[opensuse] I don't want an openSuSE supported MTA!
Can I ask the powers that be, why I am being somewhat forced to use an openSuSE supported MTA? I am running openSuSE 13.1 x64 and using YaST I cannot get it to NOT install an MTA. I am using the Apache James email server as my MTA and I want to use the mini-sendmail version of sendmail. So I go to YaST and tell it to uninstall Postfix. It happily does so, but then it installs Exim on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements) I DON'T want Exim so I tell YaST to uninstall Exim which it happily does, but then it installs MSMTP-MTA on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements) I DON'T want MSMTP-MTA so I tell YaST to uninstall MSMTP-MTA which it happily does, but then it installs BSD sendmail. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements) I DON'T want BSD sendmail so I tell YaST to uninstall BSD sendmail which it happily does, but then it goes back and installs MSMTP-MTA on me. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements) And now I am going in circles. I DON'T want one of these MTA's, why am I being forced into having to have one? They will conflict with using the Apache James email server and mini-sendmail which as I said, they are the ones I WANT to use! It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option. I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD! Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead? Marc..... -- "The Truth is out there" - Spooky -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon 21 Jul 2014 01:55:00 PM CDT, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Can I ask the powers that be, why I am being somewhat forced to use an openSuSE supported MTA? I am running openSuSE 13.1 x64 and using YaST I cannot get it to NOT install an MTA. I am using the Apache James email server as my MTA and I want to use the mini-sendmail version of sendmail.
So I go to YaST and tell it to uninstall Postfix. It happily does so, but then it installs Exim on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want Exim so I tell YaST to uninstall Exim which it happily does, but then it installs MSMTP-MTA on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want MSMTP-MTA so I tell YaST to uninstall MSMTP-MTA which it happily does, but then it installs BSD sendmail. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want BSD sendmail so I tell YaST to uninstall BSD sendmail which it happily does, but then it goes back and installs MSMTP-MTA on me. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
And now I am going in circles. I DON'T want one of these MTA's, why am I being forced into having to have one? They will conflict with using the Apache James email server and mini-sendmail which as I said, they are the ones I WANT to use!
It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option. I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD! Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead?
Marc.....
Hi Just disable and stop the postfix service.... systemctl stop postfix.service systemctl disable postfix.service If your worried about a few megabits of disk space...well.... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) 3.10.1 Kernel 3.11.10-17-desktop up 1 day 6:38, 3 users, load average: 0.25, 0.23, 0.23 CPU Intel® B840@1.9GHz | GPU Intel® Sandybridge Mobile -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 7/21/2014 5:08 PM, Malcolm wrote:
On Mon 21 Jul 2014 01:55:00 PM CDT, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Just disable and stop the postfix service....
systemctl stop postfix.service systemctl disable postfix.service
If your worried about a few megabits of disk space...well....
Among the few different reasons to remove unused software, the disk space is not the important one. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/21/2014 04:55 PM, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option. I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD! Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead?
+1 I use Thunderbird. I fetch from my ISPs via IMAP and I use those ISPs' SMTP port to send mail. There is no need to have a local MTA. I've bee told that if you didn't install a MTA to start with at instlation time you are not forced to install one later and get caught in the dependency 'circles of hell' you describe. But that seems a bit lame to me. As you say, we should be able to not have a MTA. So I try going in to yast and putting a 'taboo' on all you mention. Hmmmmmm. It seems to work. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-21 a las 17:10 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
I use Thunderbird. I fetch from my ISPs via IMAP and I use those ISPs' SMTP port to send mail. There is no need to have a local MTA.
Yes, there is. It is not there so that you can email your friends with it :-) Unix/Linux machines require an MTA for _internal_ email sent by daemons to the admin or to the users.
So I try going in to yast and putting a 'taboo' on all you mention. Hmmmmmm. It seems to work.
