[opensuse-wiki] German Wiki & Multi-Language Concept
Community, with the new openSUSE Wiki at wiki.opensuse.org fast approaching and just around the corner, we're going to put additional workforce on it to hold the target launch date of June 1st 2010, which is prior to the release of openSUSE 11.3. In addition to the English Wiki, we'd love to launch the new german wiki at the same time in order to honor the significant reviewing contributions that had been done in the german wiki by a dedicated group of german contributors. We also see that the german openSUSE user community is relatively large and important for the project and distribution. In order to achieve this, I'd like to propose both a strategy for the german wiki as well as a realignment of our current multi-language concept for localized Wikis documented at http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Translation 1) German Wiki The German Community already adopted the wiki reviewing process of existing content and actually outperformed the English efforts. To be able to adopt the new structure concept we're currently creating at wiki.opensuse.org I herewith request a new temporary instance de.wiki.opensuse.org. We want to parallelize the transition efforts of reviewed content into the new instance at de.wiki.opensuse.org. We'd like to build the new German Wiki in parallel to the new English Wiki to be able to switch both DNS entries at the same time and provide the openSUSE Community with the appreciated outcome of both reviewing efforts. 2) Multi-Language Concept In order to provide localized openSUSE documentation resources, i.e. wikis to our user community, we currently follow the Wiki Translation Process outlined at http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Translation. Time has shown that this concept has several drawbacks both from a initiating and a maintaining perspective. Thus I herewith propose the following changes (the rest will be kept as is): a) The initial creation of Mandatory pages, so far, has been done within the English Master Wiki and this is suboptimal because it fills up the master wiki. Thus I propose to create a new languages-server languages.opensuse.org serving as a temporary instance for initial translation efforts. That way, translators have a dedicated sandbox-server to build their localized Wiki prior requesting their own localized instance <languagecode>.opensuse.org. b) I propose to introduce more strict commitment requirements for the maintenance of localized Wikis. Time has shown that initially created localized Wikis remain in an outdated/obsolete state and we need to avoid such a situation. I recommend to introduce a monthly meeting of Wiki maintainers at #opensuse-wiki to discuss needed requirements such as adoption of pages to new releases and syncing of content. The latter aspect is IMO very important: The language-specific instances aren't 1:1 copies of the english master wiki but vital communities by itself providing openSUSE documentation for a their target group. This is valuable content initially created in localized wikis and communication between maintainers is needed in order to sync (two-way direction) content for the profit of both the English master and the other localized Wikis. Also syncing between several localized Wikis should be improved. c) We should encourage localized (existing) communities to adopt the new structure scheme of the english wiki at wiki.opensuse.org. Furthermore we value the adoption of our reviewing processes for localized (existing) communities from a long-term perspective. Experiences with the german wiki have shown that, an engaged contributor community assumed, this is achievable. The maintainer meeting proposed in paragraph b) should support these efforts. d) We need to avoid "non-starters" and/or un-maintained Wikis. That means that granting a <languagecode>.opensuse.org DNS isn't a lifetime guarantee. Committed maintainers should provide hand-over candidates before they decide to move on (this certainly may happen) and instruct them to achieve daily business. If a localized community isn't maintained any longer for more than half a year and engagements to revive commitment for the localized instance fail, we're going to shutdown the localized wiki. Due to the current state of the Wiki concept implementation with a target launch date of June 1st 2010 for both the english and the german wikis, I'd like to encourage everyone interested in the discussion to focus on show-stopping aspects within the presented concept. Please step up within one week from now on (until Sun, the 18th of April) with objections. Time is pressing and there's still lots to do, but we're highly committed to push these efforts with additional workforce. The goal is to generate even more fuzz for the openSUSE project with the 11.3 release together with new sexy instances for both the english and german wiki. I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions, R -- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Moin, On Monday 12 April 2010 09:00:57 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
Community,
with the new openSUSE Wiki at wiki.opensuse.org fast approaching and just around the corner, we're going to put additional workforce on it to hold the target launch date of June 1st 2010, which is prior to the release of openSUSE 11.3.
./.
2) Multi-Language Concept In order to provide localized openSUSE documentation resources, i.e. wikis to our user community, we currently follow the Wiki Translation Process outlined at http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Translation. Time has shown that this concept has several drawbacks both from a initiating and a maintaining perspective. Thus I herewith propose the following changes (the rest will be kept as is):
a) The initial creation of Mandatory pages, so far, has been done within the English Master Wiki and this is suboptimal because it fills up the master wiki.
Thus I propose to create a new languages-server languages.opensuse.org serving as a temporary instance for initial translation efforts. That way, translators have a dedicated sandbox-server to build their localized Wiki prior requesting their own localized instance <languagecode>.opensuse.org. I like the sandbox idea. I guess a new language wiki needs to follow the new scheme we created in wiki.opensuse.org from the beginning, right?
./. Both the monthly meetings and the shut down of unmaintained wiki I think are valuable methods to offer best information in our different languages wikis.
Due to the current state of the Wiki concept implementation with a target launch date of June 1st 2010 for both the english and the german wikis, I'd like to encourage everyone interested in the discussion to focus on show-stopping aspects within the presented concept. Please step up within one week from now on (until Sun, the 18th of April) with objections. Time is pressing and there's still lots to do, but we're highly committed to push these efforts with additional workforce. The goal is to generate even more fuzz for the openSUSE project with the 11.3 release together with new sexy instances for both the english and german wiki.
