[opensuse-wiki] Bugzilla is missing in the wiki?

Hello wiki-list! A) The problem: *There seems to be no article about Bugzilla in the wiki* Maybe someone could help the consumer a bit if she/he needs help from the wiki with bugzilla about the issues: 1) a) to know what bugzilla is - the description and the definition (the wiki helping the consumer to get basic knowledge about a essential part of the openSUSE project - in my opinion the lowest level, according to the telos/meaning of namespaces, namespace definitons and namespace rules: so namespace 0=main or at least namespace 102 = portal) b) to know if someone else has the same problem (troubleshooting/support - I think that would be the most wanted but according to the words of the definition a article only on this issue would be member of namespace SDB) 2) a) wants the developers to tell about a problem that he has so that the developers can help him (article about to get help by by telling the helpers about the problem - namespace SDB) b) wants to help the developers to improve the distribution by telling them about a problem hat she/he had (article about helping the helpers by telling the helpers about the problem - namespace openSUSE) c) wants other users to tell about a workaround/solution he had figured out (the wiki helping to help the potential helper to tell the users/consumer about a possible resolution - namespace openSUSE) B) The plot/the detailed description: The last night I saw a edit according to a problem that prevents users to make live usb devices form DVD images and therefor to install a DVD image on a netbook (which by definition has no DVD or CD drive): This morning I wanted to help the users that had reported that problem in the forums (see: http://forums.opensuse.org/english/information-new-users/unreviewed-how-faq/... http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-help-here/install-boot-login/442070-c... and on the wiki by telling him how to escalate that a bit so that in the future the potential users of openSUSE on a netbook do not give up just because they are not able to install a DVD image on a netbook (what would be a bit funny after making the netbook support a highlight of the new version open 11.3 and the mobile things a strategic/tactic target of openSUSE - see the new openSUSE strategy). I thought it would be an easy thing to give them the according article about bugzilla in the wiki (a "what is" including the purpose of bugzilla and may be with a little "how to use" or at least a link to a article about the detailed "how to use"). I gave "bugzilla" in the normal internal search engine of the wiki - with me been logged in and so (differing to the default settings) with the search in namespace SDB = ns102 also enabled so I would get with will (as I understood) the openSUSE-wiki's seach engine make 0) would lead to an article with name/tile "bugzilla" if such would exist (and if not go to 1) and 2) which may be equal to http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=20&offset=0&ns0=... ) 1) first get articles displayed with with "bugzilla" in the name/tile and 1) will be containing (without a namespace related) order 1.1) articles in the namespace main (ns0) 1.2) articles in the namespace SDB (ns100) 1.2) articles in the namespace Portal (ns102) 2) second get articles displayed with with "bugzilla" in the body/text and 2) will be containing (a namespace related) order 2.1) articles in the namespace main (ns0) 2.2) articles in the namespace SDB (ns100) 2.2) articles in the namespace Portal (ns102) According to the google-like output/display of the output of titles and text around the fitting words in the text of the search results the best fitting but last displayed article of 23 search results was: http://en.opensuse.org/BG-Submitting_Bug_Reports which sees to contain something about the topic 2) but cause of my not existing knowledge of/in that language (my guess: Bulgarian with Cyrillic letters - ISO 639-1 bg) I can understand only the links and the title of that article in English. C) The solution?: Greetings pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-07-17 12:10, pistazienfresser wrote:
Hello wiki-list!
A) The problem:
*There seems to be no article about Bugzilla in the wiki*
Maybe someone could help the consumer a bit if she/he needs help from the wiki with bugzilla about the issues:
Search sucks, it is a known fact. If I go to the main page and there to [Discover it] it brings me to <http://en.opensuse.org/Main_Page>, I don't see there how to report a bug. No "HELP!" link. There is a "support" link ("support" suggest "payment" to me). Following it, at the bottom of the page, "bugzilla" is mentioned, and points to <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports> Or, from the main page you can go to [Get it], which has a "Reporting bugs" link on the side bar on the right, which brings to the same page as above. Which I find because I know it is there, thus I was looking for it in that page. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxBiN4ACgkQU92UU+smfQUo8gCbBwtG6MyvIKZM/z9Ihajqjxz0 v/QAn3NypxDhAVDqQRN0mOvpuXDq+Jzu =PfWt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 17 July 2010 05:41:34 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2010-07-17 12:10, pistazienfresser wrote:
Hello wiki-list!
A) The problem:
*There seems to be no article about Bugzilla in the wiki*
http://en.opensuse.org/Submit_a_Bug now redirects to: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports
about the issues: Search sucks, it is a known fact.
Yes. But, search for "help" or "support" will give you: http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Support and then you can use any of searches there to find what you want. New wiki is designed (including search) [1] for those that look for information about openSUSE, and if that information is help with problems, which is on 90% of web pages called support, they find link called Support and click on it to land in the web site portion that offer help for problems. (Check any really big company web site that offers help for customers.) Support >> http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Support New wiki is not the old. Your knowledge how to handle information in the wiki is obsolete. (Just, don't feel alone, I needed quite some time to forget old stuff and it is still creeping out whenever I don't watch :) ) Sooner you forget old wiki, that offered pile of junk to everyone and let them find what they need in a long list of pages that ever mentioned word they look for, sooner you will try to find how to use new one. Then you will find that a lot of things are better, but other are still not there and your comments will ask for improvements, not for the way back. We need that comments. We want new design principles to be applied across the wiki, where people with different interests can easily find pages that they want, where easily means not 15 minutes reading list of search results, for each word you looked for.
