How about all of us try to focus on the non-personal side of things for a while? How about No list member plays vigilante and calls other people out over

I just saw Henne's post, as I wasn't part of this discussion, but wanted to comment on a few major sources of grief on this list. Henne Vogelsang wrote: list "rules". Calling people out for such, publicly, on a list is NEVER a good way to get them to comply and is likely to cause defensive or offensive reactions probably far greater than 50% (and note, provoking someone with a greater than 50% success rate would be considered rather high in my book). On this particular topic -- especially the way the problem was phrased: Consider: two people talking publicly [at a special place for techies to gather and share opinions and ask for advice]. One asks a proper question to the surrounding populace, get's an answer from a second in the crowd. first formulates a reply, and get's another answer from that same person. At this point those two have a *private conversation* in a public place where others are no longer welcome to participate. THAT, IMO, is the initial rudeness. If you want to carry on a private conversation, take it off list -- you won't be interrupted there. By having the conversation, "on list", we are inviting other input. At this point a third party steps up and, for all intents and purposes interrupts, shouting at both (and anyone in earshot) "'you're doing it wrong!" --- "Shouts?" WAS IT IN ALL CAPS LIKE THIS WHICH ONLY, by convention is considered shouting in written communication because it denotes emphasis? How do they interrupt? They having pushed you apart, they *can't*. In fact, they can't even drown us out without our permission. It's not like real life where the loudest, most aggressive voice wins. Interrupts? Most email readers these days have some way of threading. You can choose to ignore any responses coming from someone other than your "chosen" speaking partner. In the extreme cases, you can filter out someone by subject and source -- or just source. Is this extremely rude? I find this is not only quite rude but highly insulting. ---- Um...let's see... having conversation at group event where everyone hears everything you say, and you want to shut people out of your conversation and make it private. That someone doesn't buy into you "owning the space" at a group event, you consider "rude". Doesn't that sound just a little bit odd?

So how about we leave the personal-side be for a while?

Maybe over time, we can concentrate on the positive personal aspects of this list which are certainly way bigger then the negative. I would totally agree, but if this list needs such verbally violent vigilante's to enforce list rules, then maybe it's time to rethink what rules are causing problems (as measured by number of vigilante actions) and regardless of their *argued* merit, lose them, so people won't have

---- It is rarely, or, it rarely _starts_ personally. It starts by someone taking it upon themselves to tell the other person that their behavior is unacceptable on this list. That's almost never going to end well when talking to a group of engineering-oriented techies who most often than not are used to getting things done by going and operating outside of the box (not within someone else's rules -- especially when those rules are brought up in the middle of trying to solve some technical issue. THAT's extremely annoying. It's minorly annoying when it happens to me, but I find it even more offensive when I have to suffer through someone else calling someone else out. ***IF*** by some rational, one feels they need to play vigilante, TAKE THE CORRECTION OFF LIST. It is almost never on topic and chastening someone publicly is a sure fire way to raise negative feelings. them to argue over. I can think of one other area that causes problems -- and I won't go into it in depth as this is already too long for many. But that is ignoring other people's input -- as it pertains to the OpenSuse software the are using. For many their interface is their *comfort food*. Mess with it, and one stirs a hornet's nest. Messing up people's personal systems for no good reason other than expediency is what Dictators do -- and those who maintain the ends justify the means. That the other source of upset. anyway... too long didn't read this...(just wrote this... ;-) )... Sorry for the late reply, but I didn't want to argue against the "spirit" of what you were saying, but did want to give some concrete problem issues that aren't really personal -- but are a result of the venue where these discussions takes place and its idiosyncrasies and those who take the vigilante role in enforcement. Linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org