failed, couldn't find it and I obviously have no experience with it. Are there many translators using it? Are there some real benefits over mainstream tools like Localize? Can you provide something more, like url? I even tried searching in obs and couldn't find it...
Please document yourself about the tools we translators use here before starting to change all around. You can find ample references to vertaal in this same mail list archive. It is not a translation tool, it is an organization tool. IIRC, the sources were hosted as google project time ago. Now the report a bug points to github. As I said, ask Gabriel. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFl4+cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wq0wCfWzPp+06p5Tl1wCqm+OZbqD6P p4oAn1+PvlAI87wdY6bEuFb40J/UHizf =Fj2d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:53 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned.
So it doesn't have any off-line mode and is hard tied to one particular version control system? Sounds like a strange choice in application design...
Please ask Gabriel whether he can do it or not. :-|
I'll admit that I tried googling for that super cool tool you mentioned, this 'vertaal', but kinda failed, couldn't find it and I obviously have no experience with it. Are there many translators using it? Are there some real benefits over mainstream tools like Localize? Can you provide something more, like url? I even tried searching in obs and couldn't find it...
Please document yourself about the tools we translators use here before starting to change all around. You can find ample references to vertaal in this same mail list archive.
It is not a translation tool, it is an organization tool.
I see it more as translation submission and translation team management tool. Bye
IIRC, the sources were hosted as google project time ago. Now the report a bug points to github.
As I said, ask Gabriel.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
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On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 4:53 AM, Leandro Regueiro <leandro.regueiro@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:53 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
vertaal requires svn, and it downloads and uploads, and other tasks, via svn. If the repo changes to git, it has to be redesigned.
Actually it support any vcs, although I didn't wrote the git adapter as it wasn't necessary.
It is not a translation tool, it is an organization tool.
I see it more as translation submission and translation team management tool.
Both :) On the other hand, if translation files are moved to git, due to the way git works, I won't be hosting Vertaal anymore, even if I had the time to write the adapter. As far as I see, weblate seems quite similar to what Vertaal does. To be honest, I don't see any strong reason for this change. Just MHO -- Kind Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2013-04-11 at 09:38 -0300, Gabriel [SGT] wrote:
It is not a translation tool, it is an organization tool.
I see it more as translation submission and translation team management tool.
Both :)
Yep.
On the other hand, if translation files are moved to git, due to the way git works, I won't be hosting Vertaal anymore, even if I had the time to write the adapter.
As far as I see, weblate seems quite similar to what Vertaal does.
To be honest, I don't see any strong reason for this change. Just MHO
Oh, well... I'll stand aside and observe. If I don't like how all this works out, I'll simply stop contributing translations. I'll contribute more to translationproject.org more, instead. They need help and they use a method I can understand. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFm11YACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UzkACdE6+JdPEcTmB9J6jG7EMlVLmC Hp0An1MWoPwyJNjT9yjnmh8kZEUpnsuH =wrUp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Dne St 10. dubna 2013 11:03:39, Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):
There are more than 100 accounts involved (these are mostly translators and developers who would have to get used to the new location), written documentation here and there, and quite some third party tools you are not aware of.
Yup the users stuff is bit questionable. For the git access users will need to have github account (which is requested anyway if you want to contribute to opensuse tools) or just have login to our bugzilla/lizzard system so they can get via OpenID to the weblate. This also allows that anyone with suse account can sent strings to the weblate and the teams would be just able to review them. Work needed on the weblate side would then be just to click and set leads for each language to let them select the current members. The OpenID thingu is not done yet for weblate but Michal told me that it is not complex to implement. The migration of accounts would be entirely impossible because github manages the access differently than our svn. Tom
Am Mittwoch, 10. April 2013, 14:44:30 schrieb Tomáš Chvátal:
Dne St 10. dubna 2013 11:03:39, Karl Eichwalder napsal(a):
There are more than 100 accounts involved (these are mostly translators and developers who would have to get used to the new location), written documentation here and there, and quite some third party tools you are not aware of.
Yup the users stuff is bit questionable. For the git access users will need to have github account (which is requested anyway if you want to contribute to opensuse tools) or just have login to our bugzilla/lizzard system so they can get via OpenID to the weblate.
Maybe you've already answered this, but why is git necessary? Why can't we use the existing opensuse-svn? (earlier I read you complaining that vertaal doesn't support git, now I have to ask you why your software doesn't support svn(yet?)) Actually I believe your software could have a great potential, it's not like I've seen anything of it yet, but if everything works as you said it certainly sounds interesting. But at the moment it (to my ears) sounds a little bit like you're trying to force it onto everyone (which will most likely fail, nobody wants to be overrun), instead you should take a slower approach and try to convince the people with the actual product. They should use it because they want to use it, because they think it's more comfortable, not because one man shows up on the mailinglist and demands it, because it is BETTER™. And now back to my original question, why can't you write an svn-adapter? This way you could set up a testing platform (where willing teams can test the workflow) right next to our currently established workflow. And if your software really holds up to the promise more and more teams will join it and eventuelly we can open a discussion whether we should completely switch to your software. But this will take it's time, you can't expect everybody to change their workflow because of something that might be, it has to be the other way round: The software has to proof its worthyness. Please don't feel offended, I'm sure you two put much work into that code and again I think sounds like it has potential. But the whole process of localization involves much more than just a piece of software, it requires work (both active and passive) from a lot of people (ranging from organizing teams, managing accounts, communicating with the devs and of course the translation itself) and they have to support your idea too ;-) -- Kind Regards, Michael
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2013-04-11 at 20:33 +0200, Michael Skiba wrote:
Maybe you've already answered this, but why is git necessary? Why can't we use the existing opensuse-svn? (earlier I read you complaining that vertaal doesn't support git, now I have to ask you why your software doesn't support svn(yet?))
Actually I believe your software could have a great potential, it's not like I've seen anything of it yet, but if everything works as you said it certainly sounds interesting. But at the moment it (to my ears) sounds a little bit like you're trying to force it onto everyone (which will most likely fail, nobody wants to be overrun), instead you should take a slower approach and try to convince the people with the actual product. They should use it because they want to use it, because they think it's more comfortable, not because one man shows up on the mailinglist and demands it, because it is BETTER™.
And now back to my original question, why can't you write an svn-adapter? This way you could set up a testing platform (where willing teams can test the workflow) right next to our currently established workflow. And if your software really holds up to the promise more and more teams will join it and eventuelly we can open a discussion whether we should completely switch to your software. But this will take it's time, you can't expect everybody to change their workflow because of something that might be, it has to be the other way round: The software has to proof its worthyness.
Please don't feel offended, I'm sure you two put much work into that code and again I think sounds like it has potential. But the whole process of localization involves much more than just a piece of software, it requires work (both active and passive) from a lot of people (ranging from organizing teams, managing accounts, communicating with the devs and of course the translation itself) and they have to support your idea too ;-)
This looks to me very reasonable. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFncugACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VFjgCfd8vVMBXiiTdWtEatVVpchphF Vw0AniwRv9LMXA+kaRaRl+fLlXjnfwqE =yiJj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dne Čt 11. dubna 2013 20:33:30, Michael Skiba napsal(a): Sorry for not replying sooner, I was busy on Friday with my other project and over the weekend I was slacking outside. Finally we have nice weather :-)
Maybe you've already answered this, but why is git necessary? Why can't we use the existing opensuse-svn? (earlier I read you complaining that vertaal doesn't support git, now I have to ask you why your software doesn't support svn(yet?))
The problem with svn is that you are limited with its featureset so you would have to implement all the required review logic within your app while with git or othed dvcs you get this for free.
Actually I believe your software could have a great potential, it's not like I've seen anything of it yet, but if everything works as you said it certainly sounds interesting. But at the moment it (to my ears) sounds a little bit like you're trying to force it onto everyone (which will most likely fail, nobody wants to be overrun), instead you should take a slower approach and try to convince the people with the actual product. They should use it because they want to use it, because they think it's more comfortable, not because one man shows up on the mailinglist and demands it, because it is BETTER™.
There will be usecase now because the webyast is in git and maintainers do not want their translations in svn, thus I will fire up for those repos the weblate and hopefully if you guys like it we get to propagate everything to it.
And now back to my original question, why can't you write an svn-adapter? This way you could set up a testing platform (where willing teams can test the workflow) right next to our currently established workflow. And if your software really holds up to the promise more and more teams will join it and eventuelly we can open a discussion whether we should completely switch to your software. But this will take it's time, you can't expect everybody to change their workflow because of something that might be, it has to be the other way round: The software has to proof its worthyness.
The svn adapter is simply not possible without having to spent enormous time on the app side to get the reviews working as desired. It is actually matter of 30 minutes with svn->git migration plus few hours of fixing some tools that are binded to use the subversion instead of git in their hooks. I don't expect other to change the workflow thus the app is supposed to be optional, you can use the interface, you can use the merge-branch feature, you can use reviews, but all of these are optional, in the end you just have to check out the git or download the pofile and do whatever you feel like with it.
From my looking on the app Carlos linked here the weblate is quite similar (I was unable to login, it always said that i am registered but login failed) tool, but we plan to integrate it tightly with opensuse connect so you would be able to login with your openSUSE account and have it tied with rest of the services (this also implies you will be able to obtain more contributors because the barrier for inserting/fixing the strings will be way lower).
Cheers Tom
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-15 at 14:00 +0200, Tomáš Chvátal wrote:
There will be usecase now because the webyast is in git and maintainers do not want their translations in svn, thus I will fire up for those repos the weblate and hopefully if you guys like it we get to propagate everything to it.
You can forget webyast. The webyast people do not update the .pot files, so we no nolger translate it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFsgy4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UyVwCdGA5xDK8bbonamarZJ6RkWzLu oE4AnRaeUQuRpZpP/ewbj74g0maeOjbZ =nMcd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
"Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> writes:
You can forget webyast.
The webyast people do not update the .pot files, so we no nolger translate it.
I guess this mostly is because they now have a release cycle that is independent from opensuse and suse release dates. Weblate can probably help us in this case. I'll now remove (svn rm) webyast from trunk. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-04-16 at 08:39 +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
"Carlos E. R." <> writes:
You can forget webyast.
The webyast people do not update the .pot files, so we no nolger translate it.
I guess this mostly is because they now have a release cycle that is independent from opensuse and suse release dates. Weblate can probably help us in this case. I'll now remove (svn rm) webyast from trunk.