I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions, All together looks like a profound and doable concept. Thanks for creating the concept and open this discussion (even if its not yet a real discussion - maybe due to the broad acceptance of the concept). Best M R
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Moin,
2010/4/13 Michael Loeffler
Moin, On Monday 12 April 2010 09:00:57 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
Community,
with the new openSUSE Wiki at wiki.opensuse.org fast approaching and just around the corner, we're going to put additional workforce on it to hold the target launch date of June 1st 2010, which is prior to the release of openSUSE 11.3.
./.
2) Multi-Language Concept In order to provide localized openSUSE documentation resources, i.e. wikis to our user community, we currently follow the Wiki Translation Process outlined at http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Translation. Time has shown that this concept has several drawbacks both from a initiating and a maintaining perspective. Thus I herewith propose the following changes (the rest will be kept as is):
a) The initial creation of Mandatory pages, so far, has been done within the English Master Wiki and this is suboptimal because it fills up the master wiki.
Thus I propose to create a new languages-server languages.opensuse.org serving as a temporary instance for initial translation efforts. That way, translators have a dedicated sandbox-server to build their localized Wiki prior requesting their own localized instance <languagecode>.opensuse.org. I like the sandbox idea. I guess a new language wiki needs to follow the new scheme we created in wiki.opensuse.org from the beginning, right?
This should indeed be a requirement once we're live with both the English and German Wikis on June 1st 2010, yes! Thanks for pointing this out! Best, R
./. Both the monthly meetings and the shut down of unmaintained wiki I think are valuable methods to offer best information in our different languages wikis.
Due to the current state of the Wiki concept implementation with a target launch date of June 1st 2010 for both the english and the german wikis, I'd like to encourage everyone interested in the discussion to focus on show-stopping aspects within the presented concept. Please step up within one week from now on (until Sun, the 18th of April) with objections. Time is pressing and there's still lots to do, but we're highly committed to push these efforts with additional workforce. The goal is to generate even more fuzz for the openSUSE project with the 11.3 release together with new sexy instances for both the english and german wiki.
I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions, All together looks like a profound and doable concept. Thanks for creating the concept and open this discussion (even if its not yet a real discussion - maybe due to the broad acceptance of the concept). Best M R
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex
-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 15 April 2010 03:51:38 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
I like the sandbox idea. I guess a new language wiki needs to follow the new scheme we created in wiki.opensuse.org from the beginning, right?
This should indeed be a requirement once we're live with both the English and German Wikis on June 1st 2010, yes! Thanks for pointing this out!
Sandbox is one use of languages.o.o. It should be also place where one can start translation with minimal set of rules, in order to attract other people in his area by making installation and use of openSUSE easier. That means one man show and single article translation must be allowed in languages.o.o. IMO, any translated article makes openSUSE closer to people that before had no chance to use it due to language barrier. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 04/12/2010 12:30 PM, Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
Community,
with the new openSUSE Wiki at wiki.opensuse.org fast approaching and just around the corner, we're going to put additional workforce on it to hold the target launch date of June 1st 2010, which is prior to the release of openSUSE 11.3.
In addition to the English Wiki, we'd love to launch the new german wiki at the same time in order to honor the significant reviewing contributions that had been done in the german wiki by a dedicated group of german contributors. We also see that the german openSUSE user community is relatively large and important for the project and distribution.
In order to achieve this, I'd like to propose both a strategy for the german wiki as well as a realignment of our current multi-language concept for localized Wikis documented at http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Translation
b) I propose to introduce more strict commitment requirements for the maintenance of localized Wikis. Time has shown that initially created localized Wikis remain in an outdated/obsolete state and we need to avoid such a situation. I recommend to introduce a monthly meeting of Wiki maintainers at #opensuse-wiki to discuss needed requirements such as adoption of pages to new releases and syncing of content.
+1
The latter aspect is IMO very important: The language-specific instances aren't 1:1 copies of the english master wiki but vital communities by itself providing openSUSE documentation for a their target group.
This is valuable content initially created in localized wikis and communication between maintainers is needed in order to sync (two-way direction) content for the profit of both the English master and the other localized Wikis. Also syncing between several localized Wikis should be improved.
c) We should encourage localized (existing) communities to adopt the new structure scheme of the english wiki at wiki.opensuse.org. Furthermore we value the adoption of our reviewing processes for localized (existing) communities from a long-term perspective. Experiences with the german wiki have shown that, an engaged contributor community assumed, this is achievable. The maintainer meeting proposed in paragraph b) should support these efforts.
d) We need to avoid "non-starters" and/or un-maintained Wikis. That means that granting a <languagecode>.opensuse.org DNS isn't a lifetime guarantee. Committed maintainers should provide hand-over candidates before they decide to move on (this certainly may happen) and instruct them to achieve daily business. If a localized community isn't maintained any longer for more than half a year and engagements to revive commitment for the localized instance fail, we're going to shutdown the localized wiki.
Due to the current state of the Wiki concept implementation with a target launch date of June 1st 2010 for both the english and the german wikis, I'd like to encourage everyone interested in the discussion to focus on show-stopping aspects within the presented concept. Please step up within one week from now on (until Sun, the 18th of April) with objections. Time is pressing and there's still lots to do, but we're highly committed to push these efforts with additional workforce. The goal is to generate even more fuzz for the openSUSE project with the 11.3 release together with new sexy instances for both the english and german wiki.
