[opensuse] i586 TW
Why is there an i586 of TW, when there is no Leap i586? What's the point of testing it if no one can use it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> [05-06-17 19:41]:
Why is there an i586 of TW, when there is no Leap i586? What's the point of testing it if no one can use it?
TW is not "testing", that is factory. And TW is not Leap XX.X. why do you think no one can use it? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> [05-06-17 20:03]:
I guess. I have been using Tw for quite a few years as a productive environment, on 4 boxes. I have leap 42.2 as a server. factory is the development environment, precursor to Tw. But basically they are the same. many packages appear on factory before release and then to Tw. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-05-07 02:06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
TW = Factory
It is, but not directly. But both TW and Leap are releases. One rolling, the other fixed.
I guess I am confused.
Your confusion is normal and typical.
Factory is just an internal stage, it is not published. If RB is reading, he will soon tell you that factory does not exist. The reason that there is no 32 bit Leap is because Leap takes its kernel from SLE, and there is no 32 bit SLE. SLE derives directly from Factory after much testing and fixing. Leap takes the core from SLE, and adds about 60% from TW. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))
Tumbleweed and Leap are two different distributions with discreet code bases. Tumbleweed is not the testing branch for Leap. The long explanation for that is my video from FOSDEM on the topic: https://youtu.be/GoKYpj6LuJg Tumbleweed has an i586 version because we have contributors maintaining it. Leap does not because we do not have contributors maintaining it. The sad truth though is that even with the support of our contributors for i586 Tumbleweed, the architecture itself is DEAD and unmaintainable in the long term. The amount of packages that just can not build for i586 is increasing. Things like Firefox are becoming unfeasible to build for i586. The capability for our maintainers to fix them are decreasing. It is just a matter of time before i586 Tumbleweed is either dropped, or at least retired as an official part of the release (i.e. It will no longer be tested, or at least the test results will be ignored when deciding wheather to release). When that time comes it could be very sudden, we're basically one developers decision away from potential major breakage that could force our hand. And we've been in that state for well over a year, sooner or later i586 Tumbleweeds luck is going to run out. On 7 May 2017 at 04:05, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
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"Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> writes:
OK I think the terms "factory" and "snapshot" and the number of updates that come through for Tumbleweed (although admittedly I was doing it wrongly with zypper) are putting me in the wrong frame of mind. :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Op zondag 7 mei 2017 04:05:09 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
No, it's not. Factory is the development, TW the rolling release.
Wrong. It isn't. Not indirectly either
That's not the reason. Fact that so far no one has stepped up to take the challenge and do the job is.
SLE derives directly from Factory after much testing and fixing. Leap takes the core from SLE, and adds about 60% from TW.
-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 07/05/2017 à 16:26, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink a écrit :
That's not the reason. Fact that so far no one has stepped up to take the challenge and do the job is.
this is largely a egg and chicken question. Announce any version will no more be supported and you will see the drop of people stepping in. I have nearly at any of my Linux user Group meeting (twice a month) people coming to have linux installed with 32 bits computers. I have a nearly new (less than one year) computer with 64 bits processor... and 32 bits bios/windows that makes it very difficult to install 64 bits linux (easy with debian 32/64 iso). For sure I support the idea that 32 bits distro is going to disappear, but in this situation, I would greatly appreciate an "evergreen" 32 bits only version, be it any tw version or 13.2 the best choice could to say that the last 32 bits TW be a long term support - or discuss alternate solutions. jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-05-07 16:26, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
Depends on who says it.
In your opinion.
That's the official explanation now. The explanation at the time was that SLES had dropped 32 bit support, so there was no 32 bit kernel ready, and it had to be done by somebody. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-07-17 17:11]:
will make a believer of you if you use factory repos insead of Tw repos. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-05-07 23:49, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Carlos E. R. <> [05-07-17 17:11]:
will make a believer of you if you use factory repos insead of Tw repos.
Oh, I know about that. But most of those are simply TW repos that have not changed the name. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-07-17 18:25]:
then you *must* agree that Tw != factory if 1 != 2 then they are different, ie: not the *same* -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On personal title .. Op zondag 7 mei 2017 23:10:41 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
What?????
Opinion != fact. TW != Factory
Step up, start building and you'll see it's not like that. We all would be proud to see you do it.
The explanation at the time was that SLES had dropped 32 bit support, so there was no 32 bit kernel ready, and it had to be done by somebody.
Come on, you're one of the people who should know !! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-05-08 00:34, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
On personal title ..
Op zondag 7 mei 2017 23:10:41 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:
...