Well, what is in the release is a certain version, but they could have provided the strings anytime in the year. They could have explained to us their problems and needs. Thanks for removing it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFtPBoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X4swCePIi6SgxydTzmp5mZuLKF0vD+ 6sIAnihwOVNOpK63o2wh2oeJ3X7BCIj2 =kmKP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
må. den 15. 04. 2013 klokka 14.00 (+0200) skreiv Tomáš Chvátal:
I don't expect other to change the workflow thus the app is supposed to be optional, you can use the interface, you can use the merge-branch feature, you can use reviews, but all of these are optional, in the end you just have to check out the git or download the pofile and do whatever you feel like with it.
I’m not sure I understand correctly. Will we be able to do just do a git pull [to fetch *all* the .po files] ... do the translation using Lokalize and other tools ... git commit ? That sounds like a good solution. I will not use a Web-based translation system, for various reasons (e.g., we use several tools and scripts to ensure quality translations, and all Web-based solutions I have tried have turned out to be slow, inefficient and detrimental to good quality translations). BTW, I don’t really understand why the translation files for openSUSE are often outdated, and the need to move to Git. In KDE, which I also translate for, most applications have moved to Git, but the translations stay in SVN (Git gives us no advantages over SVN, and would only complicate the lives of translators). And the translations templates stay in a central directory http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n-kde4/templates/messages/ and are *automatically* updated *every day* (if the source code is changed, of course). The same is true for the translation files (.po files); they are merged with the template files each day. So there are never any outdated POT or PO files. For handling various branches of applications, some teams (including ours) use the very powerful Summit framework: http://pology.nedohodnik.net/doc/user/en_US/ch-summit.html (I cannot emphasise enough how powerful this framework is. For example, it can keep track of translations across branches where a PO file has been moved, removed, renamed, split into several files (e.g. into where one application has been split into application + library), or merged with other files into a new file.) -- Karl Ove Hufthammer http://huftis.org/ Jabber: karl@huftis.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304211637340.27588@Telcontar.valinor> On Sunday, 2013-04-21 at 15:54 +0200, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
må. den 15. 04. 2013 klokka 14.00 (+0200) skreiv Tomáš Chvátal:
I’m not sure I understand correctly. Will we be able to do just do a
git pull [to fetch *all* the .po files] ... do the translation using Lokalize and other tools ... git commit
?
That sounds like a good solution. I will not use a Web-based translation system, for various reasons (e.g., we use several tools and scripts to ensure quality translations, and all Web-based solutions I have tried have turned out to be slow, inefficient and detrimental to good quality translations).
But that will not work for the teams that use vertaal, it is the end for us. And of course, all my scripts and procedures will stop working, I'd have to find out if I can do the same with git. More work. And I will not use a webtool to do the actual translation, same as you. I did have a look at Weblate. The wikipedia article has a prominent note: This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral. Please help improve it by replacing them with more appropriate citations to reliable, independent, third-party sources. (March 2013) There is a link to a demo, though. I don't even know what to see there, there are no videos, slides, nothing. And I'm not going to create an account to try to find out how I'm supposed to do things with it. I'm supposed to buy it, so sell it to me.
BTW, I don’t really understand why the translation files for openSUSE are often outdated, and the need to move to Git. In KDE, which I also translate for, most applications have moved to Git, but the translations stay in SVN (Git gives us no advantages over SVN, and would only complicate the lives of translators). And the translations templates stay in a central directory
That sounds very good to me. I do not collaborate, but I read the "Kde-l10n-es" mail list. I understand that translators are assigned files by a person (a coordinator). In the GNU translation project, where I collaborate a bit, people are asigned files by the team coordinator. Then we receive an email indicating that we have to work, and a link to download the .po file. We translate it and send it back by email. A robot receives it, accepting or rejecting it automatically. Somehow, it is submitted to each project. Here, some teams use vertaal to automatically handle asignation of files, and also download/updates them if they want. If we are forced to use git, vertaal breaks, and the whole thing collapses, it has to be redone from scratch. Thus I'll be out. It is already difficult to find volunteer translators, there is no interest. None else from the Spanish team has even bothered to say a word in our mail list. If SUSE changes the translation system, it is up to them to find again translators and organize it all. Not my problem. I use the system in English, anyway. I'm not motivated to start it all over again... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlFz+5oACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U2IACfQKJDXz3CamsNRhHhpeLzcTsB RlsAnA9qfuqe1T7eHZdtfvhzoMBTcc5l =mASw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. - 16:45 21.04.13 wrote:
Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304211637340.27588@Telcontar.valinor>
On Sunday, 2013-04-21 at 15:54 +0200, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
må. den 15. 04. 2013 klokka 14.00 (+0200) skreiv Tomáš Chvátal:
I’m not sure I understand correctly. Will we be able to do just do a
git pull [to fetch *all* the .po files] ... do the translation using Lokalize and other tools ... git commit
?
That sounds like a good solution. I will not use a Web-based translation system, for various reasons (e.g., we use several tools and scripts to ensure quality translations, and all Web-based solutions I have tried have turned out to be slow, inefficient and detrimental to good quality translations).
But that will not work for the teams that use vertaal, it is the end for us. And of course, all my scripts and procedures will stop working, I'd have to find out if I can do the same with git. More work.
Which is webtool, not integrated with openSUSE infrastructure and as such used by selected few. Apart from that feature wise Weblate should be able to replace it on top of being actively maintained independent project.
And I will not use a webtool to do the actual translation, same as you.
So no point in complaining about vertaal ;-)
I did have a look at Weblate. The wikipedia article has a prominent note:
This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral. Please help improve it by replacing them with more appropriate citations to reliable, independent, third-party sources. (March 2013)
There is a link to a demo, though. I don't even know what to see there, there are no videos, slides, nothing. And I'm not going to create an account to try to find out how I'm supposed to do things with it. I'm supposed to buy it, so sell it to me.
Which means that nobody cared enough to put more info on weblate. On Weblate demo page, you have credentials that you can use *without any registration* to check how it works. If you are interested in more, there was a presentation last year on oSC. You can watch presentation on youtube. But I'm quite sure there is more that you can easily find using google. As for vertaal that you keep bringing up, google wasn't able to find anything, which makes it really relevant compared to software that has even Wikipedia page, although with not enough references yet. I know, you pointed me to some guy, that you know, who developed it, but that is not the point ;-)
BTW, I don’t really understand why the translation files for openSUSE are often outdated, and the need to move to Git. In KDE, which I also translate for, most applications have moved to Git, but the translations stay in SVN (Git gives us no advantages over SVN, and would only complicate the lives of translators). And the translations templates stay in a central directory
That sounds very good to me.
I do not collaborate, but I read the "Kde-l10n-es" mail list. I understand that translators are assigned files by a person (a coordinator).
In the GNU translation project, where I collaborate a bit, people are asigned files by the team coordinator. Then we receive an email indicating that we have to work, and a link to download the .po file. We translate it and send it back by email. A robot receives it, accepting or rejecting it automatically. Somehow, it is submitted to each project.
Here, some teams use vertaal to automatically handle asignation of files, and also download/updates them if they want. If we are forced to use git, vertaal breaks, and the whole thing collapses, it has to be redone from scratch.
Or better, whole workflow will be migrated to git+optional weblate and *documented* as currently it differs per team.
Thus I'll be out.
Don't be so negative, without even giving it a try ;-)
It is already difficult to find volunteer translators, there is no interest. None else from the Spanish team has even bothered to say a word in our mail list.
Which is why Weblate could actually help. It will lower the initial barrier to let people translate just few things they care about and translation team could just approve it. If it's easy and well documented, we can promote hell out of it and we don't need to worry if people want to translate just 20 sentences. Currently managing overhead will be really high. But if we can get hundred people translating 20 sentences and some of them will like it...
If SUSE changes the translation system, it is up to them to find again translators and organize it all. Not my problem. I use the system in English, anyway.
Again, It's not SUSE. It's one community member who tried to improve current situation and make it easier and attract new translators. Who wanted to help and found people who don't want to hear/try new ways and resist all changes.
I'm not motivated to start it all over again...
-- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304220310042.27588@Telcontar.valinor> On Sunday, 2013-04-21 at 22:09 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 16:45 21.04.13 wrote:
But that will not work for the teams that use vertaal, it is the end for us. And of course, all my scripts and procedures will stop working, I'd have to find out if I can do the same with git. More work.
Which is webtool, not integrated with openSUSE infrastructure and as such used by selected few. Apart from that feature wise Weblate should be able to replace it on top of being actively maintained independent project.
Vertaal is a tool designed by members of this community to help translators with our jobs, because SUSE wanted the job done but did not have any such tool. We had to do it ourselves. It is not hosted on openSUSE infrastructure, but it could. Just ask Gabriel, I guess he is paying himself for the current hosting with his own money. Prove that weblate does that and more.
And I will not use a webtool to do the actual translation, same as you.
So no point in complaining about vertaal ;-)
Vertaal is not used to do the actual translation.
I did have a look at Weblate. The wikipedia article has a prominent note:
This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral. Please help improve it by replacing them with more appropriate citations to reliable, independent, third-party sources. (March 2013)
There is a link to a demo, though. I don't even know what to see there, there are no videos, slides, nothing. And I'm not going to create an account to try to find out how I'm supposed to do things with it. I'm supposed to buy it, so sell it to me.
Which means that nobody cared enough to put more info on weblate. On Weblate demo page, you have credentials that you can use *without any registration* to check how it works. If you are interested in more, there was a presentation last year on oSC. You can watch presentation on youtube. But I'm quite sure there is more that you can easily find using google. As for vertaal that you keep bringing up, google wasn't able to find anything, which makes it really relevant compared to software that has even Wikipedia page, although with not enough references yet. I know, you pointed me to some guy, that you know, who developed it, but that is not the point ;-)
It is you people that want us to use weblate. You are not asking us, you are simply doing it. Thus show it to us, prove to us how it works. I'm not going to google for it. Make videos, demos, whatever, put the links here. I'm not going to do the effort of learning this time, you will do that for us.
Or better, whole workflow will be migrated to git+optional weblate and *documented* as currently it differs per team.
Thus I'll be out.
Don't be so negative, without even giving it a try ;-)
I'm not negative. I have been doing this from the start. I had to find out how to do it, work hard, and teach others. I have invested many hundreds of hours in this. Now you people want us to do it differently, change it all, and I'm simply not buying it. I will not start over unless you convince me. Systemd was forced upon us by the developers. We had to accept it because we can't refuse. This is the same, it is forced into us; with the difference that this time you need translators to do the working. I say I don't like it and I'm not playing. If you want me to play, sell it to me.
If SUSE changes the translation system, it is up to them to find again translators and organize it all. Not my problem. I use the system in English, anyway.
Again, It's not SUSE. It's one community member who tried to improve current situation and make it easier and attract new translators. Who wanted to help and found people who don't want to hear/try new ways and resist all changes.