I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions, R
Hello , Well what i observed and feel is that , for the reviewing process we need those people who are good or rather pro at those topics , which we lack.And so the wiki team members are fall short for this entire .Thus i feel another call (like the previous) would be required in order to attract more contributors or PRO's for the purpose . -- Regards, SJ(Shayon) openSUSE http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock Twitter: ShayonM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Shayon,
2010/4/14 Shayon Mukherjee
On 04/12/2010 12:30 PM, Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
Community,
with the new openSUSE Wiki at wiki.opensuse.org fast approaching and just around the corner, we're going to put additional workforce on it to hold the target launch date of June 1st 2010, which is prior to the release of openSUSE 11.3.
In addition to the English Wiki, we'd love to launch the new german wiki at the same time in order to honor the significant reviewing contributions that had been done in the german wiki by a dedicated group of german contributors. We also see that the german openSUSE user community is relatively large and important for the project and distribution.
In order to achieve this, I'd like to propose both a strategy for the german wiki as well as a realignment of our current multi-language concept for localized Wikis documented at http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Translation
b) I propose to introduce more strict commitment requirements for the maintenance of localized Wikis. Time has shown that initially created localized Wikis remain in an outdated/obsolete state and we need to avoid such a situation. I recommend to introduce a monthly meeting of Wiki maintainers at #opensuse-wiki to discuss needed requirements such as adoption of pages to new releases and syncing of content.
+1
The latter aspect is IMO very important: The language-specific instances aren't 1:1 copies of the english master wiki but vital communities by itself providing openSUSE documentation for a their target group.
This is valuable content initially created in localized wikis and communication between maintainers is needed in order to sync (two-way direction) content for the profit of both the English master and the other localized Wikis. Also syncing between several localized Wikis should be improved.
c) We should encourage localized (existing) communities to adopt the new structure scheme of the english wiki at wiki.opensuse.org. Furthermore we value the adoption of our reviewing processes for localized (existing) communities from a long-term perspective. Experiences with the german wiki have shown that, an engaged contributor community assumed, this is achievable. The maintainer meeting proposed in paragraph b) should support these efforts.
d) We need to avoid "non-starters" and/or un-maintained Wikis. That means that granting a <languagecode>.opensuse.org DNS isn't a lifetime guarantee. Committed maintainers should provide hand-over candidates before they decide to move on (this certainly may happen) and instruct them to achieve daily business. If a localized community isn't maintained any longer for more than half a year and engagements to revive commitment for the localized instance fail, we're going to shutdown the localized wiki.
Due to the current state of the Wiki concept implementation with a target launch date of June 1st 2010 for both the english and the german wikis, I'd like to encourage everyone interested in the discussion to focus on show-stopping aspects within the presented concept. Please step up within one week from now on (until Sun, the 18th of April) with objections. Time is pressing and there's still lots to do, but we're highly committed to push these efforts with additional workforce. The goal is to generate even more fuzz for the openSUSE project with the 11.3 release together with new sexy instances for both the english and german wiki.
I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions, R
Hello , Well what i observed and feel is that , for the reviewing process we need those people who are good or rather pro at those topics , which we lack.And so the wiki team members are fall short for this entire .Thus i feel another call (like the previous) would be required in order to attract more contributors or PRO's for the purpose .
While I second your comment, this multi-language concept has nothing to do with the current reviewing of Wiki content *confused*. That said, we'll make some more noise (again) in order to gain additional contributors once we managed to populate wiki.o.o with a notable amount of content. Jens (a colleague of mine from open-slx) is already ready to jump in and help is to achieve this particular task. Thanks, R
-- Regards, SJ(Shayon) openSUSE http://en.opensuse.org/User:Wwarlock Twitter: ShayonM
-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 12 April 2010 02:00:57 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
To be able to adopt the new structure concept we're currently creating at wiki.opensuse.org I herewith request a new temporary instance de.wiki.opensuse.org.
Sincerely you need features that has wiki.opensuse.org in de.o.o not a new wiki instance. This will be short way to have articles that are already in place on de.o.o (and en.o.o) indexed in the way new wiki instance allows. That way we can have instant improvement and time to use new wiki instance for research of new tools, which is language independent process, so there is no need for more wiki.o.o versions. The only extra work for that is to copy wiki.o.o configuration to old wikis. Our server admin can do that in a jiffy. My humble estimate is half of hour to pick pieces from wiki.o.o and apply to old wikis (all of them). *** We need one instance for research. *** I can't understand how endless blind chicken tactics to find the food (try and see) will bring any solution that we can actually use? I'm wondering how many more skilled openSUSE users we can activate if we have research instance and all features on language wikis? Bento theme will be operational in some future. Where we are going to test that? I guess that Robert will need quite some time to create CSS for all servers that are in use by openSUSE. It is awful lot of elements to create, then we have to test that and allow some time to debug. When theme is operational we have to write docs how to use it. We will have that in a more then a year. It is just huge change. We can profit if current skin is improved, which is much lesser work. As it is now, we have to rush making some new mistakes and repeating some old in a new way. Example of old mistake in a new way is cramming few different things that require different tools in one name space, this time it is openSUSE, as it was Main in old wiki version. Tools in MediaWiki can be turned on and off per namespace, so piling up all in one will bring the same problem we have, lack of flexibility. Old mistake in a new way is elimination of support and introduction SDB as user path to search for support. Check left column of http://wiki.opensuse.org/ Discover it *Distribution *Support database *Project *Wiki *Contact *Sitemap We don't have SDB. How long it will take to create one? Then how long it will take to teach all of our users including new ones what means SDB. They know kb (knowledge base) and even more know support, but not many know what means cool acronym SDB. The rest you mentioned I will answer when I get time. The end of the week is just too short and can bring more pain with rushed half baked decisions. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-04-16 06:14, Rajko M. wrote: ... ...
