opensuse.org frontpage lift-up/redesign
I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but where is the marketing side and the Novell/SuSE knowledge involved? OpenSuSE has important goals and at the moment the frontpage it THE portal to openSuSE. Current subject acknowledges there is demand to improve the frontpage (or even the site) to better match the goals. Since Novell supports the project and it is in both OpenSuSE and Novells interest to make the project succesfull by using all resources provided. So far I have only read vague plans to start the lift-up / redesign and mainly targeted to hope to get some ideas/help from the starting community. This sounds nice if the project was started by the community from ground up, but this is OpenSuSE. We already have a large user/knowledge base from the corporate years besides the fresh open community. The SuSE website was very good for years, build to attract. Novell/SuSE adapted the concepts and there it is still strong. Novell and SuSE have done a good job so far to make (open)SuSE attractive by use of their very well designed websites and their marketing knowlegde. It is not hard to imagine why there is demand for a lift-up/redesign with this in mind with the current wiki look-and-feel and where to get some solid startup help for this? Maybe this sounds not-done from community perspective to make it really a community project, but OpenSuSE needs a good and solid start with help from both sides. Greg Mancusi-Ungaro should be available for the marketing perspective for the lift-up and there must be some talented Novell/SuSE design staff. Tim ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 01:58:16AM +0000, q uestion wrote:
I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but where is the marketing side and the Novell/SuSE knowledge involved? OpenSuSE has important goals and at the moment the frontpage it THE portal to openSuSE. Current subject acknowledges there is demand to improve the frontpage (or even the site) to better match the goals.
Well, obviously openSUSE.org is _the_ portal for openSUSE.org. openSUSE is the comunity, so as a comunity it is up to US, members of the comunity to make that site. Making a comunity and a comunity site that goes with it is not something that will be done in a matter of days or perhaps even weeks. It will take some time, sorry. I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
--- houghi <houghi@houghi.org> wrote:
Well, obviously openSUSE.org is _the_ portal for openSUSE.org. openSUSE is the comunity, so as a comunity it is up to US, members of the comunity to make that site.
This is exactly what I was afraid of: black/white thinking. We don't have Novell staff support to just ignore it and hope the community can make OpenSuSE solid in a few years. OpenSuSE is still in infant state and needs all the support it can get. It is not a shame to get the help from Novell in community style.
Making a comunity and a comunity site that goes with it is not something that will be done in a matter of days or perhaps even weeks. It will take some time, sorry.
That is no excuse for ignoring where OpenSuSE comes from and the support offerd exactly for the startup period. Novell/SuSE knows OpenSuSE is for the community, they invented the project and support it! Using the offered help and knowledge will for sure help to meet the goals, that is why it is offerd. Using this help may not feel like OpenSuSE is fully community, but ignoring it is gambling with OpenSuSE, the community and the goals.
I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity.
Using help from Novell does not make OpenSuSE a direct marketingtool, even if the help is more then just guiding. Not only because OpenSuSE is a community thus the community decides what will be acceptable, but also because Novell depends on OpenSuSE to work in community form. Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
On Friday 24 February 2006 11:37, q uestion wrote:
--- houghi <houghi@houghi.org> wrote:
Well, obviously openSUSE.org is _the_ portal for openSUSE.org. openSUSE is the comunity, so as a comunity it is up to US, members of the comunity to make that site.
This is exactly what I was afraid of: black/white thinking. We don't have Novell staff support to just ignore it and hope the community can make OpenSuSE solid in a few years. OpenSuSE is still in infant state and needs all the support it can get. It is not a shame to get the help from Novell in community style.
I think you're missing something... the community doesn't just include the users, but developers at Novell as well. Its a joint effort. Not community + Novell, but that people at Novell are a part of this community. A very important, and involved, part.
Making a comunity and a comunity site that goes with it is not something that will be done in a matter of days or perhaps even weeks. It will take some time, sorry.
That is no excuse for ignoring where OpenSuSE comes from and the support offerd exactly for the startup period. Novell/SuSE knows OpenSuSE is for the community, they invented the project and support it! Using the offered help and knowledge will for sure help to meet the goals, that is why it is offerd. Using this help may not feel like OpenSuSE is fully community, but ignoring it is gambling with OpenSuSE, the community and the goals.
What houghi is saying is that you don't put something out there and instantly get a community, a community is something that starts small-ish, and grows. I'd say that I'm very impressed with the current status of the community and its growth.
I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity.
Using help from Novell does not make OpenSuSE a direct marketingtool, even if the help is more then just guiding. Not only because OpenSuSE is a community thus the community decides what will be acceptable, but also because Novell depends on OpenSuSE to work in community form.
