[opensuse-wiki] Redundant namespaces, in particular openSUSE:
Hello All and Everyone- Today, I wish to talk about redundancy. In particular things that add no new information and are a simple rearrangement of the understood data. In other words: repetitiveness for no-gain at all. Problem ------- I was trying to point a community member at the Kernel Git page today so they could get involved. But I was baffled to find it gone. Searching a bit I ended up finding it at this URL: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Kernel_git Two openSUSE's in one URL, what a deal! Without that openSUSE: namespace I might have thought I was going to grab the Ubuntu Kernel Git... As we are breaking URLs all over with this new wiki anyways can we take a moment and consider the URL monsters we are creating here? Just look at it once again: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Kernel_git There has got to be something better, lets find a solution. :) Solution -------- Lets look at the mission statement of the openSUSE: namespace[1]: "And the openSUSE community's openSUSE: namespace to collaboratively write on documentation for their projects and teams." Possible alternatives: 0. No namespace at all, the openSUSE community exists at openSUSE.org! We have an entire domain to call our own! Why do we need a namespace? 1. devel: ? Oh, but these teams are not necessarily developers 2. teams: ? Erm, no because then it would be teams:Kernel_git which makes no sense 3. community: ? Maybe, but community:Java packaging cookbook looks strange 4. project: ? This is my second choice as nearly all of the links on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project are to the openSUSE: namespace... 1-4 have their problems but at least they are not redundant. Lets discuss what problem this openSUSE: namespace is trying to solve and how we can make sane looking URLs on our new wiki. And lets do it fast so we can avoid breaking URLs again. Cheers, Brandon [1] http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Wiki/Concept -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 29 July 2010 20:24:09 Brandon Philips wrote:
Hello All and Everyone-
Today, I wish to talk about redundancy. In particular things that add no new information and are a simple rearrangement of the understood data. In other words: repetitiveness for no-gain at all.
Problem -------
I was trying to point a community member at the Kernel Git page today so they could get involved. But I was baffled to find it gone. Searching a bit I ended up finding it at this URL:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Kernel_git
Two openSUSE's in one URL, what a deal! Without that openSUSE: namespace I might have thought I was going to grab the Ubuntu Kernel Git...
As we are breaking URLs all over with this new wiki anyways can we take a moment and consider the URL monsters we are creating here? Just look at it once again:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Kernel_git
There has got to be something better, lets find a solution. :)
Solution --------
Lets look at the mission statement of the openSUSE: namespace[1]:
"And the openSUSE community's openSUSE: namespace to collaboratively write on documentation for their projects and teams."
http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Namespace "openSUSE - Presentation and working pages of our teams, tools and projects. Everything for the contributors to our project."
Possible alternatives:
0. No namespace at all, the openSUSE community exists at openSUSE.org! We have an entire domain to call our own! Why do we need a namespace?
Breaks separation of content on part that is used to present openSUSE to casual visitors (majority), part used for troubleshooting which is minority, and part for contributors which is even smaller. We absolutely don't want to push information on 1001 problem, collected in last 15 years of SUSE, in eyes of people that clicked on some web link to see what is openSUSE.
1. devel: ? Oh, but these teams are not necessarily developers
Developer as in? Software developer, business developer, community developer, film developer (chemical), etc :) Creating artwork is development. Writing documentation is development. Creating communication infrastructure is development. Developing marketing strategy is ... (right development). In a project that has so many activities as openSUSE reserving word developer to software developers is a bit of disservice to all other development efforts.
2. teams: ? Erm, no because then it would be teams:Kernel_git which makes no sense
It is not only about teams, so clearly no.
3. community: ? Maybe, but community:Java packaging cookbook looks strange
Not strange at all, but it is redundant as well. Of course it is community, not Martians :)
4. project: ? This is my second choice as nearly all of the links on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project are to the openSUSE: namespace...
That is default, but as soon as you choose name for the wiki it will become that name, in our case "openSUSE".
1-4 have their problems but at least they are not redundant.
We had redundancy before. This one will not change much.
Lets discuss what problem this openSUSE: namespace is trying to solve and how we can make sane looking URLs on our new wiki. And lets do it fast so we can avoid breaking URLs again.
Too late for not breaking anything :) There is already a lot of internal links that should be changed in case that we want something different as a project namespace.
Cheers,
Brandon
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 02:56:38 -0500 Rajko M. wrote: Hi,
Breaks separation of content on part that is used to present openSUSE to casual visitors (majority), part used for troubleshooting which is minority, and part for contributors which is even smaller.
just a side question (I do not whish to hijack this thread): Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority? -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, Technical Writer, Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.opensuse.org/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
http://old-en.opensuse.org/Special:PopularPages Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:16:46 +0200 Henne Vogelsang wrote: Hi,
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
that tells me quite the opposite. If you look a bit further than the start page and the download pages (those are visited by everyone) the vast majority of our visitors are _not_ casual visitors but users looking for troubleshooting and support. -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, Technical Writer, Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.opensuse.org/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 30/07/10 16:59, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:16:46 +0200 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
that tells me quite the opposite. If you look a bit further than the start page and the download pages (those are visited by everyone) the vast majority of our visitors are _not_ casual visitors but users looking for troubleshooting and support.
Yes. Why are *not* all the best rated of those articles on these list above to find in the new wiki at least with the default settings of the default search engine noways? Look at the (*not to be found*) members of that list over 1, 000, 000 views: " #01 Welcome to openSUSE.org (19,677,412 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org redirects to: http://en.opensuse.org/Main_Page #02 *Download (9,431,860 views)* http://old-en.opensuse.org/Download http://en.opensuse.org/Download (DELETED 10:05, 30 April 2010) http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?search=Download&ns0=1&ns102=1&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&fulltext=Search gives: # Portal:11.2/Topics # YaST Online Update # Concepts # Package repositories # Lifetime # Amarok # Automatic cover art download using Amazon services [...] #03 *Released version (6,093,058 views)* http://old-en.opensuse.org/Released_version http://en.opensuse.org/Released_version (DELETED 07:59, 30 April 2010) http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Search/Released_version gives: # Portal:11.2/Intro # Portal:Factory/Intro # StarOffice # Frozen Bubble # VLC media player [...] #04 Additional package repositories (3,648,566 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/Additional_package_repositories http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_package_repositories #05 Documentation (2,506,162 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/Documentation http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Documentation #06 Development version *(1,649,929 views)* http://old-en.opensuse.org/Development_version moved to http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory But: *http://en.opensuse.org/Development_version exits not* But at least: http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Search/Development_version gives: # Portal:Development/Topics # Portal:Factory/Intro #07 *Download help (1,443,793 views)* http://old-en.opensuse.org/Download_help has been pasted to http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Download_help http://en.opensuse.org/Download_help *(DELETED 07:50, 30 April 2010)* http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Search/Download_help gives: # Portal:11.2/Topics # YaST Online Update # Concepts # Package repositories # Lifetime [...] #08 Package repositories (1,422,588 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/Package_repositories http://en.opensuse.org/Package_repositories #09 Hardware (1,317,611 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/Hardware http://en.opensuse.org/Hardware redirects to http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Hardware #10 *Installation (1,256,545 views)* http://old-en.opensuse.org/Installation http://en.opensuse.org/Installation is empty http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Search/Installation gives: # Compiz Fusion # Portal:Development/Intro # Portal:Development/Topics # YaST Software Management [...] #11 Roadmap (1,227,558 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/Roadmap http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap #12 NVIDIA (1,141,548 views) http://old-en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA http://en.opensuse.org/NVIDIA is empty and http://en.opensuse.org/Nvidia now redirects to an clone but is on the way *to be deleted as well:* http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Redirects_to_delete http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Nvidia&diff=19718&oldid=18314 #13 *Project Overview (1,021,143 views)* http://old-en.opensuse.org/Project_Overview http://en.opensuse.org/Project_Overview is empty http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Search/Project_Overview gives: # Concepts # Portal:How to participate/Topics # GUI # SVG # SynCE [...] See also: http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Redirects_to_stay Regards pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 30 July 2010 09:59:55 Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:16:46 +0200 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
that tells me quite the opposite. If you look a bit further than the start page and the download pages (those are visited by everyone) the vast majority of our visitors are _not_ casual visitors but users looking for troubleshooting and support.
