After seeing some of the negative comments about 10.1 on the list, especially about the package manager, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say something positive. Anyway, I'd just like to say thank you to Andreas Jaeger and the team, they have worked really hard and have had to put up with us beta testers shoving bucket fulls of new bugzilla tickets under their noses... Robert Love and Michael Gross worked very hard on getting the NFS attachment under the new network manager with DHCP working. Likewise Christian Boltz, Klaus Kaempf, Marcus Schaefer, Stanislav Visnovsky, Stefan Dirsch, Steffan Hundhammer, Harald Mueller-Ney, Ladislav Slezak, Thorsten Kukuk, Jens Daniel Schmidt, Stephan Binner, Edith Parzefall, Christoph Tiel, Andreas Klein, Mauro Parra Miranda, Tambet Ingo, Martin Vidner, Marcel Hilzinger all worked hard to get 10.1 into shape around the faults I found. And to Lukas Ocilka for always trying to get my changes put into 10.2 :-D I'm sure I've missed out some of the people who worked on the bugs with me - that was just a quick look back through my bugzilla entries... So sorry if you are not listed, nothing personal ;-) And to all the others who helped getting this release into shape, but who I haven't interacted with directly... And of course, who could forget houghi, he always seems to be there in the thick of things with the makeDVD script :-D Thank you! Dave -- "I got to go figure," the tenant said. "We all got to figure. There's some way to stop this. It's not like lightning or earthquakes. We've got a bad thing made by men, and by God that's something we can change." - The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck
David Wright wrote:
After seeing some of the negative comments about 10.1 on the list, especially about the package manager, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say something positive.
Anyway, I'd just like to say thank you to Andreas Jaeger and the team, they have worked really hard and have had to put up with us beta testers shoving bucket fulls of new bugzilla tickets under their noses...
Robert Love and Michael Gross worked very hard on getting the NFS attachment under the new network manager with DHCP working.
Likewise Christian Boltz, Klaus Kaempf, Marcus Schaefer, Stanislav Visnovsky, Stefan Dirsch, Steffan Hundhammer, Harald Mueller-Ney, Ladislav Slezak, Thorsten Kukuk, Jens Daniel Schmidt, Stephan Binner, Edith Parzefall, Christoph Tiel, Andreas Klein, Mauro Parra Miranda, Tambet Ingo, Martin Vidner, Marcel Hilzinger all worked hard to get 10.1 into shape around the faults I found.
And to Lukas Ocilka for always trying to get my changes put into 10.2 :-D
I'm sure I've missed out some of the people who worked on the bugs with me - that was just a quick look back through my bugzilla entries... So sorry if you are not listed, nothing personal ;-)
And to all the others who helped getting this release into shape, but who I haven't interacted with directly...
And of course, who could forget houghi, he always seems to be there in the thick of things with the makeDVD script :-D
Thank you!
Dave
Indeed, thank you! This is release is a superb achievement and one that will make a big difference for the Mono community. Thank you very much. Paco
On Saturday 13 May 2006 12:30, David Wright wrote:
After seeing some of the negative comments about 10.1 on the list, especially about the package manager, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say something positive.
You know the funny thing is that even if something is better, people are always resistant to change. It's just human nature. I would argue that there is room for improvement, performance wise, with the new package manager and update stack but I am enjoying being able to configure my workstation software from the command line with rug... "rug install foo-package" who can complain about that? A sterling effort by all the SUSE team, well done! Cheers G
Graham Anderson wrote:
I would argue that there is room for improvement, performance wise, with the new package manager and update stack but I am enjoying being able to configure my workstation software from the command line with rug...
"rug install foo-package" who can complain about that?
May I point out that this was possible in all SUSE Linux versions with "yast2 -i foo-package". Regards, Carl-Daniel -- http://www.hailfinger.org/
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
Graham Anderson wrote:
I would argue that there is room for improvement, performance wise, with the new package manager and update stack but I am enjoying being able to configure my workstation software from the command line with rug...
"rug install foo-package" who can complain about that?
May I point out that this was possible in all SUSE Linux versions with "yast2 -i foo-package".