As long as you do not use cron, or at, or smartd, or mdadm, or... :-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPNoUwACgkQja8UbcUWM1ylpgD/RhB4nzduobkfHp9aOl/2+yOm 8P4iiQ5D9srOFp0r6nYA/13a5Ib9BcWFwD592pNJPWtFYf13tu3CeYBaFCjgGPbi =COci -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
El 21/07/14 19:25, Carlos E. R. escribió:
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El 2014-07-21 a las 17:10 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
I use Thunderbird. I fetch from my ISPs via IMAP and I use those ISPs' SMTP port to send mail. There is no need to have a local MTA.
Yes, there is. It is not there so that you can email your friends with it :-)
Unix/Linux machines require an MTA for _internal_ email sent by daemons to the admin or to the users.
So I try going in to yast and putting a 'taboo' on all you mention. Hmmmmmm. It seems to work.
As long as you do not use cron, or at, or smartd, or mdadm, or... :-)
Fortunalely, many of these tools can be configured to only do syslog/journal instead of mail. Other could be extended to use an smtp client library for the job. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-22 a las 01:16 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez escribió:
El 21/07/14 19:25, Carlos E. R. escribió:
As long as you do not use cron, or at, or smartd, or mdadm, or... :-)
Fortunalely, many of these tools can be configured to only do syslog/journal instead of mail.
I rather prefer email, no need to inspect logs and notice the events. And some of these events produce very verbose logs - for instance, the old security checks may produce a half a megabyte email.
Other could be extended to use an smtp client library for the job.
As long as it can put email in /var/spool/mail... Some of those apps also expect a "sendmail" binary. Postfix keeps one just for that purpose. If that minimal email daemon provides the basics, it could easily replace postfix on default installations. Otherwise, just keep postfix with a default config that can not email outside (but easy to change). - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPOEhEACgkQja8UbcUWM1zfqgD/b+GIYw32NVv5g2lBT25XkBca +OK1rQu+hG2hoWlnvR0A/RzXGN8ci0uls+MU/kESjvo/2jdd87CvExrNptDixUVO =qbUi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 07/22/2014 03:26 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As long as it can put email in /var/spool/mail...
NOT! *VERY* NOT! That's the whole thing wrong here. So here an I (and many others) reading mail using Thunderbird (or similar) as a 'thin' client trying hard not to store the mail on this lightweight machine. Maybe we're doing a Netbook, Chromebook, or Tablet or a think client on a network. Whatever, it doesn't matter. So I have many IMAP accounts out there. I'm not thinking in terms of local mail. I'm not sure I can even point Thunderbird at /var/spool/mail/anton Lets stop for a moment and think. So here I am at TimHortons sipping my coffee and reading my mail on on Wrote Linux? There's no on-board SMTP server and with the file inspector I can see there's no /var/spool/mail. Conclusion: Linux doesn't need an on-bard smtp server or /var/spool/mail. Corrollary: any programs that FORCE the use of a smtp server or write directly to /var/spool/mail are brain damaged and should be fixed.
Some of those apps also expect a "sendmail" binary. Postfix keeps one just for that purpose.
A true observation that misses the point. We need to identify those apps and fix them. In the distant past I used to alias just about everything, including root and postmaster, to an 'anton' address off site, at one of the addresses where I can read the email using T'Bird. In the long run I found there was very little that came though. -- Bullet proof vest vendors do not need to demonstrate that naked people are vulnerable to gunfire. Similarly, a security consultant does not need to demonstrate an actual vulnerability in order to claim there is a valid risk. The lack of a live exploit does not mean there is no risk. -- Crispin Cowan, 23 Aug 2002 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-22 a las 07:23 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
On 07/22/2014 03:26 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As long as it can put email in /var/spool/mail...
NOT! *VERY* NOT!
Yes, very yes :-)
That's the whole thing wrong here.
So here an I (and many others) reading mail using Thunderbird (or similar) as a 'thin' client trying hard not to store the mail on this lightweight machine. Maybe we're doing a Netbook, Chromebook, or Tablet or a think client on a network.
But having an smtp service on your linux machine does not interfere at all with Thunderbird, or any other similar mail client, which normally don't use the local smtp daemon at all! Nor the local spool. Thunderbird, unless you tell it to, uses its own methods.