No. It is somebody with a suse email address, so to me it is SUSE. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF0kwsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wq8wCgmF5EY8SbvchHwVyzcW2waIIF CEUAn0UBxazR3UkAj6Ndxb0On3PFAXyi =4NFt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 3:31 22.04.13 wrote:
Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304220310042.27588@Telcontar.valinor>
On Sunday, 2013-04-21 at 22:09 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 16:45 21.04.13 wrote:
But that will not work for the teams that use vertaal, it is the end for us. And of course, all my scripts and procedures will stop working, I'd have to find out if I can do the same with git. More work.
Which is webtool, not integrated with openSUSE infrastructure and as such used by selected few. Apart from that feature wise Weblate should be able to replace it on top of being actively maintained independent project.
Vertaal is a tool designed by members of this community to help translators with our jobs, because SUSE wanted the job done but did not have any such tool. We had to do it ourselves.
It is not hosted on openSUSE infrastructure, but it could. Just ask Gabriel, I guess he is paying himself for the current hosting with his own money.
So Tomas was trying to do it the right way - get open source software with active upstream, get it hosted on openSUSE infrastructure and document it. No disrespect to what Gabriel did for you.
Prove that weblate does that and more.
Somebody already said that in this discussion. I'm not going to do that as your workflow is not documented and simply I don't care that much to spend hours comparing tools and undocumented workflow to hear in that end that I didn't take into consideration something that was impossible to find.
And I will not use a webtool to do the actual translation, same as you.
So no point in complaining about vertaal ;-)
Vertaal is not used to do the actual translation.
So say what it is used for and how do you use it, so Tomas could tell you how to do that with git/weblate.
I did have a look at Weblate. The wikipedia article has a prominent note:
This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral. Please help improve it by replacing them with more appropriate citations to reliable, independent, third-party sources. (March 2013)
There is a link to a demo, though. I don't even know what to see there, there are no videos, slides, nothing. And I'm not going to create an account to try to find out how I'm supposed to do things with it. I'm supposed to buy it, so sell it to me.
Which means that nobody cared enough to put more info on weblate. On Weblate demo page, you have credentials that you can use *without any registration* to check how it works. If you are interested in more, there was a presentation last year on oSC. You can watch presentation on youtube. But I'm quite sure there is more that you can easily find using google. As for vertaal that you keep bringing up, google wasn't able to find anything, which makes it really relevant compared to software that has even Wikipedia page, although with not enough references yet. I know, you pointed me to some guy, that you know, who developed it, but that is not the point ;-)
It is you people that want us to use weblate. You are not asking us, you are simply doing it. Thus show it to us, prove to us how it works. I'm not going to google for it. Make videos, demos, whatever, put the links here. I'm not going to do the effort of learning this time, you will do that for us.
Presentation from last oSC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVlXt6QdgdA Demo: http://demo.weblate.org/ login: demo pass: demo
Or better, whole workflow will be migrated to git+optional weblate and *documented* as currently it differs per team.
Thus I'll be out.
Don't be so negative, without even giving it a try ;-)
I'm not negative. I have been doing this from the start. I had to find out how to do it, work hard, and teach others. I have invested many hundreds of hours in this.
Which is appreciated. And Tomas is trying to make it easier not only for newcomers so people wouldn't have to work hard to learn everything and can just translate stuff.
Now you people want us to do it differently, change it all, and I'm simply not buying it. I will not start over unless you convince me.
As probably agree, there are few issues, for example: * finding new translators is not easy * translation fixes are not always propagated to the older releases Which Tomas was trying to address and you just keep repeating that you don't want to learn anything new. That I call negative ;-)
Systemd was forced upon us by the developers. We had to accept it because we can't refuse. This is the same, it is forced into us; with the difference that this time you need translators to do the working. I say I don't like it and I'm not playing.
We didn't had to accept systemd. But nobody cared enough. This time it was *sugested* by one guy who does a lot of translations and wanted to make openSUSE translators live easier.
If you want me to play, sell it to me.
If SUSE changes the translation system, it is up to them to find again translators and organize it all. Not my problem. I use the system in English, anyway.
Again, It's not SUSE. It's one community member who tried to improve current situation and make it easier and attract new translators. Who wanted to help and found people who don't want to hear/try new ways and resist all changes.
No.
It is somebody with a suse email address, so to me it is SUSE.
SUSE is not trying to do anything in this regards, just one guy who does it in his free time and who happens to work for SUSE. He is also Gentoo developer. Do you suggest that, that Gentoo is trying to impose something? He is also KDE contributor, so is KDE conspiring together with SUSE and Gentoo to stop you translating? -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 07:11 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 3:31 22.04.13 wrote:
Prove that weblate does that and more.
Somebody already said that in this discussion. I'm not going to do that as your workflow is not documented and simply I don't care that much to spend hours comparing tools and undocumented workflow to hear in that end that I didn't take into consideration something that was impossible to find.
It is documented. You people have not bothered to ask us. :-/
And I will not use a webtool to do the actual translation, same as you.
So no point in complaining about vertaal ;-)
Vertaal is not used to do the actual translation.
So say what it is used for and how do you use it, so Tomas could tell you how to do that with git/weblate.
lokalize, kbabel, poedit... Even emacs. I have by now watched the video, and I have not seen that demonstrated. I don't see how a team coordinator can assign a file to a single translator, how can that translator download and submit the file. Or how can a team member request, lock, and download a file. All that are things that vertaal does.
Presentation from last oSC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVlXt6QdgdA
Demo:
login: demo pass: demo
Ok, seen it, and tried it. It is just a tool to do translations online with some interesting features. I will not work online. I do not see how team coordinators can assign jobs. I'm not convinced.
I'm not negative. I have been doing this from the start. I had to find out how to do it, work hard, and teach others. I have invested many hundreds of hours in this.
Which is appreciated. And Tomas is trying to make it easier not only for newcomers so people wouldn't have to work hard to learn everything and can just translate stuff.
But you are in fact making it way harder for _me_.
Now you people want us to do it differently, change it all, and I'm simply not buying it. I will not start over unless you convince me.
As probably agree, there are few issues, for example:
* finding new translators is not easy * translation fixes are not always propagated to the older releases
As said in another post, fixes in older releases will not make into an update unless the release/update manager approves it first, no matter if you have the string corrected in git or elsewhere.
Which Tomas was trying to address and you just keep repeating that you don't want to learn anything new. That I call negative ;-)
It is realistic. I don't see why I should use something new when what we use now is perfect. <http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/openSUSE-12.3/toplist.php>
Systemd was forced upon us by the developers. We had to accept it because we can't refuse. This is the same, it is forced into us; with the difference that this time you need translators to do the working. I say I don't like it and I'm not playing.
We didn't had to accept systemd. But nobody cared enough. This time it was *sugested* by one guy who does a lot of translations and wanted to make openSUSE translators live easier.
Without asking translators _here_ first. I don't call that "suggestion". I call that "impossition".
If SUSE changes the translation system, it is up to them to find again translators and organize it all. Not my problem. I use the system in English, anyway.
Again, It's not SUSE. It's one community member who tried to improve current situation and make it easier and attract new translators. Who wanted to help and found people who don't want to hear/try new ways and resist all changes.
No.
It is somebody with a suse email address, so to me it is SUSE.
SUSE is not trying to do anything in this regards, just one guy who does it in his free time and who happens to work for SUSE. He is also Gentoo developer. Do you suggest that, that Gentoo is trying to impose something? He is also KDE contributor, so is KDE conspiring together with SUSE and Gentoo to stop you translating?
I'm not buying it. He has an official SUSE email address, so he is SUSE to me. As far as I'm concerned, and no matter your denials, it is SUSE who is pushing this on us; so it is SUSE game, not mine, nor the community any longer. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF1KkMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XRMACgjUIoOl0tYF1pA7C6WEoxakOj HIsAmwaYVUrreItvbsAvkefWiysqnr69 =UtP8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 14:17 22.04.13 wrote:
On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 07:11 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 3:31 22.04.13 wrote:
Prove that weblate does that and more.
Somebody already said that in this discussion. I'm not going to do that as your workflow is not documented and simply I don't care that much to spend hours comparing tools and undocumented workflow to hear in that end that I didn't take into consideration something that was impossible to find.
It is documented.
You people have not bothered to ask us. :-/
If everybody needs to ask around, that means it's not documented. I asked, you told me to ask Gabriel.
...
Which Tomas was trying to address and you just keep repeating that you don't want to learn anything new. That I call negative ;-)
It is realistic. I don't see why I should use something new when what we use now is perfect.
I don't see 100% everywhere, only three ;-)
Systemd was forced upon us by the developers. We had to accept it because we can't refuse. This is the same, it is forced into us; with the difference that this time you need translators to do the working. I say I don't like it and I'm not playing.
We didn't had to accept systemd. But nobody cared enough. This time it was *sugested* by one guy who does a lot of translations and wanted to make openSUSE translators live easier.
Without asking translators _here_ first. I don't call that "suggestion". I call that "impossition".
And where did that first e-mail that greatly upset you went if not here?
If SUSE changes the translation system, it is up to them to find again translators and organize it all. Not my problem. I use the system in English, anyway.
Again, It's not SUSE. It's one community member who tried to improve current situation and make it easier and attract new translators. Who wanted to help and found people who don't want to hear/try new ways and resist all changes.
No.
It is somebody with a suse email address, so to me it is SUSE.
SUSE is not trying to do anything in this regards, just one guy who does it in his free time and who happens to work for SUSE. He is also Gentoo developer. Do you suggest that, that Gentoo is trying to impose something? He is also KDE contributor, so is KDE conspiring together with SUSE and Gentoo to stop you translating?
I'm not buying it.
He has an official SUSE email address, so he is SUSE to me. As far as I'm concerned, and no matter your denials, it is SUSE who is pushing this on us; so it is SUSE game, not mine, nor the community any longer.
So you consider community member only unemployed people because otherwise they have some secret agenda on behalf of companies they are working for? Must be hard, conspiracies everywhere :-D Anyway, I think it was a cool idea, unfortunately I heard that Tomas is not going to work on it anymore for whole openSUSE (just for WebYaST) as instead of constructive discussion all he got back was this nonsense. So I'll stop wasting time on it as well. -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 16:00 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
He has an official SUSE email address, so he is SUSE to me. As far as I'm concerned, and no matter your denials, it is SUSE who is pushing this on us; so it is SUSE game, not mine, nor the community any longer.
So you consider community member only unemployed people because otherwise they have some secret agenda on behalf of companies they are working for? Must be hard, conspiracies everywhere :-D
Anyway, I think it was a cool idea, unfortunately I heard that Tomas is not going to work on it anymore for whole openSUSE (just for WebYaST) as instead of constructive discussion all he got back was this nonsense. So I'll stop wasting time on it as well.