It seems that it is time for some real numbers, because I have the same feeling as Henne looking at Coolo statistics and Popular pages, as only publicly available data . So far I know no one made any procedure and supporting tool that will help us in this respect. What we need is grep from real server logs that we can count in various ways. 1) What page is asked for? 2) What is served? 3) Who is referrer? (anything else) We need this for en.o.o, wiki.o.o, old-en.o.o . Also, we need historic data, but I'm not sure right now how far we should go. Probably not more then release of the oldest supported openSUSE release. Matthew can you help us with this? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:52:59 -0500 Rajko M. wrote: Hi,
What we need is grep from real server logs that we can count in various ways. 1) What page is asked for? 2) What is served? 3) Who is referrer? (anything else)
We need this for en.o.o, wiki.o.o, old-en.o.o . Also, we need historic data, but I'm not sure right now how far we should go. Probably not more then release of the oldest supported openSUSE release.
aj and michl have this data. -- Regards Frank Frank Sundermeyer, Technical Writer, Documentation SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg Tel: +49-911-74053-0, Fax: +49-911-7417755; http://www.opensuse.org/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Reality is always controlled by the people who are most insane" Dogbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 02 August 2010 13:28:38 Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:52:59 -0500 Rajko M. wrote:
Hi,
What we need is grep from real server logs that we can count in various ways. 1) What page is asked for? 2) What is served? 3) Who is referrer? (anything else)
We need this for en.o.o, wiki.o.o, old-en.o.o . Also, we need historic data, but I'm not sure right now how far we should go. Probably not more then release of the oldest supported openSUSE release.
aj and michl have this data.
Yes, I have it - Rajko, just tell me exactly what you need and I'll send the data... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Monday 02 August 2010 06:42:46 Andreas Jaeger wrote: ...
What we need is grep from real server logs that we can count in various ways. 1) What page is asked for? 2) What is served? 3) Who is referrer? (anything else)
We need this for en.o.o, wiki.o.o, old-en.o.o . Also, we need historic data, but I'm not sure right now how far we should go. Probably not more then release of the oldest supported openSUSE release.
Yes, I have it - Rajko, just tell me exactly what you need and I'll send the data...
I was looking for something that can be used to see what pages users look for, who are those users, who sends them to the wiki, and what is served, actual page or http://en.opensuse.org/MediaWiki:Noarticletext . Mining trough that would help to determine real user interests and probably web user profiles. The publicly available information is insufficient for that http://en.opensuse.org/Special:PopularPages . We can see that page was accessed, but nothing more. If we talk about server logs my mail box can be too small even for grepped and compressed data, on the other hand I don't know much what is possible with Google Analytics. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 07/30/2010 04:59 PM, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:16:46 +0200 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
that tells me quite the opposite.
Its data. Its up for interpretation :)
If you look a bit further than the start page and the download pages (those are visited by everyone) the vast majority of our visitors are _not_ casual visitors but users looking for troubleshooting and support.
Which is something our supporters need to get a grip on to make their day to day information passing easier. open-slx which does this professionally already asked for this and people that _really_ support users out there too. And I don't mean the occasional answering of a question but the core people of the forums, mailinglists and irc channels who give 90% of the solutions. So we want to try to bring the SDB back as THE place where you go if you have a problem or if you want to document the solution for a problem. This takes the support stuff out of this datachunk. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 15:16 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
Does that show us the problem namespaces are trying to solve? The goal was to solve the issue of casual visitors using the wiki search and finding information that isn't user oriented documentation, right? So, won't we need data on _how_ users enter those pages to get the full picture? e.g. Are they coming from Google, direct links, etc. Do we have that information? Cheers, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 30/07/10 17:27, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 15:16 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
Does that show us the problem namespaces are trying to solve?
The goal was to solve the issue of casual visitors using the wiki search and finding information that isn't user oriented documentation, right?
So, won't we need data on _how_ users enter those pages to get the full picture? e.g. Are they coming from Google, direct links, etc. Do we have that information?
Maybe we can also presume that the search words (and the issues behind them) that the users of the forums use can give us a hint, too? "These are the 70 most-searched-for thread tags 11.2 acpi akonadi ati audio automount bluetooth boot broadcom codecs-kde.ymp compiz crash dell driver fglrx firefox firewall font gnome grub install installation intel itunes iwlagn java kaffeine kernel kivio knetworkmanager laptop linksys logitech mksusebootdisk mouse multimedia network networkmanager nvidia opensuse 11.2 opensuse 11.2 amarok opensuse11.3 prepare_preload printer python radeon raid realtek repository rpm samba sound squid steam 27% bug update tablet thinkpad toshiba touchpad touchscreen transparent usb virtualbox vmware webcam wifi wine wireless xen xrdp yast" (http://forums.opensuse.org/search.php) Regards pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 07/30/2010 05:27 PM, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 15:16 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
Does that show us the problem namespaces are trying to solve?
The goal was to solve the issue of casual visitors using the wiki search and finding information that isn't user oriented documentation, right?
The goal was to serve visitors better (more fitting), high quality content. So we separated the content by 3 user groups (following the bento concept) into namespaces * Users (main) * Contributor (opensuse) * Community (help) and made one the default (Users) because we believe that this is the largest group that gets served by the wiki. We then concentrated on standardization with templates (page, messages, media) and a standardized navigation with Portals, Navbars and Categories. The last aspect of the whole transition is the QA check for the most important namespaces with the FlaggedRevs extension that allows a nice mixture of accepting contributions by default and reviewing them. The search is one topic of the whole transition. Its was never the goal. You can read all this on Portal:Wiki which is linked from the Main page :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 12:29 Mon 02 Aug 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 07/30/2010 05:27 PM, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 15:16 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
Does that show us the problem namespaces are trying to solve?
The goal was to solve the issue of casual visitors using the wiki search and finding information that isn't user oriented documentation, right?
The goal was to serve visitors better (more fitting), high quality content.
This can be done by making the content higher quality instead of hiding the contributor pages in namespaces. It feels as if we are brushing clutter under a namespace rug. To give an example currently we have a number of pages that are all disconnected for the Kernel: openSUSE:Bugreport kernel openSUSE:Kernel git SDB:Kernel of the day Instead of this mess of namespaces and information I reorganized it all into a single page on http://en.opensuse.org/Kernel with nicely organized sections drilling down from what a Kernel is to how to use the openSUSE kernel git. This avoids the namespaces, includes useful "user documentation" and doesn't draw a hard line between "users" and "contributors".
So we separated the content by 3 user groups (following the bento concept) into namespaces
* Users (main) * Contributor (opensuse)
As you show here openSUSE: is actually the namespace for contributors. Perhaps rename openSUSE: to contrib: or contributor:. Removing namespaces would be better but this change will suggest who the namespace is used by. You make it clear right here that the openSUSE: namespace isn't working by having to define the namespace use in parenthesis. Not everyone is going to read the namespace rules and making discoverable norms is part of building a community that follows the rules.
* Community (help)
Huh, I don't get this one at all.
The search is one topic of the whole transition. Its was never the goal.
It seems to be the only user visible change due to this whole namespace mess though. That and breaking tons of URLs.
You can read all this on Portal:Wiki which is linked from the Main page :)
I tried but you broke the URL! (Sidebar -> Help -> Create a page)! http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Wiki/Concept Cheers, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 03.08.2010 00:42, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 12:29 Mon 02 Aug 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 07/30/2010 05:27 PM, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 15:16 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 30.07.2010 15:00, Frank Sundermeyer wrote:
Maybe I have missed it during the endless namespace discussions, but do we have proof that the "casual visitors" are indeed the majority?
Does that show us the problem namespaces are trying to solve?
The goal was to solve the issue of casual visitors using the wiki search and finding information that isn't user oriented documentation, right?
The goal was to serve visitors better (more fitting), high quality content.
This can be done by making the content higher quality instead of hiding the contributor pages in namespaces. It feels as if we are brushing clutter under a namespace rug.
So contributor pages are by definition not high quality? I don't follow your reasoning sorry. I'm talking about all the content that is in the wiki.