Whatever, it doesn't matter.
So I have many IMAP accounts out there. I'm not thinking in terms of local mail. I'm not sure I can even point Thunderbird at /var/spool/mail/anton
You could. :-)
So here I am at TimHortons sipping my coffee and reading my mail on on Wrote Linux? There's no on-board SMTP server and with the file inspector I can see there's no /var/spool/mail.
Conclusion: Linux doesn't need an on-bard smtp server or /var/spool/mail.
No, you are confusing things. That's not why the local mail service exists.
Corrollary: any programs that FORCE the use of a smtp server or write directly to /var/spool/mail are brain damaged and should be fixed.
Nope. I'll explain if you cool down :-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPOl/wACgkQja8UbcUWM1ygzwD/Y+JELVx09RR2EOd4I4dIdKmf GL0DeCROKwhvhYhkVLwA+gO+iG4lA4xAQlMYck85IGLAFnislKYKUvnoHNP9xRWe =QBmR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 07/22/2014 12:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Conclusion: Linux doesn't need an on-bard smtp server or /var/spool/mail.
No, you are confusing things. That's not why the local mail service exists.
Corrollary: any programs that FORCE the use of a smtp server or write directly to /var/spool/mail are brain damaged and should be fixed. Nope.
I'll explain if you cool down :-)
Its not about cooling down. Its about not needed a SMTP server. PERIOD. This is demonstrated by the number of systems that work quite well, handle notifications and alerts quite well, without an on-board SMTP server. If you are unwilling to accept that MS-DOS and Windows has been doing it for decades then look to the Linux derived Android running on my phone and tablet. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-07-27 00:02, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 12:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
If you are unwilling to accept that MS-DOS and Windows has been doing it for decades
Badly. And their own way. Not the Linux way of things. The MsDOS / Windows argument doesn't buy any favor with me, sorry. In fact, that they do something in some manner is reason enough NOT to do it in Linux.
then look to the Linux derived Android running on my phone and tablet.
Heavily modified so as to be unrecognizable. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 7/26/2014 6:02 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 12:57 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Conclusion: Linux doesn't need an on-bard smtp server or /var/spool/mail.
No, you are confusing things. That's not why the local mail service exists.
Corrollary: any programs that FORCE the use of a smtp server or write directly to /var/spool/mail are brain damaged and should be fixed. Nope.
I'll explain if you cool down :-)
Its not about cooling down. Its about not needed a SMTP server. PERIOD.
This is demonstrated by the number of systems that work quite well, handle notifications and alerts quite well, without an on-board SMTP server.
If you are unwilling to accept that MS-DOS and Windows has been doing it for decades then look to the Linux derived Android running on my phone and tablet.
Actually this is untrue, and so any arguments based on it are invalid. They may not have an smtp server, but they have something even worse, their own proprietary message passers and loggers. The same job gets done. It just gets done even less efficiently and less flexibly. You have no valid basis for an argument here except for a possible security attack surface argument. Software that isn't installed can't be hacked. There is no argument based on efficiency for a lightweight netbook or other desktop though. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/22/2014 01:16 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
So I try going in to yast and putting a 'taboo' on all you mention. Hmmmmmm. It seems to work.
As long as you do not use cron, or at, or smartd, or mdadm, or... :-)
Fortunalely, many of these tools can be configured to only do syslog/journal instead of mail.
+1 heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux? -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 22/07/14 07:01, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Yes, this is still a problem, I do not see a solution that would please noisy "traditionalists". -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/22/2014 12:20 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El 22/07/14 07:01, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Yes, this is still a problem, I do not see a solution that would please noisy "traditionalists".
Well this is one <strike>dinosaur</strike> "traditionalist" of many decades of Linux/AIX/SUNOS/Solaris/UNIX use who quite happy with the way his Android (aka linux derived) cell phone and tablet handles notifications without the use of a SMTP server. Perhaps some creative genius can back port the notification mechanism (does it use D-BUS?) from Android to Linux? -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 26/07/14 18:05, Anton Aylward escribió: r.
