On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 11:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

BC

I haven't installed 11.2 on anything yet, but my complaints with 11.1 came after installing on a desktop computer. Laptop use is also important for me, but if 11.2 fails on the desktop, it won't even be considered for my laptop. I really have my doubts about the way KDE is going.

Funnily enough after installing 11.2, I started longing for the "classic" gnome UI (that you get with Fedora and Ubuntu) , and not the Novell style, which I just don't find appealing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Fri, 04 Dec 2009, Mike McMullin wrote:

On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 11:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

I haven't installed 11.2 on anything yet, but my complaints with 11.1 came after installing on a desktop computer. Laptop use is also important for me, but if 11.2 fails on the desktop, it won't even be considered for my laptop. I really have my doubts about the way KDE is going.

Funnily enough after installing 11.2, I started longing for the "classic" gnome UI (that you get with Fedora and Ubuntu) , and not the Novell style, which I just don't find appealing.

Oh please, guys (and gals)! Do not blame shortcomings of KDE or Gnome in whichever version on openSUSE! Regardless of the fact that Novell/SuSE may alter some defaults (themes etc.) or whatever. I personally couldn't care less about what's happening with either desktop, as I use WindowMaker. And my 11.2 runs quite smooth, thank you very much, even though I did an upgrade from 11.1 32bit to 11.2 64bit, using a minimally unpacked ISO to boot+install from HD. And despite the fact that I made a couple of mistakes in the process! And, as far as I've used them thus far, KDE/QT and Gnome/Gtk apps run quite well under oS 11.2/WindowMaker, as much as they used to (or ever do or will), e.g. k3b. So, complain about KDE $whatever, or Gnome $whatever under $whatever openSUSE version, but don't complain about openSUSE itself! Only do complain, when a change done by SUSE is actually the culprit ... Oh, and it's not that I haven't got anything to bitch about 11.2 (and older), but the stuff that really bugs me is basically independent of the distribution (e.g. udev[1], bash-completion (I've disabled it)[2]). I don't blame that stuff on SUSE. As I know it's from "upstream". I'd get that crap on Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, $whatever too. And I don't have time to do an LFS for that box that runs oS $current. My main box runs a homespun bastard dubbed "Hallerlix" (not by me originally), which started out, over 10 years ago, as a SuSE 6.2, and which is now very much bastardized and updated. And which fits _my_ needs quite exactly. Only some stuff that doesn't compile with a not *that* old gcc-3.3.5 is missing, primarily libboost and dependent stuff. Currently, I'm wrestling with compiling a new "current" gcc-4.4.0[3] with the available gcc-3.3.5, no luck thus far. Oh, and since a few days ago, I have a scripted-away sudo-chroot to some ubuntu glibc[4] dir for a binary-only-app that requires a glibc newer that I've got ;) Yay! -dnh [1] Fuck it! Sideways! I had to replace the MoBo and thus, the MAC of the NIC changed. I only stumbled on eth0 being tied to the old MAC in the fucking udev confs. What the fuck were they smoking? Windows Manuals^W^Wprinted-out Windows helpfiles? What the fuck IS it anyway with imitating Windows stupidities? [2] e.g. neither me nor mplayer care about the extension of a file, another Windows stupidity, and if I have only foo.bar in a directory, which happens to be an mp3, ac3, avi, mpeg, flv, or whatever you may have that mplayer can play, I want <TAB> to expand mpla<TAB>f<TAB> to 'mplayer foo.bar'. Lists of filename extensions are _always_ doomed to be incomplete and/or wrong. Most likely both. Well, actually, I didn't disable it completely. Currently, it only expands yast2 arguments though. Haven't got around to enable more options/arguments for other apps due to lack of interest and time. Simple, plain old command and filename completion suffices. Complex commands get "scripted" or aliased away. Which has led to rather complex wrapper-scripts around e.g. mplayer and rpm(build) (which I developed on the main box, then ported to the new box with 10.2/11.1/11.2). Go figure. [3] which was the latest when I started [4] Had a "warty" ISO lying around, which sufficed ;) -- I was going to compile a list of innovations that could be attributed to Microsoft. Once I realized that Ctrl-Alt-Del was handled in the BIOS, I found that there aren't any. --unknown -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Sat, 05 Dec 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Saturday, 2009-12-05 at 10:35 +0100, David Haller wrote: ...