I expect more tact from people employed by SUSE, not impossitions. What you people said proves that you don't know the translator community here, and made no effort to improve that. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF1wUEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VYfACff0c9eKGvFn309kdaOyeQMdch e1oAn3Ah6PegBTYgEGP2TUra0b2kGC// =qHCc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 1:01 23.04.13 wrote:
On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 16:00 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
He has an official SUSE email address, so he is SUSE to me. As far as I'm concerned, and no matter your denials, it is SUSE who is pushing this on us; so it is SUSE game, not mine, nor the community any longer.
So you consider community member only unemployed people because otherwise they have some secret agenda on behalf of companies they are working for? Must be hard, conspiracies everywhere :-D
Anyway, I think it was a cool idea, unfortunately I heard that Tomas is not going to work on it anymore for whole openSUSE (just for WebYaST) as instead of constructive discussion all he got back was this nonsense. So I'll stop wasting time on it as well.
I expect more tact from people employed by SUSE, not impossitions. What you people said proves that you don't know the translator community here, and made no effort to improve that.
I still don't get why you expect different things from people who happen to work for SUSE than from anybody else. I don't see anything tactless on proposing to improve current status and willing to do all the heavy lifting. Yelling don't change anything and I don't want to learn anything new and you are evil corporate guy (because you happen to work for company that donates a lot of resources to the project) on the other hand... I would expect more open mind from community guy ;-) But we are getting really off-topic here... And yes, I'll admit, we don't know undocumented closed work-flow of Spanish translators community. -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-04-23 at 08:41 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Carlos E. R. - 1:01 23.04.13 wrote:
Yelling don't change anything
Who is yelling? THIS IS YELLING. I don't see any of that here.
And yes, I'll admit, we don't know undocumented closed work-flow of Spanish translators community.
It is fully documented. In Spanish, of course. <https://es.opensuse.org/Traduccion> - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF8csgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UqdwCfcA65FFzUlpfUHQ+vFKj9fgmz a0AAniOcTo/OGiQd/+nCfja4B7GF8ScB =13NY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. - 2:52 28.04.13 wrote:
...
And yes, I'll admit, we don't know undocumented closed work-flow of Spanish translators community.
It is fully documented. In Spanish, of course.
My point exactly ;-) -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 07:17 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
My point exactly ;-)
Why should the Spanish team document things in English? Or the French in English? We use our own languages. Some have their own mail lists. Each team has their own different procedures. /That/ is how we work. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF+eVcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WMQwCeIGZ5SSc+nzG/6dsxMPcLVNWO 5/MAnAyGyVVZphpwuIDR43aiuP2i1InE =EeSu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 07:17 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
My point exactly ;-)
Why should the Spanish team document things in English? Or the French in English? We use our own languages. Some have their own mail lists. Each team has their own different procedures.
Perhaps I should create some tool and document it in Czech, of course. You would certainly understand and appreciate it. Ecpeecially when I would use it as argument against deployment of other tool Whatever is documented in language other than English is not documented at all. Like it or not, but English is "Lingua Franca" of IT. I'm reading whole thread and, well I can't believe my eyes since you joined it. Don't you really see how ridiculous you look? I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour. There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not. Given your behaviour, it is really awkward to read from _you_ that _you_ would expect more tact from others while showing none.
- -- Cheers,
Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlF+eVcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WMQwCeIGZ5SSc+nzG/6dsxMPcLVNWO 5/MAnAyGyVVZphpwuIDR43aiuP2i1InE =EeSu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-- Vit Pelcak ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For all wankers from US Government reading my personal stuff according to fascist laws like Patriot Act: Make the world a better place. Go jump off a bridge. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 15:53 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Why should the Spanish team document things in English? Or the French in English? We use our own languages. Some have their own mail lists. Each team has their own different procedures.
Perhaps I should create some tool and document it in Czech, of course. You would certainly understand and appreciate it. Ecpeecially when I would use it as argument against deployment of other tool Whatever is documented in language other than English is not documented at all. Like it or not, but English is "Lingua Franca" of IT.
Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince us :-) Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can then simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain. But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own people who has to read it.
I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.
Nor yours :-)
There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without the translator community having any thing to say or do. And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working on translations, I would have to quit.
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not.
It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community developed and implemented when they saw we needed something. It is not the first tool or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one, yet. I'm just a happy user of this tool. If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain it. Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF+jaAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VAcwCggF9ae1GzKgqe0RVxxVdmp2FO aEsAnAt4bkf6uzUfu9zUtjUIy4B6RWnt =38o/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
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On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 15:53 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Why should the Spanish team document things in English? Or the French in English? We use our own languages. Some have their own mail lists. Each team has their own different procedures.
Perhaps I should create some tool and document it in Czech, of course. You would certainly understand and appreciate it. Ecpeecially when I would use it as argument against deployment of other tool Whatever is documented in language other than English is not documented at all. Like it or not, but English is "Lingua Franca" of IT.
Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince us :-)
Pardon me? I don't remember me proposing anything.
Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can then simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain.
In that case, you cannot wonder that there is attempt to unify current mess, when you don't tell anybody about your tool and basically nobody uses it.
But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own people who has to read it.
And that might actually be the reason why there is attempt to implement some tool. Nobody knows about yours, so it was assumed that there are none such in place.
I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.
Nor yours :-)
Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just complain and are overall unconstructive.
There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without the translator community having any thing to say or do.
As I said, nobody knew about your tool, it was assumed, that there is none. Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which would make everyone happy. Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving current suboptimal situation. And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or not.
And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working on translations, I would have to quit.
While current situation makes many people not to start at all.
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not.
It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community developed and implemented when they saw we needed something.
"Your" means, tool (only) your team uses. Which is correct. It is not the first tool
or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one, yet. I'm just a happy user of this tool.
One of ... er ... three users? So, do you mean it in a way, that it is OK if those three people block improvement for the remaining languages?
If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain it. Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting.
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before. Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence "OK, I'm going to implement this". Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none. Regards Vit Pelcak
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlF+jaAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VAcwCggF9ae1GzKgqe0RVxxVdmp2FO aEsAnAt4bkf6uzUfu9zUtjUIy4B6RWnt =38o/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- Vit Pelcak ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For all wankers from US Government reading my personal stuff according to fascist laws like Patriot Act: Make the world a better place. Go jump off a bridge. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Vít Pelčák <v.pelcak@gmail.com> wrote:
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before.
Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence "OK, I'm going to implement this".
Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none.
I can't help but feel insulted by this thread, everything I read is an attack to the tool I developed. The only reason for the existence of Vertaal was to provide a way to organize a task, that otherwise, would be a mess. Vertaal born in 2009, replacing a previous tool also developed by me, named POAT. A basic documentation for users exists https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide that's all (no, you won't find it in google, all robots are disabled) It was meant for openSUSE only, that's the reason it doesn't support (yet) git, and because I don't want to host all the space required for git. I didn't want to sell it for anything else but openSUSE. I know someone created the project in transifex, so, there is another tool too, why don't we use transifex instead (which for me is very very similar of what I could see of weblate) There was a suggestion to introduce weblate and move to git. I'm not against that, the only thing I'm against it's the branch merging, if that is optional, I'm good. I can't even stop wasting my money maintaining the Vertaal VPS. Of course, this is only my very personal opinion. -- Kind Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:48:37 -0300 "Gabriel [SGT]" <gabriel@opensuse.org> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Vít Pelčák <v.pelcak@gmail.com> wrote:
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before. ... I can't help but feel insulted by this thread, everything I read is an attack to the tool I developed.
Problem is that Tomáš probably searched for tools, did not find yours http://www.vertaal.com.ar so he could not see that there are some translations. After he did some work to provide web based translation tool and proudly announced that there is now centralized server for all openSUSE translation needs. What he found out is outright rejection with very little to no information how current process is working. I doubt that Tomáš did not try to search mail lists, but without knowing exact name of translation server, I would be surprised that he found anything.
The only reason for the existence of Vertaal was to provide a way to organize a task, that otherwise, would be a mess. Vertaal born in 2009, replacing a previous tool also developed by me, named POAT.
A basic documentation for users exists https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide that's all (no, you won't find it in google, all robots are disabled)
As you may noticed, if it would be accessible by Google, then translation list would, most likely, not see whole this discussion that showed how easy is to break community project. One bad day for one vocal contributor, when he expects that everyone know what he knows, probably spiced with problems to learn and debug new system components, that creates an argument with people willing to give their time to openSUSE project, just as you do, and we have cracks in a community.
It was meant for openSUSE only, that's the reason it doesn't support (yet) git, and because I don't want to host all the space required for git. I didn't want to sell it for anything else but openSUSE.
I know someone created the project in transifex, so, there is another tool too, why don't we use transifex instead (which for me is very very similar of what I could see of weblate)
https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/opensuse-manuals/ someone is Margerite, that is contributing to openSUSE, and most likely she did not find Vertaal too. https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/openSUSE-packages/ there is only Russian translation active. As there is Russian translation of Factory in Vertaal, it seems that they don't communicate among themselves quite well.
There was a suggestion to introduce weblate and move to git. I'm not against that, the only thing I'm against it's the branch merging, if that is optional, I'm good. I can't even stop wasting my money maintaining the Vertaal VPS.
I don't see why is branch merging a problem. I'm not active as translator, so I have no idea why merging may present a problem. If you have some example to help understanding.
Of course, this is only my very personal opinion.
:-) We all express our opinion.
-- Kind Regards
-- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304300607410.27450@Telcontar.valinor> On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 19:21 -0500, Rajko wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:48:37 -0300 "Gabriel [SGT]" <> wrote:
... I can't help but feel insulted by this thread, everything I read is an attack to the tool I developed.
Problem is that Tomáš probably searched for tools, did not find yours http://www.vertaal.com.ar so he could not see that there are some translations. After he did some work to provide web based translation tool and proudly announced that there is now centralized server for all openSUSE translation needs.
What he found out is outright rejection with very little to no information how current process is working. I doubt that Tomáš did not try to search mail lists, but without knowing exact name of translation server, I would be surprised that he found anything.
But why did he not ask us first? The mail list is published in the list of mail lists at opensuse. Or even ask in the general mail lists where to find the translators. People now and then come and ask us to translate things, so we are findable. <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_lists> We would have been very happy to explain our procedures and this would not have happened. Instead, we suddenly find out that our existing procedures and tools are going to be replaced. First news. Not asking us, just doing it. Are you really surprised of the rejection? :-o
The only reason for the existence of Vertaal was to provide a way to organize a task, that otherwise, would be a mess. Vertaal born in 2009, replacing a previous tool also developed by me, named POAT.