Perhaps some creative genius can back port the notification mechanism (does it use D-BUS?) from Android to Linux?
Not exactly the same thing, but if everything goes as planned we will have KDBUS replacing the userspace dbus daemon. Currently only systemd knows about it though, to test it you have to compile your own systemd and your own kernel module, not enabled in distribution packages. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-22 a las 07:01 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Why do we have to do it the Windows way? - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPOmEYACgkQja8UbcUWM1yZmQD+IxxVqWStTNecjV+b3oI0cNli kkuarqjDnSH8lM9jamAA/0SmRNiCJL+hK4pIWdq+IUAuW8L5MRJ5Q/Xv5RBNkbFc =Rlz1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 07/22/2014 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-22 a las 07:01 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Why do we have to do it the Windows way?
We don't. We can do it the "Android way". And isn't Android derived from Linux? -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-07-27 00:06, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-22 a las 07:01 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Why do we have to do it the Windows way?
We don't. We can do it the "Android way". And isn't Android derived from Linux?
You don't use the Linux in Android. You can not run daemons and your own jobs. You can not even read the system logs. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On Sun 27 Jul 2014 01:43:05 AM CDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-07-27 00:06, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-22 a las 07:01 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Why do we have to do it the Windows way?
We don't. We can do it the "Android way". And isn't Android derived from Linux?
You don't use the Linux in Android. You can not run daemons and your own jobs. You can not even read the system logs.
Hi Hmmm, on my rooted ASUS Transforemer I can... ;) root@tf101:/ # uname -a Linux localhost 2.6.39.4-kat116-g8ac08f4 #83 SMP PREEMPT Fri Jun 20 root@tf101:/ # logcat|more --------- beginning of /dev/log/system V/WindowManager( 477): Layouts looping: after finishPostLayoutPolicyLw, mPendingLayoutChanges = 0x1 W/WindowManager( 477): Animation repeat aborted after too many iterations V/WindowManager( 477): Layouts looping: On entry to LockedInner, mPendingLayoutChanges = 0x1 V/WindowManager( 477): Layouts looping: loop number 5, mPendingLayoutChanges = 0x0 On my testing iPhone 5s I can see the logs as well with the linux libimobiledevice-tools package. First thing I did when I got the ASUS years ago was root it.... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) 3.10.1 Kernel 3.11.10-17-desktop up 1 day 2:32, 3 users, load average: 0.14, 0.17, 0.22 CPU Intel® B840@1.9GHz | GPU Intel® Sandybridge Mobile -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-07-27 02:04, Malcolm wrote:
On Sun 27 Jul 2014 01:43:05 AM CDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:
You don't use the Linux in Android. You can not run daemons and your own jobs. You can not even read the system logs.
Hi Hmmm, on my rooted ASUS Transforemer I can... ;)
Rooted! That's the keyword. Normal Android hids from you logs and things.
First thing I did when I got the ASUS years ago was root it....
For me, an Android phone is just a phone with some extra features and lots of espionage added on it. So the less things I do on it, the better. Had I known that aspect prior to buying it, perhaps I'd looked for something else. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
On 07/26/2014 08:04 PM, Malcolm wrote:
On Sun 27 Jul 2014 01:43:05 AM CDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-07-27 00:06, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > > El 2014-07-22 a las 07:01 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió: > > >>> heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal >>> notifications of varying importance without the need to have an >>> on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux? > > Why do we have to do it the Windows way?
We don't. We can do it the "Android way". And isn't Android derived from Linux?
You don't use the Linux in Android. You can not run daemons and your own jobs. You can not even read the system logs.
Hi Hmmm, on my rooted ASUS Transforemer I can... ;)
I don't even need to root my Samsung tablet. I can use the ES file manager to - or any one of a number of other file managers - to navigate the file system tree and read any text file. if its not a text file I might have a tool to view it, e.g. .pdf or a graphics file or a html file. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/26/2014 07:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2014-07-27 00:06, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 12:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-22 a las 07:01 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
Why do we have to do it the Windows way?
