-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-11-18 15:03, Oddball wrote:

Op 18-11-12 13:48, Carlos E. R. schreef:

...

The tty is in init3 of course, so no mouse there.

I insist, mouse there. Start gpm. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlCo66QACgkQja8UbcUWM1xd+QD/YzzxXcndTlrSXHQGEwgOvuac M/84grGAU/7Ukomuu9gA/1QI6FGIhHPMllC2XTKtwovsGJcA7BU2+jhfYMmhVCdU =jkG3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> [11-18-12 09:50]:

Op 18-11-12 15:07, Carlos E. R. schreef:

...

On 2012-11-18 15:03, Oddball wrote:

...

Op 18-11-12 13:48, Carlos E. R. schreef:

...

The tty is in init3 of course, so no mouse there. I insist, mouse there. Start gpm.

There is no prompt that says: EeePc-Rob-SFN9:/home/oddball #, just a dash at the start, at the place where 'E' from Eee-Pc is... When i have a prompt that looks normal, in another tty, and i enter 'gpm', the prompt returns, but no mouse present. I have an usb mouse, and touchpad disabled in init5. Is it also disabled in init3 than?

Since you appear uninterested in researching the information or proper use of the commands, take a picture of the screen with your cell-phone and transcribe the information to a text file. rcgpm start systemctl start gpm.service /etc/init.d/gpm start man tee man gpm man init google yahoo duckduckgo bang did you also disable the touchpad in init3? Why do you ask if you performed the action to disable it in init5? You did read what action you were performing? Did you try reversing that action to see if it affected init3? ps: the system is *not* stupid but only able to do what *you* tell it to providing you tell it in a manner that it can understand. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012-11-18 15:03 (GMT+0100) Oddball composed:

So i assume the text can not be captured at this time?

I've never found a solution for what you want to do. It may be that the programs gpm or screen can enable it, but I've never investigated those. I use one of three workarounds to get tty content into a file. 1-switch to X, run the same commands in Konsole, then copy and paste to a file 2-use the up arrow to put the previous command onto cmdline, append redirection, then <ENTER> (This is similar to what follows in #3, but is limited to one command at a time) 3-utilize the content of ~/.bash_history to run the same commands with redirection to put their output into a file As example of #3, say you want the output from the last 5 tty commands. Then: A: log out then back in to bring .bash_history current B: # tail -n5 $HOME/.bash_history > $HOME/hist.sh C: edit $HOME/hist.sh. To do this I F4, as I'm doing it all in midnight commander to start with, not a naked shell prompt. While editing, the existing lines can be copied and converted to comment lines so that it's easy to tell in the resulting output file where output from the various commands begin and end. You can add or delete commands as well. The key point in editing is to add the redirection to each uncommented line. The first line gets '> somefilename'. All the others get '>> somefilename'. You may find some commands need &> or &>> or other special redirection syntax. If you want somefilename to land in a particular place, then you need to use a full pathname each time. D: sh $HOME/hist.sh After D: you'll have a somefilename containing the same output you originally had on the tty, subject to whatever modifications and redirect syntax errors you may have made while editing, and with command prompts absent. $HOME is unnecessary above, except for its first instance in B: unless you're in $HOME to start with, if you want hist.sh to be in the current directory instead of where you know you'll be able to find it later. Obviously, repeating everything in Konsole so that you can copy and paste to a file is easier than my script workaround. The script workaround is most useful when you need to repeat the process later and/or on other machines, same as with scripts generally. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

It would appear that on Nov 19, Oddball did say:

Which is able to copy text and paste it in another tty, however, there is no way to get it to a terminal or textfile in init5.

Not directly perhaps... I have used a simple kludge for that... When I have something on a tty {lets say tty1} that I want to copy, I use the alt+Fkey shortcut to switch to another tty {lets say tty2} and login again. then {on tty2} I'd use vim {or whatever console editor you like} to edit a file {lets say $HOME/ttySnipage.txt} Then using alt+F1, I'd switch back to the tty with the interesting output, mark the interesting text with gpm. {which automatically puts the marked text in gpm's buffer} Then using alt+F2, I'd switch back to the file editing session and paste the "interesting text" into the edited file. Save the file. Then when you get to "init5" open a Konsole or other terminal of your choice, and using an editor (This time you can use a gui editor.) Open the file. Perhaps with: kwrite $HOME/ttySnipage.txt Now you can use the mouse in X to copy and paste the content elsewhere. Or, if your using a gui editor like kwrite, you can most likely mark the text with shifted cursor keys and use ctrl+C & ctrl+V to copy and paste the content to another gui window...

So, i will take a closer look at your 'manual'... ;-) (thanks for your input..)

I note that some of the other posters seem to think you are not actually reading the {expletive deleted} manuals. But what I think I'm seeing is somebody having a hard time understanding the {many expletives deleted} manuals. I know that I almost always have a hard time understanding what they mean myself. I mean I can usually use them to remind me of something I used to know. But if they wanted me to actually learn something new from them, they would do better to include many more actual usage examples, instead of just describing the usage in such highly technical terms that it often merely confuse me. If I'm right all I can say is keep plugging, eventually you'll at least learn some of it. But they are right too. The "man pages" and "info documents" are usually your best source of information on a command. Unfortunately they seem to be written like college text books, with the expectation that the student will be guided by some professor or some such thing. good luck. -- JtWdyP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/19/2012 10:32 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-11-19 11:26, JtWdyP wrote:

...

I note that some of the other posters seem to think you are not actually reading the {expletive deleted} manuals. But what I think I'm seeing is somebody having a hard time understanding the {many expletives deleted} manuals.

No expletive. It means "Fabulous" ;-)

...

I know that I almost always have a hard time understanding what they mean myself. I mean I can usually use them to remind me of something I used to know. But if they wanted me to actually learn something new from them, they would do better to include many more actual usage examples, instead of just describing the usage in such highly technical terms that it often merely confuse me.

Yes, man pages are guides for some one that already knows how to use the program in question. Most of them, anyway, with notable exceptions like procmail(ex). Howtos are much better.

...

If I'm right all I can say is keep plugging, eventually you'll at least learn some of it. But they are right too. The "man pages" and "info documents" are usually your best source of information on a command. Unfortunately they seem to be written like college text books, with the expectation that the student will be guided by some professor or some such thing.

Yes.

Man pages job is to be accurate above all else. You usually can't be accurate and at the same time be easy to read. They must not say anything that is untrue. In that sense they end up sounding like "legalese" or the way practically every scientist talks. How-to's are nice, and necessary, but they cannot be accurate, because how-to's, in the interest of being easier to follow, simply leave a lot out and make a lot of arbitrary assumptions. That makes them only true for the one specific situation and context they happen to be describing, and wrong for for every other infinite situation. They narrow the infinite possibilities down to one single example. The example is nice, but the example is not the definition. In real life there are very few absolutes, so the accurate description of how a program works is chock full of relative references and almost no absolutes. That makes it hard to read for the inexperienced because every other word is a variable instead of a simple value. It's like reading math equations instead of prose. Well that's entirely appropriate since this is a computer not a novel. A how-to says "run this command" and gives some string of stuff for you to copy like a monkey. But that is wrong because that example is not "how you do it", it is just one of infinite ways to do it, and it is the wrong way if taken outside of the context that was either set up, or worse just assumed, by the howto itself. A how-to says, "remove foot from brake pedal, depress gas pedal" The manual must never do that. If you read something in the manual and do it, and it's wrong, you will howl and curse the author for lying to you and causing your machine to crash and erase your data. If you read the above in a manual, and did it, you could run over a cat or crash into a building etc. The manual must only ever simply describe what the brake pedal does, what the gas pedal does, and all the other knobs and levers. It's up to you to decide when and where it's time to press the gas and time to press the brake by having the knowledge of what they both do. Sometimes they do include a few skeletal examples but they can't realistically do more than that. Consider "man bash". bash is not merely a program but a whole programming language which can do anything. How can you give a how-to and examples for bash? It would go on for infinity. Read every shell script on your system, then read every shell script you can find on the net by google, they are all correct how-to's for bash. They are great for mining examples out of, but the manual needs to be distilled down to the rules, and then you use those rules however you want. The manual can't tell you how to employ the rules it's describing any more than a dictionary can tell you how to write a document, whether to follow the form of a letter or an article or a poem or a novel. What words to use in what order. The dictionary can't know what your needs are at the moment. Not all programs are as infinite as bash, but most are flexible enough that their man pages will have more variables than absolutes, and all of them are run within the context of the unix system, which itself is highly mutable and affects every program used within it. "cat" or "dd" only do one tiny dead simple thing, and yet even they can't be described in absolutes. If you gave an example "How to read the first 512 bytes of the boot block with dd: 'dd if=/dev/sda bs=512 count=1 |od |less' Every single thing there except "dd" and "bs=512 count=1" is wrong for some and right for some. Welcome to computers. Or at least, welcome to a computing environment that actually gives you choices and power. Simpler systems exist that are easier to learn, and they simply do less. Here you can do practically anything, and the trade-off is, you have to learn how to assemble the answer to your unique wishes out of tools and parts. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-11-19 16:52, Anton Aylward wrote:

Many man pages do give examples, but that is not their purpose. If they were how-to manuals they would be endless, and some of the 'technical dry' pages are long enough as it is!

Simply split the manual in two, like procmail does. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlCqVyQACgkQja8UbcUWM1yHUQD+JOBYJRd+Jdd/hE13C/BgtBQo 6igjrGuFqWKzWb1KB4AA+gKlN+WIa2uneKUJDkjnRv50zs4hDASMYE8wD5py0pHp =1AvT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/19/2012 09:52 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

<snip> Many do when the come to Linux. See below.

<snip>

Many man pages do give examples, but that is not their purpose. If they were how-to manuals they would be endless, and some of the 'technical dry' pages are long enough as it is!

Please don't confuse purpose.

Yes. 'how-to' publications are valuable; but references are important to and those should be short and to the point.

...

<snip> What you are saying, and what I can empathise with, is that Linux is a different culture. I have a similar problem with Windows or VM/CMS or the times I have to deal with other IBM systems :-( The underlying assumptions about what Is and Is Not and How Things Are Done is just to different. I once nearly came to blows with a Tandem Non-Stop admin until someone told me that on the Tandem all network serves are carried out by a single non-forking process. The model behind many other OSs is that processes don't fork because forking is too 'expensive'.

I've dealt with *NIX documentation for so long that documentation for other systems, even Windows, seems difficult to understand.

I suppose I'd have problems If I moved to China, Japan. Heck, I had enough problems in France and they drive on the same side of the road as we do here in Canada! And heck, in England people walk on the pavement!

But please, please, please, don't complain about the lack of 'how-to' guides when there are plenty included in the system documentation and there are more just a google away.

The issue with the {expletive deleted} manuals is that for a non-technical, ignorant, noob they are not written well. Most are written by the person that does the programming [ or at least that is my impression ]. The person my be the most fantastic, super, programmer in the world but they can't write manuals that non-technical, ignorant, noobs can understand. I can do a man [ whatever ] and spend hours trying to decipher what is presented. Might as well be written in Martian. Gogle will sometimes bring up something that is at least written in some earthly language. At least partially readable. Once in a while Google will find something that is written in plain, simple noob english. -- “The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets.” — Will Rogers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/19/2012 11:44 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

The issue with the {expletive deleted} manuals is that for a non-technical, ignorant, noob they are not written well. Most are written by the person that does the programming [ or at least that is my impression ]. The person my be the most fantastic, super, programmer in the world but they can't write manuals that non-technical, ignorant, noobs can understand. Once again I say that you have confused purpose. The manuals are a technical reference and are meant to be a minimalist

Billie Walsh said the following on 11/19/2012 11:19 AM: though sometimes of necessity there is a lot to document) one in a very prosaic and fixed format. They are not meant to be how-to guides. Since you are complaining that they are dry, technical and not in literate English, then they meet their design constraints and I feel that is good. The problem is that you are expecting MAN pages to be something they are not, and that his 'how-to' guides, ones that lead you though "Frequent Used Examples".

But, time after time when someone like me posts a question about something the first thing that is posted is to either "RTFM" [Read The Fine Manual ], or to do a "man [whatever]". As a general rule neither of those answers is helpful and a complete waste of bandwidth. I can't speak for everyone else in the world, but if I ask a question about 99.99% of the time I have googled, and all the other banal answers, and I'm still stuck. -- “The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets.” — Will Rogers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh said the following on 11/19/2012 01:12 PM:

I can't speak for everyone else in the world, but if I ask a question about 99.99% of the time I have googled, and all the other banal answers, and I'm still stuck.

The say so. Others do. -- Things are more like they are now than they ever were before. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/20/2012 12:43 PM, JtWdyP wrote:

But sometimes I can find something useful. The "included in the system" guides are another matter. I can't seem to find them.

How does one do that anyway??

have a look in /usr/share/doc, especially /usr/share/doc/packages.. if you get tired of stumbling around in the HUGE number of info, you can use locate and grep to quick find stuff.. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-11-21 20:44, Brian K. White wrote:

I use a mnemonic phrase: "real fake"

Name of the Target - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlCtbAUACgkQja8UbcUWM1z5iwEAiFfc3ZBMjXQNwHTv0PxH+YLr PD4x+vRuSiSpnAdwFoYA/RlfIccq+CaC4/OrvX90konHfJ1Jjomy6liXX5ek0Hj3 =eydy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> [11-19-12 13:10]: ...

(i know i have to 'trim' the quotes, as Carlos, and maybe others do not want to read things twice, or are in a terrible hurry... but, sometimes it is more work to trim the quotes, than just scroll down, so for this time i am not going to mutilate this text...)

It's about being respectful of others and consideration, not about *your* time. *You* are imposing on other's time to solve *your* problems even thou the others are volunteering.

And i have had, often and much, very good help here, no doubt about that. It is just that sometimes the trend is: We have to help, but we don't like to, so we put the 'asker of questions' down, and make him read, tons and tons of literature, because he will have nothing else to do, than come, and ask questions on this list...

It you think that, your time is ill spent here and our's is completely wasted!

But: This is not for all of them. Sometimes they get carried away, but some, really try to understand what you try to establish, and give plain and simple, true answers. I am not going to name anyone.

Come'on now, call a spade a spade.

For me, i am sometimes in a hurry too. I want something, but that doesn't work the way i want, and i read and search, and before i know it the day is gone...

An educations is usually time costly :^)

I used to repair cars when i was young. I was very good at it. I'd like to repair old English sports-cars. From that time, i remember that there was absolutely no use in reading the workshop engine repair-manual, unless for the job you actually were performing at that time, that specific section. Measurements, torques, order to take apart, or put together, that kind of stuff... You have to have the manuals handy at all times, that is true. But read them like that, is like reading a phone-book.

Perhaps you would accomplish more with less embellishment of your posts and more staying to the *specific* subject. :^) Language deos not seem to be a problem, but comprehension and following directions does. After all, it's about having *fun*. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 11/19/2012 01:07 PM:

It is just that sometimes the trend is: We have to help, but we don't like to, so we put the 'asker of questions' down, and make him read, tons and tons of literature, because he will have nothing else to do, than come, and ask questions on this list...