Regards, Carl-Daniel could you document this in the wiki. I'm already starting a page "commandline yast" (but in french, sorry)
http://fr.opensuse.org/Les_équivalents_ligne_de_commande_de_Yast and there are some SDB article as well. Yast is in fact poorly documented and underestimated :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 12:40:56PM +0100, Graham Anderson wrote:
You know the funny thing is that even if something is better, people are always resistant to change. It's just human nature.
You would think so, yet there are thousands out there who have a perfectly well running 10.0 and are going to upgrade to 10.1 for no apparent reason. :-) houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
On 5/13/06, David Wright
I'd just like to say thank you to Andreas Jaeger and the team, they have worked really hard and have had to put up with us beta testers shoving bucket fulls of new bugzilla tickets under their noses...
Robert Love and Michael Gross worked very hard on getting the NFS attachment under the new network manager with DHCP working.
Likewise Christian Boltz, Klaus Kaempf, Marcus Schaefer, Stanislav Visnovsky, Stefan Dirsch, Steffan Hundhammer, Harald Mueller-Ney, Ladislav Slezak, Thorsten Kukuk, Jens Daniel Schmidt, Stephan Binner, Edith Parzefall, Christoph Tiel, Andreas Klein, Mauro Parra Miranda, Tambet Ingo, Martin Vidner, Marcel Hilzinger all worked hard to get 10.1 into shape around the faults I found.
And to Lukas Ocilka for always trying to get my changes put into 10.2 :-D
I totally agree with Dave. I often read (but don't post) to the group and have found the freshness and willingness of the OpenSuSE project fantastic compared to other such projects. I came on board to SuSE at 9.3 ... having been a RH user since the wee early days. (been using Linux since '94). Was totally blown away by 9.3 for it's professional 'polish' and have since converted dozens across to the SuSE goodness. :) No looking back I'm here for the long haul. Once my work committements free a bit -- I would like to spend a bit more time and get involved more actively in the project... Well done to all involved in the 10.1 release... some nice items in there. Now -- if AMD can get their AMD-V (Pacifica) chips released -- I could run a decent Xen. :-P
On Saturday 13 May 2006 13:30, David Wright wrote:
After seeing some of the negative comments about 10.1 on the list, especially about the package manager, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say something positive.
Since I guess I'm one of the proponents for "negative comments" I'd like to clarify I few things. I still believe that the package manager will cause serious problems for a lot of people - certainly for anybody adding a lot of 3rd party repos which aren't signed. Any noob is going to be very confused and scared stiff about those constant warnings. Another example - downloaded single RPMs - I downloaded libdvdutil - right click on it > install with zen .. didn't work.. tried right click > install with yast didn't work. Had to install with rpm -i. Downloaded Opera 9beta rpm. Installed with either YaST or Zen (I'm not sure which one anymore) with Right click > install with.. .. you know what happened? Opera 8.5x was installed from the non-oss repo - including a patch from the update source.. had to use rpm -Uhv to get my Opera9beta. Also we are going to have a lot of happy go lucky people who've upgraded without any reflection complaining about no nvidia-update, rt2500 and Atheros not working, problems with ndiswrapper/networkmanager etc. This doesn't mean I don't agree with the changes made. I do - I believe Zen, Rug and YaST software management will complement each other perfectly (in 10.2). I also think it was right to remove binary only kernel modules. Once Nvidia and ATI have KMPs things will look better etc. I know the reasons for these changes - and I don't blame the developers for the problems - I agree that everybody has been great - and I have greatly enjoyed taking part in this development process. I'm only saying thatI think Novell (as well as the openSUSE, that's us btw) should be prepared to do some damage control - and put a damper on people's expectations for 10.1. Do some damage control - or else I fear that the state of 10.1 can seriously damage SUSEs reputation in the long run. I don't know about Dave but I spend a lot of time helping noobs - on IRC and various Danish forums. And I've already encountered a substantial number of people with different packagemanager problems - or who are shocked that there's no Nvidia update - and of course we've already had someone here on this list who was very surprised that his rt2500 didn't work any more. Again - my point is regarding how we promote 10.1 only - it is in now way whatsoever meant to be criticism of the devs. I have the greatest appreciation for the effort they've made in getting 10.1 as close to ready as it is. Martin / cb400f
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 04:18:34PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
I'm only saying thatI think Novell (as well as the openSUSE, that's us btw) should be prepared to do some damage control - and put a damper on people's expectations for 10.1. Do some damage control - or else I fear that the state of 10.1 can seriously damage SUSEs reputation in the long run.