We don't. We can do it the "Android way". And isn't Android derived from Linux?
You don't use the Linux in Android. You can not run daemons and your own jobs. You can not even read the system logs.
That is not so. There are many tools, even in the play store, for looking 'under the hood'. There are a number of things that amount to reverse proxy servers which can make my tablet act like a file server or a sshd. Gordie Dixon once said There is no such thing as an impossible, only a thing the doing of which has not yet been found. In absolute terms perhaps that is not the case but as far as software goes I think it holds. Heck, "YO!" has garnered $!M in investments and more: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/yo-one-word-messaging-app-is-valued-a... Who'd have thought? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 7/22/2014 7:01 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 07/22/2014 01:16 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
So I try going in to yast and putting a 'taboo' on all you mention. Hmmmmmm. It seems to work.
As long as you do not use cron, or at, or smartd, or mdadm, or... :-)
Fortunalely, many of these tools can be configured to only do syslog/journal instead of mail.
+1
heck, if Microsoft Windows can manage to deal with internal notifications of varying importance without the need to have an on-board SMTP server, why can't Linux?
It has something both equivalent and even more complex and larger in terms of lines of code and megabytes on disk, in the form of it's own internal message logging services. The same job still has to get done physically some how. Messages ARE generated and ARE stored and ARE passed along. There is no getting away from the need to pass messages and store messages. The fact that it currently takes the form of a nice universal and flexible standard like email, that can be used either locally on disk, or over a local net or over an internet or any unpredictable mix of those, is a *good* thing. Converting the job into a special single purpose proprietary tool is a downgrade. That is the same complaint with systemd vs init scripts. init scripts can do anything, can be read by humans, can be read and modified even in the context of being stuck at an emergency boot shell with no tools at all but the shell itself at your disposal. Someone can write an init script one year, and 15 years later, after the company that wrote the original script no longer exists, the guy who wrote it is dead, and the very OS the original script was written for is no longer used, yet today, I can still use it, because, it's just a shell script. I can go in and change the details that need changing. A sscript from one OS 20 years ago is still usable on a completely different OS 20 years later. It's that lack of wasting time and effort re-inventing the wheel that gives us the leisure to invent rockets. That same sort of open-endedness is why it's silly to be up in arms about gutting a perfectly good logging and messaging system that is basic and universal, with something else which is complicated and proprietary, or something else that might be simple but only by virtue of being non-functional. When you say, "take apps that expect to speak to an mta, and make them write to log files instead", that is not fixing them, that is breaking a universal interface that was deliberately created for a reason. Many reasons. It's like doing a lot of work for generations to finally get everyone to adopt the same metric system. FINALLY One manufacturers screws fit in another manufacturers nuts. And by now, now that it's been true for a few years FINALLY the wrenches nuts & bolts you buy today can be used to work on a car that was built 20 years ago. That's a *good* thing. Mechanical development did not stagnate because everyone stopped inventing their own thread pitches, it took off like a rocket BECAUSE of that. And then after one new generation grows up not knowing anything else, they say this metric system is old, any companies that want to measure things using those old metric units are broken, we should fix them so everyone has their own different units of measure because I Lennart Poettering and I Cristian Rodriguez don't like Litres. Litres are insane. I have a new way of measuring volumes of liquids and lengths of distance, based on time. A systemd gallon is the amount of water that flows through a given size pipe in a given amount of time. The size of the pipe is measured in my new systemd inches, and the amount of time is measured in my new systemd seconds... -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El mar 22 jul 2014 16:06:06 CLT, Brian K. White escribió:
That is the same complaint with systemd vs init scripts. init scripts can do anything, can be read by humans, can be read and modified even in the context of being stuck at an emergency boot shell with no tools at all but the shell itself at your disposal. Someone can write an init script one year, and 15 years later, after the company that wrote the original script no longer exists, the guy who wrote it is dead, and the very OS the original script was written for is no longer used, yet today, I can still use it, because, it's just a shell script. I can go in and change the details that need changing. A sscript from one OS 20 years ago is still usable on a completely different OS 20 years later. It's that lack of wasting time and effort re-inventing the wheel that gives us the leisure to invent rockets.