Your real problem, I think, is that you want answers, whereas most of the people here want to teach you how to use Linux. There's the old saying Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Just so with point answers to your questions vs how to use the documentation. Its not about putting you down, its about encouraging you to learn and be able to cope for yourself without having to use us a crutch. -- Every civilization that has ever existed has ultimately collapsed. -- Henry Kissinger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/20/2012 08:20 AM, Oddball wrote:

I do not want to know how to invent a wheel, i just want to use one.

i don't work here, so this is all just my opinion: ok, so you just want _use_ openSUSE...no problem, except who will be your System Administrator/superuser/root? the System Administrator _does_ have to invent a wheel or two from time to time *or* have a System Administrator handy to do that for those who wish to "just use" a wheel (or a Linux system)..

What is the point here? You have a list for what? To tell people not to use it?

no, the list is to point System Administrators not completely familiar with openSUSE in the right direction so they can increase their understanding and capability in administering the openSUSE systems under their control..

If i want to have an openSUSE question answered, i go to this list: opensuse@opensuse.org

but "How to get tty stdout to a file?" is *not* an openSUSE question.. also *not* a Ubuntu or Red Hat or Fedora or Mint or or or or question.. instead, it _clearly_ is a basic, foundational, required base of knowledge of routine BASH techniques, procedures, recognized common (safe) practices with Linux which is needed by System Administrators no matter the distro being administered.. hand feeding any (not just you) individual _user_ the basics of system administration is *not* what this forum is about.. there are millions of words on the net to help you learn the basics, here are a very _few_ of them--some better than others: http://rute.2038bug.com/ http://www.linux-tutorial.info/index.php http://tille.garrels.be/training/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard http://tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/ http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/ http://tille.garrels.be/training/tldp/ http://www.scribd.com/doc/12918020/Linux-Starter-Pack and there are uncountable non-disto specific forums when folks learn basics, found from here: https://www.google.dk/search?q=forum+to+learn+basic+linux and, do not forget there are also colleges, universities and tech-schools that teach basic Linux courses....there are probably online courses you can take, some free and some costly.. but, when you have an openSUSE question, needing an openSUSE answer, feel free to seek help here while following this how-to-ask guide http://tinyurl.com/anel

So get used to it, and if you do not want to answer my questions, just ignore them.

ok. but, while openSUSE questions are fair here, either learn the basics, or hire a System Administrator to care and feed your system...those are the choices... if you just wanna be a user then there _are_ system administrators with spare time on their hands....i know a guy in Slovenia who will (or at least he used to) be available to administer your laptop or multiple racks of machines in any distant server farm, he could touch via ssh/etc....i do not know his hourly rate today.. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 20-11-12 14:28, Anton Aylward schreef:

DenverD said the following on 11/20/2012 07:52 AM:

...

but, when you have an openSUSE question, needing an openSUSE answer, feel free to seek help here while following this how-to-ask guide

http://tinyurl.com/anel

...

...

So get used to it, and if you do not want to answer my questions, just ignore them. I note in Eric's paper

<quote> Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offence. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy. <quote>

Warm and Fuzzy a) costs extra b) isn't part of the requirement here

Eric also says about getting "RTFM" replies: <quote> Often, the person telling you to do a search has the manual or the web page with the information you need open, and is looking at it as he or she types. These replies mean that he thinks (a) the information you need is easy to find, and (b) you will learn more if you seek out the information than if you have it spoon-fed to you. </quote>

Yes, I was looking at the man pages and the LDP how-to list when I told you, Oddball, to go RTFM. As DD says, if you want 'spoon-fed' there are people willing to do that - for payment. Just don't expect pabulum here.

Yeah yeah.. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 20-11-12 14:59, Patrick Shanahan schreef:

* Oddball<monkey9@iae.nl> [11-20-12 08:47]:

...

Op 20-11-12 14:28, Anton Aylward schreef: ...

...

Yes, I was looking at the man pages and the LDP how-to list when I told you, Oddball, to go RTFM. As DD says, if you want 'spoon-fed' there are people willing to do that - for payment. Just don't expect pabulum here.

Yeah yeah..

rather condescending!

You haphazardly fly thru random system changes to achieve a different look for your bootup, questioning resulting changes not meeting your expectations and then express dis-interest in learning basic operation of your chosen system.

Does it have that appearance? I missed testing of 121 and 122, so i am a little behind... sorry.

It really is appearing as you wish to play in the mud

Yes, i end up in a muddy sandbox, every once in a while...

and have someone clean you because you don't want to, ie: the house will burn to the ground because you cannot turn on the water.

Yeah, well don't take it all too serious... i have a headache already..

You say i should read manuals, and not come here, but at the same time you argue about things beside the point. The reason for wanting to know the answer quicker was that i wanted to capture output, which was there, and i do not know how to reproduce. Next thing i want to know is how to reproduce the output... because i had to reboot due to very sluggish system.. and the output doesn't start by itself.. probably an easy command which i do not know yet... There were things about the firewall, and about wifi that i wanted to know, because there are issues with it. I ask things that i want to know to add some maybe, relevant output, to be able to investigate where the issue comes from, or something else that can be known through it. 122 is different from all predecessors. and 123 even more. It might be helpfull to track some things 'before' they happen. We all know 123, or factory is a mess due to the changes to get systemd controlling things instead of sysv, iirc. I just heard suspend is broken on factory due to systemd, and networkmanager is not yet adapted fully, so it is still messy, but seems to start happening on my 122. Maybe it has nothing to do with it, maybe it has. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 20-11-12 17:20, Patrick Shanahan schreef:

* Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> [11-20-12 10:58]: ... well, headaches are not nice...

Indeed, but luckily for me i do not suffer often from them..

...

You say i should read manuals, and not come here, no-one has offered that. Reading the manuals is *part* of it, and coming here is *part* of it, but *only* coming here is "not it"!

Yes, read the manual, i will read more manuals, more..

...

but at the same time you argue about things beside the point. Hard not to following your discorse :^)

But where is agrument not to the point?

Well, keep on pushing the manual through my throat does not help my digestion..;-)

...

The reason for wanting to know the answer quicker was that i wanted to capture output, which was there, and i do not know how to reproduce. Next thing i want to know is how to reproduce the output... because i had to reboot due to very sluggish system.. and the output doesn't start by itself.. probably an easy command which i do not know yet... There were things about the firewall, and about wifi that i wanted to know, because there are issues with it. Doing it *all* an one time makes for confusion.

This is absolutely true...

Accomplish one task at a time and move to the next.

That would be nice, that there would be one thing at the time...( i sometimes secretly wish for that..)

Which also entails "following directions".

Yes. But sometimes many people give directions at the same time...

...

I ask things that i want to know to add some maybe, relevant output, to be able to investigate where the issue comes from, or something else that can be known through it. 122 is different from all predecessors. and 123 even more. as are *every* other distro and version, and that is how "it will be" in the future.

Yes, progress is not bad, only a lot of work, especially with too few people...

...

It might be helpfull to track some things 'before' they happen. We all know 123, or factory is a mess due to the changes to get systemd controlling things instead of sysv, iirc. no, not a *mess* but certainly different and a "learning experience".

Well, before things are sorted out, it is a mess..

...

I just heard suspend is broken on factory due to systemd, and networkmanager is not yet adapted fully, so it is still messy, but seems to start happening on my 122. Maybe it has nothing to do with it, maybe it has.

My autosuspend does not connect wifi on wake, manual sleep and wake works fine.

Again with the "grasping straws"... Doesn't help. Pointed arguments, statements, facts, experiences, ....