A basic documentation for users exists https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide that's all (no, you won't find it in google, all robots are disabled)
As you may noticed, if it would be accessible by Google, then translation list would, most likely, not see whole this discussion that showed how easy is to break community project.
Maybe it is just not possible to have it accesible by google. :-?
One bad day for one vocal contributor, when he expects that everyone know what he knows, probably spiced with problems to learn and debug new system components, that creates an argument with people willing to give their time to openSUSE project, just as you do, and we have cracks in a community.
True. :-(
It was meant for openSUSE only, that's the reason it doesn't support (yet) git, and because I don't want to host all the space required for git. I didn't want to sell it for anything else but openSUSE.
I know someone created the project in transifex, so, there is another tool too, why don't we use transifex instead (which for me is very very similar of what I could see of weblate)
https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/opensuse-manuals/ someone is Margerite, that is contributing to openSUSE, and most likely she did not find Vertaal too.
https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/openSUSE-packages/ there is only Russian translation active. As there is Russian translation of Factory in Vertaal, it seems that they don't communicate among themselves quite well.
Notice that vertaal is not a translation tool. It is a team organization tool, and an easy interface to download and submit the files we translate. It does not serve to edit and translate strings, that is done with standard tools like poedit, lokalize, kbabel, even emacs. Each team chooses to use it or anything else they prefer.
There was a suggestion to introduce weblate and move to git. I'm not against that, the only thing I'm against it's the branch merging, if that is optional, I'm good. I can't even stop wasting my money maintaining the Vertaal VPS.
I don't see why is branch merging a problem. I'm not active as translator, so I have no idea why merging may present a problem. If you have some example to help understanding.
Well, for example some teams voted to keep the translations from SLES and openSUSE separate. We do not want their strings. Then, a file might be translated differently from one version to the next. Ideally, a file is translated whole by a single translator so that the language is uniform. This can break if you move strings from one version to the next.
Of course, this is only my very personal opinion.
:-) We all express our opinion.
True. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF/Q/cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WrFACeL5khmcFbnUcYFbRa+avsKYE6 +vMAn2nSmqeQmzHli2lIpjQCH1s/otG1 =OMKg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304292118320.27450@Telcontar.valinor> On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 19:02 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince us :-)
Pardon me? I don't remember me proposing anything.
Sorry, I confuse names. This is your second post in this mail list since 2006 at least. Welcome, newcommer. Who are you, then? :-?
Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can then simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain.
In that case, you cannot wonder that there is attempt to unify current mess, when you don't tell anybody about your tool and basically nobody uses it.
Mess? :-o Nobody? :-o Vertaal is currently used by these openSUSE translation teams: Italian Russian Hungarian German Czech Greek Spanish Arabic Brazilian Portuguese French Galician Portuguese Punjabi Catalan Turkish Georgian
But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own people who has to read it.
And that might actually be the reason why there is attempt to implement some tool. Nobody knows about yours, so it was assumed that there are none such in place.
We are the people doing the translations, and we know about the tools we can use. It is you, newcommer, who don't know. Ask the team translating your language, join it, and contribute :-)
I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.
Nor yours :-)
Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just complain and are overall unconstructive.
We are already here doing things. You want to come and change how we do things... the onus is on you, not us.
There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without the translator community having any thing to say or do.
As I said, nobody knew about your tool, it was assumed, that there is none.
You people did not bother to ask us first.
Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which would make everyone happy.
As said, the onus is on the people wanting to change the current system.
Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving current suboptimal situation.
But he is not a member of the translator community here.
And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or not.
I was not the only one complaining. I'm the one putting more words into it. How many posts do you here from translators saying "yeah, lets do it!"?
And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working on translations, I would have to quit.
While current situation makes many people not to start at all.
They are free to contribute... There are languages that have only one person or two, an they use their own methods (and tools). It is a lot of work, some languages started not long ago and have much to catch up. Some other languages may even have financial contributions...
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not.
It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community developed and implemented when they saw we needed something.
"Your" means, tool (only) your team uses. Which is correct.
Several language teams, dude.
It is not the first tool
or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one, yet. I'm just a happy user of this tool.
One of ... er ... three users?
How do you count the number of users?
So, do you mean it in a way, that it is OK if those three people block improvement for the remaining languages?
Again, how do you count the number of users? Let me see... 11 people on the german team. 9 on the Italian. 32 on the French. 12 on the Spanish. And there are more teams. Say again... 3 people? :-O
If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain it. Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting.
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before.
Why? People wanting to contribute translations find the translation wiki, find the mail list, and ask to join. We guide them to the documentation they need and teach them with what they need. For example, I looked at the general wiki, <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide>. From there I found the wiki of the French team, and there I found a link to vertaal documentation here <https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide>, in English. It is not that difficult to find...
Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence "OK, I'm going to implement this".
Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none.
The openSUSE translator community knows about it. You don't know about it because you don't contribute here. Your help will be welcome ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF+zRQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UKKwCeML8Z6maHNWDK5z444jr39i7R 3xoAnRXw38/ikFFL5P/hHxBnXVuapEJW =aJ/z -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304292118320.27450@Telcontar.valinor>
On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 19:02 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince us :-)
Pardon me? I don't remember me proposing anything.
Sorry, I confuse names. This is your second post in this mail list since 2006 at least. Welcome, newcommer. Who are you, then? :-?
Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can then simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain.
In that case, you cannot wonder that there is attempt to unify current mess, when you don't tell anybody about your tool and basically nobody uses it.
Mess? :-o
Nobody? :-o
Vertaal is currently used by these openSUSE translation teams:
Italian Russian Hungarian German Czech Greek Spanish Arabic Brazilian Portuguese French Galician Portuguese Punjabi Catalan Turkish Georgian
But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own people who has to read it.
And that might actually be the reason why there is attempt to implement some tool. Nobody knows about yours, so it was assumed that there are none such in place.
We are the people doing the translations, and we know about the tools we can use. It is you, newcommer, who don't know. Ask the team translating your language, join it, and contribute :-)
I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.
Nor yours :-)
Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just complain and are overall unconstructive.
We are already here doing things. You want to come and change how we do things... the onus is on you, not us.
There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without the translator community having any thing to say or do.
As I said, nobody knew about your tool, it was assumed, that there is none.
You people did not bother to ask us first.
Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which would make everyone happy.
As said, the onus is on the people wanting to change the current system.
Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving current suboptimal situation.
But he is not a member of the translator community here.
And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or not.
I was not the only one complaining. I'm the one putting more words into it. How many posts do you here from translators saying "yeah, lets do it!"?
And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working on translations, I would have to quit.
While current situation makes many people not to start at all.
They are free to contribute...
There are languages that have only one person or two, an they use their own methods (and tools). It is a lot of work, some languages started not long ago and have much to catch up.
Some other languages may even have financial contributions...
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not.
It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community developed and implemented when they saw we needed something.
"Your" means, tool (only) your team uses. Which is correct.
Several language teams, dude.
It is not the first tool
or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one, yet. I'm just a happy user of this tool.
One of ... er ... three users?
How do you count the number of users?
So, do you mean it in a way, that it is OK if those three people block improvement for the remaining languages?
Again, how do you count the number of users?
Let me see... 11 people on the german team. 9 on the Italian. 32 on the French. 12 on the Spanish. And there are more teams.
Say again... 3 people? :-O
If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain it. Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting.
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before.
Why?
People wanting to contribute translations find the translation wiki, find the mail list, and ask to join. We guide them to the documentation they need and teach them with what they need.
For example, I looked at the general wiki, <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide>. From there I found the wiki of the French team, and there I found a link to vertaal documentation here <https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide>, in English.
It is not that difficult to find...
Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence "OK, I'm going to implement this".
Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none.
The openSUSE translator community knows about it. You don't know about it because you don't contribute here. Your help will be welcome ;-)
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlF+zRQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UKKwCeML8Z6maHNWDK5z444jr39i7R 3xoAnRXw38/ikFFL5P/hHxBnXVuapEJW =aJ/z -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi, I want to see a test of this weblate on our workflow. It will be interesting to include other thinks like the translation of zypper man pages (as we are the upstream of zypper and we only translate its interface), another use case can be the openSUSE documentation which is huge. Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 17:07 -0300, Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Hi,
I want to see a test of this weblate on our workflow.
If it does not disrupt our workflow, yes, I'm game on that. Which means that it must include methods to assign files by coordinators to people, lock, download, upload, work offline with the tool choosen by the translator (lokalize, kbabel, poedit, emacs...), etc. If it is a totally different workflow, meaning that I have to contribute strings on a webtoool online, then no.
It will be interesting to include other thinks like the translation of zypper man pages (as we are the upstream of zypper and we only translate its interface), another use case can be the openSUSE documentation which is huge.
Yes, a GUI tool to translate man pages would be nice. I have translated a few, and I don't do it more often for lack of tools. LyX would be very nice if it worked. As to documentation, some people are attempting it (the files are on vertaal). Hey, you are one of those people ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF+1vMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V14wCeMaKNKjGow5dyvcR2Yp9PZ7Uk /+8AnRs0+PzNtJBS4Xq0rVf76Ov/f6f0 =k38a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
I am going to send this message because I read several really stupid phrases, from several different persons. On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304292118320.27450@Telcontar.valinor>
On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 19:02 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince us :-)
Pardon me? I don't remember me proposing anything.
Sorry, I confuse names. This is your second post in this mail list since 2006 at least. Welcome, newcommer. Who are you, then? :-?
Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can then simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain.
In that case, you cannot wonder that there is attempt to unify current mess, when you don't tell anybody about your tool and basically nobody uses it.
Mess? :-o
Nobody? :-o
Vertaal is currently used by these openSUSE translation teams:
Italian Russian Hungarian German Czech Greek Spanish Arabic Brazilian Portuguese French Galician Portuguese Punjabi Catalan Turkish Georgian
As part of the Galician translation team I can tell that we are using Vertaal and or POAT (I can't remember) since 2008. That makes like 5 year or so. Our team is not much active, but from time to time some of us translate and manage to keep the translation level. I want to make clear that the phrase "about your tool and basically nobody uses it." includes two errors. First one is that the tool is from Gabriel, not Carlos, and IIRC it was stated at least one time in the thread. Second error is that nobody uses it, since Carlos is clearly claiming that he uses it. Even more, other people use it, and not only from Carlos team.
But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own people who has to read it.
And that might actually be the reason why there is attempt to implement some tool. Nobody knows about yours, so it was assumed that there are none such in place.
We are the people doing the translations, and we know about the tools we can use. It is you, newcommer, who don't know. Ask the team translating your language, join it, and contribute :-)
Generally the documentation for a translation team is in the language that that team is translating to. For example documentation of the Galician translation team is in Galician because it is the language our translators usually understand better. Your complains about lack of English documentation in a Translation team docs is really, really stupid.