To give an example currently we have a number of pages that are all disconnected for the Kernel:
openSUSE:Bugreport kernel openSUSE:Kernel git SDB:Kernel of the day
Instead of this mess of namespaces and information I reorganized it all into a single page on http://en.opensuse.org/Kernel with nicely organized sections drilling down from what a Kernel is to how to use the openSUSE kernel git.
And now you perfectly ignored the casual consumer of the distribution who just needs and explanation about this "Kernel" thing he keeps hearing about and re-invented the wheel that we already invented with the Portal. Portals are the places where you would link all the pages about the Kernel together and where you would give an introduction about all the aspects of the Kernel.
This avoids the namespaces, includes useful "user documentation" and doesn't draw a hard line between "users" and "contributors".
Which is one thing we explicitly want.
So we separated the content by 3 user groups (following the bento concept) into namespaces
* Users (main) * Contributor (opensuse)
As you show here openSUSE: is actually the namespace for contributors.
Perhaps rename openSUSE: to contrib: or contributor:.
Why? And more importantly: Why now? We are not exactly in a phase in this project where we can easily rename a namespace. This is a major hassle and what advantage does it bring except the removing the redundancy of the word openSUSE? I'm sorry but this is just not enough gain to throw over the whole concept we worked on and discussed for months.
Removing namespaces would be better but this change will suggest who the namespace is used by. You make it clear right here that the openSUSE: namespace isn't working by having to define the namespace use in parenthesis.
Might be that this would be better but we had an argument about this last year and the outcome is what we have now.
Not everyone is going to read the namespace rules and making discoverable norms is part of building a community that follows the rules.
Not everybody needs to. People that want to contribute significantly to the wiki have to. Everybody else does not need to care about it :)
* Community (help)
Huh, I don't get this one at all.
This is something we also did wrong in the old layout. The wiki is a tool people use to contribute to openSUSE. There are people maintaining the wiki, the community around the wiki. They need their space to organize and document how hey work on/with the tool wiki. meta-documentation, that's why it is the Help: namespace.
The search is one topic of the whole transition. Its was never the goal.
It seems to be the only user visible change due to this whole namespace mess though. That and breaking tons of URLs.
Thanks for neglecting all the hard work we have put into structure, layout, looks, standardization, content review, new content, navigation, maintainability, sustainability, categorization, extensions, etc. etc. :-/ Sure, we worked a year on breaking the search and on introducing a namespace mess. If only we would have asked you in the beginning. I'm really amazed on how everybody thinks he can treat us, people that did/do the work, like idiots. Thanks! Really!
You can read all this on Portal:Wiki which is linked from the Main page :)
I tried but you broke the URL! (Sidebar -> Help -> Create a page)!
OMG I'm not perfect! Please don't tell anyone! Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hello list-mates! This looks to be like becoming (again) an unproductive discussion about things in general without getting real things very much better. My personal opinion: Getting offended/aggressive/cynical (or letting that be shown to openly;-)) will not help anyone. What I personally would like to see: - an introducing and defining page/article about the kernel and the suse kernel versions - some more information about the (differences of the) "openSUSE kernel versions" - maybe an article about the software and the social thing(s) "git" in general - and this both/tree may help me to understand the old (openSUSE) kernel git article better? Due to my profession I have personally no problem with a long text (even if I may not understand all of it). But if I think just a bit of marketing issues/caring for some of the readers not experienced with Linux (especially with the kernel but also not with linux kernel based operating system at all): - beginners may be rejected by long articles - many technical terms in an article may discourage a beginner especially if they are not explained in the article itself or/and with a link to a defining/more explaining article - some people may be also discouraged if they do not understand all of an articles content. Maybe Rajko can confirm or disprove (or make more or less presumably) these theses with some references out of his web marketing books. And I would like if the members of the wiki-admin club and the wiki-team would act a bit more like that themselves, example: - terminal/console: http://en.opensuse.org/Terminal (an article mainly populated with bash commands) http://en.opensuse.org/Console (empty even the redirect is deleted) http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:What_is_a_console Also I do not like very much repeatedly/constantly moving content in and out of different namespaches especially if redirects get deleted afterwards and it get difficult for any user or search machine robot to find the same content at all. What about: - creating Portal:Kernel - making Brandon the responsible person for that portal - let him answer the discussion page questions concerning that portal and the pages linked form that - if an introducing article would be not easy to understand he will have the fun of it - giving Brandon editor rights so he can mark sighed (or undo) any edits on/in those articles Have a lot of fun (or at least less frustration) pistazienfresser P. S.: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/news/tech-news/443566-kernel-linux-2-6-35... -- - openSUSE 11.2 with GNOME 2.28.2 (or KDE 4.3.5) and Kernel Linux 2.6.31.12-0.2-pae (or default, Ubuntu 10.4 LTS 'lucid' 2.6.33-22-genetic, MS Win XP) - Samsung X20 Pentium M 740 (1730 MHz) Intel 915GM 1400x1050 - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 13:23 Tue 03 Aug 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 03.08.2010 00:42, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 12:29 Mon 02 Aug 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 07/30/2010 05:27 PM, Brandon Philips wrote: Instead of this mess of namespaces and information I reorganized it all into a single page on http://en.opensuse.org/Kernel with nicely organized sections drilling down from what a Kernel is to how to use the openSUSE kernel git.
And now you perfectly ignored the casual consumer of the distribution who just needs and explanation about this "Kernel" thing he keeps hearing about
But, I wrote a user level intro at the top of the page which gives a casual consumer an explanation. Did you read the intro?
and re-invented the wheel that we already invented with the Portal. Portals are the places where you would link all the pages about the Kernel together and where you would give an introduction about all the aspects of the Kernel.
What are the advantages of a Portal/box model compared to a single page with sections? I have read the Help:Portal and Help:Concept pages. The one possible advantage suggested in those pages is that Portals can be automatically generated. But, Portal:Distribution and Portal:Project look manually generated.
This avoids the namespaces, includes useful "user documentation" and doesn't draw a hard line between "users" and "contributors".
Which is one thing we explicitly want.
How do we draw a consistent line? I moved from being a user to a developer by getting in over my head little by little. Exposing someone to new information by serendipity is OK. And how does a Portal solve this issue?
Perhaps rename openSUSE: to contrib: or contributor:.
Why? And more importantly: Why now?
It is redundant and thus adds no self-discoverable information. That was my thesis when I started this thread.
We are not exactly in a phase in this project where we can easily rename a namespace.
The implementation is trivial: a mod_rewrite rule can fix this in one line. Or a script/bot could be written. Is there the will to change it though?
This is a major hassle and what advantage does it bring except the removing the redundancy of the word openSUSE? I'm sorry but this is just not enough gain to throw over the whole concept we worked on and discussed for months.
Did an announcement of this discussion go out to opensuse-announce? Could you send me the archive URL? Perhaps my mailer dropped it. In general I wouldn't care but the output of this discussion broke URLs I use everyday in bugs and email.
Not everyone is going to read the namespace rules and making discoverable norms is part of building a community that follows the rules.
Not everybody needs to. People that want to contribute significantly to the wiki have to. Everybody else does not need to care about it :)
I don't have to contribute to the Wiki. I could just throw a README.Kernel in our kernel-source.git instead. It would take less time, I would have a URL I could count on and a simple document format I could quickly edit. I want to do the right thing by using the wiki.
The search is one topic of the whole transition. Its was never the goal.
It seems to be the only user visible change due to this whole namespace mess though. That and breaking tons of URLs.
Thanks for neglecting all the hard work we have put into structure, layout, looks, standardization, content review, new content, navigation, maintainability, sustainability, categorization, extensions, etc. etc. :-/
Sure, we worked a year on breaking the search and on introducing a namespace mess. If only we would have asked you in the beginning. I'm really amazed on how everybody thinks he can treat us, people that did/do the work, like idiots. Thanks! Really!
I apologize if I my emails are abrasive, it was not my intention, but I will try to do better. I understand that a lot of hard work went into the new wiki. And it does look to be a good step forward. But, the initial launch of any project is going to have bugs and quirks. Discussing those bugs and quriks and possible solutions is part of the process.