We don't have SDB. How long it will take to create one? Then how long it will take to teach all of our users including new ones what means SDB. They know kb (knowledge base) and even more know support, but not many know what means cool acronym SDB.
I do O:-) Old hands know, I guess. The old SDB, which was also installable locally as an RPM, with incremental weekly or daily tgz updates, searchable in our own local apache server. Very cool. In the wiki? No, I don't often use it, it does not pop up in searches often. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkvIDcEACgkQja8UbcUWM1y9YAD9F2iky931BTmX5iZ/dtv4xzjr VTgkq9iDbOI20S5vyWQA/11cLMr3RIZGY8KFYQZ2JQFLm6gkZEd1YdIN6dvS5Eau =qC42 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Rajko,
first of all, thanks for your input on this. That said, please see my
answers inline.
2010/4/16 Rajko M.
On Monday 12 April 2010 02:00:57 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
To be able to adopt the new structure concept we're currently creating at wiki.opensuse.org I herewith request a new temporary instance de.wiki.opensuse.org.
Sincerely you need features that has wiki.opensuse.org in de.o.o not a new wiki instance. This will be short way to have articles that are already in place on de.o.o (and en.o.o) indexed in the way new wiki instance allows.
That way we can have instant improvement and time to use new wiki instance for research of new tools, which is language independent process, so there is no need for more wiki.o.o versions. The only extra work for that is to copy wiki.o.o configuration to old wikis. Our server admin can do that in a jiffy. My humble estimate is half of hour to pick pieces from wiki.o.o and apply to old wikis (all of them).
*** We need one instance for research. ***
I can't understand how endless blind chicken tactics to find the food (try and see) will bring any solution that we can actually use? I'm wondering how many more skilled openSUSE users we can activate if we have research instance and all features on language wikis?
I'm not on the same page as of the "de.o.o with features from wiki.o.o VS de.wiki.o.o" decision. We have to hold a strong timeline (June 1st 2010) for both the English and the German Wiki and after investigating the situation, de.wiki.o.o is required to be able to fully parallelize the process for our workforce we put upon this effort. Starting with a fresh instance and populate it with content (according to the new wiki.o.o structure) is the way to go here (just for the German Wiki, I do not propose this for every language wiki out there. Local maintainers should decide which road to go here). According to henne, the master = wiki.o.o is almost ready for production use. Thus we do not need a plain testing instance for another few months and can start copying what we have into a German transition instance = de.wiki.o.o in order to do the very same transition process as with the English master wiki. Actually the German Reviewing efforts even outperformed the English ones and we're in desperate need of de.wiki.o.o there. Also, we won't manage to transfer the whole English and German wikis to their new instances until June 1st 2010 and thus both former de.o.o and en.o.o will be kept intact as a temporary archive once DNS are switched and content isn't migrated 100%. We need to push the new wikis out to the general public in time though in order to utilize the momentum the release of 11.3 will offer to the openSUSE project. The contributing situation is at best semi-optimal currently (especially for the English wiki) and we're not able to afford another few months of discussions and poking around without presenting something to the community that is worth it participating and gaining NEW contributors to the Wiki.
Bento theme will be operational in some future. Where we are going to test that?
I guess that Robert will need quite some time to create CSS for all servers that are in use by openSUSE. It is awful lot of elements to create, then we have to test that and allow some time to debug. When theme is operational we have to write docs how to use it. We will have that in a more then a year. It is just huge change.
We can profit if current skin is improved, which is much lesser work.
As it is now, we have to rush making some new mistakes and repeating some old in a new way.
Example of old mistake in a new way is cramming few different things that require different tools in one name space, this time it is openSUSE, as it was Main in old wiki version. Tools in MediaWiki can be turned on and off per namespace, so piling up all in one will bring the same problem we have, lack of flexibility.
Old mistake in a new way is elimination of support and introduction SDB as user path to search for support. Check left column of http://wiki.opensuse.org/ Discover it *Distribution *Support database *Project *Wiki *Contact *Sitemap
We don't have SDB. How long it will take to create one? Then how long it will take to teach all of our users including new ones what means SDB. They know kb (knowledge base) and even more know support, but not many know what means cool acronym SDB.
The rest you mentioned I will answer when I get time. The end of the week is just too short and can bring more pain with rushed half baked decisions.
While you bring up some valid ideas here, this all isn't first glance scope of the problem with the German Wiki and the Multi-Language Concept. We'll decide on the fly how to deal with these once we move forward. I noted before and I respectfully ask again for it: "Please focus on show-stopping aspects". Time is pressing and we need to move forward.
-- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Thanks, R -- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 16 April 2010 11:20:50 Rupert Horstkötter wrote: ...
I'm not on the same page as of the "de.o.o with features from wiki.o.o VS de.wiki.o.o" decision. We have to hold a strong timeline (June 1st 2010) for both the English and the German Wiki and after investigating the situation, de.wiki.o.o is required to be able to fully parallelize the process for our workforce we put upon this effort. Starting with a fresh instance and populate it with content (according to the new wiki.o.o structure) is the way to go here (just for the German Wiki, I do not propose this for every language wiki out there. Local maintainers should decide which road to go here).