...

I personally couldn't care less about what's happening with either desktop, as I use WindowMaker. And my 11.2 runs quite smooth, thank you very much, even though I did an upgrade from 11.1 32bit to 11.2 64bit, using a minimally unpacked ISO to boot+install from HD. And despite the fact that I made a couple of mistakes in the process!

That is thought to be impossible. Would you care to "document" it? :-)

I'll try. Might take a couple more days. Problem is, with 11.2 some stuff changed. And the arch-change didn't make it easier. -dnh, installing from (unpacked) ISOs since 8.1b3 or something like that -- panic("ocfs2 is very sorry to be fencing this system by panicing\n"); -- /usr/src/linux/fs/ocfs2/cluster/quorum.c -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

I always lay out my disk like this:

partition 1: OS 1 partition 2: OS 2 partition 3: swap partition 4: /home

Ummm... Shouldn't that be "partition 2: OS/2"? ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I didn't realize it, but while doing some research I discovered that OS/2 is still available, albeit with a different name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os/2 Leslie On Friday 04 December 2009 13:14:34 Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:11 PM, James Knott wrote:

...

Ummm...  Shouldn't that be "partition 2: OS/2"?  ;-)

If it was still viable I would be using it now....But, I moved to Linux because of lack of support.

KDE until KDE4 was the most like the Workplace shell of many of the desktops.

As for problems on the laptop, I did install it on my Thinkpad A22m. But, it wasn't the laptop that was the issue. It's that KDE4 is just too damn confusing for a longtime KDE user like me to make it work like I'm used to. So long as I can still use KDE3 I guess I will do so. All of the new "features" of KDE4 aren't anything I care about: Semantic Desktop(whatever that's supposed to be) widgets, eye-candy/bling, etc. And the fact that it's noticeably slower on older hardware is bad as well.

I have a newer Pentium M based laptop(which I'm actually used ATM), but It has Win on it since I'm trying to sell it(horrible keyboard to say the least). Looking at a newer Thinkpad, but.....

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/12/05 15:03 (GMT-0500) Larry Stotler composed:

Leslie Turriff

wrote:

...

I didn't realize it, but while doing some research I discovered that OS/2 is still available, albeit with a different name:

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os/2

Yeah. I've known that Serenity Systems has been making a version of OS/2 for a while. Unfortunately, it's expensive, and they haven't been able to keep up with their release schedule.....

Warp was never cheap. The "release" schedule is just about labeling. People have long been happily using the betas & RCs. This system is running eCS 1.1 upgraded to one less than the latest service pack, for the last 17 months on a P965/ICH8 chipset socket 775 motherboard w/ 2GB DDR2 and PCIe video. -- " We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Warp was never cheap. The "release" schedule is just about labeling. People have long been happily using the betas& RCs. This system is running eCS 1.1 upgraded to one less than the latest service pack, for the last 17 months on a P965/ICH8 chipset socket 775 motherboard w/ 2GB DDR2 and PCIe video.

IIRC, I picked up 2.1 and 3 for around $75(maybe less). Since I don't have them or any newer versions, I'd have to pay the full price for it. Out of my budget.

I bought 2.0, 2.1, 3 & 4. I bought Warp 4 in Sept. 1996. I then started working at IBM, for the first time, in April 1997 as 3rd level OS/2 support for IBM Canada employees. I was surprised to see they were still running Warp 3 there. I helped build the standard Warp 4 desktop for the company. While at IBM, I had CDs coming out of my ears! ;-) I managed to acquire a a couple more copies of Warp 4, Warp Server and lots of other stuff, including some Linux CDs. All I had to do was order them. I had my name on distribution lists for OS/2, DOS, Windows and Linux CDs. They'd come in packages of several CDs in a clear plastic folder. I still have a large box full of various CDs from back then. It was fun working there. In addition to my own ThinkPad 760E, I usually had 5 or 6 other models in my cabinet for testing with and about a dozen or so hard drives. Back then, swapping ThinkPad hard drives was very easy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 05 December 2009 04:56:33 pm Basil Chupin wrote:

about to install KDE444 later today.