You can read all this on Portal:Wiki which is linked from the Main page :)
I tried but you broke the URL! (Sidebar -> Help -> Create a page)!
OMG I'm not perfect! Please don't tell anyone!
I'm not perfect either. But, I brought this up as an example of the chaos all of these moves and namespace changes are causing. Is there a mediawiki special page that shows all incoming internal links to a page? Maybe a plugin could be written/installed to warn on page moves if there are existing internal links so that the mover puts up a REDIRECT. Thanks, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:29:45 Brandon Philips wrote: ...
What are the advantages of a Portal/box model compared to a single page with sections?
I have read the Help:Portal and Help:Concept pages. The one possible advantage suggested in those pages is that Portals can be automatically generated. But, Portal:Distribution and Portal:Project look manually generated.
Advantage? Name. It is self explanatory that portal in entry point to the topic that stands after colon. Namespace is used so that we can direct traffic (search) where we want without much hassle. Despite outcry for links and search, old wiki was mess and it was hard to find anything there. If some article wasn't in bookmarks it did not exist. There is long list of problems: unguessable titles, lack of links in articles, almost no use of categories, no common style, no maintainers to articles, etc. Portals are not entirely automatically created. Navigation there is created from categories, so it is updated as soon as some article is added to category. There is template that new contributors can use to get basic layout. The rest is up to their needs, we provide lego pieces they can combine it the way that suits their needs. It is missing explanation what layout is preferred and why, but that will come. ...
How do we draw a consistent line?
One way is that wiki editors and article maintainers must together build criteria that will answer your question. There is no given way by some third party, it is a consent what should be presented to the user. There are some rules how to adapt article for readers on the web ( http://useit.com ), but when they are applied then content is all by article author.
I moved from being a user to a developer by getting in over my head little by little. Exposing someone to new information by serendipity is OK.
And how does a Portal solve this issue?
You have ability to give beginners directions (but that you can do that in any article), what Portal makes different is the name. Users with some experience with Wikipedia, will expect general overview of the topic as that what they know from there. ...
It is redundant and thus adds no self-discoverable information. That was my thesis when I started this thread. ... Is there the will to change it though?
Would you change name when you see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Flying_monkeys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board openSUSE: is our meta namespace. We can discuss do we need some better naming for certain topics, or do we need another namespace to resolve funny combinations of openSUSE + something else, but redundancy per se is not a reason to change name. ...
Did an announcement of this discussion go out to opensuse-announce? Could you send me the archive URL? Perhaps my mailer dropped it.
http://old-en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org#New_wiki_on_the_way That should be enough :)
In general I wouldn't care but the output of this discussion broke URLs I use everyday in bugs and email.
I agree that there is a breakage, but we got choice: * use from now on http://wiki.opensuse.org and leave en.o.o where it was, using existing pages there as redirects to the wiki.o.o. Set en.o.o in read only mode and look what consequences that will bring. Probably change "Discover it" to message that wiki.o.o is a new wiki, with hope that they will see it. It would ruin lang.opensuse.org concept for sure which some did not like. It will create problem with casual visitors hitting dysfunctional wiki with old articles that no one maintained, and go away. There would probably more silent problems that no one will be aware as wiki team would look at a new wiki. * or move as it was done and fix problems on the go. Big pain for everybody, but some (majority?) problems are fixable if everybody want that and cooperate. It was choose your poison decision. ...
I don't have to contribute to the Wiki. I could just throw a README.Kernel in our kernel-source.git instead. It would take less time, I would have a URL I could count on and a simple document format I could quickly edit.
And not many will ever see that README.
I want to do the right thing by using the wiki.
Thank you.
... I apologize if I my emails are abrasive, it was not my intention, but I will try to do better.
I understand that a lot of hard work went into the new wiki. And it does look to be a good step forward. But, the initial launch of any project is going to have bugs and quirks. Discussing those bugs and quriks and possible solutions is part of the process.
Sure, although you overestimate our free time that we can put in the wiki, so we have to create something that we can handle. Defending your position is fine, but consider that we spent some time thinking and discussing. Is rsult the best, probably no, but with few people interested in discussion that is the best we came up with. Now when it is public everybody and his mother find better ways, but it is kind of late. ...
Is there a mediawiki special page that shows all incoming internal links to a page? Maybe a plugin could be written/installed to warn on page moves if there are existing internal links so that the mover puts up a REDIRECT.
Page move does put redirect automatically. Problem is that using old titles as redirects should be minimized otherwise we will have very soon all nice separation of content bypassed and search will give same useless results as it did in the old wiki. The special page that will list all that links to article is under link in toolbox "What links here" available on almost each wiki page. ***** article Kernel 1 ***** For instance: http://en.opensuse.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Kernel * openSUSE:Kernel git (redirect page) (← links) * Kernel git (redirect page) (← links) * Kernel (← links) * SDB:Kernel of the day (redirect page) (← links) * Kernel (← links) Replacing: [[Kernel#openSUSE_Kernel_Git|openSUSE Kernel Git]] with: [[#openSUSE_Kernel_Git|openSUSE Kernel Git]] (this is in-page reference) Replacing: [[openSUSE:Kernel_git|Kernel Git]] with: [[#openSUSE_Kernel_Git|Kernel Git]] and removing one double redirect: was: Kernel git --> openSUSE:Kernel git < this is also redirect page is: Kernel git --> Kernel http://en.opensuse.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Kernel shows now: * openSUSE:Kernel git (redirect page) (← links) * SDB:Kernel of the day (redirect page) (← links) * Kernel git (redirect page) (← links) which is pretty normal, not a Gordian knot of self references and redirects. And that is one of things that would happen if we "just" fixed old wiki. It was hard to maintain due to existing redirects, and we will create many more. I tried to fix some stuff in Standards and YaST and gave up (not once). Now we have new wiki, which is pretty clean and we have chance to think what titles we want to give to articles, so that we don't have to introduce redirects. ***** article Kernel 2 ***** Kernel is a good page, but too long for web readers (casual readers). It is good for casual readers up to "openSUSE Kernel of the Day". After that is too technical for them and kind of short as introduction to hacking. It is a problem to present information that requires some troubleshooting knowledge to casual reader without warning and explained prerequisites: zypper install -r KOTD kernel-default Someone can try that. Copy'n'paste is one of the first actions that people learn, far before they know how to undo kernel that doesn't boot. It is much more user friendly to keep KOTD usage in separate article that is labeled as for advanced users and keep links to basic boot troubleshooting on top of the article in section Prerequisites. That is another point to keep basic introduction in Main, or Portal (depends on size), and advanced in SDB. The openSUSE is really meant to keep meta information, not technical articles, but as you noticed we: 1) learning on the go, 2) don't have enough time to take care of each article. Someone with more "writing for the web" experience can give you more specific advices, I can only point to: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9710a.html and in "Learn more" section: http://www.useit.com/eyetracking/ For more reading on usability of web pages and more: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/ -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 21:52 Tue 03 Aug 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:29:45 Brandon Philips wrote: ...
What are the advantages of a Portal/box model compared to a single page with sections?
I have read the Help:Portal and Help:Concept pages. The one possible advantage suggested in those pages is that Portals can be automatically generated. But, Portal:Distribution and Portal:Project look manually generated.
It is self explanatory that portal in entry point to the topic that stands after colon. Namespace is used so that we can direct traffic (search) where we want without much hassle.
Does using a Portal template require appending a Portal: namespace? What advantage does that bring? Can't you just search by all pages using the template just as easily?
Despite outcry for links and search, old wiki was mess and it was hard to find anything there. If some article wasn't in bookmarks it did not exist. There is long list of problems: unguessable titles, lack of links in articles, almost no use of categories, no common style, no maintainers to articles, etc.
I agree alot of pages on the Wiki were a mess, yes, but others like the Kernel pages were fine.
Portals are not entirely automatically created. Navigation there is created from categories, so it is updated as soon as some article is added to category. There is template that new contributors can use to get basic layout. The rest is up to their needs, we provide lego pieces they can combine it the way that suits their needs.
It is missing explanation what layout is preferred and why, but that will come.
Ok, at this point I don't need new lego pieces on the Kernel page. I will wait until I see how other Portals get assembled before converting to a Portal layout.