Yes, once i will get it... i promise myself this, and than i do..get it..

hyperbole

piechart. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 20-11-12 13:52, DenverD schreef:

there are millions of words on the net to help you learn the basics, here are a very _few_ of them--some better than others:

http://rute.2038bug.com/ http://www.linux-tutorial.info/index.php http://tille.garrels.be/training/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard http://tldp.org/LDP/Bash-Beginners-Guide/html/ http://www.tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/ http://tille.garrels.be/training/tldp/ http://www.scribd.com/doc/12918020/Linux-Starter-Pack

Thanks for extending 'my' library.. :-D

and there are uncountable non-disto specific forums when folks learn basics, found from here:

https://www.google.dk/search?q=forum+to+learn+basic+linux

but, when you have an openSUSE question, needing an openSUSE answer, feel free to seek help here while following this how-to-ask guide

http://tinyurl.com/anel

Only for those who are interested: [offtopic_self-explanatory_oddball_user_guide-(;-)] I understand, however, as a unique person, like you, i do not have to agree to 'all' what people say. Experiences and findings may differ, given the situations these experiences and findings result from. This means that i am who i am, and i tend not to brake spontaneous reactions too much. Of course, one notices impulsiveness, and i agree, that sometimes it was better to re-think, before re-act. But i have no need for pretensions. To be who i am is sufficient for me. That is no static, given fact. There is a continuous change. Like the universe is constantly changing, so are we. It is only some 14 years that i found the need to experience the Linux way. As M$ grew to annoy me, i started to look what was there, and after trying some: Knoppix, Debian, Redhat, DSL, i found SuSE, and liked it, so i stayed with it. (i think this was the right order..) But i am no programmer, one of my sons is. With a friend i owned a hardware pc build and repair-shop from '96 until late '02. We installed only windows, as very few people had ever heard of Linux, and as we told them that everything had to be 'set' first, but than it kept steady as forever, a treshold became visible, and they choose for the 'ease' and commercially guided 'Windows'. The chaos of the varying frequencies of videocards with busspeeds of MoBo's, created much problems, as people wanted 'that' MoBo, and 'that' videocard, and would not believe that it would not be compatible, so we put it together. Than they came back to tell us it did not work as expected. The hardware became outdated in a few days, and a pc of 6 months old, was called 'an antique'. We decided to stop to built, as we could not afford shelves full of outdated hardware, and only did the repairs. But this was also long time ago... -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> [11-20-12 09:23]: ...

The majority of the time when a Noob asks a question the first thing is , "in a terminal............" At that point you have just ruined the Noob's Linux experience. Thats why when someone mentions Linux to a Noob they come back with, "That's only for nerds and geeks." That's why Linux has the reputation of being hard [ impossible ] to use. If you want to keep Linux as the secret OS available only to yourselves thats fine. But, understand that there will always be a few of us stubborn people that will figure out how to make Linux work for us in spite of you.

Now you are at a great cultural divide. There may not be a guiey way to do an action (quite possibly), and the responder may not know the/a guiey way. But linux is a system which is configured with plain "text" files. Or was as that seems to be changing.

Sometimes a simple answer IS the best way to teach someone how to use Linux.

*Usually*. It is the path that becomes complicated. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012-11-20 10:05 (GMT-0500) Anton Aylward composed:

... In my databaseOfDotSigQuotes I have

That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex tasks impossible. -- John William Chambless

:-)

... Many things are text-under-the-hood even if the user only sees the 'graphical' end of things. XML representations are getting pervasive in this. If your XML gets screwed up then your GUI fails, and the recourse is to use a text editor to fix it. But that is an _admin_ function not and end _user_ function.

As typically here the end user is also of necessity the admin, maybe responders should be routinely prefacing responses with comments to the effect that what follows is an admin task of a type that has no GUI solution, where in the world of Windows the solution would be to reinstall, reboot and/or revert to the last working configuration, and Linux is better than that. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Billie Walsh said the following on 11/20/2012 09:23 AM:

Sometimes a simple answer IS the best way to teach someone how to use Linux.

Indeed, but sometimes the 'someone' doesn't want to accept a simple answer or has got them selves so tied in knots and preconceived notions that we have to unwind them first. UNIX and Linux is really really simple, Compared to other systems its is simple and regular. But sometimes people are so used to the irregular, the arcane and cryptic that they have a problem with something as straightforward as Linux. The MAN pages are an example of this. They are straight forward and undecorated descriptions of the command from a technical POV. This is the command; this is its arguments; this is what the arguments and their parameters do. That's it! No lecture; nothing on why you should or should not use this, philosophy etc etc etc. That's not the purpose of MAN pages. And all to often the answer really is RTFM. The simple answer is that the OP didn't pay attention to what was in the MAN page ... or the on-line examples. -- One person's "paranoia" is another person's "engineering redundancy." -- Marcus J. Ranum -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012-11-20 10:13 (GMT-0500) Anton Aylward composed:

...

The MAN pages are an example of this. They are straight forward and undecorated descriptions of the command from a technical POV. This is the command; this is its arguments; this is what the arguments and their parameters do. That's it! No lecture; nothing on why you should or should not use this, philosophy etc etc etc. That's not the purpose of MAN pages.

Unfortunate purpose.

...

And all to often the answer really is RTFM. The simple answer is that the OP didn't pay attention to what was in the MAN page

I can pay all the attention I want and still not understand. My brain more often than not requires example to bring understanding, meaning or context to terse text. Most man page readings for me are utter failures. I'm sure I'm hardly the only one whose brain is like this.

So please ask for the style of documentation that you want. And complain about the lack of how-tos or something. Don't try to force man pages to be something they aren't. It's like complaining that a pushbike won't do 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Having said that, I do like to see examples in man pages too :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> [11-20-12 10:39]:

On 2012-11-20 10:13 (GMT-0500) Anton Aylward composed: ...

...

And all to often the answer really is RTFM. The simple answer is that the OP didn't pay attention to what was in the MAN page

I can pay all the attention I want and still not understand. My brain more often than not requires example to bring understanding, meaning or context to terse text. Most man page readings for me are utter failures. I'm sure I'm hardly the only one whose brain is like this.

...

... or the on-line examples.

Hard to do when the problem is broken GUI. What's needed is a howto command, something to find on disk or construct practical examples based on what's in the man page.

but there is always: w3m google.com/search?q=howto:+ls or w3m google.com/search?q=man+ls+example and, while I am aprtial to w3m, you can substitute for w3m: lynx links elinks and probably some others.... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

It would appear that on Nov 20, Felix Miata did say:

...

The simple answer is that the OP didn't pay attention to what was in the MAN page

I can pay all the attention I want and still not understand. My brain more often than not requires example to bring understanding, meaning or context to terse text. Most man page readings for me are utter failures. I'm sure I'm hardly the only one whose brain is like this.

My brain, for instance, is very much like that...

...

... or the on-line examples.

Hard to do when the problem is broken GUI. What's needed is a howto command, something to find on disk or construct practical examples based on what's in the man page.

I would love such a thing. But I won't hold my breath waiting for it... Explain how to fish to a starving man who has never left the city, and you will have given him an interesting concept to distract him from his hunger. Illustrate the explanation by picking up a fishing rod, and actually show him how, and you have finally taught him how to catch his own fish... The man page explains. But examples (with a little explanation) do a better job of teaching those who don't already know how... This may not be the man pages purpose, but embedding relevant examples in the text of a man page would {at least for my brain} be the best possible "learn-how-to" tool... It's too bad that there are no such examples, embedded in the relevant places in such a way as to only be shown with some verbosity setting. Something like: "man --examples command" But I strongly doubt that anyone with the skill and knowledge needed to implement such a thing would want to spend the time... -- JtWdyP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 19-11-12 13:43, Anton Aylward schreef:

Oddball said the following on 11/19/2012 06:26 AM:

...

So, i will take a closer look at your 'manual'... ;-) Yes, always do that. The documentation is there for a purpose; to ignore it is the height of stupidity. Even those of us with decades of experience make hefty use of the manual. The advantage of the electronic ones is that they don't wear out like the paper ones, and you don't, as with the DEC manuals, have to worry about the bookcase falling over on you in the event of an earthquake.