I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" all the time. Still people install each and every version that comes along and complain at the same time that they are forced to upgrade so often. Sigh. I am waiting for my box to arrive and then first do a trial install and then decide wether I will install it or just sit this one out. For me from what I see there is no real need to go from 10.0 to 10.1. 10.0 is still a great distro. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Hi, On Saturday 13 May 2006 07:48, houghi wrote:
...
I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" all the time. Still people install each and every version that comes along and complain at the same time that they are forced to upgrade so often. Sigh.
Well, keep in mind that Novell / SuSE have only a 2-year commitment to each release. Those who require package updates and don't want or have the ability to build everything themselves are pretty much forced to upgrade. I also find that my promiscuous exploration of new software tends to make my system rather crufty after not too many months, so I welcome the new releases as an opportunity for a fresh start. I never do update installations, though. I always perform a clean installation on newly initialized partitions or disks, keeping the old root directory around at least long enough to serve as a reference for configurations and settings and as a fallback in case of trouble. This time I'm going to install 10.1 under Parallels on my MacBook Pro.
...
houghi
Randall Schulz
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 08:10:18AM -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Hi,
On Saturday 13 May 2006 07:48, houghi wrote:
...
I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" all the time. Still people install each and every version that comes along and complain at the same time that they are forced to upgrade so often. Sigh.
Well, keep in mind that Novell / SuSE have only a 2-year commitment to each release. Those who require package updates and don't want or have the ability to build everything themselves are pretty much forced to upgrade.
OK, after two years. Not after 6 months (10.0). If the distribution is not suported anymore, I consider that 'broke'. If it is broke, you need to fix it, but (wait for it) ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
houghi wrote:
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 08:10:18AM -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Hi,
On Saturday 13 May 2006 07:48, houghi wrote:
...
I say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" all the time. Still people install each and every version that comes along and complain at the same time that they are forced to upgrade so often. Sigh.
Well, keep in mind that Novell / SuSE have only a 2-year commitment to each release. Those who require package updates and don't want or have the ability to build everything themselves are pretty much forced to upgrade.
OK, after two years. Not after 6 months (10.0). If the distribution is not suported anymore, I consider that 'broke'. If it is broke, you need to fix it, but (wait for it) ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
houghi
Hi, 10.0 ain't broke ;-) but what could i do else express a Big thank you for all who are in this journey, at whatever level. That could be included in the thread "First Impressions" too, except did not upgraded yet on a machine to tell more. For now, reserving all resources for seeding the torrents... (5+1 CDs) And for "breakin'" a test machine with 10.1 first, i would rather prefer to makeSUSEdvd with houghi's script :-) BTW, the idea 5+1+Multimedia is a great DVD to have (maybe a little more tricky to host (legal issues?), but one can tailor its needs) :-) People who like "all-in-one" solutions will appreciate... For the weekend, few chances are to test, but people, it's seeding out there!!! Thanks again for all, PatrickM
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 04:57:58PM +0100, PatrickM wrote:
BTW, the idea 5+1+Multimedia is a great DVD to have (maybe a little more tricky to host (legal issues?), but one can tailor its needs) :-) People who like "all-in-one" solutions will appreciate...
I don't have the bandwith to do it, nor the time to test such a DVD and see if it actually works. What _might_ be done is: 1) makeSUSEdvd -i -a /rpm/dir That puts all the stuff in one directory 2) delete redundant RPMs 3) makeSUSEdvd -C 4) Test to see if all is well. But perhaps a standard `makeSUSEdvd -a /dir/to/RPMs` works as well. Please not that this can also be used for e.g. company usable DVDs or schoolprojects or whatever. As log as you have a workable RPM, you can add it to the ISO. Even if you have just a smaller RPM and only need CD1, you can run makeSUSEdvd on it and burn the ISO as a CD. I can imagine that a company or school has some specific software that they want to distribute as well. If you only need CD1-3 pluse some from CD6, there is plenty to place. Or somebody who writes a book, to include tests, and hand-on examples. OK, enough about makeSUSEdvd. I just peeked and it looks as if 50% of the postings is about makeSUSEdvd and it should be about openSUSE. :-/ houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
houghi wrote:
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 04:57:58PM +0100, PatrickM wrote:
BTW, the idea 5+1+Multimedia is a great DVD to have (maybe a little more tricky to host (legal issues?), but one can tailor its needs) :-) People who like "all-in-one" solutions will appreciate...