I moved from being a user to a developer by getting in over my head little by little. Exposing someone to new information by serendipity is OK.
And how does a Portal solve this issue?
You have ability to give beginners directions (but that you can do that in any article), what Portal makes different is the name. Users with some experience with Wikipedia, will expect general overview of the topic as that what they know from there.
I have never seen a Portal: Wikipedia article. Do you have an example? Most of the technical articles I have read follow the same flow: overview, define terms, technical details. Just as I am trying to do with the Kernel page. Examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color
It is redundant and thus adds no self-discoverable information. That was my thesis when I started this thread. ... Is there the will to change it though?
Would you change name when you see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Flying_monkeys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:New_Zealand_Wikipedians'_notice_board
This namespace looks to contain tools and pages used by the community of people similar to the "openSUSE wiki team". It would be fine if the openSUSE: namespace was used for these types of meta-wiki pages. And... it seems we agree on that, quote from later in this email:
That is another point to keep basic introduction in Main, or Portal (depends on size), and advanced in SDB. The openSUSE is really meant to keep meta information, not technical articles, but as you noticed we: 1) learning on the go, 2) don't have enough time to take care of each article.
Lets agree that the openSUSE namespace should not have development pages like the Kernel explanation. :) SDB is a poor name for things like the Kernel git article because it has nothing to do with support. The wiki and all service on opensuse.org are for all openSUSE people including users, support people, marketers, developers and so on. Creating namespaces that try to divide up these often very fuzzy lines is difficult and can create a ping-pong effect for some information that sits on the fuzzy line.
Did an announcement of this discussion go out to opensuse-announce? Could you send me the archive URL? Perhaps my mailer dropped it.
http://old-en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org#New_wiki_on_the_way That should be enough :)
It wasn't. :( Please announce major changes on announce in the future.
I don't have to contribute to the Wiki. I could just throw a README.Kernel in our kernel-source.git instead. It would take less time, I would have a URL I could count on and a simple document format I could quickly edit.
And not many will ever see that README.
That isn't true. The Kernel page URL is pasted into emails and bugs several times a day. The people that need this information aren't discovering the page on their own and are following a link I and other Kernel team members provide. Where the information is housed doesn't matter, I just need to count on it being there in the format I expect. Obviously, I want it to be housed on the Wiki as that brings some advantages.
Now when it is public everybody and his mother find better ways, but it is kind of late.
It is never too late to fix something. Lets not be self-defeating.
Is there a mediawiki special page that shows all incoming internal links to a page? Maybe a plugin could be written/installed to warn on page moves if there are existing internal links so that the mover puts up a REDIRECT.
Page move does put redirect automatically. Problem is that using old titles as redirects should be minimized otherwise we will have very soon all nice separation of content bypassed and search will give same useless results as it did in the old wiki.
But the user deleting the REDIRECT should have a warning of what he will break... this mistake seems very common on the new wiki.
Kernel is a good page, but too long for web readers (casual readers).
What? A webpage that is _too_ long? The user has full control over the scroll bar. I have never complained about a Wikipedia page that provides me with too much information. I skim, read the bits I need, and ignore the rest.
It is good for casual readers up to "openSUSE Kernel of the Day". After that is too technical for them and kind of short as introduction to hacking.
Then they stop reading, no one gets hurt. Curious users will stumble through and perhaps learn something. Our goal should not be to design a safety bubble for users on the wiki. Warning them of dangers is reasonable.
It is a problem to present information that requires some troubleshooting knowledge to casual reader without warning and explained prerequisites: zypper install -r KOTD kernel-default Someone can try that. Copy'n'paste is one of the first actions that people learn, far before they know how to undo kernel that doesn't boot.
Good point, I will add a warning to those instructions. But, if KOTD doesn't boot I want to hear about it! The KOTD today is the openSUSE Kernel of the future. Thanks, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 04/08/10 18:22, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 21:52 Tue 03 Aug 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:29:45 Brandon Philips wrote: ... [...]
You have ability to give beginners directions (but that you can do that in any article), what Portal makes different is the name. Users with some experience with Wikipedia, will expect general overview of the topic as that what they know from there. Do you really think, the article [[Kernel]] is now an "overview"?
I have never seen a Portal: Wikipedia article. Do you have an example?
For a portal or for an article? The creation (and maintenance) of [[Portal:Kernel]] does not mean there should not be a (basic and defining) article [[Kernel]], too. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Free_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Computer_Science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_science ... [...]
Is there a mediawiki special page that shows all incoming internal links to a page? Maybe a plugin could be written/installed to warn on page moves if there are existing internal links so that the mover puts up a REDIRECT.
Page move does put redirect automatically.
Since when not anymore?
Problem is that using old titles as redirects should be minimized otherwise we will have very soon all nice separation of content bypassed and search will give same useless results as it did in the old wiki. As the default search has not the box "[ ] List redirects" checked by default I strongly doubt that thesis. For falsification you (pl.) may log out of the wiki and give your browser: http://wiki.opensuse.org/Special:Search/bug
Not listed on the output list in my browser are: http://wiki.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Submitting_Bug_Reports&redirect=no http://wiki.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Bug_Reporting_FAQ&redirect=no http://wiki.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Submit_a_Bug&redirect=no [...] Have a lot of fun (and a bit of understanding each other) pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE 11.2 with GNOME 2.28.2 (or KDE 4.3.5) and Kernel Linux 2.6.31.12-0.2-pae (or default, Ubuntu 10.4 LTS 'lucid' 2.6.33-22-genetic, MS Win XP) - Samsung X20 Pentium M 740 (1730 MHz) Intel 915GM 1400x1050 - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 19:18 Wed 04 Aug 2010, pistazienfresser (see profile) wrote:
On 04/08/10 18:22, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 21:52 Tue 03 Aug 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:29:45 Brandon Philips wrote: ... [...]
You have ability to give beginners directions (but that you can do that in any article), what Portal makes different is the name. Users with some experience with Wikipedia, will expect general overview of the topic as that what they know from there. Do you really think, the article [[Kernel]] is now an "overview"?
I have never seen a Portal: Wikipedia article. Do you have an example? For a portal or for an article?
Ah, I had no idea these existed, I guess they must be far more popular in Europe the US because I have never seen anyone use one before. This might explain why :) "Portals originated in the Polish and German Wikipedias" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Portal#What_are_portals.3F
The creation (and maintenance) of [[Portal:Kernel]] does not mean there should not be a (basic and defining) article [[Kernel]], too.
I see that they provide news, and featured articles, etc. That is a lot of work to maintain and I don't want to do it. I tried creating a Portal:Kernel but ran out of ideas of what it would be useful for. Cheers, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 04 August 2010 13:32:50 Brandon Philips wrote:
I see that they provide news, and featured articles, etc. That is a lot of work to maintain and I don't want to do it. I tried creating a Portal:Kernel but ran out of ideas of what it would be useful for.
