I've been getting very frustrated with the Linux version of Netscape 6.1. The Messenger part of it seems extremely buggy, particularly with respect to keyboard operations. A couple of examples (there are many more): - You can't view full headers. Changing the view option has no effect. - You can't delete a freshly opened message with the Del key -- but if you delete it with Alt-E/D, you can delete subsequent messages with the Del key. - If you try to move a message from the Inbox to a folder, the list of folders that shows up is unsorted. Is anyone else around here using Messenger in Netscape 6.1? What have your experiences been? I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems. - Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail? - Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)? What other alternatives are there? Paul
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:05 pm, you wrote:
I've been getting very frustrated with the Linux version of Netscape 6.1. The Messenger part of it seems extremely buggy, particularly with respect to keyboard operations. A couple of examples (there are many more):
- You can't view full headers. Changing the view option has no effect.
- You can't delete a freshly opened message with the Del key -- but if you delete it with Alt-E/D, you can delete subsequent messages with the Del key.
- If you try to move a message from the Inbox to a folder, the list of folders that shows up is unsorted.
Is anyone else around here using Messenger in Netscape 6.1? What have your experiences been?
I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems.
- Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail?
- Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)?
What other alternatives are there?
Paul
Paul, It is my experience that Netscape 6.x is nothing but a rehashed and out of date Mozilla. My advice is to try both KMail and Mozilla, and see which one you like the best. Have a great day, Steven -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Steven Hatfield http://www.knightswood.net Registered Linux User #220336 ICQ: 7314105 Useless Machine Data: Running SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional and KDE2.2 12:10pm up 1 day, 12:39, 1 user, load average: 0.03, 0.02, 0.00 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Random Quote: So logically, if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood, and therefore a witch.
Steven Hatfield wrote:
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:05 pm, you wrote:
I've been getting very frustrated with the Linux version of Netscape 6.1. The Messenger part of it seems extremely buggy, particularly with respect to keyboard operations.
...
I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems.
- Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail?
- Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)?
It is my experience that Netscape 6.x is nothing but a rehashed and out of date Mozilla. My advice is to try both KMail and Mozilla, and see which one you like the best.
Are there any known drawbacks of Mozilla versus Netscape? If I convert my email files to Kmail from Netscape, will I be able to convert them back again if Kmail doesn't work out for me? Paul
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:13 pm, Paul Abrahams wrote:
Steven Hatfield wrote:
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:05 pm, you wrote:
I've been getting very frustrated with the Linux version of Netscape 6.1. The Messenger part of it seems extremely buggy, particularly with respect to keyboard operations.
...
I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems.
- Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail?
- Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)?
It is my experience that Netscape 6.x is nothing but a rehashed and out of date Mozilla. My advice is to try both KMail and Mozilla, and see which one you like the best.
Are there any known drawbacks of Mozilla versus Netscape?
If I convert my email files to Kmail from Netscape, will I be able to convert them back again if Kmail doesn't work out for me?
Paul
Paul, Netscape is a branch of the Mozilla CVS tree, with some "Netscape specific" changes (You know, point every link in the browser back to a Netscape owned property to generate as much traffic as possible?...). Netscape 6.1 is Mozilla 0.9.2.1.. Mozilla is at 0.9.4 right now, with literally THOUSANDS of bugs fixed since Netscape branched. I think the only drawbacks are on using Netscape over Mozilla! You still have all those bugs! KMail and Mozilla have their own directory structures for storing email. If you are using pop3 email, simply set the accounts that you create in the clients to not delete the messages from the server until you can make a decision on which client to use. Then turn the delete from server switch on to clear out your mailbox. Good luck, Steven -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Steven Hatfield http://www.knightswood.net Registered Linux User #220336 ICQ: 7314105 Useless Machine Data: Running SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional and KDE2.2 12:29pm up 1 day, 12:58, 1 user, load average: 0.18, 0.10, 0.04 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Random Quote: Programmer (n): One who makes the lies the salesman told come true.
On September 24, 2001 12:05 pm, Paul Abrahams wrote:
I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems.
I use Kmail and Netscape 6.1. Provides the best combination IMHO. I haven't even looked at netscape email.
- Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail?
Don't know about the netscape archives but the rest is YES. It will launch konqueror on links and you can view HTML if you want.
- Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)?
IMHO with some sites it works with some it doesn't. I'm not sure why. Nick
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:15, Nick Zentena wrote:
On September 24, 2001 12:05 pm, Paul Abrahams wrote:
I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems.
I use Kmail and Netscape 6.1. Provides the best combination IMHO. I haven't even looked at netscape email.
- Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail?
Don't know about the netscape archives but the rest is YES. It will launch konqueror on links and you can view HTML if you want.
- Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)?
IMHO with some sites it works with some it doesn't. I'm not sure why.
Nick
This cannot be stressed enough. Netscape/Mozilla (the code name NN has always had) is the poster-child for the victims of *the* monopoly. I was working closely with Netscape in the days when IE was dumped on the marked in an effort to destroy Netscape Communications corp. Netscape has its roots in OSS from way back when. I haven't been able to do the comparison, but it looks to me as though Netscape/Mozilla is really XEmacs on steroids. It is continuing to mature and improve. I've been pushing for improvements in the core performance, and it is getting much tighter. Unfortunately sometimes they give me what I asked for and I then regret it because it changes the way I'm approaching things. The reason why there are problems with many bank sites is because they build to IE/NN4 and don't care about w3c conformance. Well monied major corporations really should put some resources back into projects such as Mozilla and Linux. You know, the kind of idea that goes, by helping the whole of society and not counting every bean, we will reap intangible rewards. In other words, I need a job, and I want to hack Mozilla. Netscape Navigator is Open Sourcs Software. Netscape Navigator is GPLd. Please (everybody) read the sig tag. It's OK to b!tch when things don't go right, but if a person doesn't report a bug once in a while, or make some other kind of contribution, that person is a leech if he or she uses OSS. -- Open Source Software depends on your support. If you use it, be sure to give something back. http://www.suse.com | http://www.kde.org http://www.mozilla.org | http://www.xemacs.org
This cannot be stressed enough. Netscape/Mozilla (the code name NN has always had) is the poster-child for the victims of *the* monopoly. I was working closely with Netscape in the days when IE was dumped on the marked in an effort to destroy Netscape Communications corp. Netscape has its roots in OSS from way back when. I haven't been able to do the comparison, but it looks to me as though Netscape/Mozilla is really XEmacs on steroids.
It is continuing to mature and improve. I've been pushing for improvements in the core performance, and it is getting much tighter. Unfortunately sometimes they give me what I asked for and I then regret it because it changes the way I'm approaching things.
The reason why there are problems with many bank sites is because they build to IE/NN4 and don't care about w3c conformance. Well monied major corporations really should put some resources back into projects such as Mozilla and Linux. You know, the kind of idea that goes, by helping the whole of society and not counting every bean, we will reap intangible rewards. In other words, I need a job, and I want to hack Mozilla.
Netscape Navigator is Open Sourcs Software. Netscape Navigator is GPLd. Please (everybody) read the sig tag. It's OK to b!tch when things don't go right, but if a person doesn't report a bug once in a while, or make some other kind of contribution, that person is a leech if he or she uses OSS.
Good old netscape 4.77 is an excellent email client and newsreader, and works fine with https with my bank.. I have tried netscape 6, 6.1, all the versions of mozilla, ans they are all VERY buggy and soooo slow they are hardly usable. Plus they all die on https (maybe not mozilla 0.94) I used to like Konqueror, but it is turning into the same kind of fat slow beast that netscape 6 and mozilla are. Konqueror 2.1 did https fine, 2.2 beta too; it broke with 2.2 final, and it's back with 2.2.1. For people who depend on their browser for bank payments, this is hardly convincing. A couple of weeks ago I tried Opera, which, despite the somewhat annoying ads, really flies, and does https like a charm. Speedwise, that the model they should all try to beat....But, no java, some javascript, and plugins are .... well, beta... Plus, I'm fed up with all the OS developers who complain about the complaints of ordinary users, saying that either you are a coder and help, or you are a leech. I am a teacher, have been using linux for most of my needs for two and a half years, have tried to convert both students and colleagues to the merits of Linux, but you have to accept that browsing the web is not where Linux shines most.... My own two cents.... fxf
Good old netscape 4.77 is an excellent email client and newsreader, and works fine with https with my bank.. I have tried netscape 6, 6.1, all the versions of mozilla, ans they are all VERY buggy and soooo slow they are hardly usable. Plus they all die on https (maybe not mozilla 0.94)
Mozilla runs pretty fast on my machine. The same Konqueror.... Opera is very fast on HTML, but it's the slowest rendering images though. Praise
On September 24, 2001 04:02 pm, FX Fraipont wrote:
Good old netscape 4.77 is an excellent email client and newsreader, and works fine with https with my bank.. I have tried netscape 6, 6.1, all the versions of mozilla, ans they are all VERY buggy and soooo slow they are hardly usable. Plus they all die on https (maybe not mozilla 0.94)
For me the exact opposite. 6.1 is almost rock solid. Works on almost all sites. Never has any problems with 128bit security. 4.77 had problems on the same sites. Not to mention I find 6.1 fairly quick. Nick
On September 24, 2001 02:30 pm, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
The reason why there are problems with many bank sites is because they build to IE/NN4 and don't care about w3c conformance. Well monied major
Personally I find 6.1 much better then 4.xx. Some of the same sites that broke 4.xx [either crashing it or just not working] seem to work fine with 6.1. 6.1 is much better then 6.0 which seemed like a joke. The few sites that don't render right with 6.1 tend to work just fine with Konqueror. Nick
Nick Zentena wrote:
On September 24, 2001 02:30 pm, Steven T. Hatton wrote:
The reason why there are problems with many bank sites is because they build to IE/NN4 and don't care about w3c conformance. Well monied major
Personally I find 6.1 much better then 4.xx. Some of the same sites that broke 4.xx [either crashing it or just not working] seem to work fine with 6.1. 6.1 is much better then 6.0 which seemed like a joke. The few sites that don't render right with 6.1 tend to work just fine with Konqueror.