RTFM! RTFM! There ought to be a cheering ditty supporting the RTFM

Maybe it does look sometimes as if i do, or did not read... But know that 'nothing is as it looks', or 'appearances may be deceiving' My problem is often to prevent from being buried under a pile, or truckload of 'manuals', not exactly reflecting what i was looking for....(figuratively spoken 'earthquake', you mentioned earlier..) But, so often seems, the 'manual' of every person, is different. Which means, that handling interactive 'manuals', (donot be provoked or offended) people, brings beside of the needed info, a lot of 'unwanted spam', but is often very much nicer.. ;-) So, i might heed the message: RTM, and will remember it better, to prevent to trigger 'unwanted spam' (please see the humor) Example of unwanted spam: Did you know that the letters of my first names are: RTM? -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 19-11-12 14:42, Anton Aylward schreef:

Oddball said the following on 11/19/2012 08:07 AM:

...

My problem is often to prevent from being buried under a pile, or truckload of 'manuals', not exactly reflecting what i was looking for....(figuratively spoken 'earthquake', you mentioned earlier..) But, so often seems, the 'manual' of every person, is different. I think you are so missing the point, not only of what I'm saying, but about much of this thread in general.

The documentation is there. Failing to make use of it says a lot about one's attitude and willingness to learn. You don't have to know it all, as might have been the case with DEC.VMS, but you do need to know how to use 'apropos' much as you might google, to 'get a clue', and you should always check the man page for any software you pointed to to find out how to use it. Over and above that, you now have, as many of didn't have when we started this path, the rich examples on the 'Net.

As for the 'earthquake' - that wasn't figurative. Go google USENET and you'll find that did happen to one VMS programmer. I have a complete set of USG UNIX SVR4 printed manuals and they are less than a 3 shelf feet. UNIX/LINUX documentation has always been 'light'; even the obsessive documentation-producing machine of IBM couldn't stretch the AIX documentation very far with all its "This page intentionally left blank" inserts.

No, failing to RTFM says more about the individual and how serious he is than anything else. And the manuals are, as I say, in these days of the 'Net, just one source you can consult on your own.

http://linux.koolsolutions.com/2009/01/14/howto-record-typescript-your-shell... http://www.linuxhowtos.org/Tips%20and%20Tricks/using_script.htm http://linuxaria.com/pills/registrare-il-terminale-con-script?lang=en http://linuxtarget.com/2012/01/20/recording-terminal-sessions-in-linux-with-...

If you haven't you should also try

man tty

man screen

And please, please, please take the time to understand the difference between a hard-wired tty and ptty

man pty

Thanks, i will say no more... ;-) -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 19-11-12 13:53, Carlos E. R. schreef:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-11-19 12:26, Oddball wrote:

...

I tried to clean-up the history from the up-arrow key, but did not succeed also. And it really has to be done, as a lot of crap ended up there experimenting with gpm. As simple as editing the file, then close the terminal and open it again to load the modified file. Indeed... ;-) In menu 'vieuw' in 'konsole' are the options: Cleanup history, and cleanup & reset hitory: ctrl+shift+K Should they bring up .bash_history ? Well, they do not.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iF4EAREIAAYFAlCqK94ACgkQja8UbcUWM1x00wD9Gx2QMKm2Amqnry31DBB/DTJh +ZPHLMpSnawbmf5CoCsA/1ed0Vm67eynfV6AQFzPadEpBI0AQ/Go1yhXWB589rLj =E02R -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 19-11-12 15:43, Carlos E. R. schreef:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

You have to remove all unneeded text

Yes. I use an addon in TB: conversation. It hides automaticly quoted text, which can be made visible at will... So yes, i am spoiled with automated removal of the unnecessary... Btw, it is not my fault that there are people more experienced on this, or any list. Thanx 4 your tips, most of them made sense.. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 19-11-12 16:35, Carlos E. R. schreef:

Thanx 4 your tips, most of them made sense.. Welcome. Learning takes time... Nobody started knowing it all, and we forget we had to fight our way.

:-D

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

-- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 18-11-12 13:54, ellanios82 schreef:

On 11/18/2012 02:31 PM, Oddball wrote:

...

is a default place where it is stored ...............

if i understand . . . let us say your home directory is :

/home/oddball

&, let us say you have a directory for miscellaneous stuff, named Documents, to which you would like to send your output :

try something like :

ls -la > /home/oddball/Documents/ls_output_111812.txt

............................

best regards

This works in a normal terminal/konsole, but that does not write the text in that terminal to the file. The file exists, but *nothing* that was in the terminal/konsole is written there, there is this output, which is not visible in the terminal/konsole window.

totaal 180 drwx------ 27 root root 4096 18 nov 13:23 . drwxr-xr-x 24 root root 4096 16 nov 16:36 .. -rw------- 1 root root 1599 16 nov 17:22 .bash_history drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 15 jul 06:02 bin drwx------ 4 root root 4096 17 nov 13:03 .cache drwxr-xr-x 7 root root 4096 17 nov 13:03 .config drwx------ 3 root root 4096 2 nov 23:51 .dbus drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Desktop -rw------- 1 root root 26 17 nov 13:22 .dmrc drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Documents drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Downloads -rw------- 1 root root 16 17 nov 13:03 .esd_auth drwx------ 2 root root 4096 3 nov 09:47 .gconf drwxr-xr-x 24 root root 4096 3 nov 16:14 .gimp-2.8 drwx------ 2 root root 4096 3 nov 00:30 .gnome2 drwx------ 3 root root 4096 17 nov 13:22 .gnupg drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:03 .gstreamer-0.10 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 328 17 nov 13:02 .gtkrc-2.0-kde4 drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 4096 2 nov 18:02 inst-sys drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2 nov 22:42 .kbd drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 4096 17 nov 13:03 .kde4 drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 3 nov 00:32 .kdm drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 3 nov 08:33 .local drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Music drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Pictures drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Public drwx------ 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:03 .pulse -rw------- 1 root root 256 3 nov 00:30 .pulse-cookie drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 3 nov 00:30 .rcc -rw------- 1 root root 118 17 nov 13:02 .serverauth.4257 drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Templates drwx------ 4 root root 4096 3 nov 12:40 .thumbnails drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 17 nov 13:02 Videos -rw------- 1 root root 59 18 nov 13:23 .xauth9jE9eY -rw------- 1 root root 59 17 nov 13:24 .Xauthority -rw------- 1 root root 40348 17 nov 13:24 .xsession-errors

So this is not what i need. My tty2 started logging the processes that are actually happening after starting root x desktop, and the system decided to terminate that session. Like: kded(4335) PowerDevill::Action::trigger:Unsatisfied policies, the action has been aborted these kind, and others. firewall messages etc. too much to remember. Maybe there is nothing important, maybe there is. All is functioning well, as far as i notice. But the system notices things i do not, and i just want to be able to capture these messages, to take a closer look at them. But it is not possible to capture output from a tty in init3 that is already on the screen? It seems what i put in is only a message, not a command.... -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 18-11-12 15:51, Anton Aylward schreef:

...

But it is not possible to capture output from a tty in init3 that is already on the screen? It seems what i put in is only a message, not a command.... If you're using a tty rather than an xterm then the obvious thing is to use 'script'. That copies everything that goes to the tty to a file.

Now do realise that a tty is a serial device. You are not getting a snapshot as you would if you were running a graphical console and using KSnapshot, you are getting a serial record of everything that was sent to the tty.

However it *does* redirect to the file in the manner you ask for.

Please do RTFM first. I/we take no responsibility for misuse.

