On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 09:57 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

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It's quite obvious why this should be.

KDE will remain the default desktop for all products -EXCEPT- SLES and NLD.

http://www.opensound.com/ doesn't help me to find archives for the OSS list, nor does Google. Were you talking a different OSS? A link to the statement by the SuSE employee would be very helpful - I don't doubt you, but if I need something more specific to go by.

Can we drop this FUD now or move it to the OT list?

I rejoined SLE after several years specifically because of the "Gnome disappointment" thread. It takes all kinds. :) Bjørn -- Bjørn Tore Sund Phone: (+47) 555-84894 Stupidity is like a System administrator Fax: (+47) 555-89672 fractal; universal and Math. Department Mobile: (+47) 918 68075 infinitely repetitive. University of Bergen VIP: 81724 Support: system@mi.uib.no Contact: teknisk@mi.uib.no Direct: bjornts@mi.uib.no

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 16:19 +0100, Bjorn Tore Sund wrote:

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On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Ken Schneider wrote:

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On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 09:57 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

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It's quite obvious why this should be.

KDE will remain the default desktop for all products -EXCEPT- SLES and NLD.

http://www.opensound.com/ doesn't help me to find archives for the OSS list, nor does Google. Were you talking a different OSS?

The opensuse list. lists.opensuse.org

Doh. Thanks. Why is that TLA so popular? Unfortunately I've been unable to find out what Christoph Thiel's position within SuSE is, though his blog tells me he is 20 and writes web pages. And I'm not panicking, but that particular news report is causing me a lot of extra work. My employer is due to decide on a standard linux desktop platform tomorrow. We have conluded that KDE is by far the desktop system that suits us best. Based on the quality of the SuSE KDE configuration, we then chose OpenSuSE for our desktop distro (enterprise editions are too limited). This led to the recommendation that we purchase an 800 machines ZenWorks Linux management license, scheduled to grow to 1500 within two years and to include our 1000 Macintosh when ZenWorks is expanded to support Mac next autumn. That decision was also going to be made tomorrow. If we were really happy with ZenWorks on the Linux and Macintosh platforms, we'd probably have expanded our Zenworks license to also include management of our 5000 Windows machines at some point in the near future. Yes, there are other factors involved but that chain of decisions with KDE -> SuSE -> Zenworks is a base. Though no decisions had been made, a SLES standardisation on our 50-60 linux servers was likely based on the other set of choices. If I don't get a guarantee from SuSE/Novell (yes, I'm using other channels as well) that the SuSE KDE modifications and configurations will stay maintained at at least the same level as today, we're most likely dropping OpenSuSE and consequently SLES and ZenWorks. We have our final meeting tomorrow morning, we _might_ decide to just postpone our decision if I it seems likely that the guarantee is just a bit late. But sometime next week the analysis process will be restarted and RedHat/Fedora is a likely winner because of commercial software support - and then other alternatives for client management open up as well and will be looked closer at. Panicking? No. Frustrated? Yes. We don't have a problem, but would much rather this nonsense hadn't started to appear. But Novell is doing their best to loose business, and though we're only one small university I can't imagine that we're the only ones taking a step back to consider alternatives. SuSE's big advantage has been that they're _different_, the more like RedHat they try to be the less reason is there to choose SuSE over RedHat. -BT -- Bjørn Tore Sund Phone: (+47) 555-84894 Stupidity is like a System administrator Fax: (+47) 555-89672 fractal; universal and Math. Department Mobile: (+47) 918 68075 infinitely repetitive. University of Bergen VIP: 81724 Support: system@mi.uib.no Contact: teknisk@mi.uib.no Direct: bjornts@mi.uib.no

No, I'm not dropping this subject quite yet. On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Ken Schneider wrote:

As stated above OpenSuSE will continue to have KDE as the default desktop. The others will still provide KDE it just will not be the default. You're basing all of this rant on one false article. Search the lists at lists.opensuse.org for the post by suse regarding the desktop issue.

I haven't seen anything claiming that OpenSuSE will have KDE as the _default_ desktop, but that's irrelevant as long as it is offered WITH the SuSE adjustments and configurations as we see them being developed today.

Why would you be using OpenSuse in place of what was the Pro version (the boxed set) when the SuSE 10.x will provide some of the missing commercial software packages?

My SuSE 10.0 boxed set has the OpenSuSE logo all over it. If SuSE continues to support KDE to an appropriate level we'll keep buying those boxed sets.

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Panicking? No. Frustrated? Yes.

Sounds like more of panicking then frustrated.

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We don't have a problem, but would much rather this nonsense hadn't started to appear.

Then blame the person that wrote the article for providing wrong information.