Populating empty wiki with content is process that needs testing to make sure that we covered majority of topics that 11.3 users may need. When you get report that something is missing you need time to fix it. Old wikis are in the bad shape regarding ability to find appropriate articles and relevance of some articles, but they have some coverage for almost everything. I'm not worried about beginner finding nonsense articles: 1) There is few of them, (I don't count obsolete as nonsense) 2) Whatever is not indexed or categorized is lost, (which is not hard to prove) One of problems with en.o.o was removal of Portal pages from front page. While I had problem to keep them up to date, and at some point used opportunity to agree with idea to remove them, last time I did update they still covered very large percentage of the all wiki content; missing mostly articles that are not relevant to new users. To have that much coverage in a new created wiki you need a lot of man hours that can be better used to fix topics and create navigation structure that new users can actually use. New structure (schema, content layout) proposed by Henne is one way to navigate wiki, but not the only one. You can imagine that as creator of en.o.o Portal I'm for idea to have that, but I know that there are other ways and I want to keep other options open. I have problem to incorporate current Portal: design in my mind as a single navigation option in the new wiki concept: 1) It is so non opensource, and for that matter it is so non Wikipedia, and so far I see we want to follow it as an example, 2) Advantage is that user get potpourri if our offer in visually appealing form, which is what new users will like, 3) Disadvantage is that is complex which presents problem to create and maintain, so basing all navigation on it will create need for permanent maintainers, which means a lot more people engaged all the time 4) Current layout is overloaded with graphic elements that steal attention form content, we need something lighter with not so many content divider lines; in some parts of the world current Portal layout design can be appealing, as part of culture are visually busy motives with a lot of details, but even there simple is easier to use - basic human design (body) is essentially the same. Above is not strictly on topic with your requests, but it is explanation why I think that faster way to have something usable for June 1st is to copy MediaWiki software configuration (namespaces, extensions, CSS) from wiki.o.o to de.o.o and en.o.o, then to move content the other way around. I have problem to figure out how to use current Portal design, and Henne's explanation in another email opened more questions, but I have to see what to ask next, before I actually can ask. I'm not sure that when your wiki editor with a lot of experience is stuck with Portal implementation, that you will find many volunteers able to implement it fast. To buy the time, you need something that already works, and implement Portal ideas on top of it. That way you avoid danger to have half baked solution that lacks new user essentials. Fixing wiki problems on the run with user needing help "looking" at you is not recipe for good solutions. IMO, rushing transfer just to have something online on time can have another adverse effect, volunteers displeased with public perception of their effort leaving project.
According to henne, the master = wiki.o.o is almost ready for production use.
Keyword is almost and relates to bugs. There are no showstoppers, see: http://tinyurl.com/y2d72kz To me it seems that page needs update, as I'm sure that problem with Category:Portals is fixed. BTW, this is example what happens when page is not easy to find; it is not used even by those that created it in a first place. It was linked on a old Main page and now it can be found only in Special:All pages for openSUSE namespace. Even those that know it exists can't afford time to go trough labyrinth of links to reach it.
Thus we do not need a plain testing instance for another few months and can start copying what we have into a German transition instance = de.wiki.o.o in order to do the very same transition process as with the English master wiki. Actually the German Reviewing efforts even outperformed the English ones and we're in desperate need of de.wiki.o.o there.
After reading all above you think that you need de.wiki.o.o then you really need it. I'm sure that I need features of wiki.o.o in en.o.o to find out how to use Henne's Portal concept efficiently. It will help me to have content and features (extensions, namespaces, CSS) in one place without week(s) of work to move something the other way around, to find out that I need more, or that I have to remove something, or even worse that many articles need fixes. I'm pretty sure that I can have usable wiki by June 1st alone, not to mention if somebody jumps in and help. Then I have time to copy articles on a new wiki instance, specially because I'm sure what to copy.
... While you bring up some valid ideas here, this all isn't first glance scope of the problem with the German Wiki and the Multi-Language Concept. We'll decide on the fly how to deal with these once we move forward. I noted before and I respectfully ask again for it: "Please focus on show-stopping aspects". Time is pressing and we need to move forward.
I do focus on showstoppers, the only problem is that I can see more because I did wiki maintenance before and I can recognize problems a bit ahead of others that did not spent time trying to fix old (current) wiki. To make clear, I do want to clean up old wiki, and moving content to new instance is the least painful solution, but we need more time to learn how to use all nice features it has. Populating it now with articles adjusted for 5 year old wiki features will bring us no good in a long run. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 18 April 2010 09:38:31 Rajko M. wrote:
To me it seems that page needs update, as I'm sure that problem with Category:Portals is fixed.
Updated. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag 16 April 2010 06:14:21 schrieb Rajko M.:
On Monday 12 April 2010 02:00:57 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
To be able to adopt the new structure concept we're currently creating at wiki.opensuse.org I herewith request a new temporary instance de.wiki.opensuse.org.
Sincerely you need features that has wiki.opensuse.org in de.o.o not a new wiki instance. This will be short way to have articles that are already in place on de.o.o (and en.o.o) indexed in the way new wiki instance allows.
That way we can have instant improvement and time to use new wiki instance for research of new tools, which is language independent process, so there is no need for more wiki.o.o versions. The only extra work for that is to copy wiki.o.o configuration to old wikis. Our server admin can do that in a jiffy. My humble estimate is half of hour to pick pieces from wiki.o.o and apply to old wikis (all of them). Do I get it right that you suggest to copy the the configuration that was created on wiki.o.o to en.o.o and de.o.o once we decide to do so instead of creating new instances, fill them and later on we switch the DNS?