Ah!, yes..., the manual, which one? Screendump has: cd /dev for i in 0 1 2 3 ...; do mknod vcs$i c 7 $i mknod vcsa$i c 7 `expr 128 + $i` done To make sure the dirs to 'dump' the std's to exist, you have to use a command. But as i seem not to clever, this does not work. There is an syntaxerror close to an unexpected symbol 'do', and the rest has faillures also. script --append /home/oddball/Documenten/terminal.txt creates the dir, but contains 0 bytes. Trying to execute commands in a tty, results in output of sfw, and than continues to be usefull for other purposes.... only. the file remains 0 bytes. No matter what terminal,konsole/tty is used. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan said the following on 11/18/2012 11:29 AM:

* Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> [11-18-12 11:04]:

...

Op 18-11-12 15:51, Anton Aylward schreef:

...

If you're using a tty rather than an xterm then the obvious thing is to use 'script'. That copies everything that goes to the tty to a file.

Now do realise that a tty is a serial device. You are not getting a snapshot as you would if you were running a graphical console and using KSnapshot, you are getting a serial record of everything that was sent to the tty.

However it *does* redirect to the file in the manner you ask for.

Please do RTFM first. I/we take no responsibility for misuse.

Ah!, yes..., the manual, which one?

Possibly that would be for script as that is what the OP stated.

Possibly => probably => certainty. MAN pages are wonderful, even if it takes apropos to find them :-) Apropos is the google for man pages :-)

...

Screendump has:

[snip]

And were did "screendump" come from? Not mentioned above!

Indeed. Quite irrelevant.

Yes, the computer *only* understand commands presented in the manner prescribed. If you fail to follow instructions, *you* fail!

I'm wondering here why oddball has so much trouble following instructions. Perhaps his problems expressing himself are a two-way thing. I recall a "Two Ronnies" sketch where someone was interviewed though a number of translators (which I can't find on Youtube) or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OCbvCRkl_4U#! Its clear that Oddball is not listening to us; what he's hearing has "obviously" gone tough three or four layers of translation and transliteration, each of which is less accurate than google and more perfidious than babelfish. And what we hear him say has, likewise, gone though those same language filters, which is why what he hearing back has nothing to do with what we think we are telling him. I mean, can you honestly think of any other explanation?

script is your simplest solution if you use it correctly and correctly is the prescribed manner, not anyway you choose.

Script works for you and me, Patrick. I bet it would work for Oddball as well if it wasn't for this 'layers of translation' problem. I mean, what kind of system do you get when you input 'script' and get out 'screendump', and where you suggest 'RTFM' and what come out obviously had nothing to do with anything sensible? Honestly, can you think of a simpler explanation? -- This message represents the official view of the voices in my head -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Per Jessen <per@computer.org> [11-18-12 12:22]: ...

I've always used "man -k" - I guess I'll have to find out what apropos does.

man -k <term> ~= apropos <term> but apropos displays possibilities rather than the man page itself. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 19-11-12 03:21, Thomas Taylor schreef:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 13:50:35 -0500 Patrick Shanahan <paka@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

* Per Jessen <per@computer.org> [11-18-12 12:22]: ...

...

I've always used "man -k" - I guess I'll have to find out what apropos does. man -k <term> ~= apropos <term>

but apropos displays possibilities rather than the man page itself.

Oddball, try "man script" for an explanation of this process.

Script is started in (and runs only in) a terminal which you have logged into. It will send any subsequent output going to that terminal to a file you specify.

"script ~/Documents/Copy_from_terminal_X" will copy anything displayed on the terminal screen after running script to the file shown. It WILL NOT copy anything on the screen prior to running "script". Append is one of the correct arguments for script.

Tom

Yes, thank you for your help. That goes for all of you. My apologies for not reacting at the same speed you feed me... I have to process the info, and check and read, and yes, sometimes i mix information i gathered on the same subject between what you, helpers, ask, or tell me. Sorry for that also. It seems that i 'am' a bugfinder, or merely, i unintentionally attract to try things that do not work... Like the screendump man. I than ask myself why a manual is added, if the commands do not work anyway.. And when i notice something, like output on a tty, which can not be scrolled back, i want to find a way to be able to read that output, especially when it continuous to put out. Maybe, there is something useful there.... Of course it did not occur to me that that was not 'simply' possible, so i entangle in a web of possibilities, and have to find the way most suitable for the situation. I thought everybody knew how to do it but me, so there would be someone kind enough to give me the answer.. Luckily for me and others, there are still people on this list, that really try to understand, and help. I want you to know that i appreciate that very much. I am not trying to offend anybody. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc5-2-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/18/2012 04:33 PM, Oddball wrote:

ls -la > /home/oddball/Documents/ls_output_111812.txt

......................... just in case there might be something of interest { which flashed across the screen } - as root, in konsole terminal, perhaps, try : cat dmesg > /home/oddball/Documents/dmesg_output.txt ....................... best regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:38:36 +0100 Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:

it seems it is necessary now to name the whole path /bin/dmesg i noticed that yesterday with systemctl, which is: /bin/systemctl

It is just: # dmesg > file_of_your_choice Then look at 'file_of_your_choice' with editor of your choice and you will see all output of program 'dmesg' which is kernel messages. Doing: cat dmesg > some_file means that program 'cat' will look for file named 'dmesg' and as it is not present it will output nothing to 'some_file'. When you add '/bin/dmesg' program 'cat' will find file to show, but that will be program 'dmesg' itself, so you will (most likely) have copy of 'dmesg' plus some garbage in the file 'some_file'. In any case that is not what you want to see :) -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 21-11-12 07:20, Oddball schreef:

Op 21-11-12 06:30, Rajko schreef:

...

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:38:36 +0100 Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:

...

it seems it is necessary now to name the whole path /bin/dmesg i noticed that yesterday with systemctl, which is: /bin/systemctl It is just:

# dmesg > file_of_your_choice

Then look at 'file_of_your_choice' with editor of your choice and you will see all output of program 'dmesg' which is kernel messages.

Doing:

cat dmesg > some_file

means that program 'cat' will look for file named 'dmesg' and as it is not present it will output nothing to 'some_file'.

When you add '/bin/dmesg' program 'cat' will find file to show, but that will be program 'dmesg' itself, so you will (most likely) have copy of 'dmesg' plus some garbage in the file 'some_file'. In any case that is not what you want to see :)

EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # cat /dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt cat: /dmesg: Bestand of map bestaat niet (=file or directory does not exist) EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ #

EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # cat /bin/dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ #

Btw, the output is, like you say, completely unreadable, while #dmesg -x shows a normal, humanly readable output in the terminal window. But i can copy and paste this into a textfile to study. EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # cat dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt cat: dmesg: Bestand of map bestaat niet (=file or directory does not exist) EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 21-11-12 08:05, Felix Miata schreef:

On 2012-11-21 07:42 (GMT+0100) Oddball composed:

...

...

EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # cat /dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt cat: /dmesg: Bestand of map bestaat niet (=file or directory does not exist) EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ #

...

...

EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # cat /bin/dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ #

...

Btw, the output is, like you say, completely unreadable, while #dmesg -x shows a normal, humanly readable output in the terminal window. But i can copy and paste this into a textfile to study.

...

EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # cat dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt cat: dmesg: Bestand of map bestaat niet (=file or directory does not exist) EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ #

Catting a binary file into a text file is a nonsense process. If you want to look inside a binary file, just use a file viewer (e.g. F3 running MC). That way you'll be able to see the whole thing instead of whatever content proceeds the EOF marker, not that you'll make sense of more than a few bunches of text strings.

Dmesg is a command. You don't cat it. Catting is for combining files, and viewing human readable files.