I'm still not 100% happy with what I've seen from Novell on this matter, even allowing for the usual inaccuracy of the press the quotes are far too specific and clear. But I'm at least getting hopeful that this matter will clear itself. Bjørn -- Bjørn Tore Sund Phone: (+47) 555-84894 Stupidity is like a System administrator Fax: (+47) 555-89672 fractal; universal and Math. Department Mobile: (+47) 918 68075 infinitely repetitive. University of Bergen VIP: 81724 Support: system@mi.uib.no Contact: teknisk@mi.uib.no Direct: bjornts@mi.uib.no

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005, Kevanf1 wrote:

On 09/11/05, Bjorn Tore Sund wrote:

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If I don't get a guarantee from SuSE/Novell (yes, I'm using other channels as well) that the SuSE KDE modifications and configurations will stay maintained at at least the same level as today, we're most likely dropping OpenSuSE and consequently SLES and ZenWorks. We have our final meeting tomorrow morning, we _might_ decide to just postpone our decision if I it seems likely that the guarantee is just a bit late. But sometime next week the analysis process will be restarted and RedHat/Fedora is a likely winner because of commercial software support - and then other alternatives for client management open up as well and will be looked closer at.

Panicking? No. Frustrated? Yes. We don't have a problem, but would much rather this nonsense hadn't started to appear. But Novell is doing their best to loose business, and though we're only one small university I can't imagine that we're the only ones taking a step back to consider alternatives. SuSE's big advantage has been that they're _different_, the more like RedHat they try to be the less reason is there to choose SuSE over RedHat.

-BT --

I'm sorry Bjorn, but this does not make sense. Red Hat/Fedora have Gnome as the default already so why move to them when you already know the SuSE system. How can SuSE be getting more like RH/Fedora anyway? SuSE is not based on RH (as many other distros are) it was initially based on the Slackware distro and is now sufficiently different to warrant being termed a distro in its own right rather than a fork of course. I just do not see how it can get to be like RH/Fedora. Unless I've missed something here...

The one thing you're missing is what I didn't say; we are in the process of standardizing and centralizing our linux admin from having three mid-sized departments run their own client admin (using CentOS/RHEL, Fedora, and SuSE, respectively) into _one_ central system running one of these for all three departments and quite a few others. Redhat is far superior to SuSE in one major sphere: the support from commercial software products. From the sysadmin view, and especially when using a client management system as opposed to the manual single-machine tools, the two are essentially identical. Thus the user's experience becomes a central deciding point. And expecially as long as we judge KDE to be superior to Gnome, and SuSE's KDE setup to be superior to any others, _that_ is the reason to go for SuSE. If the SuSE KDE setup deteriorates we're better off with a default KDE setup, which can be done on any Linux distribution. At that point what remains is that Redhat currently does a better Gnome setup (and this is likely to stay the situation for a while, until SuSE gets its act together) and having a good alternative for users to choose is good - and the above mentioned support from third party commercial software vendors. How they are getting similar? The OpenSuSE "community-driven" silliness, even though they _know_ how long it took before the Fedora project got its act together. And now the standardisation on Gnome, where Redhat has several years head start, to the probable detriment of their KDE support. Bjørn -- Bjørn Tore Sund Phone: (+47) 555-84894 Stupidity is like a System administrator Fax: (+47) 555-89672 fractal; universal and Math. Department Mobile: (+47) 918 68075 infinitely repetitive. University of Bergen VIP: 81724 Support: system@mi.uib.no Contact: teknisk@mi.uib.no Direct: bjornts@mi.uib.no

On Wednesday 09 November 2005 11:39 am, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

On Wednesday 09 November 2005 10:51 am, Jerry Feldman wrote:

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Fedora over SuSE because of misinformation.

Do you know what shelf space is? I grew up in retailing with my first job in a discount store when I was 15.

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But there are 2 different distros here, SLES and SuSE Linux. SuSE Linux, like Fedora, is intended for the desktop where SLES is intended as an enterprise server.

That is not my understanding of the comments made by the Novell exec quoted in the article recently posted here. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1679393,00.asp (Oct 18) "Contrary to earlier reports, the Waltham, Mass.-based Novell has changed its plans and will not release a "best of breed" Linux desktop that combines the best features from the GNOME and KDE environments, said Ted Haeger, the Linux Desktop's director of marketing. Instead, users will be offered an option for either KDE or GNOME during the installation process".

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp (Nov. 5th) "Enterprise desktops, however, have been moving toward GNOME". "Greg Mancusi-Ungaro, Novell Inc.'s director of marketing for Linux and open source, said, "Novell has a Linux desktop leadership position with NLD [Novell Linux Desktop] and SuSE 10, and we intend to keep the pedal down hard." The bottom line is that at least for the desktop systems (like SuSE 10) we should be able to get both KDE and GNOME. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

On Wednesday 09 November 2005 2:18 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Jerry Feldman [11-09-05 14:13]:

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The bottom line is that at least for the desktop systems (like SuSE 10) we should be able to get both KDE and GNOME.