I think Ruperts point is that we need a german wiki that is not the official but where people can work on to adopt it to that what the new wiki is about: structure and reviewed content.
*** We need one instance for research. ***
I agree but at a point of time, this is not wiki.o.o nor de.wiki.o.o any more, because both are going to be the onces that are going to be released as new official ones. They have to go into a release candidate state. To have a research instance than, I suggest to create factory.wiki.o.o which will become the new research instance than. (Names are bogus, but you get the point).
I can't understand how endless blind chicken tactics to find the food (try and see) will bring any solution that we can actually use?
Hmm?
I'm wondering how many more skilled openSUSE users we can activate if we have research instance and all features on language wikis? Well, it seems that there are some quite willing people for languages, such as german. We should not hinder them to work.
The rest you mentioned I will answer when I get time. The end of the week is just too short and can bring more pain with rushed half baked decisions. I guess sometimes its about moving ahead and make it possible for people to contribute. Even more, we have good reasons to hurry if we want new wikis by release of 11.3. And I think we should strive for that, even on the risk that there remain questions open.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
2010/4/16 Klaas Freitag
Am Freitag 16 April 2010 06:14:21 schrieb Rajko M.:
On Monday 12 April 2010 02:00:57 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
To be able to adopt the new structure concept we're currently creating at wiki.opensuse.org I herewith request a new temporary instance de.wiki.opensuse.org.
Sincerely you need features that has wiki.opensuse.org in de.o.o not a new wiki instance. This will be short way to have articles that are already in place on de.o.o (and en.o.o) indexed in the way new wiki instance allows.
That way we can have instant improvement and time to use new wiki instance for research of new tools, which is language independent process, so there is no need for more wiki.o.o versions. The only extra work for that is to copy wiki.o.o configuration to old wikis. Our server admin can do that in a jiffy. My humble estimate is half of hour to pick pieces from wiki.o.o and apply to old wikis (all of them). Do I get it right that you suggest to copy the the configuration that was created on wiki.o.o to en.o.o and de.o.o once we decide to do so instead of creating new instances, fill them and later on we switch the DNS?
I think Ruperts point is that we need a german wiki that is not the official but where people can work on to adopt it to that what the new wiki is about: structure and reviewed content.
Yes, we need a German wiki.o.o instance, i.e. de.wiki.o.o in order to parallelize the migration efforts we do with the English Wiki and to release both of them at the same time, i.e. to switch the DNS at our target date and to keep both en.o.o and de.o.o as old Wikis until we have all rest-content transferred to the new official Wikis. That way we start with a fresh infrastructure instead of trying to adopt wiki.o.o principles to de.o.o. Rajko and I had a discussion about this two(?) months ago on IRC and I certainly took this into consideration and investigated this opportunity, but in order to achieve our goal (releasing English and German at the same time with the current state of wiki.o.o) it's dissimilar harder. The German contributor group is even ahead with the Reviewing efforts and it's much easier to implement a 1:1 process for the German migration especially for people that do the actual transition of content and are involved with both Wiki Concept implementations without having any drawbacks involved. We urgently need to take care that we make the process as easy as possible for contributors (i.e. the very same process for both Wikis) and I'd like to avoid discouraging the German contributor group by being somehow blocked from the English process. Last but not least (I mentioned this before), it's unlikely that we manage to complete transition for all content within the old wikis (but the most important one) and in order to switch DNS at target date it's valuable to have fresh instances as we can keep the old ones as is until the rest-content is migrated. I feel putting out 80% (from a content perspective) at the the very right time (momentum of 11.3 = attention to the Project) is a big chance for us to get more and especially new people involved. We need to present something "sexy" in time to raise attention and stop somehow discouraging. Not to forget: The new Wikis are, from a structural perspective, very much different from the old Wikis and it's dissimilar harder to implement wiki.o.o features and principles within old instances instead of creating a new one for the German Wiki and fill it with reviewed content. This does not mean the technical implementation of features within the old wikis but the adoption of the ideological scheme.
*** We need one instance for research. ***
I agree but at a point of time, this is not wiki.o.o nor de.wiki.o.o any more, because both are going to be the onces that are going to be released as new official ones. They have to go into a release candidate state.
To have a research instance than, I suggest to create factory.wiki.o.o which will become the new research instance than. (Names are bogus, but you get the point).
+1
I can't understand how endless blind chicken tactics to find the food (try and see) will bring any solution that we can actually use?
Hmm?
I'm wondering how many more skilled openSUSE users we can activate if we have research instance and all features on language wikis? Well, it seems that there are some quite willing people for languages, such as german. We should not hinder them to work.
The rest you mentioned I will answer when I get time. The end of the week is just too short and can bring more pain with rushed half baked decisions. I guess sometimes its about moving ahead and make it possible for people to contribute. Even more, we have good reasons to hurry if we want new wikis by release of 11.3. And I think we should strive for that, even on the risk that there remain questions open.
I second this. This actually is what I tried to outline above. Best, R
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 16 April 2010 11:55:25 Klaas Freitag wrote:
Am Freitag 16 April 2010 06:14:21 schrieb Rajko M.: ... Do I get it right that you suggest to copy the the configuration that was created on wiki.o.o to en.o.o and de.o.o once we decide to do so instead of creating new instances, fill them and later on we switch the DNS?