I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.
Nor yours :-)
Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just complain and are overall unconstructive.
We are already here doing things. You want to come and change how we do things... the onus is on you, not us.
I don't recall previous conversations about changing to Weblate. I don't really follow every discussion that happens on this mailing list so it might happen. But given Carlos reacted this way I have my doubts.
There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without the translator community having any thing to say or do.
As I said, nobody knew about your tool, it was assumed, that there is none.
Don't be stupid, we knew about this tool. Other people also do. So don't say nobody.
You people did not bother to ask us first.
This comment is really stupid. They don't have to ask. Anyway it will be good for the developers to ask so this discussion could be avoided.
Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which would make everyone happy.
As said, the onus is on the people wanting to change the current system.
You (by you I mean those who are arguing in a stupid way, for example Carlos and Vít) are the ones that are not acting in a constructive way.
Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving current suboptimal situation.
Good. Can anybody provide any link to the mail where he expressed this commitment and asked for input to create the tool?
But he is not a member of the translator community here.
And what is the problem?
And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or not.
And just this discussion, or the notice of the new tool were enough to make Gabriel wanting to drop Vertaal, the tool that for years we have being using.
I was not the only one complaining. I'm the one putting more words into it. How many posts do you here from translators saying "yeah, lets do it!"?
Some. And that is no problem. Tools can be improved. Tools can be replaced by new better ones. Some people might start using this tool. I don't see a problem at all. Some others will want to keep working as they did until now.
And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working on translations, I would have to quit.
While current situation makes many people not to start at all.
You are still in the idea that Vertaal don't exist at all.
They are free to contribute...
Of course not. New people are not free to contribute. There are blockers: things to learn, hard work to do...
There are languages that have only one person or two, an they use their own methods (and tools). It is a lot of work, some languages started not long ago and have much to catch up.
Some other languages may even have financial contributions...
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not.
It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community developed and implemented when they saw we needed something.
"Your" means, tool (only) your team uses. Which is correct.
Several language teams, dude.
Carlos is right here.
It is not the first tool
or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one, yet. I'm just a happy user of this tool.
One of ... er ... three users?
How do you count the number of users?
I am asking the same question.
So, do you mean it in a way, that it is OK if those three people block improvement for the remaining languages?
Nobody is blocking. I just see comments from people asking for answers, and writing a lot of stupid comments. BTW, lets suppose you deploy Weblate, or whatever tool, does anybody think for a moment that this would make impossible for the translators to not use that tool at all and still keep translating and sending its translations?
Again, how do you count the number of users?
Let me see... 11 people on the german team. 9 on the Italian. 32 on the French. 12 on the Spanish. And there are more teams.
Say again... 3 people? :-O
If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain it. Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting.
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before.
We just tell our translators how to translate and which workflow and tools do we use. So why do we have to tell a person that perhaps we don't either know? Do we have to tell anybody? Perhaps not, but this what some teams do in their docs.
Why?
People wanting to contribute translations find the translation wiki, find the mail list, and ask to join. We guide them to the documentation they need and teach them with what they need.
For example, I looked at the general wiki, <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide>. From there I found the wiki of the French team, and there I found a link to vertaal documentation here <https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide>, in English.
It is not that difficult to find...
This last comment is really stupid. This wiki jumps can sometimes be really hard to discover.
Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence "OK, I'm going to implement this".
Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none.
You are true.
The openSUSE translator community knows about it. You don't know about it because you don't contribute here. Your help will be welcome ;-)
Also true. But a tool like this should be easier to find in order to allow new teams to join. In general this thread has a lot of stupid comments. I just read a few of the later messages, and leaving aside Gabriel and Luiz ones, the other comments just suck. I didn't tested Weblate, and probably won't test in the near future. I am really sick with the avalanche of web translation related tools that just appeared this last years: Weblate, Transifex, Pootle... So in short, Vertaal works just fine for me since 5+ years ago, so I will hate to have to change. Bye -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Sorry for the top post. I didn't read all mails, do I don't know the result. Regarding Greek team, we used Vertaal, 2 releases ago. I wrote a small tutorial in Greek http://el.opensuse.org/%CE%92%CE%BF%CE%AE%CE%B8%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%B1:Vertaal_SV... Greek translators stopped to translate the distro. I'm doing all the job right now and I upload everything using SVN. They asked me for Transifex, they wanted to translate online. I tried to set up an unofficial openSUSE translation on Transifex but failed managing it. I saw weblate during previous openSUSE conference and tried to set it up but also failed (I'm not tech guy). So right now I get notification from Vertaal everytime that a file changes, I update my SVN repo, translate it and I upload it using SVN tools. Thanks for reading. Stathis Στις 29/04/2013 11:24 μμ, ο/η Leandro Regueiro έγραψε:
I am going to send this message because I read several really stupid phrases, from several different persons.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304292118320.27450@Telcontar.valinor>
On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 19:02 +0200, Vít Pelčák wrote:
2013/4/29 Carlos E. R. <>:
Because it is you who is propossing we use a different tool and set of procedures than those we already use, so the onus is on you to convince us :-)
Pardon me? I don't remember me proposing anything.
Sorry, I confuse names. This is your second post in this mail list since 2006 at least. Welcome, newcommer. Who are you, then? :-?
Maybe you have a point that all our procedures are not documented in English, or that the English documentation is obsolete. Well, you can then simply ask us about it, and we'll try to explain.
In that case, you cannot wonder that there is attempt to unify current mess, when you don't tell anybody about your tool and basically nobody uses it.
Mess? :-o
Nobody? :-o
Vertaal is currently used by these openSUSE translation teams:
Italian Russian Hungarian German Czech Greek Spanish Arabic Brazilian Portuguese French Galician Portuguese Punjabi Catalan Turkish Georgian As part of the Galician translation team I can tell that we are using Vertaal and or POAT (I can't remember) since 2008. That makes like 5 year or so. Our team is not much active, but from time to time some of us translate and manage to keep the translation level.
I want to make clear that the phrase "about your tool and basically nobody uses it." includes two errors. First one is that the tool is from Gabriel, not Carlos, and IIRC it was stated at least one time in the thread. Second error is that nobody uses it, since Carlos is clearly claiming that he uses it. Even more, other people use it, and not only from Carlos team.
But I must say again that each team uses their own organization, and they document it (or not) in their own languages, because it is their own people who has to read it.
And that might actually be the reason why there is attempt to implement some tool. Nobody knows about yours, so it was assumed that there are none such in place.
We are the people doing the translations, and we know about the tools we can use. It is you, newcommer, who don't know. Ask the team translating your language, join it, and contribute :-) Generally the documentation for a translation team is in the language that that team is translating to. For example documentation of the Galician translation team is in Galician because it is the language our translators usually understand better. Your complains about lack of English documentation in a Translation team docs is really, really stupid.
I agree, it was not good idea to try to implement something without consulting community. Nevertheless, it is not excuse for your behaviour.
Nor yours :-)
Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just complain and are overall unconstructive.
We are already here doing things. You want to come and change how we do things... the onus is on you, not us. I don't recall previous conversations about changing to Weblate. I don't really follow every discussion that happens on this mailing list so it might happen. But given Carlos reacted this way I have my doubts.
There could still be some debate started. Something actually productive. Something what would lead to benefit of whole community. Why did you try so much to prevent it from happening? It looks pretty selfish to me, to be honest.
Because it was worded as an already made decission from above, without the translator community having any thing to say or do.
As I said, nobody knew about your tool, it was assumed, that there is none. Don't be stupid, we knew about this tool. Other people also do. So don't say nobody.
You people did not bother to ask us first. This comment is really stupid. They don't have to ask. Anyway it will be good for the developers to ask so this discussion could be avoided.
Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which would make everyone happy.
As said, the onus is on the people wanting to change the current system. You (by you I mean those who are arguing in a stupid way, for example Carlos and Vít) are the ones that are not acting in a constructive way.
Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving current suboptimal situation. Good. Can anybody provide any link to the mail where he expressed this commitment and asked for input to create the tool?
But he is not a member of the translator community here. And what is the problem?
And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or not. And just this discussion, or the notice of the new tool were enough to make Gabriel wanting to drop Vertaal, the tool that for years we have being using.
I was not the only one complaining. I'm the one putting more words into it. How many posts do you here from translators saying "yeah, lets do it!"? Some. And that is no problem. Tools can be improved. Tools can be replaced by new better ones. Some people might start using this tool. I don't see a problem at all. Some others will want to keep working as they did until now.
And, as far as I see it, the propsed method will simply stop me working on translations, I would have to quit.
While current situation makes many people not to start at all. You are still in the idea that Vertaal don't exist at all.
They are free to contribute... Of course not. New people are not free to contribute. There are blockers: things to learn, hard work to do...
There are languages that have only one person or two, an they use their own methods (and tools). It is a lot of work, some languages started not long ago and have much to catch up.
Some other languages may even have financial contributions...
/That/ is how we work.
You were defending your position by saying that your tool is documented, which it effectively is not.
It is not /my/ tool. It is a tool that members of this community developed and implemented when they saw we needed something.
"Your" means, tool (only) your team uses. Which is correct.
Several language teams, dude. Carlos is right here.
It is not the first tool
or solution we tried, but the third IIRC, and the most succesful one, yet. I'm just a happy user of this tool.
One of ... er ... three users?
How do you count the number of users? I am asking the same question.
So, do you mean it in a way, that it is OK if those three people block improvement for the remaining languages? Nobody is blocking. I just see comments from people asking for answers, and writing a lot of stupid comments.
BTW, lets suppose you deploy Weblate, or whatever tool, does anybody think for a moment that this would make impossible for the translators to not use that tool at all and still keep translating and sending its translations?
Again, how do you count the number of users?
Let me see... 11 people on the german team. 9 on the Italian. 32 on the French. 12 on the Spanish. And there are more teams.
Say again... 3 people? :-O
If you can not find out how we use it, say so and I will try to explain it. Maybe write it in some wiki iin English, time permitting.
Thing is, that you should've been more public about this tool with propper howto/wiki/whatever in place before. We just tell our translators how to translate and which workflow and tools do we use. So why do we have to tell a person that perhaps we don't either know? Do we have to tell anybody? Perhaps not, but this what some teams do in their docs.
Why?
People wanting to contribute translations find the translation wiki, find the mail list, and ask to join. We guide them to the documentation they need and teach them with what they need.
For example, I looked at the general wiki, <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide>. From there I found the wiki of the French team, and there I found a link to vertaal documentation here <https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide>, in English.
It is not that difficult to find... This last comment is really stupid. This wiki jumps can sometimes be really hard to discover.
