On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 01:58:16AM +0000, q uestion wrote:

I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but where is the marketing side and the Novell/SuSE knowledge involved? OpenSuSE has important goals and at the moment the frontpage it THE portal to openSuSE. Current subject acknowledges there is demand to improve the frontpage (or even the site) to better match the goals.

Well, obviously openSUSE.org is _the_ portal for openSUSE.org. openSUSE is the comunity, so as a comunity it is up to US, members of the comunity to make that site. Making a comunity and a comunity site that goes with it is not something that will be done in a matter of days or perhaps even weeks. It will take some time, sorry. I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Friday 24 February 2006 11:37, q uestion wrote:

--- houghi wrote:

...

Well, obviously openSUSE.org is _the_ portal for openSUSE.org. openSUSE is the comunity, so as a comunity it is up to US, members of the comunity to make that site.

This is exactly what I was afraid of: black/white thinking. We don't have Novell staff support to just ignore it and hope the community can make OpenSuSE solid in a few years. OpenSuSE is still in infant state and needs all the support it can get. It is not a shame to get the help from Novell in community style.

I think you're missing something... the community doesn't just include the users, but developers at Novell as well. Its a joint effort. Not community + Novell, but that people at Novell are a part of this community. A very important, and involved, part.

...

Making a comunity and a comunity site that goes with it is not something that will be done in a matter of days or perhaps even weeks. It will take some time, sorry.

That is no excuse for ignoring where OpenSuSE comes from and the support offerd exactly for the startup period. Novell/SuSE knows OpenSuSE is for the community, they invented the project and support it! Using the offered help and knowledge will for sure help to meet the goals, that is why it is offerd. Using this help may not feel like OpenSuSE is fully community, but ignoring it is gambling with OpenSuSE, the community and the goals.

What houghi is saying is that you don't put something out there and instantly get a community, a community is something that starts small-ish, and grows. I'd say that I'm very impressed with the current status of the community and its growth.

...

I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity.

Using help from Novell does not make OpenSuSE a direct marketingtool, even if the help is more then just guiding. Not only because OpenSuSE is a community thus the community decides what will be acceptable, but also because Novell depends on OpenSuSE to work in community form.

Read above comment on Novell employees being part of the community.

Tim

Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin

On Friday 24 February 2006 12:09, houghi wrote:

On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 11:58:51AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

...

Read above comment on Novell employees being part of the community.

Thanks for clearifying this. The way the OP wrote it, it sounded as Novell is obliged or that the users can demand something from Novell to do about the website.

I don't think we can demand anything. We can politely ask and if they help, this would be very nice of them to do so.

Somebody else wrote a sort while a go a real good explanation about Novell being a part of the (kernel-)comunity. I just can't find it.

houghi

Thats how I took it too (from the OP) - though considering the efforts of Andreas, Sonja, Henne, etc, etc - how could we not consider them an important part of the community? Not only do they contribute as their job demands, but, imho, they all have gone above and beyond is support of OpenSUSE as a community effort. Should Novell have assistance available? Sure, but I believe by providing the framework, they have done just that. They have also worked with vendors to assure compatibility, apply pressure on software companies to make Linux an easier transition, and now have even started a podcast. I'd say they damn well do plenty, and I appreciate that :) Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin

houghi wrote:

I don't think we can demand anything. We can politely ask and if they help, this would be very nice of them to do so.

sure. there is however a little fog, nobody knows exactly who is the site admin(s) and whe send questions or comments. question can be posted via the wiki (but who read the discussion pages and when?), here, but it can pass unseen, on bugzilla, but I've had two answers: see elsewhere... in short, it should be nice to have a name for all the tasks that the non Novell part of the community can't do: * who is practically in charge of the wiki server? * who is practically in charge of the mailing lists? * who is responsible... (IRC, forum, etc.) and it's _not_ to flame him, but to be more efficient thanks jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Hi! Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2006 03:22 schrieb houghi:

I asume that discussion will begin somewhere after FOSDEM. It will hopefully be a discussion and a process where the Novell marketing people have at most a guiding role. The site is NOT a marketingtool for Novell (at least not directly) it is a place for the openSUSE comunity.

So why are there so many >30 new categories created at the moment? At least on the German wiki. Shall we wait, or start working. There seems to be no organisation of the work at all! http://de.opensuse.org/Spezial:Recentchanges There are a lot of people who want to work on opensuse.org and some just start and others wait, so there has to be some quick action to channel that, otherwise it will lead to chaos in terms of the generated sites and frustation, because of having to wait for so long just to get started. Especially since opensuse exists for quite some time now, so the issues should have been resolved already. Sven

Hi! Am Freitag, 24. Februar 2006 21:17 schrieb Joseph M. Gaffney:

What do the redesign of the front page, and starting work on articles have to do with each other?

Nothing, but creating articles, especially categories creates a structure which becomes "spam", if not used in the end. What they have in common is, that there needs to be a decision in order for the wiki to be well structured as well as content-rich. Sven

--- "Joseph M. Gaffney" wrote:

I think you're missing something... the community doesn't just include the users, but developers at Novell as well. Its a joint effort. Not community + Novell, but that people at Novell are a part of this community. A very important, and involved, part.

I do understand this. That is exactly why I suggest to involve as many of those Novell people assigned to help OpenSuSE. I am not talking about those great Novell/SuSE people already visible in the community, but also the less/not visible people from marketing and webdesign. Not everybody is used to help community style. That is also why I started by telling I don't know whats happening behind the scenes.

What houghi is saying is that you don't put something out there and instantly get a community, a community is something that starts small-ish, and grows.

Dont forget this community was already here. It was formed virtually in many forms by many SuSE users helping eachother and SuSE. The start of OpenSuSE did not create a new community but gives shape to this old virtual community. The power comes from the history of SuSE: once company. now still transforming as company-community style. This is why I raise the question to get those Novell people who are now assigned but not visible get involved: the distributions are already one of the best in the world, but not pulling all the strings to get the OpenSuSE community portal roling will damage this. I am afraid the community does not provide enough active resources to match the size of the distribution. Not enough to reach the goals. This can have a huge impact on the distribution and so on the community, OpenSuSE. Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

--- "Joseph M. Gaffney" wrote:

Thats how I took it too (from the OP) - though considering the efforts of Andreas, Sonja, Henne, etc, etc - how could we not consider them an important part of the community?

Not only do they contribute as their job demands, but, imho, they all have gone above and beyond is support of OpenSUSE as a community effort. Should Novell have assistance available? Sure, but I believe by providing the framework, they have done just that. They have also worked with vendors to assure compatibility, apply pressure on software companies to make Linux an easier transition, and now have even started a podcast.

I'd say they damn well do plenty, and I appreciate that :)

I think we all highly appreciate the work of those Novell/SuSE people who do more for OpenSuSE then assigned. But it does not harm to ask those assigned Novell/SuSE people we do not hear of see to help the community to help lift-up/redesign the frontpage. Tim. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

--- "Joseph M. Gaffney" wrote:

Right now? Probably at FOSDEM. Between the 10.1 betas and FOSDEM its a pretty buys few weeks for all of them :)

The attempt to involve assigned marketing staff and (former) webdesigners couldnt have better timing I guess. Tim ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com