You talk like this was a sort of solid, reliable and almost eternal way to do things.. the facts are quite the contrary, init scripts are not even portable across distributions and in some cases not even from one openSUSE product to another, they require maintenance to keep up with the underlying system changes. Init scripts were a collection of buggy, ad-hoc, racy and terminally uncontrollable scripts, that is now gone, replaced by an imperfect system in the long road to sanity. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2014-07-22 22:48, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El mar 22 jul 2014 16:06:06 CLT, Brian K. White escribió:
You talk like this was a sort of solid, reliable and almost eternal way to do things.. the facts are quite the contrary, init scripts are not even portable across distributions and in some cases not even from one openSUSE product to another, they require maintenance to keep up with the underlying system changes.
...which can be done, now, years ago, or years from now, because they are text files, readable by any one, adaptable, or convertible to a future script language still to be designed :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlPOz8kACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V1LACgg9sA+yWS12Py1AErc1M5uXtv UJsAn1C6SlF55E/DBGXsOm66MrQL2l7w =AYl/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 7/22/2014 4:48 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
El mar 22 jul 2014 16:06:06 CLT, Brian K. White escribió:
That is the same complaint with systemd vs init scripts. init scripts can do anything, can be read by humans, can be read and modified even in the context of being stuck at an emergency boot shell with no tools at all but the shell itself at your disposal. Someone can write an init script one year, and 15 years later, after the company that wrote the original script no longer exists, the guy who wrote it is dead, and the very OS the original script was written for is no longer used, yet today, I can still use it, because, it's just a shell script. I can go in and change the details that need changing. A sscript from one OS 20 years ago is still usable on a completely different OS 20 years later. It's that lack of wasting time and effort re-inventing the wheel that gives us the leisure to invent rockets.
You talk like this was a sort of solid, reliable and almost eternal way to do things.. the facts are quite the contrary, init scripts are not even portable across distributions and in some cases not even from one openSUSE product to another, they require maintenance to keep up with the underlying system changes.
Init scripts were a collection of buggy, ad-hoc, racy and terminally uncontrollable scripts, that is now gone, replaced by an imperfect system in the long road to sanity.
...and last year I could write and maintain a package that worked on hpux, solaris, freebsd, and linux. This year I have to do twice as much work, or, choose to support only linux, or only everthing else but linux. Gee it's just like Apple and the several different (and counting, now we have Swift for instance) ways they artificially erect barriers to developers from having a single codebase for their app that works on ios and anything else. Whatever advantages they use to try to sell the idea or justify the undesired rule, it's still an *anti-feature*. Shell scripts are not racey and buggy. That's like saying novels are boring. Statements like that are basically a self-documenting disqualification from being taken seriously any further. What's frustrating is that in a popularity contest, being right isn't what wins. Lucky you. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
El 21/07/14 16:55, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
Can I ask the powers that be, why I am being somewhat forced to use an openSuSE supported MTA? I am running openSuSE 13.1 x64 and using YaST I cannot get it to NOT install an MTA. I am using the Apache James email server as my MTA and I want to use the mini-sendmail version of sendmail.
So I go to YaST and tell it to uninstall Postfix. It happily does so, but then it installs Exim on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want Exim so I tell YaST to uninstall Exim which it happily does, but then it installs MSMTP-MTA on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want MSMTP-MTA so I tell YaST to uninstall MSMTP-MTA which it happily does, but then it installs BSD sendmail. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want BSD sendmail so I tell YaST to uninstall BSD sendmail which it happily does, but then it goes back and installs MSMTP-MTA on me. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
This is because there are still some packages that *require* capability smtp_daemon to be installed. rpm -q --whatrequires smtp_daemon Will tell you what packages do so.
It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option. I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD! Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead?