Then it would be different storry. Nobody would come with sentence "OK, I'm going to implement this".
Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none. You are true.
The openSUSE translator community knows about it. You don't know about it because you don't contribute here. Your help will be welcome ;-) Also true. But a tool like this should be easier to find in order to allow new teams to join.
In general this thread has a lot of stupid comments. I just read a few of the later messages, and leaving aside Gabriel and Luiz ones, the other comments just suck.
I didn't tested Weblate, and probably won't test in the near future. I am really sick with the avalanche of web translation related tools that just appeared this last years: Weblate, Transifex, Pootle...
So in short, Vertaal works just fine for me since 5+ years ago, so I will hate to have to change.
Bye
-- http://about.me/iosifidis http://eiosifidis.blogspot.gr http://blogs.gnome.org/eiosifidis Great leaders don't tell you what to do... They show you how it's done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LNX.2.00.1304292247310.27450@Telcontar.valinor> On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 22:24 +0200, Leandro Regueiro wrote:
I am going to send this message because I read several really stupid phrases, from several different persons.
I think that "stupid" is too strong a word :-)
On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Sorry? I criticise and give reasons and arguments. While you just complain and are overall unconstructive.
We are already here doing things. You want to come and change how we do things... the onus is on you, not us.
I don't recall previous conversations about changing to Weblate. I don't really follow every discussion that happens on this mailing list so it might happen. But given Carlos reacted this way I have my doubts.
It is on the first post on this same thread by Tomáš Chvátal, who happens to work for SUSE. Or at least he has a suse email. And a previous thread also by him dated 2013-04-06.
You people did not bother to ask us first.
This comment is really stupid. They don't have to ask. Anyway it will be good for the developers to ask so this discussion could be avoided.
See the initial proposal. It was a proposal for changes, made by Tomáš Chvátal, without asking us first how we did things. However, if I interpret your sentence as meaning "SUSE does not have to ask us", yes I agree, they don't, and I'm probably stupid for complaining. You are not the only one telling me so, so there must be some truth in it. Others instead tell me that I'm stupid in thinking that is SUSE who is organizing this. So I must be stupid on both ends :-)
Sure, I understand, that question whether there are some problems with such decission should be asked first, nevertheless, you could choose more constructive approach to reach some compromise which would make everyone happy.
As said, the onus is on the people wanting to change the current system.
You (by you I mean those who are arguing in a stupid way, for example Carlos and Vít) are the ones that are not acting in a constructive way.
Maybe. I tried, but I'm not that good at social skills.
Anyway, Tomas is just member of community. Just like you, on the same level. He offered to dedicate his time and effort into improving current suboptimal situation.
Good. Can anybody provide any link to the mail where he expressed this commitment and asked for input to create the tool?
As far as I understood, he did not ask for input, which is why I reacted. <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2013-04/msg00000.html> <http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2013-04/msg00009.html>
But he is not a member of the translator community here.
And what is the problem?
Well, that he doesn't know our workflow, our needs, our wants. It is an outsider changing things...
And in case you haven't noticed, just your complaints were enough to stop that effort. So, apparently, it was not decission from above as it would otherwise be forced down our throats whether we like it or not.
And just this discussion, or the notice of the new tool were enough to make Gabriel wanting to drop Vertaal, the tool that for years we have being using.
Yes :-(
I was not the only one complaining. I'm the one putting more words into it. How many posts do you here from translators saying "yeah, lets do it!"?
Some. And that is no problem. Tools can be improved. Tools can be replaced by new better ones. Some people might start using this tool. I don't see a problem at all. Some others will want to keep working as they did until now.
If the proposal is changed in a manner that people can work in their "traditional" way or in the new ways, sure, no problem. Replace one with the other, then we risk loosing people.
They are free to contribute...
Of course not. New people are not free to contribute. There are blockers: things to learn, hard work to do...
Well, of course. For example, if you try joining the Spanish KDE translation team, you may even have to pass an exam. There was talk of that, I don't know if they implemented it. They certainly are strict on quality.
For example, I looked at the general wiki, <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide>. From there I found the wiki of the French team, and there I found a link to vertaal documentation here <https://github.com/dahool/vertaal/wiki/User-Guide>, in English.
It is not that difficult to find...
This last comment is really stupid. This wiki jumps can sometimes be really hard to discover.
Well, I agree that searching the openSUSE wiki is not easy, it fails a lot to produce results. But that is not my fault, nor yours. But it took me about 3 minutes to find it.
Just compare accessibility of your tool with Weblate. Google returns its webpage just in first entry found. While for your tool, it was not so much. Then you cannot wonder that basically nobody knows your tool and assumes there's none.
You are true.
The openSUSE translator community knows about it. You don't know about it because you don't contribute here. Your help will be welcome ;-)
Also true. But a tool like this should be easier to find in order to allow new teams to join.
Well, Gabriel explained why. Robot searches are disabled, so no google.
I didn't tested Weblate, and probably won't test in the near future. I am really sick with the avalanche of web translation related tools that just appeared this last years: Weblate, Transifex, Pootle...
I had a look and watched a video. It has interesting features. But the demonstration showed translations being done directly on the tool, online, string by string (recording credit for each string to its translator). This is something I will not do, and I'm just being sincere. No disrespect, but that is not for me. If I can not work in a similar way to what I do now, using lokalize offline to translate the same file year after year, when possible, then I'm out. But maybe I'm wrong and the new method will attract more contributors. Or maybe I'm right and it will lower quality. I did not see features equivalent to the organization we manage with vertaal, so it is a switch over.
So in short, Vertaal works just fine for me since 5+ years ago, so I will hate to have to change.
Right. I'm not blocking anything. This is a community, and the community decides, I hope. I'm just saying that I will not work that way, and explaining why. I read that webyast is switching over to weblate, so we'll see in time... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF+5TIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U2IgCfQkvy2N/KUvvBo1DydifOMZ4k cjsAn1syMTKbI5h1ZcHTBkyn4j+vu/36 =7omT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 23:24:56 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
I tried, but I'm not that good at social skills.
Hmm ... not sure about that :) Some days, yes, most of them not, or in other words, does that mean that we have all this discussion just because you had a bad day with something like systemd, which is a real imposition for all of us oldtimers that have to throw away hard work we did in the past and start learning, almost, from scratch? I'm sorry that I did not jump in earlier in attempt to cool down the argument, but I'm not active translator informed how translation works. Even now, I'm looking at servers and asking myself what is next to do if I want to translate some application UI strings. There is few places where to look, and nothing looks uniform and easy to explain. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide is obviously outdated. If you are in the mood to help, we can go trough process, documenting it for new translators, so I can establish base for Croatian as well another two very similar languages (Serbian and Bosnian) and at the same time have at least one process documented in English, as a base for improvements. As all those languages had some translations, that I can't find anymore I can run in the same situation as Russian teams, but I hope that we can straighten this later. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-29 at 20:12 -0500, Rajko wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 23:24:56 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
I tried, but I'm not that good at social skills.
Hmm ... not sure about that :) Some days, yes, most of them not, or in other words, does that mean that we have all this discussion just because you had a bad day with something like systemd, which is a real imposition for all of us oldtimers that have to throw away hard work we did in the past and start learning, almost, from scratch?
The thing is, that this I at least feel this like an imposition from above, but one with which I would have to use to keep contributing; as I don't like it, I can stop contributing. Systemd I also feel as an imposition, but there I'm just a user and have no say at all.
I'm sorry that I did not jump in earlier in attempt to cool down the argument, but I'm not active translator informed how translation works. Even now, I'm looking at servers and asking myself what is next to do if I want to translate some application UI strings. There is few places where to look, and nothing looks uniform and easy to explain.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_guide is obviously outdated.
Yes, it is outdated. However, it happens that each team is organized differently and they write their own documentation. It is just a fact. - From the wiki above, you can find a reference to a mailing list, a suggestion to join a language team, and a link to the list of teams. When the team does not exist, contributors drop by the mail list and ask what they can do. <https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Localization_team> You can have a look from here to the page of a team. For example, if you click on the Spanish link, you will see that (even if you can not read Spanish) the documentation offered is extensive, several long pages (and some of it also obsolete, I'm afraid). The French team also has their own page, quite long. Several pages, actually. The Galician team has a page that is not hosted at opensuse.org. The German team has their page on the wiki, too. Some teams do not have a team page. Etc. And many of the teams have their own mail lists - and I know for a fact that not every translator reads this list we are at now. The pages of each team are not only written in their own languages; but the contents are also different. And they are different for many reasons: how many wiki writers they have, how up to date they keep it, but most important for this thread, that they often are organized differently. Thus it is very difficult to write an English documentation page because nobody knows how every team is organized... The English documentation got us all started, years ago. Then we each went our own ways. For example, there are large teams and small teams (1 or 2 members). A small team does not need an organization tool, they can just do it.
If you are in the mood to help, we can go trough process, documenting it for new translators, so I can establish base for Croatian as well another two very similar languages (Serbian and Bosnian) and at the same time have at least one process documented in English, as a base for improvements.
As all those languages had some translations, that I can't find anymore I can run in the same situation as Russian teams, but I hope that we can straighten this later.
I can try to update or improve parts of the English documentation, time permitting, but I have to guide myself on the Spanish team, obviously (and If I have to duplicate all the Spanish pages, they are a lot). Others can perhaps contribute their different procedures. But I have to confess that I don't feel much incentive to do it. I don't know if it will be of any use at all because the entire procedure is going to be changed, so why document something that will no longer exist? (somebody from SUSE asked very recently for a "hangout" to explain our procedures to some visiting teachers at Nuremberg, and I had to refuse, for the same reasons basically). Also, there is a side of the organization which is unknown to me, namely what happens beyond. Ie, how the developers submit the files to be translated, and how they get them back. This is something that Karl does, with probably insufficient help. There are a lot of scripts and procedures to do those things, mostly undocumented. For instance, this release webyast has not been translated at all, simply because their developers did not provide us with the strings to translate. This has happened on previous releases, there are Bugzillas on that. This time I refused to write again another Bugzilla, and I believe nobody else did. So, no translation for webyast. It has been later removed from our tree. And believe me, I'm hurt with this situation. I have translated the whole of webyast to Spanish since they started, and I feel frustrated that I could not translate the current 12.3 release :-( (It is my understanding that they are going to use weblate from now on. I hope them success. Really.) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF/O7oACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X0ZwCeMPWU37dwdVs+DKE8fKokSNDJ w90AmgK2U0FmrLwR+lapCmA4ySX/rxfq =Fm+U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
su. den 21. 04. 2013 klokka 22.09 (+0200) skreiv Michal Hrusecky:
Which is why Weblate could actually help. It will lower the initial barrier to let people translate just few things they care about and translation team could just approve it.