DO you have _some_ indication that you will not? None. It seems that Kurt Pfeifle, who is quoted in the article thinks that SuSE is going to drop KDE, and there is no indication that it will not be available on future SuSE distros. DO you have an argument, or are you just ranting(tm)? I am not ranting. I'm stating an opinion that I would prefer to see a wide range of choices (KDE, GNOME, FVWM, Window Maker, ICE, ...) all available in the future as they are now. I paid for SuSE 10 (although I had a free copy of the CD set). My opinion is: "Neither KDE nor GNOME should be the default, but let the user chose during installation". While the user can chose today, KDE is the default. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

On Wednesday 09 November 2005 4:37 pm, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Jerry Feldman [11-09-05 14:43]:

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None. It seems that Kurt Pfeifle, who is quoted in the article thinks that SuSE is going to drop KDE, and there is no indication that it will not be available on future SuSE distros.

and 'Kurt Pfeifle' is an ??expert??. I believe that if you look further, you will find that his article has one true statement and the rest is garbage. Novell is making gnome the default (keyword default) on installs of it's commercial products, SLES and NLD. That was a true statement. The rest of his article is _opinion_, and not well founded.

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DO you have an argument, or are you just ranting(tm)?

I am not ranting. I'm stating an opinion that I would prefer to see a wide range of choices (KDE, GNOME, FVWM, Window Maker, ICE, ...) all available in the future as they are now. I paid for SuSE 10 (although I had a free copy of the CD set). My opinion is: "Neither KDE nor GNOME should be the default, but let the user chose during installation". While the user can chose today, KDE is the default.

You are entitled to your opinion. Most everyone has one of those and one of something else. Equate.

Usually (another keyword) when two or more choices are presented, one is made default. You are not forced to chose default, or to like the choice, or to agree with the author's presentation.

If you were to use another distro based on your _opinion_ present above, your sanity would be suspect and you would be performing on a level with Mr pfeifle (lowercase intentional).

Equate!

btw, you _do_ have the choice to not install a window-manager on the first go-around, then install the window-manager of your choice later.

ps: your method of quoting w/o leaving a space between your statements and the OP's is *very* difficult to read. (my opinion)! I am quoting.

Basically, I was responding to either you or Stephen. IMHO, SuSE is the best of the distros, which is why I pay for it. I quoted "pfeifle" only to mention the rumor he stated. It is the statements that Ted Haeger made that I tend to belive. But, my point about setting up a number of radio buttons, you do not need to define a default. Just require the user to chose one. When you vote for a candidate, there is no default. They could make either the default as long as the choices are simple and straightforward to the user, especially to the new user. The problem here is that KDE vs. GNOME is similar to the vi vs. EMACS. It is a religion. Right now I have both running with the KDM. Linux is about choices, so give the user the choices up front in a small radio button choice. The issue in the installer is how the choices are presented. They are presented today under the package selections line where if you want to change you must go into package selections. That works fine for me, but not for some guy coming from Windows. I don't care if GNOME is the one on top with the default or KDE is the one on top with the default. The issue is to give an outward choice to the new user. -- Jerry Feldman Linux Expertise Center (PTAC-MA/TX) Hewlett-Packard Co. 200 Forest Street MRO1-3/K12 Marlborough, MA 01752-3081 508-467-4315 (http://www.testdrive.hp.com)

"Contrary to earlier reports, the Waltham, Mass.-based Novell has changed its plans and will not release a "best of breed" Linux desktop that combines the best features from the GNOME and KDE environments, said Ted Haeger, the Linux Desktop's director of marketing. Instead, users will be offered an option for either KDE or GNOME during the installation process". well, I had just upgraded to SUSE 10.0, using KDE. This got me to wonder about Gnome, so I logged in using gnome desktop. just for grins I tried to run evolution, but it said evolution was not installed. AND

On Wed November 9 2005 2:10 pm, Jerry Feldman wrote: the button on the system tray that said evolution didn't work. It also had a command of evolution-2.0 . After running smart upgrade ( running YaST and installing evolution failed, evolution still bombed) it upgraded evolution, and by changing the system tray icon preference to run the command evolution, it WORKED. I still like kmail better ( I'm used to it) BUT, I did notice that the apps started faster, I would have to think that KDE is much more of a resource hog than gnome, just on a cursory look.. BUT I am still more comfortable running KDE. I guess KDE is more Windoze like, slow and bloated :) -- Paul Cartwright Registered Linux user # 367800