I do. Three samples: Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 06:48:02 +0200 From: Werner Flamme <> To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] 42.1 and 32 bit Parts/Attachments: 1 Shown ~27 lines Text ---------------------------------------- [ This message was cryptographically signed. ] Stephan Kulow [27.08.2015 12:27]:
I see. Since SLE 12 is 64 bit only, it would be quite a lot of work to <========= create a 32 bit branch for Leap. Werner ----- Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:14:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Johannes Meixner <...@suse.de> To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] 42.1 and 32 bit Hello, On Aug 28 09:07 Michal Kubecek wrote (excerpt):
... our limited resources ...
What exactly do you mean with "our"? I think: If you mean openSUSE contributors then those are free to spend their time on what they like to get done. In contrast if you mean SUSE employees it is out of scope when they spend SUSE working hours on issues that have no relevance for SUSE products. Of course SUSE employees are free to spend their leisure time on basically anything they like. Because SLE12 is only made for 64-bit, 32-bit specific issues <========= have no relevance for SLE12 products and accordingly a 32-bit version of Leap as no relevance for SUSE. Regarding a 32-bit version of Leap made by openSUSE contributors see my other mail. This not any kind of official statement. It is only my personal point of view. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner ----- Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2015 13:13:12 +0200 From: gumb <...@linuxmail.org> To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: 42.1 and 32 bit ... I've read much of the reasoning for going 64-bit only, and I can see the predicament. There are some reasoned voices in here who have laid out some of the facts and the difficulties faced with continuing 32-bit. But there are also a number of very defensive and at times rather unpleasant folk of whom I'm not sure of their motivations other than sticking the knife in to those less fortunate than themselves; a sort of baying group of bullies. Granted, until now I've never followed the Factory list, but I've rarely seen such a disconnect between *some* of the openSUSE 'contributors' (broadly speaking) and regular users. Given that one of Linux's long-standing strong selling points has been that it runs very well on older hardware and allows you to keep such machines in use, for the sake of three more years of support for up to 15% of the user base, I think openSUSE should continue to offer 32-bit, and if it's a question of money and build machines, SUSE ought to donate some servers to the cause. Yes, they really should. There may be a complete separation of SUSE from openSUSE but still the former should contribute more to support the latter, if not financially then by way of hardware donations. If they want to achieve this virtuous circle of TW > SUSE > openSUSE (maybe it's a triangle then) they should be prepared to help out more in the regular user community, because that's where the interest for Tumbleweed and hence SUSE additions will come from later on. Alas, they've already abandoned 32-bit themselves with SLE12 so it seems they're bloody-minded on this issue. ----- The thread is very long, I only looked a bit. Just some samples. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
Le 02/06/2017 à 15:16, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
On 2017-05-08 00:34, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
why resurrect this :-) I installed TW 32 bits recently on a 12 years old computer I have in my linux user group with 1250 MB ram, with absolutely no problem, and with an other same but with only 512Mb, it was long but manageable. else I would have to use debian. I read also that some applications do not anymore compile easily with 32 bits and this is bad news. Of course I know this hardware is becoming rarer with time, but I also have new hardware with 64 bit processor and windows 32 bits, which is difficult to get linux on it, but this gives me the feeling that 32 bits applications are not to die if windows 32 bits still exists jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Of course I know this hardware is becoming rarer with time, but I also
Running 32bit in virtual environments is useful too. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/06/17 01:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
:-) Maybe we should resurrect some 16-bit Linux :-) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 06/02/2017 01:25 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
I'm sure there's some 4 bit Intel 4004 CPUs in service somewhere. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott wrote:
I have a 1bit Motorola microprocessor somewhere - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_MC14500B -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/06/17 01:40 PM, James Knott wrote:
Ok, lets cut to the chase: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-bit_architecture And yes, you could have run a form of "unix" on one of them. Back in the mid 1970s I worked for a short while with a MIL-SPEC rated 1-bit CPU. It was supposed to be a 16-bit 'computer" in that it had 16-bit words and addressing, but the "mill" was 1-bit. It was simple and !FAST!, fast enough to keep up with the "real" 16-bit processors of that day, the early Intel 8086, the Zilog Z-8000 and the early Motorola, as well as some fringe machines that implemented Pascal or FORTH directly. Strictly speaking, it was a 'bit-serial' machine, the type of architecture that was common in the 1950s when hardware was !expensive!. Sorry, I can't recall it's name. it was a evaluation unit and in a couple of days I decided it was a no-go. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
It is significant. I can run a lot more 32bit processes on a 32bit oS, than 64bit processes on a 64bit oS on the same hardware. With 32bit, you get more bang for the buck - under the right circumstances. For e.g. virtual hosting, you get more xen domUs, but also for a postfix mailserver running thousands of smtpd processes. Quite possibly similar for a dovecot machine with thousands of users. I have some 40 machines running mail servers - typically 4 cores with HT, 12G memory, it varies. In 32 bit they can easily run 2000 smtpd processes each, in 64bit a lot less. I haven't actually tried or measured, just rule of thumb. There have been suggestions to just run postfix 32bit on 64bit oS, I'll be trying that out at some point, when we move to Leap in production. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Le 02/06/2017 à 20:16, Per Jessen a écrit :
It is significant. I can run a lot more 32bit processes on a 32bit oS, than 64bit processes on a 64bit oS on the same hardware.