Featured article can be one of 5 that you put in appropriate subpages, that will pop up randomly on every page reload. Right now it is not very used feature, as (I suspect) people don't know that we have that. {{Random portal component|max=5|header= |footer= | subpage= }} http://en.opensuse.org/Template:Random_portal_component Complete list of extensions that are installed in our wiki is http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Version The only one that is installed, but not in that list is: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EventCountdown I rearranged http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Kernel a bit. First reason "kernel-source commits" had long lines. Second, portal was isolated from other portals. The list of other portals is way too long, but I have to find time to put some of titles in subcategories. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 04/08/10 20:32, Brandon Philips wrote:
I tried creating a Portal:Kernel Thanks a lot! but ran out of ideas of what it would be useful for. I have to admit that I will be not very good in contributing knowledge to kernel related wiki articles and the kernel portal but some questions/ideas I posted on the according discussion pages: http://wiki.opensuse.org/Portal_Talk:Kernel
And maybe you, Brandon, could write a bit about the kernel article, the kernel portal in the kernel mailing list? ;-) Or are the only one in the openSUSE who knows about kernel issues and are willing and able to share a bit of your knowledge with the common people? /;-) Have a lot of fun pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE 11.2 with GNOME 2.28.2 (or KDE 4.3.5) and Kernel Linux 2.6.31.12-0.2-pae (or default, Ubuntu 10.4 LTS 'lucid' 2.6.33-24-genetic, MS Win XP) - Samsung X20 Pentium M 740 (1730 MHz) Intel 915GM 1400x1050 - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:06 PM, pistazienfresser (see profile) <pistazienfresser@gmx.de> wrote:
On 04/08/10 20:32, Brandon Philips wrote:
I tried creating a Portal:Kernel Thanks a lot! but ran out of ideas of what it would be useful for. I have to admit that I will be not very good in contributing knowledge to kernel related wiki articles and the kernel portal but some questions/ideas I posted on the according discussion pages: http://wiki.opensuse.org/Portal_Talk:Kernel
And maybe you, Brandon, could write a bit about the kernel article, the kernel portal in the kernel mailing list? ;-) Or are the only one in the openSUSE who knows about kernel issues and are willing and able to share a bit of your knowledge with the common people? /;-)
Have a lot of fun pistazienfresser
Hi there, Sorry that I haven't followed the whole thread about the Kernel article, but I guess it is planned that the current article should be splitted to different pages, right? The current Portal:Kernel (which looks really good) just redirect to different section of the same wiki page, not separating general content from howto-install kodt and bug report explanation. I guess a major portion of the article would fit better in the SDB. Thus, I actually added the "merge" tag to Portal:Kernel (which redirect everything to this page.. kind of duplicate actually). I can help to rearrange the article if needed (when I could find some free time). Please just don't remove the tag so I won't forget it later. Regards, R. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hey,
Sorry that I haven't followed the whole thread about the Kernel article, but I guess it is planned that the current article should be splitted to different pages, right? The current Portal:Kernel (which looks really good) just redirect to different section of the same wiki page, not separating general content from howto-install kodt and bug report explanation. I guess a major portion of the article would fit better in the SDB.
Thus, I actually added the "merge" tag to Portal:Kernel (which redirect everything to this page.. kind of duplicate actually). I can help to rearrange the article if needed (when I could find some free time). Please just don't remove the tag so I won't forget it later.
I splitted it again, added a navbar and categorized everything. The only thing i need help with is [[openSUSE:Kernel_team]]. Brandon can you maybe create that page based on the team template? (you can choose it from the drop down menu if you click "create") I don't know too much how you organize your teams regarding opensuse. Thanks :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 04 August 2010 11:22:36 Brandon Philips wrote:
On 21:52 Tue 03 Aug 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:29:45 Brandon Philips wrote: ... ... Does using a Portal template require appending a Portal: namespace? What advantage does that bring? Can't you just search by all pages using the template just as easily?
Template is help to create article and, unless it contains custom search (InputBox) then it has nothing to do with searching help. It is simple text that you can include from drop down menu. Menu is available when you are creating new page. It doesn't show up during edit of existing page.
... I agree alot of pages on the Wiki were a mess, yes, but others like the Kernel pages were fine.
There was much more about kernel then Kernel page, and that was never reviewed by someone in kernel team, and they all weren't in a good shape. http://old-en.opensuse.org/Special:Search?search=kernel
... Ok, at this point I don't need new lego pieces on the Kernel page. I will wait until I see how other Portals get assembled before converting to a Portal layout. ... I have never seen a Portal: Wikipedia article. Do you have an example?
Pistzienfresser got some :)
... Lets agree that the openSUSE namespace should not have development pages like the Kernel explanation. :)
Agreed. Now how to name the namespace for documentation? :) Whole wiki is documentation. Calling some part DOC: will not help much, we got that confusion before. DEVELOPMENT: is better, but there is not much content for that. Or, maybe there is, but I don't see that? Any other ideas?
SDB is a poor name for things like the Kernel git article because it has nothing to do with support.
Agree to some extent. We should probably look around what naming is used elsewhere.
The wiki and all service on opensuse.org are for all openSUSE people including users, support people, marketers, developers and so on.
Creating namespaces that try to divide up these often very fuzzy lines is difficult and can create a ping-pong effect for some information that sits on the fuzzy line.
The answer on, is it worth to put some effort in that, depends on how many articles are of that kind. Don't forget that you can also tag your articles as another way to sort them. That tags are in a wiki parlance categories. That is another way to group articles that can be in any namespace. http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Category BTW, http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Tag talks about different type of tags. ...
It wasn't. :( Please announce major changes on announce in the future.
I'm not sure about announce list, but there was few times repeated call for participants on any place that came to our mind. ...
And not many will ever see that README.
That isn't true. The Kernel page URL is pasted into emails and bugs several times a day. The people that need this information aren't discovering the page on their own and are following a link I and other Kernel team members provide.
That is good, but it should be better to have it served as part of troubleshooting documentation, so that people can help themselves too.
Obviously, I want it to be housed on the Wiki as that brings some advantages.
Sure, central place, that is easy to edit and every change is available instantly.
Now when it is public everybody and his mother find better ways, but it is kind of late.
It is never too late to fix something. Lets not be self-defeating.
It is not too late, but there is only certain amount of pain that you can inflict before people start running away. We can't do that again right now.
Is there a mediawiki special page that shows all incoming internal links to a page? Maybe a plugin could be written/installed to warn on page moves if there are existing internal links so that the mover puts up a REDIRECT.
Page move does put redirect automatically. Problem is that using old titles as redirects should be minimized otherwise we will have very soon all nice separation of content bypassed and search will give same useless results as it did in the old wiki.
But the user deleting the REDIRECT should have a warning of what he will break... this mistake seems very common on the new wiki.
It is not common, there are redirects that can be deleted and those that can't, or better should not. We need some education on that too.
Kernel is a good page, but too long for web readers (casual readers).
What? A webpage that is _too_ long? The user has full control over the scroll bar. I have never complained about a Wikipedia page that provides me with too much information. I skim, read the bits I need, and ignore the rest.
That is OK if you don't present something to people that may or may not be interested. When you want to wake up interest then lesser is more, but, to write lesser that will attract visitors attention is what people do for living, and takes skills.
It is good for casual readers up to "openSUSE Kernel of the Day". After that is too technical for them and kind of short as introduction to hacking.
... Our goal should not be to design a safety bubble for users on the wiki. Warning them of dangers is reasonable.
Warning is good, but any safety measure that doesn't stand in a way of power users is additional benefit. Separate article for power users is benefit for both, new user and power user. First has safety bubble and second don't have to scroll trough basics to read his geek stuff. We can also have quite technical articles that will explain more details of openSUSE way to handle kernel.
... Copy'n'paste is one of the first actions that people learn, far before they know how to undo kernel that doesn't boot.
Good point, I will add a warning to those instructions.
But, if KOTD doesn't boot I want to hear about it! The KOTD today is the openSUSE Kernel of the future.
Then some article how to handle KOTD would be benefit for users and developers. You will have much more feedback if people will not be afraid to use KOTD. Now that is considered geek stuff, while it actually is not that difficult. One thing that should be done, is to make KOTD alternative, that one can boot only if one selects it. Then online helpers will not have problem to recommend it. PS. It could be actually that way, but I used KOTD only once or twice.
Brandon
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 02:56 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Thursday 29 July 2010 20:24:09 Brandon Philips wrote:
Lets look at the mission statement of the openSUSE: namespace[1]:
"And the openSUSE community's openSUSE: namespace to collaboratively write on documentation for their projects and teams."
http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Namespace "openSUSE - Presentation and working pages of our teams, tools and projects. Everything for the contributors to our project."
That is a more helpful definition. Maybe the namespace should be contrib: then? Or perhaps move all of the user facing documentation to docs:?
Possible alternatives:
0. No namespace at all, the openSUSE community exists at openSUSE.org! We have an entire domain to call our own! Why do we need a namespace?
Breaks separation of content on part that is used to present openSUSE to casual visitors (majority), part used for troubleshooting which is minority, and part for contributors which is even smaller.
As a contributor the namespaces are not helping me and are confusing. How has Wikipedia managed to create a huge and useful repository without namespaces?
We absolutely don't want to push information on 1001 problem, collected in last 15 years of SUSE, in eyes of people that clicked on some web link to see what is openSUSE.