Whoa, Basil. 4.4 beta 1 was just announced yesterday. I'm not sure I'd go there just yet. 4.3.4 seems rock solid, but 4.4 is still bleeding edge. -- A computer without Microsoft is like a chocolate cake without mustard. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 06 December 2009 04:27:19 Basil Chupin wrote:

So sorry....me culpa...a typo....I meant 4.3.4 (which is now installed)

Phew, we are still juggling flaming lumps of red hot 4.4beta1 in KDE:KDE4:Factory:Desktop, I wouldn't install it for a couple of days. -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Once I raised at this forum the issue of the abovementioned hide taskbar buttons but Sven Burnmeister has told me off and said that if it would be really

Burnmeister should have been Burmeister. Sorry for the typo. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 5. Dezember 2009 17:48:41 schrieb Istvan Gabor:

OFF:

...

I have made mistake to install new 11.2 to all the user PCs in my company and now everybody is crying to get them back KDE3, because KDE4 is so much slower (all desktop effects turned off, newest NVIDIA drivers, dual core CPUs with 2GB+ RAM), and much more complicated, and has all those unneeded stuff (like plasma - I still cannot find what is it good for), and does not have some tihings that were good in KDE3 (like little "hide taskbar" icons on the left/right).

I am happy to learn that I am not the only one who is very unsatisfied with KDE4. I also have to confirm that KDE4 is really much slower than KDE3. I have tried it several times on openSUSE 11.1 but would not use it for everyday use; sorry I have to correct myself, I would not use it for anything but testing. I even don't know why is it called KDE. It should look alike or resemble at least in something to conventional KDE, but is does not. I would rather call it a dulled gnome ("DGNOME from the KDE team"). It may sound disrespectful but during my more than then years linux experience I never met anything so unattractive as KDE4. Functionality and usability is very far from those of KDE3. Once I raised at this forum the issue of the abovementioned hide taskbar buttons but Sven Burnmeister has told me off and said that if it would be really wanted it had been already included. He also said that KDE3 is past but KDE4 IS FUTURE. And - maybe the most important point - if KDE4 is KDE why one has to learn to use it from scratch? The experience from KDE2, KDE3 doesn't lead you anywhere in KDE4. What does it has to do with KDE at all then?

From scratch is certainly exaggerated but yes KDE4 includes opportunities and changes that demand the user to learn new things as one has to in the real world every day. And yes, I still claim that if those buttons would have been crucial for a considerable group of KDE users somebody would have spent time or money on them. Yet even those that claim to need it really bad are not willing to do so. And none of those that still praise KDE3 and claim KDE4 to be unusable cared enough about KDE3 to take over the repo maintenance. Go figure. Nobody ever claimed that KDE's users are a static group so while KDE4 attracts new users it will also drive away those that do not like the change and put off most things they do not need as bling, as e.g. the magic lamp effect which animates the minimising of a window. Yet the latter is a good example of how effects are more than bling because for new computer users clicking on minimise would just make the window disappear without any hint where it went. That's bad usability! For experienced computer users it is not worth mentioning that minimising means that the window is put into the taskbar, yet for new users? The magic lamp effect links the minimising window with its destination and does not simply make it disappear. This is just one little example of how claiming that effects are just bling is wrong as all generalisations concerning "KDE4 is all about bling and features nobody needs" are simply wrong by definition. Another one would be the magnifying glass effect or sharpening etc. Some people even claimed that compiz was superior to kwin effects because it could do the cube effect... When claiming that KDE4 puts one off because of changes one should never forget that KDE4 attracts new users as well and as long as more users are attracted than put off it's community will grow. One might ignore that fact and wonder why oneself gets ignored but hey, that's life. Everybody has the right to make their own decisions and if they don't like KDE4, fair enough. Putting 11.2 on all computers in a company a few weeks after it was released...I better don't comment that and its implications. BTW, KDE4 with desktop effects enabled runs _very_ smooth on a MSI Wind netbook with intel graphics here and even better on an Athlon 4000+ with 2GB RAM and a NVIDIA 7600. Go figure. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2009-12-06 at 09:37 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote: ...