I can imagine that a company or school has some specific software that they want to distribute as well. If you only need CD1-3 pluse some from CD6, there is plenty to place.
Or somebody who writes a book, to include tests, and hand-on examples.
OK, enough about makeSUSEdvd. I just peeked and it looks as if 50% of the postings is about makeSUSEdvd and it should be about openSUSE. :-/
houghi
Hi houghi, precisely. But having makeSUSEdvd *is* about openSUSE. In the past, when i distributed to friends, at work, etc. 5 CDs, there was a kind of "Ok, thanks", but it was dissuasive to DJ for some people. While having *just one* single support, people are more likely to use it. Just noticed that. Personally, i used and use CDs set only when there is no DVD player, like an older laptop. Of course, networking exists, but what about when you are away? So i have to bring all the CD span set. When it will be needed 5 DVDs, maybe we'll start thinking about *one* new media, etc. etc. So houghi, OK for your final note, but being easily customizable *and* distributable is a value i appreciate. Cheers, PatrickM
PatrickM wrote:
When it will be needed 5 DVDs, maybe we'll start thinking about *one* new media, etc. etc.
don't forget DVd is not the final media. usb key is probably the next very used one, with > 1 gb being cheap the 300Mb HD I have will soon be key size :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos
On 5/14/06, houghi
OK, enough about makeSUSEdvd. I just peeked and it looks as if 50% of the postings is about makeSUSEdvd and it should be about openSUSE. :-/
Yes, maybe we should create an opensuse-makeSUSEdvd mailing list? Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
On 5/14/06, Andreas
Am Sonntag, den 14.05.2006, 17:46 +1000 schrieb Peter Flodin:
Yes, maybe we should create an opensuse-makeSUSEdvd mailing list?
Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
I second that.
-- Andreas
I was joking (mostly), but we do seem to be missing an opensuse-development or opensuse-developer mailing list. opensuse-factory is for discussion about the development version of SUSE, opensuse-packaging is about packaging software but there is no clear place to discuss development of software on or for SUSE and issues thereof. Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
On Sun, May 14, 2006 at 10:07:18PM +1000, Peter Flodin wrote:
I was joking (mostly), but we do seem to be missing an opensuse-development or opensuse-developer mailing list. opensuse-factory is for discussion about the development version of SUSE, opensuse-packaging is about packaging software but there is no clear place to discuss development of software on or for SUSE and issues thereof.
Indeed. Could we not just start using factory for that and if it needs be make a seperate list? Many opensuse-development things would crossover with factory anyway and people must be subscribed to both lists as well. Also for the factory readers it will be interesting to see what others are working on and where there are problems to be expected. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
On Sun, May 14, 2006 at 01:36:35AM -0700, Andreas wrote:
Am Sonntag, den 14.05.2006, 17:46 +1000 schrieb Peter Flodin:
Yes, maybe we should create an opensuse-makeSUSEdvd mailing list?
Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin
I second that.
I disagree. I believe most of the makeSUSEdvd should be in opensuse-factory or suse-linux-e as they are technical questions. Or if they are improvement or sugestions they should go to the maintainer, me. houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
Am Samstag, 13. Mai 2006 16:18 schrieb Martin Schlander:
On Saturday 13 May 2006 13:30, David Wright wrote:
After seeing some of the negative comments about 10.1 on the list, especially about the package manager, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say something positive.
Since I guess I'm one of the proponents for "negative comments" I'd like to clarify I few things.
I still believe that the package manager will cause serious problems for a lot of people - certainly for anybody adding a lot of 3rd party repos which aren't signed. Any noob is going to be very confused and scared stiff about those constant warnings. I agree, but not because of the warning. Those dialogs you can easily switch off. The problem is, that YaST and zen-* are not always synchron. And it's very hard to get rid of sources, which were not properly signed..