if so, may be somebody have to sponsor a 32 bit team for tw :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Well, yes and no. For virtual hosting, at the level where it matters, the problem is easily solved with hardware, as I think you also suggested. FOr me runing thousands of smtpd processes, I think the better solution is to run a 32-bit postfix on 64bit oS. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.2°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
jdd@dodin.org wrote:
I don't have one right now, there is no 32-bit postfix package being built. There are other 32bit packages though, so it's only a matter of creating one. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
... being built for openSUSE 64bit, i.e. for Leap. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 03/06/17 05:11 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
What about "Docker" as an alternative to a VM? I'm not knowledgeable but the couple of magazine style articles I've read lead me to believe that Docker offers a light-weight alternative to a VM. I haven't a clue if a Docker module could be built for 32-bits. Hmm, google tells me https://github.com/docker-32bit And is it really this simple? https://www.slideshare.net/dotCloud/postfix-tuto4 -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward wrote:
It's a possibility, I don't know about Docker to say if it's suitable for virtual hosting. I looked at Linux containers some years back, they were okay for e.g. separating webhosts.
And is it really this simple? https://www.slideshare.net/dotCloud/postfix-tuto4
Quite likely, but way overkill for running 2000 smtpd processes. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-06-02 15:36, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Because he said that what I said was false. I had to wait till I could search my archive to prove my recollection was correct. No, I do not want to resurrect a thread about 32 bit been dead or not ;-) However, I keep a 32 bit machine on 13.1, isolated. For my home server I had to purchase new hardware. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))
Le 02/06/2017 à 16:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
However, I keep a 32 bit machine on 13.1, isolated. For my home server I had to purchase new hardware.
of find one in a trash can (I did once :-)) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> [05-06-17 19:41]:
Why is there an i586 of TW, when there is no Leap i586? What's the point of testing it if no one can use it?
TW is not "testing", that is factory. And TW is not Leap XX.X. why do you think no one can use it? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> [05-06-17 20:03]:
I guess. I have been using Tw for quite a few years as a productive environment, on 4 boxes. I have leap 42.2 as a server. factory is the development environment, precursor to Tw. But basically they are the same. many packages appear on factory before release and then to Tw. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-05-07 02:06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
TW = Factory
It is, but not directly. But both TW and Leap are releases. One rolling, the other fixed.
I guess I am confused.
Your confusion is normal and typical.
Factory is just an internal stage, it is not published. If RB is reading, he will soon tell you that factory does not exist. The reason that there is no 32 bit Leap is because Leap takes its kernel from SLE, and there is no 32 bit SLE. SLE derives directly from Factory after much testing and fixing. Leap takes the core from SLE, and adds about 60% from TW. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))
Tumbleweed and Leap are two different distributions with discreet code bases. Tumbleweed is not the testing branch for Leap. The long explanation for that is my video from FOSDEM on the topic: https://youtu.be/GoKYpj6LuJg Tumbleweed has an i586 version because we have contributors maintaining it. Leap does not because we do not have contributors maintaining it. The sad truth though is that even with the support of our contributors for i586 Tumbleweed, the architecture itself is DEAD and unmaintainable in the long term. The amount of packages that just can not build for i586 is increasing. Things like Firefox are becoming unfeasible to build for i586. The capability for our maintainers to fix them are decreasing. It is just a matter of time before i586 Tumbleweed is either dropped, or at least retired as an official part of the release (i.e. It will no longer be tested, or at least the test results will be ignored when deciding wheather to release). When that time comes it could be very sudden, we're basically one developers decision away from potential major breakage that could force our hand. And we've been in that state for well over a year, sooner or later i586 Tumbleweeds luck is going to run out. On 7 May 2017 at 04:05, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
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"Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> writes:
OK I think the terms "factory" and "snapshot" and the number of updates that come through for Tumbleweed (although admittedly I was doing it wrongly with zypper) are putting me in the wrong frame of mind. :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
James Knott -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Richmond