And none of those that still praise KDE3 and claim KDE4 to be unusable cared enough about KDE3 to take over the repo maintenance. Go figure.

Simple: those people may not have the time or the skills needed to do it. I know of quite a few people (long time kde users) that have just jumped ship to gnome, at least till kde4 is finished. Others have jumped distro (to Arch, for instance, where they report that kde just work).

Nobody ever claimed that KDE's users are a static group so while KDE4 attracts new users it will also drive away those that do not like the change and put off most things they do not need as bling, as e.g. the magic lamp effect which animates the minimising of a window. Yet the latter is a good example of how effects are more than bling because for new computer users clicking on minimise would just make the window disappear without any hint where it went. That's bad usability! For experienced computer users it is not worth mentioning that minimising means that the window is put into the taskbar, yet for new users? The magic lamp effect links the minimising window with its destination and does not simply make it disappear.

You have a point there. That being so, there is need of something that adjust "bling" to machine speed and capabilities; both automatic and manual. Users with older machines can then simple disable effects clicking a button or sliding a rule pointer.

When claiming that KDE4 puts one off because of changes one should never forget that KDE4 attracts new users as well and as long as more users are attracted than put off it's community will grow. One might ignore that fact and wonder why oneself gets ignored but hey, that's life. Everybody has the right to make their own decisions and if they don't like KDE4, fair enough.

It would be much better both keeping old users and attracting new users. For example, with a setup option to mimic kde3. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAksblxsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UE5gCeIYQWwsxjU2QYowI4GV4kCUmK Hj4AoILdvJoteCj2er44wZfR7bMZkQGT =vjVi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 06 December 2009 06:05:12 Clayton wrote:

...

That being so, there is need of something that adjust "bling" to machine speed and capabilities; both automatic and manual. Users with older machines can then simple disable effects clicking a button or sliding a rule pointer.

They can disable effects... and it's rather easy. Configure Desktop > Desktop > Enable desktop effects It's a check box. Remove the check and no more transparencies, fancy animated minimize/maximize, etc., etc.

It's pretty hard to disable the effect of having something removed. :-) Leslie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 6. Dezember 2009 12:35:52 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

That being so, there is need of something that adjust "bling" to machine speed and capabilities; both automatic and manual. Users with older machines can then simple disable effects clicking a button or sliding a rule pointer.

There is a plasmoid that lets you switch effects on/off and SHIFT+ALT+F12. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/06/09 09:37, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Putting 11.2 on all computers in a company a few weeks after it was released...I better don't comment that and its implications. Sorry because of a late reply, but I have been out of office whole week...

As a seasoned Linux user and administrator, I feel very comfortable putting new Linux versions from Suse onto anything, because I have been following 11.2 development from alpha stages, and never had any REAL problems on my PC and my laptop. And a few weeks is enough time to see if something is good or bad. But I really didn't think my co-workers would find it so user-unfriendly.

BTW, KDE4 with desktop effects enabled runs _very_ smooth on a MSI Wind netbook with intel graphics here and even better on an Athlon 4000+ with 2GB RAM and a NVIDIA 7600. Go figure.

It may run smooth, but it is annoying to watch all those unneeded effects for more than 15 minutes... Everybody I know has turned them off the first day. On the same day, Carlos E. R. wrote>

Nobody ever claimed that KDE's users are a static group so while KDE4 attracts new users it will also drive away those that do not like the change

It is just bad that it drives away experienced Linux people, and (maybe) attracts first time users who never knew better.... Best regards, Siniša Bandin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org