To make me clear, new instance is the way to make clean wiki, but there is new idea to be ready by June 1st with something presentable for the 11.3 release. I understand that Rupert wants usable user docs for open-slx, but having better wiki can be used as additional point for 11.3 marketing effort. Good timing can help distribution and the wiki itself. Distribution will look better with revamped user help system, and wiki can benefit from new volunteers that may be interested to join the effort. That has potential to open positive feedback cycle that everyone involved with openSUSE would like to see, where one improvement lays ground for another, bringing more motivated volunteers to contribute. I know that rush to populate new wiki instance(s) with content will bring some result, but it will be suboptimal. We will load articles that are created with 2005 wiki feature set, literally ignoring some of the best new features that are meant to make maintenance of existing and creation of new articles much easier. Article template http://wiki.opensuse.org/Template:Article is one example. It should be used all over the wiki and it doesn't make any use of http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CategoryTree which is automatic way to list categories in a tree view. CategoryTree makes possible to list recommended and related content in a compact form, right in the article. Before, reader was forced to visit category page leaving article, now he can have overview right in the article that he reads. How that can improve authoring and editing. Instead of manually adding link by link of recommendations, article author can use that effort to categorize related articles and then put related category in a category tree view. One effort that many can reuse, instead of repeating the same search for related content time and again. Why it is not used? When Remy created Article template he did that in old wiki that lacks all new tools of wiki.o.o, which made impossible to test how template works. Why he didn't use wiki.o.o? Because there was no articles that one can categorize and use in a tree view. Remy, Shayon and me, are not wiki, nor web design, professionals that have ready to go recipes for different situations. We have to research and experiment to find a solution, so we need tools and material in one building, not two, and we need freedom to experiment. I had some YaST related articles for testing purposes in a wiki.o.o, but that was used just to test that CategoryTree actually works, not how to implement it. I did testing, Remy did templates. He is good in graphical layout and we share a lot of ideas, so I didn't look over his shoulder. He is aware of CategoryTree, but in the old wiki you don't have it. Rupert is focused on Q/A and FlaggedRevs as tools of choice to achieve a goal, but we have much more. You can see http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Version , and we can load even more tools that we haven't found before. For instance I tested http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ReaderFeedback that can enable even not logged in visitors to give feedback on articles. The use of extension is very straightforward, and it can be nice supplement to FlaggedRevs. It works fine on my local wiki instance that has all listed in Special:Version and more. I can't talk about Semantic MediaWiki as I still learn what it is: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki It is complex extension that has its own extensions, so it will take time to go trough and pick what we may want: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extensions Henne mentioned some extension that I lost, that can add to wiki ability to present slide show. I guess that this is the one: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Javascript_Slideshow We can use it to present installation workflow for people that never before did installation, or to give some setup instructions in a few slides. I got no chance to install it and test. ...
To have a research instance than, I suggest to create factory.wiki.o.o which will become the new research instance than. (Names are bogus, but you get the point).
With all above should be clear what kind of test instance we need, but in any case we don't need it in a year. We need it with 11.3 release, or even better even before as it can be included in 11.3 marketing effort as one more argument that we are dead serious to make openSUSE the best.
I can't understand how endless blind chicken tactics to find the food (try and see) will bring any solution that we can actually use?
Hmm?
Rushed decisions never give good solutions, and above comment is how I feel about them. We have rushed run into transition with tools 5 years old. Now we have to rush and fill new instance with articles that use the same 5 year old options. Can't we find some intermediate solution to satisfy time constraint of June 1st and still working on better wiki.
I'm wondering how many more skilled openSUSE users we can activate if we have research instance and all features on language wikis?
Well, it seems that there are some quite willing people for languages, such as german. We should not hinder them to work.
Providing better tools never hinders ... :)
... I guess sometimes its about moving ahead and make it possible for people to contribute. Even more, we have good reasons to hurry if we want new wikis by release of 11.3. And I think we should strive for that, even on the risk that there remain questions open.
... and it gives people opportunity to contribute more with lesser effort. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Rajko,
after reading your numerous emails to the opensuse-wiki mailing list
during the weekend, I herewith try to answer with a single response.
It's really clear that you have a strong technical understanding and
knowledge and this is certainly much appreciated by the whole group.
I'd like to point this out very clear.
That said, we decided months ago as a community to implement the
process with wiki.o.o, i.e. migrating content to the new instance and
switch the DNS at target date which is now set to June 1st in order to
go live prior 11.3 release. While this may have certain drawbacks (and
advantages as well), it isn't fruitful to start over again and again
and put things into question we long work on as a team, coordinated
and hand in hand. I'd like to encourage you to set aside the goal of
perfectionism as this is some desire of yours I read in your emails
and something we won't achieve whatever we do.
My job as coordinator of the overall concept is to get somewhere and
we jointly agreed and are currently working hard on the strategy as
is. Thus, I respectfully like to ask you to canalize your potential
and to support the team with your doubtfully available knowledge in
order to reach the overall goal.
1. We did the Reviewing within the old instances
2. We now populate wiki.o.o with reviewed content according to the
transtion guidelines we defined and the new structure Henne and Tom
built.
3. Until June 1st we try to migrate as much interesting content as
possible to the new instances and then we'll switch the DNS and keep
the old instance, if, and that's most likely, we haven't managed to
migrate 100% of the content until then.
All workforce we currently have is focused on this very strategy and
just starting with this week, Jens Koeke, another open-slx employee
and collegue of mine has been instructed by Henne and Tom and is
working full-time on these efforts in order to support the openSUSE
community. This process is nailed in stone since months and it's not
an opportunity to put this in question now as we have a timeline to
hold and all workforce is focused on that. Once we achieved to migrate
a significant amount of content and are able to describe the
ideological scheme of the new wiki to the community (using the
migrated content as an example), I myself will put another workload
into encouraging the outer community to jump in and help us (call for
contributors at news.o.o, the lists, the forums etc.)