Guess there will be lot's of online updates ;-)
Another example - downloaded single RPMs - I downloaded libdvdutil - right click on it > install with zen .. didn't work.. tried right click > install with yast didn't work. Had to install with rpm -i. Install with YaST from Konqueror is broken. Known bug. But install with zen works fine for me (yes, I was surprised ;-)
Downloaded Opera 9beta rpm. Installed with either YaST or Zen (I'm not sure which one anymore) with Right click > install with.. .. you know what happened? Opera 8.5x was installed from the non-oss repo - including a patch from the update source.. had to use rpm -Uhv to get my Opera9beta.
Also we are going to have a lot of happy go lucky people who've upgraded without any reflection complaining about no nvidia-update, rt2500 and Atheros not working, problems with ndiswrapper/networkmanager etc. rt24xx and rt25xx was not Suses fault. Afaik they do not compile with kernel 2.6.16. Networkmanager is one of the best things in 10.1 for me. As I often change the AP, life is now much easier. It still needs improvement, but setup over YaST was just years behind modern operating systems....
This doesn't mean I don't agree with the changes made. I do - I believe Zen, Rug and YaST software management will complement each other perfectly (in 10.2). I also think it was right to remove binary only kernel modules. Once Nvidia and ATI have KMPs things will look better etc. I know the reasons for these changes - and I don't blame the developers for the problems - I agree that everybody has been great - and I have greatly enjoyed taking part in this development process.
I'm only saying thatI think Novell (as well as the openSUSE, that's us btw) should be prepared to do some damage control - and put a damper on people's expectations for 10.1. Do some damage control - or else I fear that the state of 10.1 can seriously damage SUSEs reputation in the long run. I think some of us (me:-) wanted a new, great package manager for 10.1. And instead of this great new package manager we got some development tools, which will now be tested by the masses. The chances for 10.2 are there. Let's see.
Imagine zen-installer, zen-remover and zen-updater within one window with tabs. That could already be called a package manager without coding more than 10 lines ;-) So Suse has plenty of time now to improve the package management... -- Üdvözlettel -- Mit freundlichen Grüssen, Marcel Hilzinger
Thanks a lot for this feedback, I forwarded it to all developers in case they are not reading it here! Cheers, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Thanks a lot for this feedback, I forwarded it to all developers in case they are not reading it here! Cheers, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Sat, May 13, 2006 at 04:40:08PM +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Thanks a lot for this feedback, I forwarded it to all developers in case they are not reading it here!
I can understand that they are not reading here. However I hope they read opensuse-factory. :-) OK, now the big wait for june 16th. :-D houghi -- Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun - Johannes Müller-Elmau
David Wright wrote:
After seeing some of the negative comments about 10.1 on the list, especially about the package manager, I thought I'd take this opportunity to say something positive.
On the whole, I agree heartily - 10.1 seems a clear improvement in a number of ways, and the team managed to introduce some big changes rather smoothly. I have no problem migrating all my 10.0 and 9.3 machines to 10.1, and look forward to sled10 and sles10 for the business desktop and data center, where they stand to gain some ground. The one thing that has a really unfinished feel to it is the Xgl. I love it, it's great eye candy, and it makes windoze users salivate with envy. But the overall integration into the system is a kludge - meaning that I can have the eye candy and ultra snappy GUI, or I can use DRI, (e.g. 3D FPS) - but to move between the two activities requires a reconfiguration and restart of the X server - hardly something joe six-pack will want to deal with (unless someone knows a clever shortcut to start up a separate xorg server from within an xgl session) Also, I noticed that a lot of games (frozen bubble etc) don't work on the xgl desktop. I trust that Novell/SuSE will be employing their considerable resources to help work this out, and make the Xgl-DRI interoperability more seamless, because when that happens, this GUI will be second to none. The present situation is quite promising, with only this one glitch which mars an otherwise ideal GUI experience. Joe
participants (15)
-
Andreas -
Andreas Jaeger -
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger -
David Wright -
Francisco T. Martinez -
Graham Anderson -
houghi -
J Sloan -
jdd -
Marcel Hilzinger -
Martin Schlander -
Matt Bottrell -
PatrickM -
Peter Flodin -
Randall R Schulz