If I go to the main page and there to [Discover it] it brings me to <http://en.opensuse.org/Main_Page>, I don't see there how to report a bug. No "HELP!" link. There is a "support" link ("support" suggest "payment" to me).
Support is help as mentioned above. Majority of companies offer that as free, but some will ask for money. Don't do the business with those that ask money to help you with their product. If product would be good then you would not ask for help. User education, when product is complex, should be paid for, but some are asking you to pay to solve a bug >:) (I can't use words to describe my feelings about that)
Following it, at the bottom of the page, "bugzilla" is mentioned, and points to <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports>
Which is OK.
Or, from the main page you can go to [Get it], which has a "Reporting bugs" link on the side bar on the right, which brings to the same page as above.
Which I find because I know it is there, thus I was looking for it in that page.
The reason that Bugs are not the top of the page is that 90% (actually even more) people should go trough docs, then ML, forums, IRC, and then bugzilla. You don't trow on them bugzilla as a first option. We spent some time looking around, how other did it, before we put that page together. It is far from perfect, and will be improved, as time permits, but it is not just some scribble. [1] Concepts are explained in http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Wiki and pages linked from there. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-07-17 17:43, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 17 July 2010 05:41:34 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2010-07-17 12:10, pistazienfresser wrote:
Hello wiki-list!
New wiki is designed (including search) [1] for those that look for information about openSUSE,
Then add another search that searches for solutions and docs, not info on oS.
If I go to the main page and there to [Discover it] it brings me to <http://en.opensuse.org/Main_Page>, I don't see there how to report a bug. No "HELP!" link. There is a "support" link ("support" suggest "payment" to me).
Support is help as mentioned above. Majority of companies offer that as free, but some will ask for money. Don't do the business with those that ask money to help you with their product. If product would be good then you would not ask for help.
My point is that when I see the word "Support" in a web page of a product, I think they are going to charge me, so I look somewhere else for "help", which might be on an external forum. The word "Support" doesn't suggest clicking on it for community help. It means some business thing. It may be a language barrier, but remember that many people with poor English will be looking there.
Following it, at the bottom of the page, "bugzilla" is mentioned, and points to <http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports>
Which is OK.
Maybe. But it happens that in the forums we are suggesting to people that already have found a bug to report it in bugzilla right away... so this people will put "bugzilla" in the search box and not find it. Which is pistazienfresser point, I understand. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxCDqIACgkQU92UU+smfQVDiQCdGoyD86GPsltiAW7ntW2YHtn3 tSIAn3fE+l4fDmZThwJ9o+/wHS4qTnll =XZOO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Hey, On 17.07.2010 22:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
My point is that when I see the word "Support" in a web page of a product, I think they are going to charge me
Tough luck for you then ;) Everybody is calling it support. Microsoft, Apple, Ubuntu, KDE, GNOME... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

From: "[opensuse-wiki] Bugzilla is missing in the wiki?" http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2010-07/msg00201.html On 17/07/10 17:43, Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 17 July 2010 05:41:34 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2010-07-17 12:10, pistazienfresser wrote: [...] The reason that Bugs are not the top of the page is that 90% (actually even more) people should go trough docs, then ML, forums, IRC, and then bugzilla. You don't trow on them bugzilla as a first option. We spent some time looking around, how other did it, before we put that page together. It is far from perfect, and will be improved, as time permits, but it is not just some scribble.
See also: "Re: [opensuse-project] The new wiki search plain sucks" http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-07/msg00269.html If people give the intern search engine of the new openSUSE wiki the word "bugs" it might be appropriate to assume they want to know something about bugs in openSUSE or (special) bugs in openSUSE (a bit done now). If people give that search engine the word "bugzilla" it might be appropriate to assume they want to know something about Bugzilla (a bit done now). If people give that search engine the word "sax2" it might be appropriate to assume they want to know something about sax2 (the program that is still part of the main repositories in openSUSE 11.2 and to my knowledge part of the default installation in openSUSE 11.1). If people give that search engine the word "terminal" or "console" it might be appropriate to assume they want to know something about a terminal or a console. And if there is not only one meaning to the word "terminal" or "console" it might be wise to lead them access to a page like "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal" / "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Console" or a "What is"/definition/description page of the most used meaning with a hint and links to descriptions of other may-be-meant meanings. (See also: http://wiki.opensuse.org/Talk:Terminal) Greetings pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 17. Juli 2010, 12:41:34 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2010-07-17 12:10, pistazienfresser wrote:
*There seems to be no article about Bugzilla in the wiki*
Maybe someone could help the consumer a bit if she/he needs help from the wiki with bugzilla
about the issues: Search sucks, it is a known fact.
If I go to the main page and there to [Discover it] it brings me to <http://en.opensuse.org/Main_Page>, I don't see there how to report a bug. No "HELP!" link. There is a "support" link ("support" suggest "payment" to me).
I have asked for an icon and "Get Help" next to it before, more than once, yet "support" was always said to be enough. I fully agree with you that support is not the same as help. And IMHO that button should be on the main page alongside "Get it" etc. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Le 18/07/2010 10:25, Sven Burmeister a écrit :
I have asked for an icon and "Get Help" next to it before, more than once, yet "support" was always said to be enough. I fully agree with you that support is not the same as help. And IMHO that button should be on the main page alongside "Get it" etc.
true. Don't forget the openSUSE "box version"" come with "90 days of end-user installation support via email or phone" (http://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE), so yes, "support" can be seen as paid support (paid by paying the box) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org
participants (6)
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Carlos E. R.
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Henne Vogelsang
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jdd
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pistazienfresser
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Rajko M.
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Sven Burmeister