Read above comment on Novell employees being part of the community.
Tim
Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:58:51AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Read above comment on Novell employees being part of the community.
Thanks for clearifying this. The way the OP wrote it, it sounded as Novell is obliged or that the users can demand something from Novell to do about the website. I don't think we can demand anything. We can politely ask and if they help, this would be very nice of them to do so. Somebody else wrote a sort while a go a real good explanation about Novell being a part of the (kernel-)comunity. I just can't find it. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
On Friday 24 February 2006 12:09, houghi wrote:
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:58:51AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
Read above comment on Novell employees being part of the community.
Thanks for clearifying this. The way the OP wrote it, it sounded as Novell is obliged or that the users can demand something from Novell to do about the website.
I don't think we can demand anything. We can politely ask and if they help, this would be very nice of them to do so.
Somebody else wrote a sort while a go a real good explanation about Novell being a part of the (kernel-)comunity. I just can't find it.
houghi
Thats how I took it too (from the OP) - though considering the efforts of Andreas, Sonja, Henne, etc, etc - how could we not consider them an important part of the community? Not only do they contribute as their job demands, but, imho, they all have gone above and beyond is support of OpenSUSE as a community effort. Should Novell have assistance available? Sure, but I believe by providing the framework, they have done just that. They have also worked with vendors to assure compatibility, apply pressure on software companies to make Linux an easier transition, and now have even started a podcast. I'd say they damn well do plenty, and I appreciate that :) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 12:15:44PM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
I'd say they damn well do plenty, and I appreciate that :)
Hear, hear. As it is very silent from them I asume they are on their way to Brussels. I hope they survive the Belgian Beers this evening. :-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:
I'd say they damn well do plenty, and I appreciate that :)
may be this is not visible enough, that is why I added a paragraph there: http://en.opensuse.org/Teams (from an other mail found on this list) :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
--- "Joseph M. Gaffney" <CuCullin@wtfisthat.net> wrote:
Thats how I took it too (from the OP) - though considering the efforts of Andreas, Sonja, Henne, etc, etc - how could we not consider them an important part of the community?
Not only do they contribute as their job demands, but, imho, they all have gone above and beyond is support of OpenSUSE as a community effort. Should Novell have assistance available? Sure, but I believe by providing the framework, they have done just that. They have also worked with vendors to assure compatibility, apply pressure on software companies to make Linux an easier transition, and now have even started a podcast.
I'd say they damn well do plenty, and I appreciate that :)
I think we all highly appreciate the work of those Novell/SuSE people who do more for OpenSuSE then assigned. But it does not harm to ask those assigned Novell/SuSE people we do not hear of see to help the community to help lift-up/redesign the frontpage. Tim. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
houghi wrote:
I don't think we can demand anything. We can politely ask and if they help, this would be very nice of them to do so.
sure. there is however a little fog, nobody knows exactly who is the site admin(s) and whe send questions or comments. question can be posted via the wiki (but who read the discussion pages and when?), here, but it can pass unseen, on bugzilla, but I've had two answers: see elsewhere... in short, it should be nice to have a name for all the tasks that the non Novell part of the community can't do: * who is practically in charge of the wiki server? * who is practically in charge of the mailing lists? * who is responsible... (IRC, forum, etc.) and it's _not_ to flame him, but to be more efficient thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
--- houghi <houghi@houghi.org> wrote:
Thanks for clearifying this. The way the OP wrote it, it sounded as Novell is obliged or that the users > can demand something from Novell to do about the website.
I don't think we can demand anything. We can politely ask and if they help, this would be very nice of them to do so.
Yes and no. From the community perspective we must ask them and nog demand them. Otherwise the meaning of community is worthless. On the other hand: Novell assigned staff to support the community and they can held accountable from Novells perspective doing so. Thus we can held Novell accountable for faking some forms of support, like marketing, if those assigned people do not openly help. But I don't want a war, I just want to try getting as much offered people helping on the frontpage lift-up/redesign. Does anybody here knows how to reach Greg Mancusi-Ungaro (marketing), Sonja Krause-Harder (evangelist), any former SuSE frontpage/web designers?!?! The first are even Core Team members! Considering the portal part of OpenSuSEs core, where are they? Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
On Friday 24 February 2006 20:50, q uestion wrote:
Does anybody here knows how to reach Greg Mancusi-Ungaro (marketing), Sonja Krause-Harder (evangelist), any former SuSE frontpage/web designers?!?! The first are even Core Team members! Considering the portal part of OpenSuSEs core, where are they?
