List subscribers, my last two mails were not intended for the public list but for team-internal coordination only. I'm sorry, Rajko and Remy, to accidentally CC: the opensuse-wiki ml - this wasn't intended at all. Best, R 2010/1/27 Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org>:

Again, I CC: Rajko this time as he's the last person in history for this page. NEVER do something like this without making me aware. I'm not at all able to manage this project if the master document we put out to volunteers is changed that tremendously. Please, with cream on top, FIX this ASAP. I'd do, but I have no idea what happened here .. I wouldn't have noticed that at all without complaints through the forums.

Thanks, R

2010/1/27 Rupert Horstkötter <rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org>:

...

Remy,

what's going on here? I looked at http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_Guidelines#Step_1_:_Articles_review and as it seems there happened a major edit to the instructions without notifying me at all. I cannot see any more links to e.g. the templates (in review and so on) we need to use while reviewing are no longer linked.

Requests therefore: 1. May you please fix this? 2. Please never do such major edits without my knowledge (don't know who did that, I just write you as the caretaker of the Transition process) .. Also, this discourages people. Sorry for addressing this to you but I'm honestly angry about this. 3. Would you please take care of consulting the forums guys? I don't understand their concerns neither do I know what's going on with http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_Guidelines#Step_1_:_Articles_review

I hope you don't mind this but please fix that asap!

This has a very bad impact on project success, R

2010/1/27 Malcolm <malcolm_lewis@bellsouth.net>:

...

Hi Can someone assist over in the forum with this persons query #2. #1 is being looked at.

http://forums.opensuse.org/forums-comments-suggestions/431760-wiki-help-help...

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Rajko, 2010/1/28 Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net>:

Malcom needs some answer and just reverting changes is not the one.

Taking time between agreement to create and use table, until it was finally online, I can understand that you have forgotten that table was planned a while ago, but change should not be unexpected. I also understand from short answers mixed in full quoted text that you have time pressure, so some stuff may slip out of focus.

Actually I haven't heard a single word about the Transition_table until it was brought to my attention that way. Again, there's no question that sending my complaints to the public list was a mistake, not intended at all and I'm really sorry for that. But still, I'm not aligned with the way the Transition_table has been established. Neither from the perspective of informing me as the coordinator of the big picture here nor from the perspective of communicating this to involved parties (existing and potential contributors).

I didn't take time to make table just for fun or to remove * (asterisk) in previous list. Table should help transition to go without unnecessary work and cover needs that were identified up to now, and that is why I added few more tags for status page, with possibly more to come.

New tags are documented on top of the table, table is numbered so that is not a problem to find right line to edit (unlike previous with asterisk), and if there is more question I'll answer them.

The change in Translation guidelines is just to reflect how the table should be used, because if we use it correctly it saves people working on transition few hundred edits of articles that are reviewed. We have to remove templates before moving them to the new instance. How much work is that can tell anybody working on transition, and anyone that ever tried to fix lack of indexing adding categories to articles. It can take days before that is finished.

That was reason to remove references to templates. They are used enough by now, and there is already enough work to cleanup existing articles.

As of the Transition_table itself, I understand your motivation to create it, I appreciate it and I'm fine with its utilization instead of the former template/asterisk/transition_list approach if that way to deal with the process is easier to maintain from a long term perspective for wiki seniors (and more convenient for Reviewers) What I complaining about, and I still stand there, is the following: 1. I had no knowledge at all about the changes prior to this conversation 2. The community/volunteers is/are dependent on tools we provide and may them be better (something I don't doubt here), we need to communicate this loudly especially if we previously were loud about the Wiki review at forums.o.o, lizards.o.o, news.o.o, the list and follows. Furthermore people get used to processes and we tried hard to explain these to various parties .. this assumed, it's at best semi-optimal to establish something new, especially in the way it has been done. 3. To sum this up: It's hard to do my work if such structural changes (valuable or not) are done without any notification. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen one, neither in my inbox, at news, lizards, forums or elsewhere. That all said, I'd appreciate a BIG notice on the very top of http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_Guidelines#Step_1_:_Articles_review in order to make them aware of the changes not only by reading and noticing "Hey, that has changed since I read this last time" but as a top notice before previously involved people jump in and get confused in trying to help us. Something along the lines: "Community volunteers, if you contributed to these efforts previously, we'd like to make you aware of the following (if not just skip this): we previously utilized Transition_list (URL) and templates (URL, URL, URL) in order to coordinate the Reviewing process of existing articles at en.o.o. After discussing this approach team-internally, we decided to establish Transition_table (URL) as a replacement in order to make the process more convenient both for Reviewers and from a long term maintenance perspective. Thanks for your understanding, the modified process is explained in detail below." Last but not least, I'd herewith like to request that further changes of that sort are communicated better (at least I should know in order to be able to communicate it and to throw in my 0.02$ before they are published) OK? Best, R

-- Regards Rajko,

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Rajko, with all due respect, I have not at all an interest in escalating this conversation cause I don't see where this should lead to from a "working together" perspective. That said, my general request holds true: as the project coordinator of these efforts, I'd like to get at least kind of a notice about planned structural changes (if they are of that sort) and I'd like to have the opportunity to throw in my 0.02$ before they get implemented. This btw applies too very few things but this particular one is a good example of what I'm talking about and an involvement of mine hasn't taken place in the required amount here. Whatever POV about specific things we may have, I hope we're on the same page here. Are we? Please see my answers (inline) below .. 2010/1/29 Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net>:

On Thursday 28 January 2010 06:42:35 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

...