OTOH, 'dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt' is all human readable, just like what's already in /var/log/messages. EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # dmesg > /home/oddball/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ #

Indeed it is, but the two files differ (#dmesg -x , dmesg > ~/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt) in this way, that: see example: dmesg -x kern :warn : [ 0.075449] ACPI: Dynamic OEM Table Load: kern :warn : [ 0.075456] ACPI: SSDT (null) 000CC (v01 PmRef Cpu1Ist 00003000 INTL 20060113) kern :warn : [ 0.075781] ACPI: SSDT 7f7ae3c0 00085 (v01 PmRef Cpu1Cst 00003000 INTL 20060113) kern :warn : [ 0.076618] ACPI: Dynamic OEM Table Load: kern :warn : [ 0.076624] ACPI: SSDT (null) 00085 (v01 PmRef Cpu1Cst 00003000 INTL 20060113) kern :info : [ 0.077558] ACPI: Interpreter enabled kern :info : [ 0.077577] ACPI: (supports S0 S3 S4 S5) kern :info : [ 0.077631] ACPI: Using IOAPIC for interrupt routing kern :info : [ 0.077715] PCI: MMCONFIG for domain 0000 [bus 00-3f] at [mem 0xe0000000-0xe3ffffff] (base 0xe0000000) kern :info : [ 0.079515] PCI: MMCONFIG at [mem 0xe0000000-0xe3ffffff] reserved in ACPI motherboard resources kern :info : [ 0.079520] PCI: Using MMCONFIG for extended config space ~/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpuset [ 0.000000] Initializing cgroup subsys cpu [ 0.000000] Linux version 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop (geeko@buildhost) (gcc version 4.7.2 20120920 [gcc-4_7-branch revision 191568] (SUSE Linux) ) #1 SMP PREEMPT Mon Nov 19 04:29:23 UTC 2012 (daac70a) [ 0.000000] Disabled fast string operations [ 0.000000] e820: BIOS-provided physical RAM map: [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x0000000000000000-0x000000000009fbff] usable [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x000000000009fc00-0x000000000009ffff] reserved [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x00000000000e0000-0x00000000000fffff] reserved [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x0000000000100000-0x000000007f79ffff] usable [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x000000007f7a0000-0x000000007f7adfff] ACPI data [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x000000007f7ae000-0x000000007f7effff] ACPI NVS [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x000000007f7f0000-0x000000007f7fffff] reserved [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x00000000fee00000-0x00000000fee00fff] reserved [ 0.000000] BIOS-e820: [mem 0x00000000fff80000-0x00000000ffffffff] reserved [ 0.000000] NX (Execute Disable) protection: active [ 0.000000] DMI present. [ 0.000000] DMI: ASUSTeK Computer INC. 901/901, BIOS 2103 06/11/2009 [ 0.000000] e820: update [mem 0x00000000-0x0000ffff] usable ==> reserved [ 0.000000] e820: remove [mem 0x000a0000-0x000fffff] usable [ 0.000000] e820: last_pfn = 0x7f7a0 max_arch_pfn = 0x1000000 I tried to find the similarities in the files but did not yet succeed.. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/23/2012 02:26 AM, JtWdyP wrote:

It would appear that on Nov 21, Oddball did say:

...

Indeed it is, but the two files differ (#dmesg -x , dmesg > ~/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt) in this way, that: see example:

I know man documents can be hard to understand, but if you do a:

man dmesg,

and while your in the man document you search for the "-x" option

that is type "/-x" and hit enter... It tells you what the -x option does to the dmesg output... Perhaps what your trying to ask is something like:

What are these things that "man dmesg" calls "facility and level (priority) number"?

I don't know if anyone will tell us. But the mere fact that it's obvious from that question that I at least looked at the man document, may inspire someone to explain...

what version of openSUSE are you using? i ask only because my manual for dmesg doesn't show an -x switch.. and also missing are both 'facility' and 'priority'...so i am confused.. (and trying to learn how and what i'm missing) dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 08:36, DenverD schreef:

On 11/23/2012 02:26 AM, JtWdyP wrote:

...

It would appear that on Nov 21, Oddball did say:

...

Indeed it is, but the two files differ (#dmesg -x , dmesg > ~/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt) in this way, that: see example:

I know man documents can be hard to understand, but if you do a:

man dmesg,

and while your in the man document you search for the "-x" option

that is type "/-x" and hit enter... It tells you what the -x option does to the dmesg output... Perhaps what your trying to ask is something like:

What are these things that "man dmesg" calls "facility and level (priority) number"?

I don't know if anyone will tell us. But the mere fact that it's obvious from that question that I at least looked at the man document, may inspire someone to explain...

what version of openSUSE are you using?

i ask only because my manual for dmesg doesn't show an -x switch..

and also missing are both 'facility' and 'priority'...so i am confused.. (and trying to learn how and what i'm missing)

dd

DMESG OPTIONS -x, --decode Decode facility and level (priority) number to human readable prefixes. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-11-23 19:39, JtWdyP wrote:

But all I know about " 'facility' and 'priority' " is that when I type

man syslog. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlCvzs4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1yi4QEAlxXcoXQfmixUkx74kXzghZGW EukvzAysu5yeMNJHqTwA/1G/7T4C9CYGYcDW35+sOmAu0AeOOu9iwa0r7jjv223E =PcI7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 02:26, JtWdyP schreef:

It would appear that on Nov 21, Oddball did say:

...

Indeed it is, but the two files differ (#dmesg -x , dmesg > ~/Documenten/dmesg_output.txt) in this way, that: see example: I know man documents can be hard to understand, but if you do a:

man dmesg,

and while your in the man document you search for the "-x" option

that is type "/-x" and hit enter... It tells you what the -x option does to the dmesg output... Perhaps what your trying to ask is something like:

What are these things that "man dmesg" calls "facility and level (priority) number"?

I don't know if anyone will tell us. But the mere fact that it's obvious from that question that I at least looked at the man document, may inspire someone to explain...

The option '-x', i used to get readable output, as it is designed for that purpose. The output is readable, no question. What i notice, that however the output of dmesg alone sent to '>' ~/somedir is also human readable, differs totally from dmesg -x. The last will give output directly into tty (or other terminal window used). I know i can copy and paste to a file in an editor, that is not what i wanted to say. The output differs, which i did not expect. Try yourself, and you will see what i mean. dmesg -x shows, in human readable terms, what the kernel is actually doing at a moment during the boot proces. (that is if i understand correctly..) How it invokes the hardware to join the feast, and echo's to find out if the hw reacts as expected, and if not, it will repeat the action. AS when a network or network card does not start or appears at a time it should. There are several tries to get it all online. The output of dmesg > ~/somedir is not as easy to translate, that is not by me. Hence the '-x' human readable output. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 13:18, Carlos E. R. schreef:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-11-23 13:07, Oddball wrote:

...

Op 23-11-12 02:26, JtWdyP schreef: dmesg -x shows, in human readable terms, what the kernel is actually doing at a moment during the boot proces. (that is if i understand correctly..) Not really. It does "dmesg - print or control the kernel ring buffer", and it may have happened hours ago. Or days.

Depending on your syslog configuration the messages also get written to log files.