Old unix rearing its ugly head..an smtp daemon used to be required in the old days, some people still want this..so scheduled jobs send email for example. -- Cristian "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/21/2014 05:10 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
This is because there are still some packages that *require* capability smtp_daemon to be installed.
rpm -q --whatrequires smtp_daemon
Will tell you what packages do so.
anton@Mainbox:~> sudo rpm -q --whatrequires smtp_daemon no package requires smtp_daemon -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Anton Aylward [21.07.2014 23:18]:
On 07/21/2014 05:10 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
This is because there are still some packages that *require* capability smtp_daemon to be installed.
rpm -q --whatrequires smtp_daemon
Will tell you what packages do so.
anton@Mainbox:~> sudo rpm -q --whatrequires smtp_daemon no package requires smtp_daemon
On my 13.1 box: # rpm -q --whatrequires smtp_daemon smokeping-2.6.9-4.1.noarch amavisd-new-2.8.1-111.6.x86_64 monitoring-plugins-mailq-2.0-6.1.x86_64 php5-5.4.20-16.1.x86_64 -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-07-21 13:55 (GMT-0700) Marc Chamberlin composed:
It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option. I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD! Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead?
Dependencies of more than one type exist, akin to absolute on the one hand and suggestions on the other. You can avoid the latter, which AFAICT both sendmail and postfix generally are, by setting solver.onlyRequires = true in /etc/zypp/zypp.conf. Most of my openSUSE installations, among them more than one 13.1, have neither postfix nor sendmail installed. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-21 a las 13:55 -0700, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
Can I ask the powers that be, why I am being somewhat forced to use an openSuSE supported MTA? I am running openSuSE 13.1 x64 and using YaST I cannot get it to NOT install an MTA. I am using the Apache James email server as my MTA and I want to use the mini-sendmail version of sendmail.
Don't blame openSUSE. Blame whoever packaged that mini-sendmail for not saying in the specs that it provides smtp service (smtp_daemon) - if it does provide it, I don't know if it does. As to your circles, use taboo, and break deps. Up toyou, of course.
It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option.
No, you don't, as long as you still have another package installed that says it needs an MTA. That's how things work.
I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD!
Then don't send them. Or configure it not to send outside. That's not the reason an MTA is installed in all Linux/Unix machines.
Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead?
Just package that one properly :-) - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPNoCsACgkQja8UbcUWM1x8nAD/dhfMH7OesWso9kmF2zC86pjd //R/YAE9iYG3/BnCD4MA/AkOtAf91/V5224mM0HLzaPOtqUAfoo4ZmciF7AGd2hJ =UPhR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 22/07/14 06:55, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
Can I ask the powers that be, why I am being somewhat forced to use an openSuSE supported MTA? I am running openSuSE 13.1 x64 and using YaST I cannot get it to NOT install an MTA. I am using the Apache James email server as my MTA and I want to use the mini-sendmail version of sendmail.
So I go to YaST and tell it to uninstall Postfix. It happily does so, but then it installs Exim on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want Exim so I tell YaST to uninstall Exim which it happily does, but then it installs MSMTP-MTA on me, and a different kernel. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want MSMTP-MTA so I tell YaST to uninstall MSMTP-MTA which it happily does, but then it installs BSD sendmail. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
I DON'T want BSD sendmail so I tell YaST to uninstall BSD sendmail which it happily does, but then it goes back and installs MSMTP-MTA on me. (this is done in order to satisfy dependency requirements)
And now I am going in circles. I DON'T want one of these MTA's, why am I being forced into having to have one? They will conflict with using the Apache James email server and mini-sendmail which as I said, they are the ones I WANT to use!
It also seems to me that if I don't want ANY MTA on my system I ought to have that option. I may not want it to ever send email to anyone! PERIOD! Is there a different route I should take to get these MTA's off my system and let whatever programs need one, to use the one I want to provide instead?
Marc.....
When in YaST have you tried to apply against the apps you mention above the "Protected - Do Not Modify" flag? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4.13.3 & kernel 3.15.6-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Anton Aylward -
Basil Chupin -
Brian K. White -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Felix Miata -
Malcolm -
Marc Chamberlin -
Werner Flamme