Rajko,

2010/1/28 Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net>: ... Actually I haven't heard a single word about the Transition_table until it was brought to my attention that way.

 http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2010-01/msg00018.html call it list or table, that is mentioned, and here is your answer:  http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2010-01/msg00021.html

This is a discussion about the 20%/80% issue I identified in early January and while there is some conversation about the process, this is highly out of context here. Quite contrary to what you're trying to outline, I said the following (and this is pretty much in sync with what I say here): ---begin citation This is much appreciated. That said, please let us keep the current http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_List and just adopt/merge it accordingly instead of coming up with a new page of review candidates. Reason: We promoted http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_List at several places and sessions and I'd like to avoid too much confusion for Reviewers. Also we need to take care that the asterisks at http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_List are preserved. Still on the same page? ---end citation Actually I got no response here on the question "Still on the same page?" and that's where we are.

...

Again, there's no question that sending my complaints to the public list was a mistake, not intended at all and I'm really sorry for that. But still, I'm not aligned with the way the Transition_table has been established. Neither from the perspective of informing me as the coordinator of the big picture here nor from the perspective of communicating this to involved parties (existing and potential contributors).

"Transition guidelines" were updated to reflect "Transition table list" usage to new contributors. Old were notified and tested it as it was created on IRC channel.

Taking "Working DRAFT" notice in "Transition guidelines" every interested party should watch page for changes. All that is necessary is to click on link "Watch" above the page title and it will be added to personal watch list that can be accessed using link "My watchlist" at the top of each page, in line with "My talk | My preferences | My watchlist | My contributions | Log out".

As the project coordinator you should use that, to prevent future surprises. There will be more changes as what Remy wrote was known at the time of writing, so there is few more things that will change when we agree on them.

I'll consider this, thanks. That said, please keep me in the loop about further changes (if they are of that sort, certainly not every simple step you do cause you're doing very good and I'm pretty much aware) before actually implementing it. You say yourself "when we agree on them" and while I don't request having a voice about technical details, I strongly request having a voice about the coordinational feasibility of those. This is, in the end, my role and responsibility within this project. It's not about my very own personal interests, it's about the success of these efforts and the need to avoid discouraging contributions.

...

...

What I complaining about, and I still stand there, is the following: 1. I had no knowledge at all about the changes prior to this conversation

See above, plus we can ask Frank to enable email notification, but you want to see only your watch list, not all recent changes. This can be set up in "My preferences".

...

2. The community/volunteers is/are dependent on tools we provide and may them be better (something I don't doubt here), we need to communicate this loudly especially if we previously were loud about the Wiki review at forums.o.o, lizards.o.o, news.o.o, the list and follows. Furthermore people get used to processes and we tried hard to explain these to various parties .. this assumed, it's at best semi-optimal to establish something new, especially in the way it has been done.

Agree, I'll see how to explain that

OK, that's anyways the central point of my argumentation.

...

3. To sum this up: It's hard to do my work if such structural changes (valuable or not) are done without any notification. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen one, neither in my inbox, at news, lizards, forums or elsewhere.

Communicating changes to the rest of the openSUSE infrastructure will eat up a little of my free time that I can give to the project (just as this email does), so I have to ask that someone to help with this.

Whether it eats time or not (and trust me I understand where you're coming from cause this email eats a lot of my time as well), it's needed to do this in order to manage something like this. A project with team members not communicating sufficiently is not what we need here, neither do we need (in the worst case) fighting team members and I'm pretty sure neither you nor me are interested in things like that cause this isn't helpful for our (btw, please remember this, collective) goal: being successful!

...

That all said, I'd appreciate a BIG notice on the very top of http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_Guidelines#Step_1_:_Articles_review in order to make them aware of the changes not only by reading and noticing "Hey, that has changed since I read this last time" but as a top notice before previously involved people jump in and get confused in trying to help us.

See http://en.opensuse.org/Transition_guidelines#Purpose and tell me is that kind of notice OK. We can consider also posts to ML and Forums, with explanation.

This is fine by me. Thanks for putting this up. Do you take care of the forums/ML (I'd feel this appropriate, while a few sentences are pretty much enough)?

IMHO, the only change that I can see right now that is influencing reviewers work will be "Transition List2" that will be converted to the table, and possible addition of tags for status column if someone comes on idea how it can make our life easier.

It is important to say that no change will be retroactive. What is done by old procedure it is done. People that will do physical transfer of files know both of them and know where to find articles.

OK, thanks for the explanation. This is what I'm looking for actually .. easy as is. Respectfully, R

...

...

Last but not least, I'd herewith like to request that further changes of that sort are communicated better (at least I should know in order to be able to communicate it and to throw in my 0.02$ before they are published)

I hope that above answers your request.

-- Regards Rajko,

openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org