If this was the original problem it would seem it is being solved in a poor way. There are lots of ugly pages in the wiki that are out of date and confusing but shoving everything into a namespace plasters over the issue; sweeping it under the rug. Solutions: - Lots of hard work fixing and pruning pages, staging the new wiki at a diferent URL - Introducing a wiki just for users e.g. welcome.opensuse.org or docs.opensuse.org
1. devel: ? Oh, but these teams are not necessarily developers
Developer as in? Software developer, business developer, community developer, film developer (chemical), etc :) Creating artwork is development. Writing documentation is development. Creating communication infrastructure is development. Developing marketing strategy is ... (right development).
Certainly, I agree with all of these definitions of developers. But, things in the openSUSE namespace include governance and community building information like openSUSE:Board, openSUSE:Ambassadors_events, etc e.g. devel:Board wouldn't reflect the work they do for openSUSE: they facilitate, communicate and assist in resolving issues.
3. community: ? Maybe, but community:Java packaging cookbook looks strange
Not strange at all, but it is redundant as well. Of course it is community, not Martians :)
Community: at least adds the hint that these community oriented pages and not part of the openSUSE consumer documentation.
4. project: ? This is my second choice as nearly all of the links on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project are to the openSUSE: namespace...
That is default, but as soon as you choose name for the wiki it will become that name, in our case "openSUSE".
I don't follow this.
1-4 have their problems but at least they are not redundant.
We had redundancy before. This one will not change much.
Agreed. At the very least we can figure out a name which might make it clearer what the mission of this namespace is. Although, preferably just get rid of it all together.
Lets discuss what problem this openSUSE: namespace is trying to solve and how we can make sane looking URLs on our new wiki. And lets do it fast so we can avoid breaking URLs again.
Too late for not breaking anything :)
True, I have REDIRECTED many pages already.
There is already a lot of internal links that should be changed in case that we want something different as a project namespace.
Add two levels of redirection? It isn't too late. This new wiki is only a few weeks old. The total damage is small today. Thanks for you input. Cheers, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 30 July 2010 10:16:27 Brandon Philips wrote:
On 02:56 Fri 30 Jul 2010, Rajko M. wrote:
On Thursday 29 July 2010 20:24:09 Brandon Philips wrote:
Lets look at the mission statement of the openSUSE: namespace[1]:
"And the openSUSE community's openSUSE: namespace to collaboratively write on documentation for their projects and teams."
http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Namespace "openSUSE - Presentation and working pages of our teams, tools and projects. Everything for the contributors to our project."
That is a more helpful definition. Maybe the namespace should be contrib: then? Or perhaps move all of the user facing documentation to docs:?
To be precise we would need to go trough the articles on both new and old wiki that qualify as not presentation or technical instructions, and see how they can be sorted out.
Possible alternatives:
0. No namespace at all, the openSUSE community exists at openSUSE.org! We have an entire domain to call our own! Why do we need a namespace?
Breaks separation of content on part that is used to present openSUSE to casual visitors (majority), part used for troubleshooting which is minority, and part for contributors which is even smaller.
As a contributor the namespaces are not helping me and are confusing.
How has Wikipedia managed to create a huge and useful repository without namespaces?
The have some and they are used the same way as we do, it is just a different need and different names. They also employ different servers for stuff that is very different by content. What criteria they used to create separate server I don't know. Our problem is that definition of namespaces and its usage is still work in progress. Initially SDB was meant for all technical stuff, but some basic instructions must be part of the distro presentation effort.
We absolutely don't want to push information on 1001 problem, collected in last 15 years of SUSE, in eyes of people that clicked on some web link to see what is openSUSE.
If this was the original problem it would seem it is being solved in a poor way. There are lots of ugly pages in the wiki that are out of date and confusing but shoving everything into a namespace plasters over the issue; sweeping it under the rug.
I agree that there is a lot of old pages that found their way during initial transition, but the namespaces have nothing to do with attempt to hide them. Grouping in namespaces is meant for the future organization.
Solutions:
- Lots of hard work fixing and pruning pages, staging the new wiki at a diferent URL
We already did a lot of that, and what you see is the best of old wiki :)
- Introducing a wiki just for users e.g. welcome.opensuse.org or docs.opensuse.org
In our case creating separate servers will just allow to use Main namespace as default for any content that is on topic with server purpose, but linking from presentation article to troubleshooting, or hardware database article will go over external link. It will help to write article without thinking about prefixes, but we will have to think about servers. The idea to move presentation articles to welcome.opensuse.org has the same problem. IMO, the only criteria to use separate welcome.o.o would be that we have to separate extensions that are used to enhance content presentation. Some of them can be resource hogs, so giving them separate server will help to keep other sites responsive. ...
Certainly, I agree with all of these definitions of developers. But, things in the openSUSE namespace include governance and community building information like openSUSE:Board, openSUSE:Ambassadors_events, etc
The openSUSE is obviously overloaded. Above examples, plus team pages and other governance stuff, are what I see as natural fit to openSUSE namespace, but not technical stuff like Build service, YaST, Web YaST, or artwork stuff. Any ideas how to sort that too?
... Community: at least adds the hint that these community oriented pages and not part of the openSUSE consumer documentation.
Everything is community. We don't have foundation yet, but we don't want to hint separation on some non-community and community activities. Separation is more in our heads as echo from SUSE times. It is now by who created content, contributor paid by Novell, or somebody else.
4. project: ? This is my second choice as nearly all of the links on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project are to the openSUSE: namespace...
That is default, but as soon as you choose name for the wiki it will become that name, in our case "openSUSE".
I don't follow this.
What is now openSUSE namespace is actually Project. If you don't choose name for your wiki during setup, it will stay Project.
1-4 have their problems but at least they are not redundant.
We had redundancy before. This one will not change much.
Agreed. At the very least we can figure out a name which might make it clearer what the mission of this namespace is. Although, preferably just get rid of it all together.
See above comment about openSUSE: . ...
True, I have REDIRECTED many pages already.
Thanks. Just don't forget to add links to categories: http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Redirects_to_stay http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Redirects_to_delete
There is already a lot of internal links that should be changed in case that we want something different as a project namespace.
Add two levels of redirection? It isn't too late. This new wiki is only a few weeks old. The total damage is small today.
No need for 2 levels of redirection :) The wiki procedure is to change first redirect that points to second page that is also redirect. You just make first redirect link to actual page. And, I will urge everybody that reads this, to think twice before removing any redirect. In one or two years we can start thinking about removing them, but right now it is really bad idea.
Brandon
-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 30/07/10 03:24, Brandon Philips wrote:
Hello All and Everyone-
Today, I wish to talk about redundancy. In particular things that add no new information and are a simple rearrangement of the understood data. In other words: repetitiveness for no-gain at all.
Problem -------
I was trying to point a community member at the Kernel Git page today so they could get involved. But I was baffled to find it gone. Searching a bit I ended up finding it at this URL:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Kernel_git
Two openSUSE's in one URL, what a deal! Without that openSUSE: namespace I might have thought I was going to grab the Ubuntu Kernel Git...
As we are breaking URLs all over with this new wiki anyways can we take a moment and consider the URL monsters we are creating here? Just look at it once again:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Kernel_git
There has got to be something better, lets find a solution. :)
Solution --------
Lets look at the mission statement of the openSUSE: namespace[1]:
"And the openSUSE community's openSUSE: namespace to collaboratively write on documentation for their projects and teams."
Possible alternatives:
0. No namespace at all, the openSUSE community exists at openSUSE.org! We have an entire domain to call our own! Why do we need a namespace?
1. devel: ? Oh, but these teams are not necessarily developers
2. teams: ? Erm, no because then it would be teams:Kernel_git which makes no sense
3. community: ? Maybe, but community:Java packaging cookbook looks strange
4. project: ? This is my second choice as nearly all of the links on http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Project are to the openSUSE: namespace...
1-4 have their problems but at least they are not redundant.
Lets discuss what problem this openSUSE: namespace is trying to solve and how we can make sane looking URLs on our new wiki. And lets do it fast so we can avoid breaking URLs again.