Are you also using Messenger? I wonder if the browsing component of Netscape 6.1 is in far better shape than the email component. If so, a reasonable strategy would be to use Netscape 6.1 for browsing only. Paul
On September 24, 2001 05:28 pm, Paul Abrahams wrote:
Are you also using Messenger? I wonder if the browsing component of Netscape 6.1 is in far better shape than the email component. If so, a reasonable strategy would be to use Netscape 6.1 for browsing only.
Nope Kmail. The only time I touch Messenger is when I click on a mailto link. Kmail isn't perfect but good enough for me. Nick
Steven T. Hatton wrote (in a thread on Netscape 6.1):
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:15, Nick Zentena wrote:
Netscape Navigator is Open Sourcs Software. Netscape Navigator is GPLd. Please (everybody) read the sig tag. It's OK to b!tch when things don't go right, but if a person doesn't report a bug once in a while, or make some other kind of contribution, that person is a leech if he or she uses OSS.
I've reported a bunch of bugs to Netscape but never seen any evidence that my reports had any effect whatsoever. As to contributing code, I think one of the problems there is that it takes a very large investment of time in order to be able to contribute anything whatsoever that's useful. It's not enough to be able to program, or even program well; you need to become familiar with a very large code base, and that's difficult to do on a part-time basis. Paul
On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 05:55:27PM -0400, Paul Abrahams wrote:
Steven T. Hatton wrote (in a thread on Netscape 6.1):
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:15, Nick Zentena wrote:
Netscape Navigator is Open Sourcs Software. Netscape Navigator is GPLd. Please (everybody) read the sig tag. It's OK to b!tch when things don't go right, but if a person doesn't report a bug once in a while, or make some other kind of contribution, that person is a leech if he or she uses OSS.
I've reported a bunch of bugs to Netscape but never seen any evidence that my reports had any effect whatsoever. As to contributing code, I think one of the problems there is that it takes a very large investment of time in order to be able to contribute anything whatsoever that's useful. It's not enough to be able to program, or even program well; you need to become familiar with a very large code base, and that's difficult to do on a part-time basis.
Paul
Netscape nay be a bad example in this case. I heard somewhere it represents about 10,000,000 lines of code. Contributions can be made in terms of advocacy as well. At work we use, gcc, openssl, openldap, gnu software of all kinds...that is not purely economic, they are used because people have heard of them, and heard of their good reputation, and appreciation of the phenomenal amount of information freely available on the net concerning all such tools. Unfortunately this still only applies to development and the backend of the product software. The infra-structure is still Microsoft (the double cancers of Outlook and Exchange... etc) -- Regards Cliff
Steven T. Hatton wrote:
On Monday 24 September 2001 12:15, Nick Zentena wrote:
On September 24, 2001 12:05 pm, Paul Abrahams wrote:
I'm considering Kmail and Mozilla as alternatives, and also considering reverting to Netscape 4.77, which has its own problems.
I use Kmail and Netscape 6.1. Provides the best combination IMHO. I haven't even looked at netscape email.
- Does Kmail provide the ability to view HTML and to activate links contained in email messages? Is it easy, or even possible, to convert Netscape mail archives to Kmail?
Don't know about the netscape archives but the rest is YES. It will launch konqueror on links and you can view HTML if you want.
- Does Mozilla have the ability to handle Web sites for commercial transactions (banks, etc.)?