Just a small comment: This is a really bad idea. Experience has time and time again shown that this type of ‘drive-by translation’ (as done in Ubuntu’s Rosetta/Launchpad) does much more harm than good. The translations are usually done by people that don’t know the linguistic guidelines of the translation team, haven’t translated the rest of the application, and thus can’t ensure a consistent translation, and, frankly, often don’t have the linguistic capabilities or technical knowhow to do good translations (yes, of course there are exceptions). In my experience handling translation suggestions in Launchpad, I will spend much more time reading a suggestion and fixing/rewriting it than I would translating the source string directly. I guess suggestions *would* be useful for pointing out mistakes / possible improvements in existing translations (and this is something that is needed, as we really don’t have a good infrastructure for it), it is *not* useful for ‘drive-by translation’. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer http://huftis.org/ Jabber: karl@huftis.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 07:44 +0200, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
su. den 21. 04. 2013 klokka 22.09 (+0200) skreiv Michal Hrusecky:
Which is why Weblate could actually help. It will lower the initial barrier to let people translate just few things they care about and translation team could just approve it.
Just a small comment: This is a really bad idea. Experience has time and time again shown that this type of ‘drive-by translation’ (as done in Ubuntu’s Rosetta/Launchpad) does much more harm than good. The translations are usually done by people that don’t know the linguistic guidelines of the translation team, haven’t translated the rest of the application, and thus can’t ensure a consistent translation, and, frankly, often don’t have the linguistic capabilities or technical knowhow to do good translations (yes, of course there are exceptions).
Absolutely. And many teams do not need this type of collaboration, as the are 100% fully translated currently. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF1FlgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UwQACeJlMN6Kw72DSqZU/dZ7MGcznu xEkAnjuYftqC4+/potEUPH3Nz0OTXzqU =VW64 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Carlos E. R. - 12:51 22.04.13 wrote:
On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 07:44 +0200, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
su. den 21. 04. 2013 klokka 22.09 (+0200) skreiv Michal Hrusecky:
Which is why Weblate could actually help. It will lower the initial barrier to let people translate just few things they care about and translation team could just approve it.
Just a small comment: This is a really bad idea. Experience has time and time again shown that this type of ‘drive-by translation’ (as done in Ubuntu’s Rosetta/Launchpad) does much more harm than good. The translations are usually done by people that don’t know the linguistic guidelines of the translation team, haven’t translated the rest of the application, and thus can’t ensure a consistent translation, and, frankly, often don’t have the linguistic capabilities or technical knowhow to do good translations (yes, of course there are exceptions).
Absolutely.
And many teams do not need this type of collaboration, as the are 100% fully translated currently.
What about merging translations fixes in multiple branches? Upstream vs factory vs released openSUSE, the other issue Tomas was trying to address... ;-) -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
2013/4/22 Michal Hrusecky <michal@hrusecky.net>:
Carlos E. R. - 12:51 22.04.13 wrote:
And many teams do not need this type of collaboration, as the are 100% fully translated currently.
What about merging translations fixes in multiple branches? Upstream vs factory vs released openSUSE, the other issue Tomas was trying to address... ;-)
Until now, factory translations are never merged back with branches: they remain unchanged unless there is some bug to fix. But this is solved by translating the new strings, not taking the strings from factory, where they may be untranslated, different or missing. Regarding upstream, everything depends on the choice of the single language team in order to preserve the style of the openSUSE translations. Best, Andrea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 13:12 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
And many teams do not need this type of collaboration, as the are 100% fully translated currently.
What about merging translations fixes in multiple branches? Upstream vs factory vs released openSUSE, the other issue Tomas was trying to address... ;-)
We are upstream. We only translate the tools for which openSUSE is upstream, like yast. Nothing else. All releases are translated, factory is not. I will not waste time translating factory till string freeze phase. Fixing a released version translation needs an official update, and that takes some big moving. I can translate the strings in no time, but they will not get to the users unless it is something _really_ important. It needs permission from way above (Kulow?) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF1IooACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UctgCff20+zily4tQQMCipXontvOeL bqwAn17bFZ2zIgKAdDVDHCwhaPjH5Pnr =DwLw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
"Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> writes:
Fixing a released version translation needs an official update, and that takes some big moving. I can translate the strings in no time, but they will not get to the users unless it is something _really_ important. It needs permission from way above (Kulow?)
coolo and (more important) the maintenance group mostly accepts all the proposed translation updates. And yes, this means someone must package the improved translation soemhow. I usually do this if there is a bug entry and it is something important. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Karl Ove Hufthammer - 7:44 22.04.13 wrote:
su. den 21. 04. 2013 klokka 22.09 (+0200) skreiv Michal Hrusecky:
Which is why Weblate could actually help. It will lower the initial barrier to let people translate just few things they care about and translation team could just approve it.
Just a small comment: This is a really bad idea. Experience has time and time again shown that this type of ‘drive-by translation’ (as done in Ubuntu’s Rosetta/Launchpad) does much more harm than good. The translations are usually done by people that don’t know the linguistic guidelines of the translation team, haven’t translated the rest of the application, and thus can’t ensure a consistent translation, and, frankly, often don’t have the linguistic capabilities or technical knowhow to do good translations (yes, of course there are exceptions).
This might work if you have more than enough volunteers and you can pick highly trained guys. If you don't have enough good enough people, it's quite some help having suggestions (even random volunteers do good translations sometimes) and fixing just few inconsistencies. It's just faster.
In my experience handling translation suggestions in Launchpad, I will spend much more time reading a suggestion and fixing/rewriting it than I would translating the source string directly.
Simple, if you don't like it, ignore it and replace it with your own. If you like it, just accept it. I don't see how it can take more time... Unless you are forced to use web UI instead of your off-line tool of preference which nobody is suggesting.
I guess suggestions *would* be useful for pointing out mistakes / possible improvements in existing translations (and this is something that is needed, as we really don’t have a good infrastructure for it), it is *not* useful for ‘drive-by translation’.
-- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-04-22 at 13:10 +0200, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Karl Ove Hufthammer - 7:44 22.04.13 wrote:
In my experience handling translation suggestions in Launchpad, I will spend much more time reading a suggestion and fixing/rewriting it than I would translating the source string directly.
Simple, if you don't like it, ignore it and replace it with your own. If you like it, just accept it. I don't see how it can take more time... Unless you are forced to use web UI instead of your off-line tool of preference which nobody is suggesting.
It really takes long time to verify translations if you want to do it right. You have to read it carefully and consider. If you do it fast you can skip a word mistake that you'd simply would not make if translating yourself. If you know that the person that made the translation is good you can go fast. Otherwise... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlF1I/AACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UG/ACfQL+gDRyd56cuU9ysQpCUksPY lTsAnAvBvOV5ZFNBElY9vzfFyRhWkW/j =YLBo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Karl Ove Hufthammer - 15:54 21.04.13 wrote:
må. den 15. 04. 2013 klokka 14.00 (+0200) skreiv Tomáš Chvátal:
I don't expect other to change the workflow thus the app is supposed to be optional, you can use the interface, you can use the merge-branch feature, you can use reviews, but all of these are optional, in the end you just have to check out the git or download the pofile and do whatever you feel like with it.
I’m not sure I understand correctly. Will we be able to do just do a
git pull [to fetch *all* the .po files] ... do the translation using Lokalize and other tools ... git commit
?
Yes
That sounds like a good solution. I will not use a Web-based translation system, for various reasons (e.g., we use several tools and scripts to ensure quality translations, and all Web-based solutions I have tried have turned out to be slow, inefficient and detrimental to good quality translations).
BTW, I don’t really understand why the translation files for openSUSE are often outdated, and the need to move to Git. In KDE, which I also translate for, most applications have moved to Git, but the translations stay in SVN (Git gives us no advantages over SVN, and would only complicate the lives of translators). And the translations templates stay in a central directory
http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/l10n-kde4/templates/messages/
and are *automatically* updated *every day* (if the source code is changed, of course). The same is true for the translation files (.po files); they are merged with the template files each day. So there are never any outdated POT or PO files.
For handling various branches of applications, some teams (including ours) use the very powerful Summit framework:
http://pology.nedohodnik.net/doc/user/en_US/ch-summit.html
(I cannot emphasise enough how powerful this framework is. For example, it can keep track of translations across branches where a PO file has been moved, removed, renamed, split into several files (e.g. into where one application has been split into application + library), or merged with other files into a new file.)
Tomas was trying for a long time to get pology working for openSUSE translations exactly for these reasons. Unfortunately it turned out to be too closely tighted to KDE workflow/infrastructure/whatnot (don't remeber the details). So he was looking for other solutions with similar features and ended up with weblate. Easy merging of translations across multiple branches and anybody can propose a translation and when translation team approves it, credits will belong to who contributed (git workflow). -- Michal Hrusecky <Michal@Hrusecky.net> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-translation+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-translation+owner@opensuse.org
Dne St 10. dubna 2013 10:24:44, Tomáš Chvátal napsal(a): List of stuff that should not be in the svn: (i will use cs as sampler please ignore the cs string in the names) zypp.cs.po zypper.cs.po kiwi.cs.po snapper.cs.po Not relevant by SUSE branch and we should keep it with the source. Even now it is stored in tarball or unpacked in their git repo. Where it needs to be adjusted I will open pull requests. pam_krb5.cs.po This files should be given up upstream because currently they don't have those in git and there is no reason for us to keep them on our side. lxcc.cs.po Why do we have config for lxde translated here? They have their own translation system and lxde is not even main supported de by installer kde/gnome. kio_sysinfo.cs.po This thing AFAIK was obsoleted by kinfocenter. Rest of the apparmor/gnomish stuff should be merged with respective gnome teams as reported by the tool from Stanislav. simple-ccss-kde.cs.po Config tool for compiz should be translated on compiz side i would say :-) scout/command-not-found http://gitorious.org/opensuse/scout/trees/master The translations are stored in the git already and not updated. So we should move those there and move whole scout to opensuse on github and be done with it. webpages (software/...) Those should be in separate tree as they are irelevant for branching, but it does not matter that much for now so lets ignore that. I think after migrating at least the tools to their respective git repos we will have reasonable subset of translations that can be managed by weblate so we can then deploy the example implementation so you guys can play with it and open bugs/requests. Cheers Tom
participants (15)
-
Andrea Turrini -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Gabriel [SGT] -
Karl Eichwalder -
Karl Ove Hufthammer -
Leandro Regueiro -
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti -
Michael Skiba -
Michal Hrusecky -
Rajko -
Stanislav Brabec -
Stathis Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) -
Tomáš Chvátal -
Vít Pelčák