Cheers,
Brandon
Hello Brandon, hello list, a) Pre aa) My position: If you (pl.) want to know about things I do not like in the usage of namespaches you may look at: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/community/opensuse-wiki-discussions/ http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/ http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/ and my remarks especially on the discussion pages of the wiki. bb) Definition of namespaces Clearer (but not perfect - Example articles, example discussion of choosing the 'right' namespache): http://en.opensuse.org/Help:Namespace :
" Content namespaces
These are the namespaces where all the written content lives.
* Main - Presentation of the current version of the openSUSE distribution. Everything for consumers of our distribution including installation instructions and applications presentation articles. Any troubleshooting and not supported procedures does not belong here, but in SDB (see below). Example ATI and SDB:ATI. * SDB (Support Data Base) - Help, Howtos, support. If you have a problem with the distribution you will find help here. The regular installation and other supported procedures does not belong here, but any workaround for missing functionality and bugs, does. * openSUSE - Presentation and working pages of our teams, tools and projects. Everything for the contributors to our project. * HCL (Hardware Compatibility List) - Information on which hardware works well with openSUSE, or not. * Help - Instructions, guidelines and examples, regarding the wiki. Everything for the contributors to our wiki. * Archive For content that has no current value, but we want to preserve it for future reference. "
b) Renaming Namespaces ba) I like the proposal 4. But at what cost can it be managed? Can this be done by a bot? Should there stay redirects or should any links to the articles in the openSUSE namespace be broken (again)? bb) Maybe the content of the Main namespace could be described clearer/more related the a purpose if it would be described as namespace User or namespace basic (but please no renaming). But if this would be so, someone should rethink about the place for some articles e. g.: the articles under http://en.opensuse.org/Terminal http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:What_is_a_console c) [[openSUSE:Kernel_git]] ca) [[Kernel]] missing: I personally miss an (introducing) article (or a Portal?) about the kernels that come with the openSUSE distribution and how they are made. In my opinion a short sentence and a link to the article that is now under [[openSUSE:Kernel_git]] would be fine there. cb) The content of the article cba) The introduction:
"The openSUSE / SLE kernel git repository is located at http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kernel-source. It's not a fork of the mainline kernel repository, but a series of patches, spec file templates and a set of script to work with the repository." The technical terms/ "SLE", "kernel", "repository", "fork", "mainline", "patch", "spec", "file templates" "script" are all in the introduction and without any explanation or definition in the article itself or by linking to an explaining and defining article in this wiki.
d) Redundancy If one word has different proposes on different levels it is not redundant (but maybe it seems to be). Maybe funny, maybe ridiculous but not redundant. Greetings pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 10:33 Fri 30 Jul 2010, pistazienfresser (see profile) wrote:
c) [[openSUSE:Kernel_git]] ca) [[Kernel]] missing: I personally miss an (introducing) article (or a Portal?) about the kernels that come with the openSUSE distribution and how they are made. In my opinion a short sentence and a link to the article that is now under [[openSUSE:Kernel_git]] would be fine there.
Good idea, I will create a Kernel page.
cb) The content of the article cba) The introduction:
"The openSUSE / SLE kernel git repository is located at http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kernel-source. It's not a fork of the mainline kernel repository, but a series of patches, spec file templates and a set of script to work with the repository." The technical terms/ "SLE", "kernel", "repository", "fork", "mainline", "patch", "spec", "file templates" "script" are all in the introduction and without any explanation or definition in the article itself or by linking to an explaining and defining article in this wiki.
Please provide links to the wiki pages that defne these things. I can write about the Kernel team processes. But, it is unlikely I would be able to create a readable definition of SLE, patch, spec, etc. :)
d) Redundancy If one word has different proposes on different levels it is not redundant (but maybe it seems to be). Maybe funny, maybe ridiculous but not redundant.
To the casual contributor, unfamiliar with the discussion and definitions of the namespaces, the two openSUSE strings in one URL is redundant. I spent 20 minutes reading discussions and wiki pages before I had an OK understanding. Thanks for the feedback. Cheers, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
Hello Brandon, hello List, On 30/07/10 17:39, Brandon Philips wrote:
On 10:33 Fri 30 Jul 2010, pistazienfresser (see profile) wrote:
c) [[openSUSE:Kernel_git]] ca) [[Kernel]] missing: I personally miss an (introducing) article (or a Portal?) about the kernels that come with the openSUSE distribution and how they are made. In my opinion a short sentence and a link to the article that is now under [[openSUSE:Kernel_git]] would be fine there.
Good idea, I will create a Kernel page.
Very, very, very cool. Thanks a lot! I have only seen a short article in the de.opensuse.org - wiki: http://de.opensuse.org/Linux_Kernel (DE) and found some actual information about the kernel both as a program/a *the* part of a linux distribution/GNU linux and as an social event/project on h-online (English, related with Heise (DE)): http://www.h-online.com/search/?rm=search&q=kernel+log&search_submit=Search But on the forums and mailinglists are often just openSUSE related kernel questions: e. g.: What is the difference between/purpose of default/desktop?
cb) The content of the article cba) The introduction:
"The openSUSE / SLE kernel git repository is located at http://gitorious.org/opensuse/kernel-source. It's not a fork of the mainline kernel repository, but a series of patches, spec file templates and a set of script to work with the repository." The technical terms/ "SLE", "kernel", "repository", "fork", "mainline", "patch", "spec", "file templates" "script" are all in the introduction and without any explanation or definition in the article itself or by linking to an explaining and defining article in this wiki.
Please provide links to the wiki pages that defne these things. I can write about the Kernel team processes. But, it is unlikely I would be able to create a readable definition of SLE, patch, spec, etc. :)
This was a remark to that article and how I would like to be a wiki article in general in an ideal wiki. Why should I be in the position to give you any advice? Sorry, if that was your idea about my intention. One of my motti/my intensions was more: audiatur et altera pars - let also the other side be heard There may be some reasons that this article with the 'name' "Kernel git" is not one of the first to be shown to someone how enters this wiki. But I do not see any reason why this article should not be shown to/should be hidden before any user that gives "Kernel git" or "Kernel" AND "git" to the main internal search (compare: http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-wiki/2010-07/msg00221.html). And if you would be willing to assist me: I may be stupid/unknowing enough to try to make readable (but may be technical wrong) articles about these items *in the long time*. (I know that it is very difficult to write a short and readable article about an issue you know to much of - you would be astonished if you would know how much time I used for e. g.: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anstiftung&action=history) If I would do so I would make a draft first in my user-namespace - would you be willing to take a look at them if they would be in the status "to be born/to be loose free"?
d) Redundancy If one word has different proposes on different levels it is not redundant (but maybe it seems to be). Maybe funny, maybe ridiculous but not redundant.
To the casual contributor, unfamiliar with the discussion and definitions of the namespaces, the two openSUSE strings in one URL is redundant. I spent 20 minutes reading discussions and wiki pages before I had an OK understanding.
As you can see in my alternative description I am not happy with this status/naming - but I do not think that now an alternative would make less harm or and I do not think this purpose would get any support from the wiki team in charge (http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Wiki_team). I also had asked before in this list for giving "an example (with article related explanation and discussion) for the use of namespaches, categories and titles/names," [ http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2010-07/msg00173.html ] . but only with the result of giving me a definition page on that I had already linked in discussion pages before. http://en.opensuse.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Help:Namespace even on the same page that was linked in my 'bidding' posting. Hope, I made my intension and my point of view a bit more comprehensible. Regards pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
On 19:05 Fri 30 Jul 2010, pistazienfresser (see profile) wrote:
On 30/07/10 17:39, Brandon Philips wrote:
Good idea, I will create a Kernel page.
Very, very, very cool. Thanks a lot!
and found some actual information about the kernel both as a program/a *the* part of a linux distribution/GNU linux and as an social event/project on h-online (English, related with Heise (DE)):
But on the forums and mailinglists are often just openSUSE related kernel questions: e. g.: What is the difference between/purpose of default/desktop?
I added a new page with this information: http://en.opensuse.org/Kernel Thanks, Brandon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Brandon Philips -
Frank Sundermeyer -
Henne Vogelsang -
pistazienfresser (see profile) -
Rajko M. -
Rémy Marquis