IMHO with some sites it works with some it doesn't. I'm not sure why.
Nick
This cannot be stressed enough. Netscape/Mozilla (the code name NN has always had) is the poster-child for the victims of *the* monopoly. I was working closely with Netscape in the days when IE was dumped on the marked in an effort to destroy Netscape Communications corp. Netscape has its roots in OSS from way back when. I haven't been able to do the comparison, but it looks to me as though Netscape/Mozilla is really XEmacs on steroids.
You really muddy the waters by confusing Netscape, the company consumed by AOL, with the Mozilla project, which is still largely financed by AOL (i.e. many Netscape employees are still paid to hack the project). The Mozilla project has been, and will definitely continue to be open source (they even recently relicensed Mozilla under the GPL). Netscape, the company (and product) were never open source until they spawned the Mozilla project. Netscape the company was seeded by VCs who wanted to cash in on this "new thing" known as the Internet. Their business model all along was closed commercial software. Starting the Mozilla project wasn't really a charitable gesture to the Internet community (it was a last-gasp effort for the reasons below). What Netscape (the company) was hoping for was to leverage open-source developers in the spirit of _The Cathedral and the Bazaar_, to quickly create a high-quality next generation product to succeed Netscape 4.x. By this time, IE5 was already near release, and Netscape 5 code was just a mess that was nowhere near an actual product. You are right that this model ultimately failed because Microsoft, the monopoly, essentially tied its browser into its OS. By giving MSIE away for "free," it cut out one leg of Netscape's business. Note that there's nothing "free" about IE in reality since consumers incur a cost whenever they pay for a Microsoft OS license. Nearly equally importantly, IIS was "given away" to companies who bought expensive NT Server licenses. This largely shut Netscape out of the lucrative web server business as well (the other leg). Out of desperation, Netscape even retargeted its netscape.com web site as a "portal." I don't know definitively whether this was a sucessful move, but it's known today the 3 dominant portals are Yahoo, MSN and AOL. Mozilla has nothing to do with XEmacs.
It is continuing to mature and improve. I've been pushing for improvements in the core performance, and it is getting much tighter. Unfortunately sometimes they give me what I asked for and I then regret it because it changes the way I'm approaching things.
The reason why there are problems with many bank sites is because they build to IE/NN4 and don't care about w3c conformance. Well monied major corporations really should put some resources back into projects such as Mozilla and Linux. You know, the kind of idea that goes, by helping the whole of society and not counting every bean, we will reap intangible rewards. In other words, I need a job, and I want to hack Mozilla.
Netscape Navigator is Open Sourcs Software. Netscape Navigator is GPLd. Please (everybody) read the sig tag. It's OK to b!tch when things don't go right, but if a person doesn't report a bug once in a while, or make some other kind of contribution, that person is a leech if he or she uses OSS.
Please call it Mozilla, so it's clear to all people what you're referring to. The Netscape browser is a commercialized release of the Mozilla project. Whether Netscape under AOL/Time-Warner is commercially viable does not interest me much (although they do pay hackers to shepherd the Mozilla project). However, the success of the Mozilla project is highly important to me. I've used it very frequently since 0.9.3, and it's worked rather well. I've used a large number of secure sites (HTTPS), including banking. If you want all the benefits of Netscape 6.1, without all the extra commercial baggage, use Mozilla instead. The only substantial loss (IIRC) is that Mozilla lacks a dictionary for spell checking, because the dictionary is a licensed component. Generally speaking, the only sites that don't support Mozilla are the braindead sites that sniff the User-Agent HTTP header, and block out anything but IE or Netscape Navigator. Although I can fake the header using Mozilla, I'd rather not visit any site with such a STUPID policy. To get Java support under Mozilla, you want to download the Blackdown Java2 SDK/JRE (http://java.blackdown.org). Finally, to finish off my somewhat opinionated post, SuSE users will want to get Mozilla here: ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/projects/mozilla The Red Hat 7.0 RPMs from mozilla.org work just as well. :ml
I've been getting very frustrated with the Linux version of Netscape 6.1. The Messenger part of it seems extremely buggy, particularly with respect to keyboard operations. A couple of examples (there are many more):
It's just the same in the windows version. A lot of functionality that exists in 4.7X is simply missing in 6.X and there is no sign that it will be restored. -- Lester Caine ----------------------------- L.S.Caine Electronic Services
participants (9)
-
Cliff Sarginson -
FX Fraipont -
lester＠lsces.co.uk -
Man Ly -
Nick Zentena -
Paul Abrahams -
Praise -
Steven Hatfield -
Steven T. Hatton