My request for the German Wiki was to do the very same process in
parallel in order to re-use processes we're used to (I hope the
intention is clear to you). The migration in the German wiki will be
done by the very same contributor group and with wiki.o.o in a general
consumption state it's easy to implement the very same process there
as well .. in order to implement a routine task for involved people.
All that said, I very much hope that you're interested in helping out
achieving our goal with the described strategy and I'm pretty sure
that your knowledge will lead to an even better result if you put your
engagement and workforce into it. We're in desperate need of as much
helping hands as possible but, at the current state of the project
plan, it's urgently required to work hand in hand and to focus into
the very same direction. You certainly pointed out valid concerns
within your numerous emails and I'd like to ask you to jump in and
provide this knowledge to the group while migrating the content to
wiki.o.o.
Thanks,
R
2010/4/18 Rajko M.
On Friday 16 April 2010 11:55:25 Klaas Freitag wrote:
Am Freitag 16 April 2010 06:14:21 schrieb Rajko M.: ... Do I get it right that you suggest to copy the the configuration that was created on wiki.o.o to en.o.o and de.o.o once we decide to do so instead of creating new instances, fill them and later on we switch the DNS?
To make me clear, new instance is the way to make clean wiki, but there is new idea to be ready by June 1st with something presentable for the 11.3 release.
I understand that Rupert wants usable user docs for open-slx, but having better wiki can be used as additional point for 11.3 marketing effort. Good timing can help distribution and the wiki itself. Distribution will look better with revamped user help system, and wiki can benefit from new volunteers that may be interested to join the effort. That has potential to open positive feedback cycle that everyone involved with openSUSE would like to see, where one improvement lays ground for another, bringing more motivated volunteers to contribute.
I know that rush to populate new wiki instance(s) with content will bring some result, but it will be suboptimal. We will load articles that are created with 2005 wiki feature set, literally ignoring some of the best new features that are meant to make maintenance of existing and creation of new articles much easier.
Article template http://wiki.opensuse.org/Template:Article is one example. It should be used all over the wiki and it doesn't make any use of http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:CategoryTree which is automatic way to list categories in a tree view. CategoryTree makes possible to list recommended and related content in a compact form, right in the article. Before, reader was forced to visit category page leaving article, now he can have overview right in the article that he reads.
How that can improve authoring and editing. Instead of manually adding link by link of recommendations, article author can use that effort to categorize related articles and then put related category in a category tree view. One effort that many can reuse, instead of repeating the same search for related content time and again.
Why it is not used? When Remy created Article template he did that in old wiki that lacks all new tools of wiki.o.o, which made impossible to test how template works. Why he didn't use wiki.o.o? Because there was no articles that one can categorize and use in a tree view.
Remy, Shayon and me, are not wiki, nor web design, professionals that have ready to go recipes for different situations. We have to research and experiment to find a solution, so we need tools and material in one building, not two, and we need freedom to experiment.
I had some YaST related articles for testing purposes in a wiki.o.o, but that was used just to test that CategoryTree actually works, not how to implement it. I did testing, Remy did templates. He is good in graphical layout and we share a lot of ideas, so I didn't look over his shoulder. He is aware of CategoryTree, but in the old wiki you don't have it.
Rupert is focused on Q/A and FlaggedRevs as tools of choice to achieve a goal, but we have much more. You can see http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Version , and we can load even more tools that we haven't found before. For instance I tested http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ReaderFeedback that can enable even not logged in visitors to give feedback on articles. The use of extension is very straightforward, and it can be nice supplement to FlaggedRevs. It works fine on my local wiki instance that has all listed in Special:Version and more.
I can't talk about Semantic MediaWiki as I still learn what it is: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki It is complex extension that has its own extensions, so it will take time to go trough and pick what we may want: http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extensions
Henne mentioned some extension that I lost, that can add to wiki ability to present slide show. I guess that this is the one: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Javascript_Slideshow We can use it to present installation workflow for people that never before did installation, or to give some setup instructions in a few slides. I got no chance to install it and test.
...
To have a research instance than, I suggest to create factory.wiki.o.o which will become the new research instance than. (Names are bogus, but you get the point).
With all above should be clear what kind of test instance we need, but in any case we don't need it in a year. We need it with 11.3 release, or even better even before as it can be included in 11.3 marketing effort as one more argument that we are dead serious to make openSUSE the best.
I can't understand how endless blind chicken tactics to find the food (try and see) will bring any solution that we can actually use?
Hmm?
Rushed decisions never give good solutions, and above comment is how I feel about them. We have rushed run into transition with tools 5 years old. Now we have to rush and fill new instance with articles that use the same 5 year old options. Can't we find some intermediate solution to satisfy time constraint of June 1st and still working on better wiki.
I'm wondering how many more skilled openSUSE users we can activate if we have research instance and all features on language wikis?
Well, it seems that there are some quite willing people for languages, such as german. We should not hinder them to work.
Providing better tools never hinders ... :)
... I guess sometimes its about moving ahead and make it possible for people to contribute. Even more, we have good reasons to hurry if we want new wikis by release of 11.3. And I think we should strive for that, even on the risk that there remain questions open.
... and it gives people opportunity to contribute more with lesser effort.
-- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Klaas Freitag -
Michael Loeffler -
Rajko M. -
Rupert Horstkötter -
Shayon Mukherjee