Right now? Probably at FOSDEM. Between the 10.1 betas and FOSDEM its a pretty buys few weeks for all of them :) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
--- "Joseph M. Gaffney" <CuCullin@wtfisthat.net> wrote:
Right now? Probably at FOSDEM. Between the 10.1 betas and FOSDEM its a pretty buys few weeks for all of them :)
The attempt to involve assigned marketing staff and (former) webdesigners couldnt have better timing I guess. Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
--- "Joseph M. Gaffney" <CuCullin@wtfisthat.net> wrote:
I think you're missing something... the community doesn't just include the users, but developers at Novell as well. Its a joint effort. Not community + Novell, but that people at Novell are a part of this community. A very important, and involved, part.
I do understand this. That is exactly why I suggest to involve as many of those Novell people assigned to help OpenSuSE. I am not talking about those great Novell/SuSE people already visible in the community, but also the less/not visible people from marketing and webdesign. Not everybody is used to help community style. That is also why I started by telling I don't know whats happening behind the scenes.
What houghi is saying is that you don't put something out there and instantly get a community, a community is something that starts small-ish, and grows.
Dont forget this community was already here. It was formed virtually in many forms by many SuSE users helping eachother and SuSE. The start of OpenSuSE did not create a new community but gives shape to this old virtual community. The power comes from the history of SuSE: once company. now still transforming as company-community style. This is why I raise the question to get those Novell people who are now assigned but not visible get involved: the distributions are already one of the best in the world, but not pulling all the strings to get the OpenSuSE community portal roling will damage this. I am afraid the community does not provide enough active resources to match the size of the distribution. Not enough to reach the goals. This can have a huge impact on the distribution and so on the community, OpenSuSE. Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 01:31:15AM +0000, q uestion wrote:
What houghi is saying is that you don't put something out there and instantly get a community, a community is something that starts small-ish, and grows.
Dont forget this community was already here.
No, it was not. There was a SUSE community. This is an openSUSE community.
It was formed virtually in many forms by many SuSE users helping eachother and SuSE. The start of OpenSuSE did not create a new community but gives shape to this old virtual community.
I see it differently. Although much overlapping, to me it is a new comunity. Completely different goals as a comunity. It is as if you go from a helpdesk that answers only technical questions to a customer contact center that looks after everything. the openSUSE community includes the existing community. It is however so much larger and different that I personaly see it as a complete new community. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Hi! Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2006 03:22 schrieb houghi:
I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity.
So why are there so many >30 new categories created at the moment? At least on the German wiki. Shall we wait, or start working. There seems to be no organisation of the work at all! http://de.opensuse.org/Spezial:Recentchanges There are a lot of people who want to work on opensuse.org and some just start and others wait, so there has to be some quick action to channel that, otherwise it will lead to chaos in terms of the generated sites and frustation, because of having to wait for so long just to get started. Especially since opensuse exists for quite some time now, so the issues should have been resolved already. Sven
On Friday 24 February 2006 15:01, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Hi!
Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2006 03:22 schrieb houghi:
I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity.
So why are there so many >30 new categories created at the moment? At least on the German wiki. Shall we wait, or start working. There seems to be no organisation of the work at all!
http://de.opensuse.org/Spezial:Recentchanges
There are a lot of people who want to work on opensuse.org and some just start and others wait, so there has to be some quick action to channel that, otherwise it will lead to chaos in terms of the generated sites and frustation, because of having to wait for so long just to get started. Especially since opensuse exists for quite some time now, so the issues should have been resolved already.
Sven
What do the redesign of the front page, and starting work on articles have to do with each other? Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
Hi! Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2006 21:17 schrieb Joseph M. Gaffney:
What do the redesign of the front page, and starting work on articles have to do with each other?
Nothing, but creating articles, especially categories creates a structure which becomes "spam", if not used in the end. What they have in common is, that there needs to be a decision in order for the wiki to be well structured as well as content-rich. Sven
On Friday 24 February 2006 15:27, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Hi!
Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2006 21:17 schrieb Joseph M. Gaffney:
What do the redesign of the front page, and starting work on articles have to do with each other?
Nothing, but creating articles, especially categories creates a structure which becomes "spam", if not used in the end. What they have in common is, that there needs to be a decision in order for the wiki to be well structured as well as content-rich.
Sven
Not really. The dynamic nature of the wiki allows it to be restructured at will. Categories can be named and renamed at will, references found, replacements quickly made. And the thing is, the front page redesign is intended to have more of an initial impact, it doesn't (afaik) have anything to do with any restructuring. Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin
participants (5)
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jdd -
Joseph M. Gaffney -
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Sven Burmeister