I suggest you try it, and look at the file, instead of simply quote the man page. Than you will see the progrees of the bootprocess. ;-)

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/

iF4EAREIAAYFAlCvaXgACgkQja8UbcUWM1yZJwD8DAhCcJA8qsDxbiM2z44nVrq0 MxBLiPQwAeUFelvrEvgA/2af+cdfb+o4yNZMkcqINWhqcq9wn2VcQFXae48QxoUy =ev4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 13:07, Oddball schreef:

The output of dmesg > ~/somedir is not as easy to translate, that is not by me. Hence the '-x' human readable output.

so the next would be: #dmesg -x > ~/somedir/somefile.txt , to get the readable output directly to a textfile. Which works, and can be used with all other options also. script -a ~/somedir/somefile.txt should bring all prior output to the named file, and create it, which it does, but there are some symbols there that not resemble the real output. (EeePc-Rob-SFN9:~ # (B) <copying changed the output in the file to this, which is again 'translated' to something else... and what is not what i want. I want the exact same output from a tty of my choice, written to a file, to study. To capture messages that may be of interest. I am free to decide what is of interest and why, and for how long. To explain my point: I do not like my pc tells me something which i am not able to capture and read back. What i want exactly, is to get the process logging output, directed to a file, without me being concerned if it really happens. What i understand from what i read in the 'man script' is that the option -a --append : the output to file or typescript, retaining the prior contents. But until now it did not continue doing it with output printed on the screen 'after' the command was given. (probably i will have to establish the wanted output to be steady, and look after a while if the output was still written to the file.) Another thing: How to get out of the help or man pages correctly, and back to my prompt? bash --help shows help, and exits to the prompt, how this should be. # /bin/systemctl start gpm.service starts the mouse in a tty, even when the command is given in init5 in a # terminal window. Which is nice. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 14:34, Anton Aylward schreef:

Oddball said the following on 11/23/2012 07:57 AM:

...

[about changing symbols due to translation or transcription or something] But you *did* get _exactly_ was what sent to the TTY.

This confuses me.. So what you are trying to tell me, is that the output i see on the screen, is not the real output, but what script sends to the file is?

That you do not know what the escape codes for your TTY are that are in the data stream is just that; you don't know.

Exactly, i don't know..

It is however a correct record of the output sent to your TTY. Despite what you say it is the real output.

Here you say it again: What i see on the tty screen is not the real output.

Try man terminfo or the easier to understand though obsolete 'termcap' capability.

'termcap' looks like 'terminal capture' (assumption) And is obsolete because the info you see on the screen is not correct, so it is useless?

-- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 15:13, Carlos E. R. schreef:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-11-23 15:11, Oddball wrote:

...

Op 23-11-12 14:34, Anton Aylward schreef:

...

It is however a correct record of the output sent to your TTY. Despite what you say it is the real output. Here you say it again: What i see on the tty screen is not the real output. Yes. Escape codes are interpreted, not printed.

The dawn is setting with hints to proper man pages... I am beginning to see... (realizing i must have said stupid things... thanks guys for your patience with me.. ;-)) Thanks Anton, Carlos, Patrick and those whom i not name here.. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 11/23/2012 09:11 AM:

Op 23-11-12 14:34, Anton Aylward schreef:

...

Oddball said the following on 11/23/2012 07:57 AM:

...

[about changing symbols due to translation or transcription or something] But you *did* get _exactly_ was what sent to the TTY.

This confuses me.. So what you are trying to tell me, is that the output i see on the screen, is not the real output, but what script sends to the file is?

...

That you do not know what the escape codes for your TTY are that are in the data stream is just that; you don't know.

Exactly, i don't know..

...

It is however a correct record of the output sent to your TTY. Despite what you say it is the real output.

Here you say it again: What i see on the tty screen is not the real output.

If you type the control codes to position the cursor or the change colour, you don't see the codes but you do see the result. Those codes are part of the data stream whether you see them or see their results as interpreted by the terminal driver. In one sense it a difference that makes no difference, depending on how you 'interpret' it. What you see on the screen is [the result] of the real output.

...

Try man terminfo or the easier to understand though obsolete 'termcap' capability.

'termcap' looks like 'terminal capture'

(assumption) And is obsolete because the info you see on the screen is not correct, so it is useless?

Far from it. Terminfo is an optimization of terminfo; you can think of terminfo as the compiled (binary) version of termcap. If you read the man pages you'd have seen that it says that! <quote> The termcap database is an obsolete facility for describing the capabilities of character-cell terminals and printers. It is retained only for capability with old programs; new ones should use the terminfo(5) database and associated libraries. </quote> ... and more. Of course googling would have told you all that and more http://books.google.ca/books?id=GsUMLqtYI1UC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=history+of+termcap+and+terminfo&source=bl&ots=RoIDexMWXc&sig=-rfZdKtM8LEN9iPLm6ya_0Ucx3Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=y4ivUNDdBqii2wWn54DICQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=history%20of%20termcap%20and%20terminfo&f=false http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminfo I have a question: Why don't you do all this research for yourself? -- You've got to hand it to the Inland Revenue. If not, they'll come and take it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Oddball said the following on 11/23/2012 09:50 AM:

Did not know where to start...

I keep telling you but you don't listen ... Use 'apropos' ... keep using apropos with the various keywords you can come up with ... tty ... terminal ... (apropos also supports regular expressions; q.v.) If you read the manual page on manual pages $ man man (did you real the man page on map pages? Of course you didn't, its clear from what you say about them!) it will tell you the types of manual pages <quote> 1 Executable programs or shell commands 2 System calls (functions provided by the kernel) 3 Library calls (functions within program libraries) 4 Special files (usually found in /dev) 5 File formats and conventions eg /etc/passwd 6 Games 7 Miscellaneous (including macro packages and conventions), e.g. man(7), groff(7) 8 System administration commands (usually only for root) 9 Kernel routines [Non standard] </quote> so you want to filter (you do know how to use grep, don't you?) for "1" "4" "5" and perhaps "7" and "8" depending on context. You're not programming in C so forget "3", and you're not hacking the kernel so forget "9" And one thing leads to another. Most manual page have a "See also" section. You should follow those to other man pages. And don't forget that the man command supports searching with regular expressions. You do now how to use regular expressions? Yes there's a man page on it (as well as a book from O'Reilly). Try using 'apropos' to find it. As we've said, man pages are 'specifications'. Real life will involve more than one command, so don't stop reading. And, as Brian White so eloquently said: <quote> A how-to says "run this command" and gives some string of stuff for you to copy like a monkey. But that is wrong because that example is not "how you do it", it is just one of infinite ways to do it, and it is the wrong way if taken outside of the context that was either set up, or worse just assumed, by the how-to itself. </quote> A 'how-to' may not match your context, but man pages are *never* out of context by definition. :-) -- If God does not write LisP, God writes some code so similar to LisP as to make no difference. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 14:45, Bob Williams schreef:

On 23/11/12 12:57, Oddball wrote:

...

Another thing: How to get out of the help or man pages correctly, and back to my prompt? Press 'q'

Bob

Thanks Bob, it is so obvious that i did not think of it: esc, exit, alt-F4 (closes the terminal window in init5, and brings tty4 in init3..) I must think more logical really.. -- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op 23-11-12 15:07, Carlos E. R. schreef:

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On 2012-11-23 13:57, Oddball wrote:

...

I want the exact same output from a tty of my choice, written to a file, to study. It is the same output. Cat the file and you will see the escape codes interpreted instead of printed.

Ok, i will try and look...

...

Another thing: How to get out of the help or man pages correctly, and back to my prompt? Press -h- to see the help.

Many thanks to all who share these helpfull letters with me.. :-D

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

-- Have a nice day, Oddball. OS: Linux 3.7.0-rc6-1-desktop i686 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@EeePc-Rob-SFN9 Systeem: openSUSE 12.2 (i586) KDE: 4.9.3 "release 520" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko said the following on 11/21/2012 12:30 AM:

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:38:36 +0100 Oddball <monkey9@iae.nl> wrote:

...

it seems it is necessary now to name the whole path /bin/dmesg i noticed that yesterday with systemctl, which is: /bin/systemctl

It is just:

# dmesg > file_of_your_choice

Then look at 'file_of_your_choice' with editor of your choice and you will see all output of program 'dmesg' which is kernel messages.

You will then need to read up on the kernel documentation to make sense of all that. -- "The greatest of all faults is to be conscious of none. Recognizing our limitations & imperfections is the first requisite of progress. Those who believe they have "arrived" believe they have nowhere to go. Some not only have closed their minds to new truth, but they sit on the lid." -- Dale Turner. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org